How Merkel Failed Greece and Europe

[Deleted]

http://www.economist...obal_debt_clock

Denmark has 47,1 % debt of GDP

Edit: I won`t say much about Denmark since I don`t have any information on her nor did I do any research about her economic policies and situation, but as far as I know she doesn't have the euro.

BTW: Greece annual debt-change -17 % almost 20 % but not just the debt decreases also the GDP does so basically it is useless if you have 0 % debt and o% economy, and that is exactly what is happening in Greece thanks to austerity . And don`t forget the GDP shrunk that is why the percentage of debt increased.

Edited July 11, 2015 by hellwyr

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

I get my information from the National Bank of Denmark and it shows that our government debt was 24 % of GDP in 2014. http://www.nationalb...er/default.aspx

Our government is currently running a surplus so we are reducing debt, as the following graph from Danmarks Nationalbank (National Bank of Denmark) shows:

Maybe you numbers include non-government debt ?

Edited July 11, 2015 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Deleted]

I get my information from the National Bank of Denmark and it shows that our government debt was 24 % of GDP in 2014. http://www.nationalb...er/default.aspx

Maybe you numbers include non-government debt ?

Since I do not speak danish I can't read it.

http://www.nationald...btclock/denmark

And all other sites I find say denmark has about 50 %

Found your site in English

Here is a chart from the world bank where it says Denmark central government debt is about 47 % in 2012, so I am not sure why the site you provided states 27 %

http://data.worldban...GD.ZS/countries

Edited July 11, 2015 by hellwyr

[Thanato]

You know what, we should just hit the reset button and wipe out debt, since debt is really a figment of our imagination.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

As far as I can see your numbers only counts debt, while the numbers from the Danish National Bank counts the public debt, minus assets. Isn't that a more reasonable way to do it ?

Like I said earlier we are running at a surplus at the moments, so why does the clock show our debt increasing ? I don't think it is quite accurate !

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that we more than halved our debt in a decade, so it is possible to do it !

Edited July 11, 2015 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

Since I do not speak danish I can't read it.

http://www.nationald...btclock/denmark

And all other sites I find say denmark has about 50 %

Found your site in English

Here is a chart from the world bank where it says Denmark central government debt is about 47 % in 2012, so I am not sure why the site you provided states 27 %

http://data.worldban...GD.ZS/countries

As far as I can see your numbers only counts debt, while the numbers from the Danish National Bank counts the public debt, minus assets.

Like I said earlier we are running at a surplus at the moments, so why does the clock show our debt increasing ? I don't think it is quite accurate !

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that we more than halved our debt in a decade, so it is possible to do it, if the political will is there. But the longer you wait the more painful it will get !

[Deleted]

As far as I can see your numbers only counts debt, while the numbers from the Danish National Bank counts the public debt, minus assets. Isn't that a more reasonable way to do it ?

Like I said earlier we are running at a surplus at the moments, so why does the clock show our debt increasing ? I don't think it is quite accurate !

Anyway the point I was trying to make is that we more than halved our debt in a decade, so it is possible to do it !

because of compound interest it is probably increasing. If you minus assets it is not quite accurate, because the assets are part of the GDP so if you minus them you get a wrong picture.

[questionmark]

As far as I can see your numbers only counts debt, while the numbers from the Danish National Bank counts the public debt, minus assets.

Which happens to be another way to calculate yourself happy.... just like growth, they (that is, about every country) never take the inflation into consideration.

[Leonardo]

http://www.economist...obal_debt_clock

Denmark has 47,1 % debt of GDP

Edit: I won`t say much about Denmark since I don`t have any information on her nor did I do any research about her economic policies and situation, but as far as I know she doesn't have the euro.

The currency a country uses is largely irrelevant to it's indebtedness, or propensity to slide further into debt. Rather than blame the currency, look at the fiscal policy operated by the various govts to understand why a particular nation is more inclined to indebtedness than another.

[Deleted]

The currency a country uses is largely irrelevant to it's indebtedness, or propensity to slide further into debt. Rather than blame the currency, look at the fiscal policy operated by the various govts to understand why a particular nation is more inclined to indebtedness than another.

the currency is important since if you have your own national-bank and currency you have instruments to combat crisis which fit in with your region.

Edited July 11, 2015 by hellwyr

[questionmark]

the currency is important since if you have your own national-bank and currency you have instruments to combat crisis which fit in with your region.

The problem is you don't, the markets determine the value of your currency, there where the government does you have a vast black currency trading market and trading problems.

[Deleted]

The problem is you don't, the markets determine the value of your currency, there where the government does you have a vast black currency trading market and trading problems.

We can discuss all you want, but it is a fact that a national bank(which is private btw, not government owned) has its instruments, which I am not going to elaborate here, since you easily can look them up on the internet. Of course the national bank has its limits, but that is a given.

[Leonardo]

the currency is important since if you have your own national-bank and currency you have instruments to combat crisis which fit in with your region.

And you are presuming that "national banks" - also known as "central banks" - and the nation they serve both jointly "own" the currency that nation uses?

Think again. The majority of "national banks" either are or rely on privately-owned institutions (e.g. the Federal Reserve in the US) from which the govt of a nation may borrow money in exchange for securities. In other words - they accumulate debt.

As I said, the currency any particular nation uses is largely irrelevant to it's level of indebtedness - despite your intimation that somehow, using the euro as a currency means naturally acquiring more debt than a 'native' currency.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Leonardo

[Deleted]

And you are presuming that "national banks" - also known as "central banks" - and the nation they serve both jointly "own" the currency that nation uses?

Think again. The majority of "national banks" either are or rely on privately-owned institutions (e.g. the Federal Reserve in the US) from which the govt of a nation may borrow money in exchange for securities. In other words - they accumulate debt.

As I said, the currency any particular nation uses is largely irrelevant to it's level of indebtedness - despite your intimation that somehow, using the euro as a currency means naturally acquiring more debt than a 'native' currency.

yep in the context of Greece it exactly means that. Since she doesn't have any measures to combat a crisis, she can't devalue her currency by printing money for example. She wouldn't have become a net-importer, she could have boosted tourism for example and export in general. She wouldn't have to rely on borrowing since she could have influenced her economy better. Also she didn't have to resort to austerity which is in her case is the worst measure, since it destroys her GDP further.

[questionmark]

yep in the context of Greece it exactly means that. Since she doesn't have any measures to combat a crisis, she can't devalue her currency by printing money for example. She wouldn't have become a net-importer, she could have boosted tourism for example and export in general. She wouldn't have to rely on borrowing since she could have influenced her economy better. Also she didn't have to resort to austerity which is in her case is the worst measure, since it destroys her GDP further.

Greece can devalue its currency all it wants, those debts are in dollars, euros and pounds and the creditors expect dollars, euros and pounds, not monopoly money.

[Deleted]

Greece can devalue its currency all it wants, those debts are in dollars, euros and pounds and the creditors expect dollars, euros and pounds, not monopoly money.

As mentioned in my post and to summarize it again:

1.She wouldn't have accumulated so much debt

2. Her GDP wouldn't have shrunk, instead it might have even grown

3. Thus her credit rating would have been much better

Those would have been the effects of having a national bank and not being in the monetary union for Greece.

Edited July 11, 2015 by hellwyr

[questionmark]

As mentioned in my post and to summarize it again:

1.She wouldn't have accumulated so much debt

2. Her GDP wouldn't have shrunk, instead it might have even grown

3. Thus her credit rating would have been much better

Those would have been the effects of having a national bank and not being in the monetary union for Greece.

Under \2\, they would have calculated themselves happy, because having more monopoly money has not increased anything. All it makes is bigger wads in the pocket.

[Deleted]

you know that all money is monopoly money. Anyway it is nothing new what I wrote, go ahead and read some articles about monetary instruments and their effects, als effects on export import, and how export and import influances the GDP. Also competivness of currencies. I am not you economic teacher, it is up to you to educate yoirself.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

Most of the loans that a country takes are repaid over a number of years, so if you are able to repay those loans without taking new loans to do so, it is quite possible to bring down your debt by a significant amount. As long as you don't have to take new loans to cover the old ones, you should be fine after a number of years. Basically if you spend less than you earn the debt will fall in the long term, as the old loans are repaid.

While we can disagree on many things, does anybody disagree with the premise that I used in this post ?

I am not saying it is easy (It isn't), but Hellwyr claimed that it was impossible to break the debt spiral and I disagreed, using my own country as an example of a country that did just that.

I know that it is virtually impossible for Greece to do so, because of their rapidly shrinking economy, but for most other countries it is possible.

Edit: I won`t say much about Denmark since I don`t have any information on her nor did I do any research about her economic policies and situation, but as far as I know she doesn't have the euro.

We do not have the Euro, we have danske kroner (DKK).

Edited July 11, 2015 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Deleted]

While we can disagree on many things, does anybody disagree with the premise that I used in this post ?

I am not saying it is easy (It isn't), but Hellwyr claimed that it was impossible to break the debt spiral and I disagreed, using my own country as an example of a country that did just that.

I know that it is virtually impossible for Greece to do so, because of their rapidly shrinking economy, but for most other countries it is possible.

We do not have the Euro, we have danske kroner (DKK).

I don`t think it is generally impossible, but in my opinion there is a point of no return, because of the compound interest.

Edited July 11, 2015 by hellwyr

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

do you seriously believe that any country which have so much debt that includes like 80 percent of Europe and the USA will ever be able to repay their debt .. lel. The system isn`t built that way, it is not possible to repay your debt if it reached a certain amount, which it has reached a long time ago. If you demand from the USA she shoulder repay her debt right now, she couldnt the same goes for most countries.

I was replying to your post here.

I don`t think it is generally impossible, but in my opinion there is a point of no return, because of the compound interest.

If I misunderstood you I am sorry and it seems that we are basically in agreement anyway.

Greece have passed the point of no return, but for countries like the US it is still very much possible to reduce their debt, as was the case in the late 90's, but it will require some unpopular choices, like cutbacks and/or raising taxes.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Leonardo]

yep in the context of Greece it exactly means that. Since she doesn't have any measures to combat a crisis, she can't devalue her currency by printing money for example. She wouldn't have become a net-importer, she could have boosted tourism for example and export in general. She wouldn't have to rely on borrowing since she could have influenced her economy better. Also she didn't have to resort to austerity which is in her case is the worst measure, since it destroys her GDP further.

Greece not having control over the valuation of the euro mattered not a jot to how they got in debt. Neither would Greece having it's own currency have 'saved it' from getting so far into debt, or having as much trouble paying that debt off.

Whether a nation has it's own currency, or uses a 'regional currency' like the euro, makes no difference to whether that country is a net importer or net exporter. Greece became a net importer because the Greek people desired commodities that Greek industry doesn't manufacture, or hasn't the raw material to manufacture from. That has nothing to do with the currency Greece uses.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Leonardo

[Harry_Dresden]

I don`t think it is generally impossible, but in my opinion there is a point of no return, because of the compound interest.

Hellwye, the point of no return has not only been passed but is about to be surpassed by another 100 billion euro debt on top of the mountainous 320 billion. If it wasn't so serious I'd be laughing my **** off at the sheer incompetence of Merkel, Schauble, the previous Greek governments and the EU as a whole.

Seriously the Germans and their lackeys need to take a time out and re-evaluate and re-institute a debt relief program now that Greece has balanced its books. And stop with the vindictive plan to control Greece.

More debt on top of more debt is getting silly. I think the Greek PM is the only one that has a plan i.e. showcasing the futility of not forgiving and cancelling debt.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

You know what, we should just hit the reset button and wipe out debt, since debt is really a figment of our imagination.

Declare one day "debt abolition day" and all standing debts, from student loans, to home loans etc are declared void from that day forward any debt accrued is to be paid as normal but any past debt utterly forgotten?

It'd stimulate the global economy for one thing.

[Leonardo]

Hellwye, the point of no return has not only been passed but is about to be surpassed by another 100 billion euro debt on top of the mountainous 320 billion. If it wasn't so serious I'd be laughing my **** off at the sheer incompetence of Merkel, Schauble, the previous Greek governments and the EU as a whole.

Seriously the Germans and their lackeys need to take a time out and re-evaluate and re-institute a debt relief program now that Greece has balanced its books. And stop with the vindictive plan to control Greece.

More debt on top of more debt is getting silly. I think the Greek PM is the only one that has a plan i.e. showcasing the futility of not forgiving and cancelling debt.

The Greek govt can cancel all their debt - they just have to declare bankruptcy.

Of course, there will be consequences to that, probably very painful consequences, but why should it be up to the rest of the world to forgive Greece's debt rather than Greece pay for it's own mistakes?