How Merkel Failed Greece and Europe

[questionmark]

The Greek govt can cancel all their debt - they just have to declare bankruptcy.

Of course, there will be consequences to that, probably very painful consequences, but why should it be up to the rest of the world to forgive Greece's debt rather than Greece pay for it's own mistakes?

I said it a few times before, There will be a debt relief of some kind. Either a substantial cut or the payment target will be set to the Saint Never-Comes day. But not before the Greeks get their house in order else in two years we will be exactly where we are now.

[Leonardo]

I said it a few times before, There will be a debt relief of some kind. Either a substantial cut or the payment target will be set to the Saint Never-Comes day. But not before the Greeks get their house in order else in two years we will be exactly where we are now.

I doubt there will be a haircut, but a rescheduling is quite probable.

And yes, the Greeks getting their house in order should be a prerequisite, not least reforming their taxation policy.

[Deleted]

The Greek govt can cancel all their debt - they just have to declare bankruptcy.

Of course, there will be consequences to that, probably very painful consequences, but why should it be up to the rest of the world to forgive Greece's debt rather than Greece pay for it's own mistakes?

It has been discussed more than enough why their should be a debt relief. Because it is a UNION, and because Greece wouldn't be in this situation if she wasn't part of the EUROPEAN UNION.

Edited July 12, 2015 by hellwyr

[Leonardo]

It has been discussed more than enough why their should be a debt relief. Because it is a UNION, and because Greece wouldn't be in this situation if she wasn't part of the EUROPEAN UNION.

Rubbish.

Being part of the EU, or a member of the eurozone, has no bearing on the behaviour of Greece's govts past and present with respect how they spend the money they earn in revenue. If what you claim was true, then all EU nations would be in the same situation as Greece, but they aren't.

Because there has recently been a severe recession many nations have had to make cutbacks and debt has risen in most economies - even the healthy ones. But again, this is nothing to do with EU membership.

[Harry_Dresden]

The Greek govt can cancel all their debt - they just have to declare bankruptcy.

Of course, there will be consequences to that, probably very painful consequences, but why should it be up to the rest of the world to forgive Greece's debt rather than Greece pay for it's own mistakes?

In 2010 the then Greek PM wanted to put the original euro bailout to a referendum. Merkel and Sarkozy engineered PM Papandreou down fall as punishment for jeopardising the euro... reason being that a Greek default would have crippled the euro. The euro was unprepared for wearing a massive default and basically Greece has been a shield used by the Germans to protect their currency. In essence Greece was a sacrifice and still is... The Eurozone has benefited from Greece's demise. Whether the Germans do the right thing is entirely up to them BUT consider that it wasn't that long ago that the world and in particular Europe wrote off 50% of German wartime debt and instituted the Marshall plan to help the German people.

Ultimately the Greeks are to blame but stringing along a people with a useless toxic bailout plan and then putting more and more conditions and obstacles in its path defeats the purpose of having a common currency in the first place. Anyway, Greece will default and the Gemans will have won control of the EU's purse strings and defacto control of the EU.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[Harry_Dresden]

Rubbish.

Being part of the EU, or a member of the eurozone, has no bearing on the behaviour of Greece's govts past and present with respect how they spend the money they earn in revenue. If what you claim was true, then all EU nations would be in the same situation as Greece, but they aren't.

Because there has recently been a severe recession many nations have had to make cutbacks and debt has risen in most economies - even the healthy ones. But again, this is nothing to do with EU membership.

Not sure what you mean by saying that Greece's behaviour has been to blame these last 5 years. Hell if the EU had such a problem with Greece then why didn't they kick Greece out of the euro in 2009? Would have been easier and less time consuming... The truth is they needed Greece to buy them time and now that they don't need them anymore the Germans are getting all sanctimonious and chit trying to rid themselves of a fellow member. Bullchit!

[Deleted]

Also Greece cut 100000 public jobs, sold their land to foreign investors, bailed out German and french investors, increased the pension age, cut pensions, cut welfare and education. They actually did what the EU wanted, o and look their GDP shrunk

Also as already mentioned they could have combated the crisis with financial instruments if they had their own currency, could have competed with northern countries in export...etc but some people want to act ignorant and also believe that in a union one has the right to punish another, that is not a union it is imperialism

Edited July 12, 2015 by hellwyr

[Harry_Dresden]

I doubt there will be a haircut, but a rescheduling is quite probable.

And yes, the Greeks getting their house in order should be a prerequisite, not least reforming their taxation policy.

I don't think a haircut will be a issue anymore. Greece will default and if their government is smart they will default from the debt and p*** on Merkels charity, give Europe the middle finger and if Cameron wasn't such a softcock and France so ***** whiped they'd just dump the EU charade and shove off too.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[stevewinn]

Rubbish.

Being part of the EU, or a member of the eurozone, has no bearing on the behaviour of Greece's govts past and present with respect how they spend the money they earn in revenue. If what you claim was true, then all EU nations would be in the same situation as Greece, but they aren't.

Because there has recently been a severe recession many nations have had to make cutbacks and debt has risen in most economies - even the healthy ones. But again, this is nothing to do with EU membership.

you say rubbish, But thats not the case, Being part of the EU and Eurozone there are rules you have to abide, in this case the Eurozone there are financial rules, such as EU economic reform, but more importantly in this case the stability and growth pact. When Greece was going off the rails where was the EU/ECB in their fiscal monitoring of the situation? The frame work exists to even place sanctions on Eurozone countries when they ignore the rules.

You can sum up this crisis up in one world. - Disaster- If Greece was an independent country from the EU, and the IMF was allowed to take the lead, Greece would have been on the path to recovery. Its very telling that the first developed Western economy/country to ever default on its IMF debt was Greece a European Member.

There is no mechanism to kick anyone out of the Eurozone as it stands without a new treaty, or treaty amendment, If Greece chooses to stay it can cause a major headache. seeing how Germany and especially Finland is against another bailout, the saga continues.

How long before the USA start intervening - knocking on the EU's door telling them to get their **** together.

[Harry_Dresden]

Also Greece cut 100000 public jobs, sold their land to foreign investors, bailed out German and french investors, increased the pension age, cut pensions, cut welfare and education. They actually did what the EU wanted, o and look their GDP shrunk

Also as already mentioned they could have combated the crisis with financial instruments if they had their own currency, could have competed with northern countries in export...etc but some people want to act ignorant and also believe that in a union one has the right to punish another, that is not a union it is imperialism

Was watching Sky news today and they mentioned that 10,000 people have committed suicide cause of financial hardship these last couple of years... Absolutely disgraceful that Merkel has the cheek to even mention putting more unneeded hardship on these people.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[Harry_Dresden]

you say rubbish, But thats not the case, Being part of the EU and Eurozone there are rules you have to abide, in this case the Eurozone there are financial rules, such as EU economic reform, but more importantly in this case the stability and growth pact. When Greece was going off the rails where was the EU/ECB in their fiscal monitoring of the situation? The frame work exists to even place sanctions on Eurozone countries when they ignore the rules.

You can sum up this crisis up in one world. - Disaster- If Greece was an independent country from the EU, and the IMF was allowed to take the lead, Greece would have been on the path to recovery. Its very telling that the first developed Western economy/country to ever default on its IMF debt was Greece a European Member.

There is no mechanism to kick anyone out of the Eurozone as it stands without a new treaty, or treaty amendment, If Greece chooses to stay it can cause a major headache. seeing how Germany and especially Finland is against another bailout, the saga continues.

How long before the USA start intervening - knocking on the EU's door telling them to get their **** together.

Yeah Finland finally found a platform and a voice to let the world know that it exists. Sure that Merkel will throw the crumbs off her table to the faithful Finns.

[Deleted]

Was watch Sky news today and they mentioned that 10,000 people have committed suicide cause of financial hardship these last couple of years... Absolutely disgraceful that Merkel has the cheek to even mention putting more unneeded hardship on these people.

The Greek people should say "**** you" and take their destiny into their own hands. You know in Germany the people also got a lot of cuts, the wages shrunk, now there a 1 € jobs which people do to survive. On the paper it looks like Germany has a good economy but in fact she hasn't, if you consider the well being of the people. And the poor are getting poorer, and the middle-class is decreasing. You can have the best economy in the world if it isn't beneficial to the people, I don't see an achievement in having a "good" economy. And Merkel wants to force that system onto Europe. (while also ignoring the regional characteristics)

http://europesworld.org/2015/02/23/germanys-sickly-economy/#.VaJa4_nJ4UM

Edited July 12, 2015 by hellwyr

[Harry_Dresden]

The Greek people should say "**** you" and take their destiny into their own hands. You know in Germany the people also got a lot of cuts, the wages shrunk, now there a 1 ¤ jobs which people do to survive. On the paper it looks like Germany has a good economy but in fact she hasn't, if you consider the well being of the people. And the poor are getting poorer, and the middle-class is decreasing. You can have the best economy in the world if it isn't beneficial to the people, I don't see an achievement in having a "good" economy. And Merkel wants to force that system onto Europe. (while also ignoring the regional characteristics)

Somewhere along the path to becoming the empress of Europe, Merkel lost her heart and now want's to turn Europe into one big factory paying next to nothing while at the same time ripping the guts outta European social rights and living standard. I mean seriously paying Chinese wages for Europe is just not cricket.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[Leonardo]

In 2010 the then Greek PM wanted to put the original euro bailout to a referendum. Merkel and Sarkozy engineered PM Papandreou down fall as punishment for jeopardising the euro... reason being that a Greek default would have crippled the euro.

Again, rubbish.

It's possible that if Germany, France and Italy all defaulted the euro would sink, but a default by Greece would not have that effect. Sure, it would cause market ripples for a while which, in 2009 and with the recession in full bloom would have prolonged the agony of recession for many EU members - but it would certainly not spell the end of the Euro as a currency.

Not sure what you mean by saying that Greece's behaviour has been to blame these last 5 years.

I was addressing the claim that Greece's woes are because of it's membership of the EU, and the eurozone. They are not. Greece's woes are the result of poor fiscal policy in Greece and for that neither the EU nor the euro share any blame.

There is so much anti-EU hyperbole/rhetoric being flung around by some of you to disguise the act you haven't a clue why Greece is in the position it's in. But it's good to have a "big government target" handy, isn't it - even if it's not to blame?

Edited July 12, 2015 by Leonardo

[stevewinn]

Again, rubbish.

It's possible that if Germany, France and Italy all defaulted the euro would sink, but a default by Greece would not have that effect. Sure, it would cause market ripples for a while which, in 2009 and with the recession in full bloom would have prolonged the agony of recession for many EU members - but it would certainly not spell the end of the Euro as a currency.

I was addressing the claim that Greece's woes are because of it's membership of the EU, and the eurozone. They are not. Greece's woes are the result of poor fiscal policy in Greece and for that neither the EU nor the euro share any blame.

There is so much anti-EU hyperbole/rhetoric being flung around by some of you to disguise the act you haven't a clue why Greece is in the position it's in. But it's good to have a "big government target" handy, isn't it - even if it's not to blame?

Never mind Anti-EU, even a Blind man can see that the single currency one size fits all was never going to work. The EU shoulders most of the blame it was EU who allowed Greece to join the Euro. every man and his dog knows the EU turned a blind eye, The Euro was to bring stability and growth, why worry about Greece's cooked books. If you reply and say the EU never knew what was going on and was totally deceived by the Greeks. then my god what a statement. in your opinion as a TRUE Europhile, The problem was not created by the EU - But can only be solved by the EU. spoken like a true EU apparatchik.

[Leonardo]

Never mind Anti-EU, even a Blind man can see that the single currency one size fits all was never going to work.

Why not?

Give me a reason that supports your claim, apart from your irrational fear of "big government".

The EU shoulders most of the blame it was EU who allowed Greece to join the Euro. every man and his dog knows the EU turned a blind eye, The Euro was to bring stability and growth, why worry about Greece's cooked books. If you reply and say the EU never knew what was going on and was totally deceived by the Greeks. then my god what a statement. in your opinion as a TRUE Europhile, The problem was not created by the EU - But can only be solved by the EU. spoken like a true EU apparatchik.

I've no doubt that, when Greece was previously offered bail-outs, those offering knew the reasons for the underlying weakness to Greece's economy - hence why conditions were attached to those bail-outs. Conditions the respective Greek govts never seriously implemented.

And of course the other members want the euro project to work - hence their rather sympathetic treatment towards Greece's plight in the past. But when you finally understand that kindness will not change the person (govt/country) it's time for being strict, and that is the stage Greece's fellow EU members find themselves in - having to be strict with a recalcritrant and immature people/govt.

[stevewinn]

Why not?

Give me a reason that supports your claim, apart from your irrational fear of "big government".

I've no doubt that, when Greece was previously offered bail-outs, those offering knew the reasons for the underlying weakness to Greece's economy - hence why conditions were attached to those bail-outs. Conditions the respective Greek govts never seriously implemented.

And of course the other members want the euro project to work - hence their rather sympathetic treatment towards Greece's plight in the past. But when you finally understand that kindness will not change the person (govt/country) it's time for being strict, and that is the stage Greece's fellow EU members find themselves in - having to be strict with a recalcritrant and immature people/govt.

I'll give you one example: Greece.

Its the perfect example, and highlights the problems with the single currency - the trouble with the EU they thought greater fiscal unity would bring or accelerate even closer political unity. in order for the single currency to work in the way the EU intended, it needs all the powers of a Federal Europe to prevent what we see happening today.

You cannot have the divergence of Nation state economies, the cost of living, the disparity in wages and expect a one size fits all to work. its just not logical, how can you have a one size fits all interest rate to cover all these varaibles. you cannot, without running into trouble, please c'mon, even an unconscious custard can see its not going to work. the cost of living between Germany and Slovakia is a staggering 104%, for example. the same 1 litre bottle of water in Germany is 82% dearer than in Slovakia, a loaf of bread is 76% - yet both are using the same currency and interest rate.

In the Early days of this economic crisis, the PIIGS were crying out for low interest rates, but that would have effected the richer northern Members. So the PIIGS were left to suffer and forced to take on more debt, as their economies faulted they were carrying out cuts, austerity measures at home yet the interest rate remained firmly where it suited Germany. just look at the time line of when the ECB changed the interest rate. the PIIGS struggled on for two damn years before the ECB lowered interest rates,- this coincided with the German economy starting to slow.

The PIIGS economies or debt levels from day one to today. Lets just see how your one size fits all interest rate with such differing economies works out in the coming months and years. no doubt when it fails you'll blame the individual countries.

Portugal, 68% of GDP, to 131.4% that's a 93.3% increase in debt level.

Ireland, 24.9% of GDP, to 114.8% that's a 361% increase in debt level.

Italy, 103.3% of GDP, to 131.8% that's a 27.2% increase in debt level.

Greece, 106% of GDP, to 176% that's a 66% increase in debt level.

Spain, 36% of GDP, to 96.8% that's a 168.8% increase in debt level.

put it into perspective, every baby born to day in (............) owes,

Portugal €24,450

Ireland €42,458

Italy €35,757

Greece €28,929

Spain €22,763

...........................and growing.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevewinn

[questionmark]

And what is the excuse of the UK for racking up a similar debt during that time?

let me guess, that they joined the pound?

The fact of the matter is that you are randomly pulling out some numbers of your hat without adding a timeline, in which you will notice that most of those countries, just as Britain racked up those debts after 2008, not after joining or leaving anything.

[stevewinn]

And what is the excuse of the UK for racking up a similar debt during that time?

let me guess, that they joined the pound?

The fact of the matter is that you are randomly pulling out some numbers of your hat without adding a timeline, in which you will notice that most of those countries, just as Britain racked up those debts after 2008, not after joining or leaving anything.

The UK is not comparable with the topic where discussing, how can it be when you have 19 countries sharing a single currency. as for the time line i used, i used the internationally recognised year of 2007.

As to your point about racking up debt after 2008, yes we all know the credit crisis caused a crash, the last time i checked we was discussing the pro's and con's of the eurozone and EU institutions and their ability to deal with that crisis - to fix or make worse the current crisis.

As for the United Kingdom. how many bailouts have we received in this credit crisis, in fact we've been bailing EU countries out, the UK can service its debt. and we just happen to be the fastest growing economy in the G7. not once but twice. - two years on the run baby. by years end we'll be the second biggest economy in Europe behind Germany. number one by 2020 How the hell have we achieved all this without being in the Eurozone. because this shouldn't be possible should it Questionmark! A rising tide doesn't rise them who don't have a boat, Europe is sinking - we are taking full advantage- with Sails set, It is the set of the sails, not the direction of the wind that determines which way we will go; onwards Boatswain.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevewinn

[questionmark]

The UK is not comparable with the topic where discussing, how can it be when you have 19 countries sharing a single currency. as for the time line i used, i used the internationally recognised year of 2007.

Naturally not, take off your anti-European glasses and quit the national pathos and things will look totally different.

[stevewinn]

Naturally not, take off your anti-European glasses and quit the national pathos and things will look totally different.

anti European Union if you please, as for glasses, im using binoculars the EU's so far back.

[Leonardo]

The UK is not comparable with the topic where discussing, how can it be when you have 19 countries sharing a single currency. as for the time line i used, i used the internationally recognised year of 2007.

As to your point about racking up debt after 2008, yes we all know the credit crisis caused a crash, the last time i checked we was discussing the pro's and con's of the eurozone and EU institutions and their ability to deal with that crisis - to fix or make worse the current crisis.

As qm pointed out, the credit crunch caused many nations to raise their borrowing and increase their debt. That had nothing to do with membership in the EU nor the eurozone - and being a member of those collectives did not make the situation any worse for any member. The only reasons some EU members raised debt more than others is the nature of their economy and/or the psychological 'comfort' of knowing their debt will be "buffered" by being a member of a much larger, financially healthier, organisation.

As for the United Kingdom. how many bailouts have we received in this credit crisis, in fact we've been bailing EU countries out, the UK can service its debt. and we just happen to be the fastest growing economy in the G7. not once but twice. - two years on the run baby. by years end we'll be the second biggest economy in Europe behind Germany. number one by 2020 How the hell have we achieved all this without being in the Eurozone. because this shouldn't be possible should it Questionmark! A rising tide doesn't rise them who don't have a boat, Europe is sinking - we are taking full advantage- with Sails set, It is the set of the sails, not the direction of the wind that determines which way we will go; onwards Boatswain.

The UK's economy is growing faster than other EU member nations largely due to the nature of what sectors of industry comprise it. Because the UK has a relatively large financial sector in comparison to other EU members the recovery from a crisis situation such as a market crunch means the UK's economy rebounds relatively quicker. However, that does not make that economy in any way "stronger" (it is simply more volatile because of it's exposure to market changes) nor does it mean that using the pound instead of the euro is in any way beneficial to the strength of that economy.

[Deleted]

Naturally not, take off your anti-European glasses and quit the national pathos and things will look totally different.

O the sweet national card, if the EU wanted to be a union she would have given Greece a debt relieve and wouldn't handle the crisis like this. So your argument is invalid, in fact as we have seen during this crisis, the Eu supports nationalism versus unity. For example if a region or a federal state within a country goes bankruptcy the state supports her and handles it as an internal affair. The EU theoretically is a Union, the countries are dependent of a central power, which makes laws, which are superior to national law, she is a monetary union and the MS are dependent on the central bank, but the EU ignores those facts and behaves as if all of a sudden every country stands for herself, and she plays the national card whenever it serves her neoliberal agenda.

You can`t have a union and at the same time be totally ignorant of that fact and behave as if all member-states are sovereign states when in fact they are more like a federal state.

Edited July 13, 2015 by hellwyr

[Harry_Dresden]

Again, rubbish.

It's possible that if Germany, France and Italy all defaulted the euro would sink, but a default by Greece would not have that effect. Sure, it would cause market ripples for a while which, in 2009 and with the recession in full bloom would have prolonged the agony of recession for many EU members - but it would certainly not spell the end of the Euro as a currency.

I was addressing the claim that Greece's woes are because of it's membership of the EU, and the eurozone. They are not. Greece's woes are the result of poor fiscal policy in Greece and for that neither the EU nor the euro share any blame.

There is so much anti-EU hyperbole/rhetoric being flung around by some of you to disguise the act you haven't a clue why Greece is in the position it's in. But it's good to have a "big government target" handy, isn't it - even if it's not to blame?

Greece's debt in 2009-2010 was largely in the hands of private creditors. If Greece had defaulted the markets and in particular the banks would have hit a downward spiral that would have collapsed the euro. You don't believe me then google it. Germany stepped in and restructured the debt creating governments and the ECB as the new creditors...

No one has ever argued that Greece is ultimately responsible... but the fact that the help from the Eurozone was based around providing more loans to Greece to pay off existing loans is sorta like giving a bankruptee multipurpose credit cards to pay off the previously maxed out ones. Frighten stupid and short sighted and not befitting a fellowship of nations.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[Mr.United_Nations]

So greece still in the union