How Merkel Failed Greece and Europe

[Leonardo]

So greece still in the union

For now - although the Tsipras govt still has to accept, and undertake, the reforms demanded as conditions of the new deal. They will be different to the reforms the Greek govt offered, if maybe only slightly.

Harry,

Greece's debt in 2009-2010 was largely in the hands of private creditors. If Greece had defaulted the markets and in particular the banks would have hit a downward spiral that would have collapsed the euro. You don't believe me then google it.

Pure speculation - like everything the market does. Sure, some people were talking that such a thing could happen - probably because there was money to be made by them if the EU members stepped in. Don't believe propaganda, believe facts and the fact is the euro didn't "collapse".

[Space Commander Travis]

So the mighty European Empire has forced its generosity on Greece yet again, despite them specifically voting against the EU forcing anything else on them.

So damn much for democracy then. How do the EU flag wavers here excuse that, then? Or doesn't it matter at all as long as the failed Common Currency can limp along for another week or so until the next crisis?

When are you going to realise that the EU is purely and simply a tyranny?

[Space Commander Travis]

What it's about is punishment, isn't it, for daring to threaten the stability of the Great European Empire. It's retribution, vindictiveness. Pure retribution against the people of Greece for threatening to weaken the Empire. Do you believe that having a Strong & Stable Empire is the most important thing, is the only thing that matters? Is it ok that the wishes of ordinary people be disregarded just as long as the EU remains Stable (and Strong)?

Why are you happy to say that the sooner the UK shoves off and stops whinging about the Great European Project the better, but you're so anxious to force small countries that were naive enough to join the Common Currency to do whatever the Empire demands of them because it's so essential that they remain part of the Great Common Currency? Did they deserve it because they knew what they were letting themselves in for when they joined, and if they didn't like it they should have punished their governments rather than whinging about the great Empire that only wants to help? Do you believe that democracy has any part in the EU, or is Strength and Stability the only important things?

[stevewinn]

So greece still in the union

of course they are, there was never no doubt, The European Union comes before (small) nation states, you cannot have the project undermined by just 10 million people. What you do, much like they did in the Roman empire you whip them back into line. Just look at the results though, the lesson to be learnt here, is when a country hands over its currency to a foreign power they're at the mercy of others. Greece is now paying the price and not just in monetary terms.

Once again History will rely on the UK to bring democracy back to Europe, We have to play our part by voting NO, in the coming UK referendum, the economic crisis winds will be blowing strong when we head to the polls. We vote to leave and within two years a £19.2 Billion pound blackhole opens up in the EU finances as one of its largest contributors leaves. Boom, the statement of the worlds fifth largest economy leaving the project cannot be underestimated, or dismissed but people on here will try, the message that sends out to the world, the Markets that no longer having confidence in the Union. All played out with a backdrop of a failing European Union and single Currency. Once we leave believe me others will follow, and the downfall of the German economy will soon follow, as they try to carry the burden of a failed economic zone. - Im sure the German people will not put up with such a scenario at that point its over. and consigned to the dustbin of history will the European Union.

[Harry_Dresden]

What it's about is punishment, isn't it, for daring to threaten the stability of the Great European Empire. It's retribution, vindictiveness. Pure retribution against the people of Greece for threatening to weaken the Empire. Do you believe that having a Strong & Stable Empire is the most important thing, is the only thing that matters? Is it ok that the wishes of ordinary people be disregarded just as long as the EU remains Stable (and Strong)?

Why are you happy to say that the sooner the UK shoves off and stops whinging about the Great European Project the better, but you're so anxious to force small countries that were naive enough to join the Common Currency to do whatever the Empire demands of them because it's so essential that they remain part of the Great Common Currency? Did they deserve it because they knew what they were letting themselves in for when they joined, and if they didn't like it they should have punished their governments rather than whinging about the great Empire that only wants to help? Do you believe that democracy has any part in the EU, or is Strength and Stability the only important things?

Yes I couldn't agree more, it's only about punishment for voting NO instead of YES and what better proof is there than the humiliating bailout terms that the vengeful Germans have imposed on Greece. But they could only do it by breaking their on rules on turning off the liquidity on Greek banks by the ECB even though the ECB was supposed to be a non partisan and independent entity. That's right. What more proof is needed that the Germans have a disproportionate influence and control on the euro and its financial mechanisms.

The ECB was supposed to support the Eurozone NOT German policy...they have blackmailed a nation into accepting more austerity cause if they didn't then the ECB was gonna destroy the Greek economy. This action has a name and that name is blackmail...so by this action it's safe to assume that France the other pillar of Europe will be looking over its shoulder and at Germany to curb German control over the ECB meaning that the Eurozone's days are numbered.

The first cracks in the empire have formed...

Edited July 13, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[Harry_Dresden]

Harry,

Pure speculation - like everything the market does. Sure, some people were talking that such a thing could happen - probably because there was money to be made by them if the EU members stepped in. Don't believe propaganda, believe facts and the fact is the euro didn't "collapse".

There is no speculation at all. Greece's debt was originally in the hands of banks and private entities and the risk to the Eurozone was great so Merkel bought time and Greece off with more debt this time ECB debt while she rolled the remainder back into Eurozone sovereign debt effectively sealing Greece's fate since its against the rules to forgive national debt...

You need to look at this objectively and see this bailout for what it was/is... nothing more than a German power play to take control of the EU using Greece as the excuse.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[questionmark]

O the sweet national card, if the EU wanted to be a union she would have given Greece a debt relieve and wouldn't handle the crisis like this. So your argument is invalid, in fact as we have seen during this crisis, the Eu supports nationalism versus unity. For example if a region or a federal state within a country goes bankruptcy the state supports her and handles it as an internal affair. The EU theoretically is a Union, the countries are dependent of a central power, which makes laws, which are superior to national law, she is a monetary union and the MS are dependent on the central bank, but the EU ignores those facts and behaves as if all of a sudden every country stands for herself, and she plays the national card whenever it serves her neoliberal agenda.

You can`t have a union and at the same time be totally ignorant of that fact and behave as if all member-states are sovereign states when in fact they are more like a federal state.

Right, we had that in 2010 and by 2011 they had as much debt as before. It is known that a debt reprieve without fundamental changes in the way Greece is run will just end the same way again.

[Space Commander Travis]

Right, we had that in 2010 and by 2011 they had as much debt as before. It is known that a debt reprieve without fundamental changes in the way Greece is run will just end the same way again.

Quite right, so why is that all the EU can think of, since it's so obvious to everyone who isn't anywhere near as highly paid as the EU's Financial Know It Alls?

[Leonardo]

There is no speculation at all. Greece's debt was originally in the hands of banks and private entities and the risk to the Eurozone was great so Merkel bought time and Greece off with more debt this time ECB debt while she rolled the remainder back into Eurozone sovereign debt effectively sealing Greece's fate since its against the rules to forgive national debt...

You need to look at this objectively and see this bailout for what it was/is... nothing more than a German power play to take control of the EU using Greece as the excuse.

This...

If Greece had defaulted the markets and in particular the banks would have hit a downward spiral that would have collapsed the euro.

...is the speculation I was referring to, which is why I mentioned the fact the euro did not "collapse". As I said, such speculation probably profited several major players in the fx (and/or bond) markets - more than enough reason to promote such speculation to the media and a gullible public.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Leonardo

[Space Commander Travis]

So the EU (and specifically Germany) pulled a fast one, then?, or as it's also known, tried to extort the smaller countries they wished to bully by using emotional blackmail threatening consequences that they knew wouldn't happen? The EU (and specifically germany) looks blacker and blacker with every single thing that its supporters say.

[Leonardo]

So the EU (and specifically Germany) pulled a fast one, then?, or as it's also known, tried to extort the smaller countries they wished to bully by using emotional blackmail threatening consequences that they knew wouldn't happen? The EU (and specifically germany) looks blacker and blacker with every single thing that its supporters say.

Where did I suggest that "major players in the fx/bond markets" were nations, let alone specifically EU nations?

[questionmark]

Quite right, so why is that all the EU can think of, since it's so obvious to everyone who isn't anywhere near as highly paid as the EU's Financial Know It Alls?

While you are whining about how unfair the Greeks are being treated you just omit the small fact that since 2010 they have been promising a lot and did hardly anything. They have promised to change 278 laws (that are most against EU rules anyway) to get the country back on track. Of those they actually changed less than 140 (in 5 years) and implemented 4 the others just changed in the books, those four are increase the retirement age, up the VAT, introduce a property tax and privatize some assets. All others that could have increased the revenue (like get the owed taxes from all deadbeats) were not implemented -- in fact the getting back taxes from the government clientele deadbeats were actively sabotaged (to the point that the guy in charge of the program quit in exasperation).

I find it but normal that given the past performance the rest of Europe only trusts Greece as far as they can throw it... and it is their own doing.

[Harry_Dresden]

After what transpired with Greece's new "deal" I would say that the Greeks were smart to delay aspects of the asphyxiating remedy the Germans and the IMF prescribed. If only 140 of the measures choked the chit outta Greece the entire 276 would have buried her.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Harry_Dresden

[questionmark]

After what transpired with Greece's new "deal" I would say that the Greeks were smart to delay aspects of the asphyxiating remedy the Germans and the IMF prescribed. If only 140 of the measures choked the chit outta Greece the entire 276 would have buried her.

If Greece does not like it Greece can get out of the hole itself... besides most of those things, like a land registry (that does not exist to this day in Greece) or the liberalization of establishment are EU standard.

[Harry_Dresden]

Yes Europe has set a shining example of modernising the Greek economy... Greece now finds itself on the edge of the abyss thanks to German threats to destroy the Greek banking system if they don't subscribe to German "help." Actually just saw an article were the German finance minister and the the Dutch are laughing and carrying on in the most demeaning manner after Greece's economic capitulation. I guess this is what you mean by European help?

[kartikg]

Greece government has let down it's citizens. Greeks had given a clear no vote yet government decided to accept German terms. From now on only Greece is responsible ..

[questionmark]

Greece government has let down it's citizens. Greeks had given a clear no vote yet government decided to accept German terms. From now on only Greece is responsible ..

Those were they middle ground more than German terms. The conditions were between Finland, which was "out at all cost" and France's "in no matter what it costs".

And I doubt it was "let down its citizens", 60% voted against it but 80% want to stay in the EU and Euro. And to stay in the EU and Euro there are rules. My bet is that 100% don't want the catastrophe as was developing in front of my eyes.

Edited July 13, 2015 by questionmark

[DieChecker]

I am still wondering what the Greeks spent all that military/defense money on?

If the Germans want to help recover some of that money, they need to move some industry to Greece. Exploit that unemployed workforce......

[Space Commander Travis]

While you are whining about how unfair the Greeks are being treated you just omit the small fact that since 2010 they have been promising a lot and did hardly anything. They have promised to change 278 laws (that are most against EU rules anyway) to get the country back on track. Of those they actually changed less than 140 (in 5 years) and implemented 4 the others just changed in the books, those four are increase the retirement age, up the VAT, introduce a property tax and privatize some assets. All others that could have increased the revenue (like get the owed taxes from all deadbeats) were not implemented -- in fact the getting back taxes from the government clientele deadbeats were actively sabotaged (to the point that the guy in charge of the program quit in exasperation).

I find it but normal that given the past performance the rest of Europe only trusts Greece as far as they can throw it... and it is their own doing.

Everyone knows that, except the Eu and its financial Institutions. So it's either dazzling incompetence or it's quite deliberate loan sharking that they keep throwing money at them. Which would you prefer? Which makes the European Empire look less bad? Knowingly criminal behaviour or simple incompetence? either way it's hardly a commendation of the European Empire is it.

[Space Commander Travis]

Good analogy I saw today that austerity is like the medieval physicians whose knowledge of medicine only went as far as bleeding the patient and if that didn't work, bleed some more, ad infinitum, until in the end it did cure the patient of what was wrong with them because there was no more patient. Which is something the the Uk's unqualified Chancellor, mr. George Osborne, can't seem to think beyond either. Although to be fair to him, he was on the News this morning saying that not a penny of UK money will be going towards this latest EU extortion.

[questionmark]

I am still wondering what the Greeks spent all that military/defense money on?

If the Germans want to help recover some of that money, they need to move some industry to Greece. Exploit that unemployed workforce......

For that the Greek administration would have to get act together. Just one little example: one of the Vets volunteering at the Animal Welfare Clinic has put in the paperwork to open her own practice 18 months ago, she still can't open. In fact, she had to hire a lawyer to get the government office in charge of Health Service to even acknowledge that they have received the paperwork.

I know of another case where a flour mill owner wants to expand his business, it took him years to get the permits just to extend the factory by 15%.

The whole thing is broken and no Greek government, to this date, was capable of fixing it.

[stevewinn]

Good analogy I saw today that austerity is like the medieval physicians whose knowledge of medicine only went as far as bleeding the patient and if that didn't work, bleed some more, ad infinitum, until in the end it did cure the patient of what was wrong with them because there was no more patient. Which is something the the Uk's unqualified Chancellor, mr. George Osborne, can't seem to think beyond either. Although to be fair to him, he was on the News this morning saying that not a penny of UK money will be going towards this latest EU extortion.

(Bold) They said much the same when the EU demanded £1.7Billion. and we paid. I wouldnt believe a thing the Tory party say with Europe they are very much a pro-EU party. its only a few rebels on the back benches who are anti-EU. Europe shout jump we say how high.

As for Greece #ThisIsACoup

Edited July 14, 2015 by stevewinn

[Harry_Dresden]

I am still wondering what the Greeks spent all that military/defense money on?

If the Germans want to help recover some of that money, they need to move some industry to Greece. Exploit that unemployed workforce......

I missed your response until now and I find the passage you wrote about the Germans getting their money back hilarious. The Germans can't get their money back with Greece cause the GDP debt ratio is at 177%... with this new bailout the Greek GDP to debt ratio goes up to 210%...

The French and Greeks have turned Germans unfair demands back onto Germany. Do you really think that this sad narrative is over or has it just begun? Debt relief is coming via Merkels vindictiveness.

[DieChecker]

What? Employing Greeks would help the Greeks. If it is a German owned business or a Greek owned one. Is there a Greek minimum wage? How does it compare to Germany?

[questionmark]

What? Employing Greeks would help the Greeks. If it is a German owned business or a Greek owned one. Is there a Greek minimum wage? How does it compare to Germany?

Horribly, German minimum wages is between 8.50 and 11.80 (depending on the job), in Greece it is 3.75.