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XenoFish

What makes you right?

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XenoFish

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

1)What exactly makes you right?

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

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OverSword

Since you obviously have faith that the "religiously devout individuals" are wrong and that you are right you should answer first. You should remove the stick first you don't seem too flexible with it inserted so deeply within your nether regions.

What makes you right or your feelings more legit?

Edited by OverSword
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owf

Don't know about all that, not being religious, but long ago I learned a serious piece of wisdom from a very religious person...

"It's better to be blessed (loved) than right."

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XenoFish

Either answer the questions or don't response. Simple choice. I want to know YOUR perspective on your faith and why you follow it, is that a problem?

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Bluefinger

Since you obviously have faith that the "religiously devout individuals" are wrong and that you are right you should answer first. You should remove the stick first you don't seem too flexible with it inserted so deeply within your nether regions.

What makes you right or your feelings more legit?

I think his questions are sincere and come from a real place. I will respond tomorrow unless I can't sleep tonight. Until then, may the Maker of this universe give us the words.

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OverSword

Can't agree with the whole "God didn't love me " part XF. More likely our selfish viewpoint of what love is makes it hard to know what love truly is and how it is expressed by our creator. Also I believe that our place in creation makes it impossible for us to see/know/comprehend the big picture, and it's supposed to be that way and any attempt to define or understand the ultimate purpose of existence is not possible because at this stage of our development it isn't relevant. It's not need to know. It's our small minded short sighted egos that make it seem unfair. We are children throwing a fit because our parents won't let us eat ice cream 3 meals a day and we don't have enough experience and knowledge to get that there is a perfectly good reason for that.

Some people will say "If there is a loving God how can he allow all of the injustice and terrible things in this world? Babies in Africa born and starving to death before they learn to crawl, earthquakes and tsunami's wiping entire villages off the map, people dying from cancer who have live perfectly healthy lives while others smoke for 90 years and die of old age" etc..... This seems very unfair to us from our perspective because we consider our lives very valuable. The reason I believe that this is actually fair or right is because this isn't our only incarnation. No single incarnation is important in itself. It's fair because in your next life you will be born in war torn Africa and die within weeks of birth, in the life after that you will be a father who's hearts desire is to earn enough to make you family want for nothing and send your kids to school so they can live well. The next you will be a rapist, after that a victim of rape, then a scholar, then a soldier, then Hitler, then Gandhi, and so on and so on.

Not one religion is good and right, rather all religions are good and right even when taken to the lengths of fanaticism, because they all contribute to the overall development of your being and teach it something it needed to know to move towards it's ultimate purpose. The same can be said not only for religion but for everything in existence that you go through and experience. It's like the old saying, don't curse the fire for burning you, rather thank it for teaching you that fire can burn you. These guys in ISIS that we are all revolted by are all learning something about themselves and the universe with every atrocity they commit as are people that live their lives charitably in the service of improving the world for others, as are we all, and no action is better or less important that another in the big scheme, whatever that may be. That's why Jesus told us that in the eyes of the Lord no sin is greater than another. Jesus, of course, got it.

It's your own selfish and impatient outlook that leads you to expect something to give you answers or make you feel better about yourself whether that be Christianity or Chaos Magic. It seems you went one extreme then another, maybe your lesson in this existence is moderation. Who can say? Nobody, because it's not our place or within our scope to do so except from a materialist view point which in the big picture might be a very inconsequential view point.

OK, time for more beer now.

Edited by OverSword
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Paranoid Android

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

Ok, let's see how we go!

1)What exactly makes you right? - Objectively, nothing that doesn't equally apply to every other person on the planet. Subjectively, I believe I am right and therefore that makes me right. Every person on the planet thinks they are right. Even you think you are right about your understanding of God and the universe. I mean, I know there are elements in my theology that are wrong, that's simply a case of human nature, no one can know everything perfectly. But as I study and grow I continue to learn more and more.

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives? - Without God, you cannot attain eternal life. I also believe that God created us to be in a relationship with him, and if a person truly turns their heart towards God they will become more fulfilled human beings, but I cannot/will not force someone to convert just to gain this fulfillment. People of all faiths and non-faiths have found a path that suits them, and I'll support them in that, but will be ready to share my own views if/when they ever ask me about mine or consider changing paths.

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real? - This is possibly the most important of the questions you've raised. Because in my eyes, there is no "may or may not be real" God is real, it's not a question of ifs or maybes. Though this is a broad comment about God in general, not the specific religion I follow. I took a leap of faith that the Bible God was the real God and in 15 years of life as a Christian I have had that choice confirmed and reaffirmed over and again, which in my mind justifies the choice I made. What motivated me to make the initial leap into Christianity, I'd probably say optimism. Just like anyone walks up to a beautiful woman and asks her on a date, there is the optimism that the woman will say yes, and then as the relationship develops and if they marry there is optimism that their marriage will be a lifelong one filled with happiness.

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons? - Everyone follows their faith (and non-faith) for personal reasons.

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise? - Then I'm screwed. Now to ask a a question back, if you don't mind. What if God IS God, the saviour of humanity through the Lord Jesus Christ? My guess is that you'll give the exact same answer as I did to God being a demon/devil.

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man. - I guess my only way to respond to this one is to say that I'm not practicing idolatry, since Jesus is God-made-flesh. If Jesus isn't God then I'm worshipping the wrong deity, and just like question 5, I guess I'm screwed.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd? - Of course not. How can I say in one sentence that I'm a worthless sinner who deserves death but praise God for forgiveness, and then in the next sentence look down my nose and say "I am superior to you sinful maggots". I am exactly the same as every human on the planet, no different. Being forgiven isn't something I earned, it was a free gift from God.

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures? Objectively, we go back to question 1 and say nothing. Subjectively, it is correct because I believe it to be so and have studied my faith for 15 years refining that belief into something that rings true throughout the good times and the bad.

Hope that helps :tu:

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android
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eight bits

PA

... Every person on the planet thinks they are right....

Well, within the religious domain, agnostics don't think they're right. In the bigger picture, all sorts of people who manage uncertainty do so without losing sight that they are uncertain. People who believe in the Pythagorean Theorem ought to think they are right about that, but on the things that usually get discussed here at UM's S v. S board, some people do maintian perspective about their own fallibility, even while advocating their opinions.

Without God, you cannot attain eternal life.

Good come back, but the issue is whether anybody attains "eternal life," assuming you mean "unending personal persistence" (eternal also means something else in the religious context, and some Christians teach you need Jesus for that, too, but I sense you didn't mean that.)

In many religions (and typical of the Indo-European polytheisms, a category still vigorously represented within the Hindu fold), the gods themselves do not have unending life. Nobody feels sorry for them about that. Maybe more important, they do not feel sorry for themselves about that. Many religions also lack a personal afterlife altogether.

What if God IS God, the saviour of humanity through the Lord Jesus Christ? My guess is that you'll give the exact same answer as I did...

That was addressed to Xeno, not to me, but I might surprise you. Swedenborg, as much a Christian as anybody (now buried in Lutheran consecrated ground, after a heresy trial that adjourned sine die, meaning he won), proposed that God is actually serious and adult about this salvation business. After death, the requisite decision is made by people who are in possession of all the relevant facts.

I don' know whether or not Swedenborg's idea is true, but it is not the behavior I would expect of a "demon." Oddly, it is what I would expect from a benevolent salvific agent.

I'm not practicing idolatry, since Jesus is God-made-flesh.

A fine example of an idolatrous belief. Your defense to Xeno might better be that some of what has sometimes been called idolatry turns out, in your opinion, to be true. Lucky he didn't ask about polytheism, in which case your best answer is, "It depends on who's doing the counting."

Edited by eight bits
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Paranoid Android
name='eight bits' timestamp='1436607317' post='5578216']

PA[/b]

Well, within the religious domain, agnostics don't think they're right. In the bigger picture, all sorts of people who manage uncertainty do so without losing sight that they are uncertain. People who believe in the Pythagorean Theorem ought to think they are right about that, but on the things that usually get discussed here at UM's S v. S board, some people do maintian perspective about their own fallibility, even while advocating their opinions.

I'd considered this when I wrote my previous statement. I maintain my position. Agnostics believe that it is impossible to know whether there is or is not a God therefore choose neither camp. Their belief that it is impossible to know whether God exists or not clashes with my belief that God exists and an atheist's position that God does not exist, yet they believe they have chosen the right path in their approach to God. Just because that belief is that of unknowing doesn't change that they still believe their choice is the right one to make.

Good come back, but the issue is whether anybody attains "eternal life," assuming you mean "unending personal persistence" (eternal also means something else in the religious context, and some Christians teach you need Jesus for that, too, but I sense you didn't mean that.)

In many religions (and typical of the Indo-European polytheisms, a category still vigorously represented within the Hindu fold), the gods themselves do not have unending life. Nobody feels sorry for them about that. Maybe more important, they do not feel sorry for themselves about that. Many religions also lack a personal afterlife altogether.

I meant it in the sense of "forever".

That was addressed to Xeno, not to me, but I might surprise you. Swedenborg, as much a Christian as anybody (now buried in Lutheran consecrated ground, after a heresy trial that adjourned sine die, meaning he won), proposed that God is actually serious and adult about this salvation business. After death, the requisite decision is made by people who are in possession of all the relevant facts.

I don' know whether or not Swedenborg's idea is true, but it is not the behavior I would expect of a "demon." Oddly, it is what I would expect from a benevolent salvific agent.

While I might perhaps agree with Swedenborg when it comes to those who haven't heard of Jesus at all, I do not agree with his views and suggest that "it is everyone's right to die once, and then after death, face judgement" (you probably recognise this as a quote from Romans, from memory around the chapter 5-6 mark, but I'm not in the mood to go and search the exact quote).

A fine example of an idolatrous belief. Your defense to Xeno might better be that some of what has sometimes been called idolatry turns out, in your opinion, to be true. Lucky he didn't ask about polytheism, in which case your best answer is, "It depends on who's doing the counting."

Jesus wasn't a human being. Well he was, but he existed as God before he became a human. It's a trinity thing. Here is an article that I've shared before that deals with it. But as I said, if what I am doing IS idolatry, then it means I'm worshipping the wrong God, in which case I'm screwed (or at least I've gotta hope that the real God, whoever it is, doesn't mind me worshipping as I do). Edited by Paranoid Android
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Lilly

Bottom line: No one can *prove* the existence of God without using faith.

So, the 'answer' here is that a person's faith in God is what makes them 'right'. Personally, I don't see this as being a question of right or wrong anyway. It's really all a matter of personal faith.

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Mr Walker

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

1)What exactly makes you right?

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

well I am neither religious nor devout but I wil give it a a go.1 Evidence and proof makes me right 2 no one NEEDS god in their lives but god's presence or belief in god benefit humans.3 I don't believe I KNOW, but speaking for my wife she believes via faith .4 Yes5. We are ALL more than just men/human God exists in all of us. We all have god and devil in us and must chose which to feed. My guiding principle is one of logical consequence or judging by the fruits of one's behaviour.. 6 Jesus was a template for humans to live by and possibly a vessel for the spirit/consciousness of god.7 Every human is potentially identical and equal. Only our behaviours distinguish us.8 I cant speak for faith, but my life stands as a testimony for its own success. I (or you) can objectively measure the success of other humans against it and decide for yourself. The way I live due to a connection to god makes it the best way to live for optimal living. (you can measure this by objective standards) Just for example I don't drink or smoke or take drugs because my body houses god as well as me and to be the best I can be this is essential This gives me measurably better outcomes than people who do smoke drink or take drugs. This is an "extreme" example of the principle but it is the same for ALL things. I am never depressed, never angry, never jealous, never vengeful, never hurt or lonely etc thus My mental equilibrium/health is better than most, and this will also help me live longer and more successfully. Every need I have in life is more than adequately met, and has been all my life with god So how could it get any better?

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker

well I am neither religious nor devout but I wil give it a a go.1 Evidence and proof makes me right 2 no one NEEDS god in their lives but god's presence or belief in god benefit humans.3 I don't believe I KNOW, but speaking for my wife she believes via faith .4 Yes5. We are ALL more than just men/human God exists in all of us. We all have god and devil in us and must chose which to feed. My guiding principle is one of logical consequence or judging by the fruits of one's behaviour.. 6 Jesus was a template for humans to live by and possibly a vessel for the spirit/consciousness of god.7 Every human is potentially identical and equal. Only our behaviours distinguish us.8 I cant speak for faith, but my life stands as a testimony for its own success. I (or you) can objectively measure the success of other humans against it and decide for yourself. The way I live due to a connection to god makes it the best way to live for optimal living. (you can measure this by objective standards) Just for example I don't drink or smoke or take drugs because my body houses god as well as me and to be the best I can be this is essential This gives me measurably better outcomes than people who do smoke drink or take drugs. This is an "extreme" example of the principle but it is the same for ALL things. I am never depressed, never angry, never jealous, never vengeful, never hurt or lonely etc thus My mental equilibrium/health is better than most, and this will also help me live longer and more successfully. Every need I have in life is more than adequately met, and has been all my life with god So how could it get any better?

On the other hand I have a personal relationship with god , Not a faith. Thus I could live the same successful life as a jainist Buddhist pagan gean jew muslim etc because that is all irrelevant. It is how one connects to god which is critical.

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Stubbly_Dooright

Well, this is an interesting topic. ;):yes:

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

1)What exactly makes you right?

I actually don't know if this is relevant for me. Yes, I'm a believer in my own personal belief, but being right? I always felt that beliefs are just things that are only for the holder of the belief. This is something that cannot be proven to others. There could be examples and personal experiences, but I don't think that makes one right to everyone else. j

So, I don't think I'm right, I just think I am comfortable in life with my belief. *shrugs*

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?
Why is it that God is the only thing that is part of the topic? You asked why we are right, not all Christians are right. Ok, I personally think my belief system might be a good thing to have to make you 'centered'. But I should always feel that what is good for one person, is not so for another. Let's just say, I have a hesitancy with a not so reasoned thought that is what you need.
3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?
Experiences, a guide in living my life ( one could say a self serving need, but that could go both ways) and a way to look at others that are themselves and not what I want them to be.
4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?
Well, for personal and for selfless reasons.
5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?
What if? Humnnnnn, Well one I don't believe in the devil, but if it was, ............................... you are talking about my higher power, in which even then it's not a given, well, 'it' wouldn't last. ;)
6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.
That's just it, to me, I actually think he existed as a man. I think he was exceptionary, but idolatry? Naw, I reserve that to PA...................... I mean.........Alan Alda. :D
7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?
Only when I'm working, and that's because I see it daily! ;):devil: ..................... Naw, I need my faith to give me self confidence.
8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

It actually works for me........................ for some reason.

All done! :D

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eight bits

PA

Agnostics believe that it is impossible to know whether there is or is not a God therefore choose neither camp.

Nobody now knows whether there is or is not a God, and so it is moot whether it is now possible to know that. I see little evidence that agnostics ever agreed among themselves whether "impossible" meant impossible in principle forever, or impossible at this very momemt (like to say for sure whether any even number greater than two is not the sum of two primes).

My guess is that most agnostics would and would have accepted the argument I associate with deists (such as Antony Flew late in life, a substantive agnostic before then). God could reveal himself effectively, but hasn't, as agnsotics and typical deists agree. Since that God could exist according to agnostics, it is not impossible in principle to know whether or not God exists.

BUT

Their belief that it is impossible to know whether God exists or not clashes with my belief that God exists ...

This is progress! I can remember when you and I were discussing the profound diagreements between science and Bible-belief about what is possible, and you were reluctant to see those as a "clash." Yes, disagreements about what is possible are indeed disagreements, fully as much as disagreements about what is asserted to be definitely true or definitely false.

Just because that belief is that of unknowing doesn't change that they still believe their choice is the right one to make.

Actually, no. I cannot believe something without also believing to the same extent that it is true, a tautology, but I can choose something without believing that it is the right choice. Further, it is not in evidence that I do choose what I believe.

When mentioning Swedenborg, I hadn't anticipated that you'd agree with him, lol. My point was that under your "turn the tables on the OP" assumption, "What if God IS God, the saviour of humanity through the Lord Jesus Christ?" there would be many possibilities besides the OP's being screwed. For unavoidable screwing, you'd need to assume more of your own take in additon to this foundational statement with which Swedenborg wholeheartedly agreed.

Jesus wasn't a human being. Well he was, ...

An excellent summary of the difficulty many of us have with this view. Bravo.

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Bluefinger

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

1)What exactly makes you right?

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

1. What makes me right is my belief that I am right. It comes from within. Like when I try something new on a menu, which I rarely do out of fear of wasting my money. When I make the right choice, I know it. Same with my belief in God.

2. I think nonbelievers need God in their lives because there is no better way to live than worshiping God. Knowing that the Maker of the Universe loves you is far more grand than any human relationship or human experience can compete. This belief even comes with the disclaimer that cultural difference is beautiful to Him.

3. What motivates me is purpose. Like I said, I don't like wasting money. I don't like wasting anything. When I do, I feel terrible about it. I like things, including life, to mean something. Purpose, in my opinion, is always established by a higher power. My bed received its purpose from its makers. Every night it receives its purpose from me, and sometimes during the day. Same for my iPad, my breakfast, my TV, and my car. I believe that the Maker of the Universe has purposed mankind to worship Him and be exceedingly blessed doing so (Genesis 3:1-3).

4. I do follow my faith for personal reasons. Having grown up around many different teachings and having seen the flaws in many of them, I sought out God personally. After a few years of mindless partying and a devastating divorce, I found myself in shame of all my past hypocrisy. I almost forsook God because of how twisted my thinking had become over the many years and how I felt like I had wasted my life (remember how I feel about wasting things). Three separate times, three separate people who did not know each other informed me that the local church was looking for musicians and that I should try out. All three times I rejected their suggestions. After the third time, however, I believed that the Maker might actually be pursuing me. I gave that church a try and found so much grace toward my spiritual growth. I decided that if I was going to give religion another chance, God would have to be far more forgiving than people I grew up around said He was. That led me to Jesus and I truly have not been the same since.

5. If my God isn't God, but is a demon or the devil, then he must be outsmarting even his own self. What evil demon desires good and the contagious spread of goodness? What evil demon wants people to treat each other fairly and seek after a truly meaningful life? I strongly doubt that my God, the Maker of this wonderful universe, is a demon.

6. If I practice idolatry through Jesus, then my sins are still counted against me and I am condemned for not complying with archaic and culturally-specific religious commands that were established in a historical setting far different than ours. In this case, Jesus is still more appealing. The grace of God is more than just a magical phrase or the easing of suffering. The grace of God is a living example that I daily cling to. That grace is the person of Jesus Christ, the best manifestation of the Maker of the universe to such feeble-minded people like myself. If I reject the deity of Jesus, I reject the divine power of the grace that flows through His veins. If he was just a man, then nobody is saved nor can they be.

7. I do not consider myself superior. I consider myself extremely fortunate. I've hung my head down in shame too many times to consider myself superior. I am also an evangelist. Evangelism and superiority-complex are not as compatible as most people thing. An evangelist's main concern is the welfare of others and the glory of God. There is no room for superiority in the evangelism field. People who do feel superior often turn others away from the gospel or are found out soon after calling people to the alter.

8. What makes my faith better than other belief structures is the tenacity to love and to love beyond logic. Jesus died for me even while I was still sinning. Then He called me to love others the same way. In what other religion does the supreme being love like that? There are sun gods, ocean gods, sex gods, war gods, gods of love (erotic love), dying gods, resurrecting gods, nature gods, drunkeness gods, light gods, dark gods, lightning gods, and the list could go on. But none of them have love like Jesus and none of them relentlessly pursues human beings like Jesus. The other gods sit far off and call others at the cost of misery. Jesus alone pursues us and took on the miseries of all of human history until it killed him. Name a god who loved like Jesus and relentlessly pursues human affection like Jesus. I cannot think of any gods that meet that criteria, only bits and pieces. That is why I believe my faith is better. It's not out of superiority that I write this. My entire life I have faced rejection from everyone around me, even family. The only person that actually stuck by me and defended me was Jesus.

Edited by Bluefinger
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XenoFish

@Bluefinger: What you've wrote is what I'm looking for. It was very insightful and thank you for sharing.

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lightly

Bottom line: No one can *prove* the existence of God without using faith.

So, the 'answer' here is that a person's faith in God is what makes them 'right'. Personally, I don't see this as being a question of right or wrong anyway. It's really all a matter of personal faith.

good answer Lilly, when i read XenoFish's question... that 's the (one word) answer my mind produced as well.

Belief or Unbelief are "right" in the believer's ,or unbeliever's, mind/heart.

Hebrews 11:1King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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Paranoid Android

PA

Nobody now knows whether there is or is not a God

This is where I disagree with you. I do know that there is a God. I think perhaps you meant to write that nobody can empirically prove God, a comment to which I would wholeheartedly agree. That, however, is a different question. Thus the situation remains where agnostics (regardless of what time frame they set as to the impossibility of proving God or not) have put themselves in a position where they believe they have chosen the correct approach to God.

This is progress! I can remember when you and I were discussing the profound diagreements between science and Bible-belief about what is possible, and you were reluctant to see those as a "clash." Yes, disagreements about what is possible are indeed disagreements, fully as much as disagreements about what is asserted to be definitely true or definitely false.

I'm not sure I know what you are referencing. Science and God do not clash, but those who believe God exists and those who believe it is an unkowable question do.

An excellent summary of the difficulty many of us have with this view. Bravo.

Nevertheless, it remains the case in regard to the question at hand. And as I said, if I am guilty of idolatry, then I've chosen the wrong path and I've just gotta cross my fingers that if God exists then he doesn't worry about such things.

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Paranoid Android

good answer Lilly, when i read XenoFish's question... that 's the (one word) answer my mind produced as well.

Belief or Unbelief are "right" in the believer's ,or unbeliever's, mind/heart.

Hebrews 11:1King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That's a little out of context, since the rest of Hebrews 11 is dedicated to describing people who literally experienced God, who had miracles happen to them, and more beside. Abraham bore a child when he was 90 years old, to a 90 year old wife who was barren. Yet he was still credited as having "faith". The comment about hoping for things not yet seen are in regards to the promises that God made to these people. It's not about hoping blindly without proof. They had the proof, they'd seen it with their eyes, then they chose to follow God because God made them promises.

I'm not sure if this is what you intended or not, but this passage is so often used out of context I thought I'd clarify just to make things clear :)

~ Regards, PA

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KariW

Well, this is an interesting topic. ;):yes:

I actually don't know if this is relevant for me. Yes, I'm a believer in my own personal belief, but being right? I always felt that beliefs are just things that are only for the holder of the belief. This is something that cannot be proven to others. There could be examples and personal experiences, but I don't think that makes one right to everyone else. j

So, I don't think I'm right, I just think I am comfortable in life with my belief. *shrugs*

Why is it that God is the only thing that is part of the topic? You asked why we are right, not all Christians are right. Ok, I personally think my belief system might be a good thing to have to make you 'centered'. But I should always feel that what is good for one person, is not so for another. Let's just say, I have a hesitancy with a not so reasoned thought that is what you need.

Experiences, a guide in living my life ( one could say a self serving need, but that could go both ways) and a way to look at others that are themselves and not what I want them to be.

Well, for personal and for selfless reasons.

What if? Humnnnnn, Well one I don't believe in the devil, but if it was, ............................... you are talking about my higher power, in which even then it's not a given, well, 'it' wouldn't last. ;)

That's just it, to me, I actually think he existed as a man. I think he was exceptionary, but idolatry? Naw, I reserve that to PA...................... I mean.........Alan Alda. :D

Only when I'm working, and that's because I see it daily! ;):devil: ..................... Naw, I need my faith to give me self confidence.

It actually works for me........................ for some reason.

All done! :D

Excellent post, Dooright! :tu:

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GoldenWolf

Bottom line: No one can *prove* the existence of God without using faith.

So, the 'answer' here is that a person's faith in God is what makes them 'right'. Personally, I don't see this as being a question of right or wrong anyway. It's really all a matter of personal faith.

Faith will never be proof.

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eight bits

PA

This is where I disagree with you. I do know that there is a God.

Let's try not to move the goalposts so much. You, PA, introduced the verb to know into our discussion with your proposed definition of agnostic,

Agnostics believe that it is impossible to know whether there is or is not a God ...

Nobody, agnostic or otherwise, denies that it is possible for a person to estimate whether it is or is not seriously possible that there is no God. If something like that, a personal estimate of plausibility held with whatever confidence, isn't what you mean by "I do know that there is a God," then no, I believe that you do not know that, and that nobody else does, either.

In retrospect we might say that Huxley meant something like that people could not empirically prove that there was or wasn't a god. Many people today do agree with that, although it was hotly controversial at the time. In any case, it wasn't what I meant by to know in the context of replying to your proposed definition of my religious beliefs.

Science and God do not clash, ...

As I recall, what we discussed was a Biblical "creator and sustainer type" God, what you said you actually believed to be the case about God, not whether there exists any sort of thing that it is simply outsdie the scope of scientific inquiry.

Abraham bore a child when he was 90 years old, to a 90 year old wife who was barren.

Glad you mentioned that. It also came up recently in another thread as well ("Genesis 5:18-24 (KJV)" here on S vs. S). Abraham lived to 175, yes? Aren't these factoids pretty much fatal to your idea that the legendary or figurative portions of Genesis are only found in the first dozen chapters or so? (It's still a current thread; you can answer there if you prefer.)

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Bluefinger

@Bluefinger: What you've wrote is what I'm looking for. It was very insightful and thank you for sharing.

Thanks XenoFish, I'm really glad I could help. I hope you find all the answers you are looking for.

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