What makes you right?

[Mr Walker]

Well the thing about me is I want to know. I test. I can't simply go on faith. Which is one of the reason I hold an indifferent state of mind when it come to religious and spiritual beliefs. I do feel that you get out of them what you expect of them. Maybe that how it all works, perhaps?

It does and it is true. But it is not the whole truth. It is possible to know god just as you know another person or your cat> once you have that experiential knowledge you no longer need nor can even have a belief about gods existence. Just as placebos have an effect, so to do real drugs.

[Bluefinger]

I like this last line of this particular part in your post. The first one, (although, this is in the 'I think' and to me, that is kind of a hands off for me ) how would you think that there is no better to live other that what you 'you think' ((Again, this is your belief, I'm not knocking it)) but how would you compare with how non-believers believe to be the best way to live to what you think is worshipping God being better? Now, I'm not saying it's not. I feel who knows, it could be. But non believers don't believe, so how would they think it's better, if there is no evidence to them ( you know, not in the way you and I have evidences for us to believe in our beliefs)? Do you know I mean?

Thank you KariW!

Hi Kari, thank for respoding! Here is a short example of how I would put it.

Last Thursday, my mother-in-law made us a really interesting lunch that I had never heard of. Simple, but tasty. What she did was, she cut an avacado in half, took out the pitt and removed a little of the avacado surface around where the pitt was. Then, she cracked an egg into the avacado half, seasoned it, and cooked it in the oven at 425 for 20 minutes (should have been 15, but it was still good).

When I went grocery shopping, I encountered a woman at the avacado stand. The avacados were too ripe. She said, "They'll never it get it right, will they?" I agreed. I could not help but immediately tell her about the new recipe I experienced. As I told her, I could see her mood change from disappointment to excited curiosity. I had shared with her news that she perhaps could not wait to try herself (if only the avacados were a little less ripe).

I then shared the news with the cashier, who also seem interested. I told her that the recipe likely came from pinterest. Up until that point, none of these people ever knew about that recipe. They knew, avacados and they knew egg. But they did not ever think of pairing the two like this.

So, when I say, "I think...," I am sharing an experience that they will have to try for themselves to experience.

"I think" they would enjoy it, even though they never tasted it. Same with worshiping God. It is a simple recipe that can be totally botched up by self-absorbtion and cynicism. But when it is done right, it is a completely joyful experience. People can either try it or reject it. But if they ask me why nonbelievers need God, I will first appeal to why they should want God. That is, after all, what God wants.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Bluefinger

[Bluefinger]

Well the thing about me is I want to know. I test. I can't simply go on faith. Which is one of the reason I hold an indifferent state of mind when it come to religious and spiritual beliefs. I do feel that you get out of them what you expect of them. Maybe that how it all works, perhaps?

Hey Xeno, we are learning more about the universe every day. But as Russel Brand put it, we are only learning through the use of our five senses. Even those senses are limited by the instruments we use and our capability to modulate them to our frequency. There is so much more out there that is beyond our capability to sense.

And maybe one day we'll get there.

But the point is this: You don't have enough time to find out all the answers. Atheism demands evidence it can never get, then assumes it doesn't exist. Agnosticism assumes the evidence may be out there, but it is unknowable. Theism does not always wait for the evidence.

You see, theists don't have their heads stuck up in the clouds so much that they are of no earthly good. Most of us totally understand how short and cruel life can be. But we use these facts and experiences to add meaning to our lives. We often go ahead of the evidence, taking the chance that we are wrong. Life is too short to be worrying if you got it wrong.

My recommendation is take the path that makes everything in the human experience meaningful and good. For me, Jesus does that.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Bluefinger

[XenoFish]

To my surprise bluefinger you have been one of the most insightful individuals in this thread so far (that's not meant to be an insult at all). Thank you for taking the time to respond.

[+Hammerclaw]

Alright all you religiously devout individuals on this forum. I have some questions for you.

1)What exactly makes you right?

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

For by Faith we are save through the Grace of God, not of our own doing, it is His Gift to us who believe. Faith can not be explained it can only be experienced. You won't find any trite little answers to any of your arrogant, insolent little questions in this or any other forum. You have to find them the hard way, just like the rest of us.

[Gunn]

I've posted such links for years. If you don't believe me then try and prove me wrong. As soon as you do any serious searching oyu will find the results and the studies themselves. I am not here to educate you or change your mind; just to state factual truths which you can check for yourself.WHY do SOME religious people smoke and drink less than non religious people ? Because their faith or belief directs them to. For example they might think their body is the temple of the lord and needs to be kept healthy. Thus there is, in this instance, a direct causal link between faith/belief and health. Take the studies of senior citizens in nursing homes.Those with a belief in a loving god lived longer and were less depressed than those without such a belief. Its logical They believed they had someone caring for them and watching over them where as those without faith were often lonely isolated an worried about their health and depressed. THe "believers" were thus less lonely, worried, or depressed, and lived longer and happier lives as a consequence. Direct causal link. Also in cohorts of otherwise equal living habits, smokers drinkers or not, people who attend church once a week statistically live 5-7 years longer than those who do not attend church. And its not the social effect of community because attending a bowling club once a week doesn't have the same effect..

I will give you ONE source filled with meta analysis of peer reviewed findings in recent years. Read it carefully.

http:www.hindawi.com/journals/ism/2012/278730/ Damn the link didn't work Google " religion, spirituality and health: The research and clinical implications"

Seems to work the same in all other religions and spiritual beliefs too, even satanism. I suspect it's how you think that effects your life on the outside. The mind is powerful and how you think on the inside will either effect your health negatively or positively on the outside, which either shortens your life or prolongs it. Have you ever noticed how after a senior individual has lost a mate to death, if they dearly loved them they get depressed and sad about it and don't want to go on, then not too long after that, they die.

It's got to be something within the mind or brain and not just with any specific religion.

[Bluefinger]

To my surprise bluefinger you have been one of the most insightful individuals in this thread so far (that's not meant to be an insult at all). Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Great! I'm glad you're benefiting from these conversations. I'm looking forward to learning from you now.

[robinrenee]

Couldn't have been said that when I did practice magick I was a hypocrite? I mean being an agnostic occultist, and calling forth spirits and other such entities. Even though I held a curious view of god. I found such rituals a the middle piller and both the greater and lesser banishing rituals of the pentagram to be highly effective on a personal level. I began to regard them as a placebo of sorts. The banishing rituals began to give me a psychological release, I felt calmer and more relaxed after. The middle pillar increased my energy level, which I liken unto a placebo effect. Yet I believed in what I did. It kept me calm, it helped me focused, and most important I was happy. I did worry about god existing. I just found that the philosophy of Christianity to be simple and effective, though I still had a curiosity about god's existence, what I hated was the structure of the religion. The basics were to me (might need correction), have faith, pray, act kindly/honestly, treat other as you wish to be treated, and that was it. Very, very simple and back in my occultist day I did this. You could say I was spiritual rather than religious. Even during those times I didn't require the validation of a higher power, I didn't need proof nor did I even care if god existed. It was a odd mix of beliefs that worked. I just did the work because it made me feel good.

I sure this might not be making sense to anyone.

I understand. As a solitary crone, I find white magic to be comforting and refreshing to my soul. As I have aged in the craft (45 years), I find that I need not rely on the physical forms of spells, potions, or rituals. They are simply tools for focus. I cannot imagine depriving myself of such a simple, elegant, and life affirming practice.

I believe the power of white magic is the Creator. It's like prayer and worship. It's an intimate connection with God.

I also believe that all the revealed religions on earth are civilization's intimate connection with God. I study and appreciate all of them. They are like chapters in the book of life. They all fit together like a puzzle.

[XenoFish]

I think it's the fanatics that really grind my gears. Where everything is an absolute. Those that think they are 100% the only way and everyone else is damned to eternal hell fire for not believe the same thing. As for myself I do believe there is something more to life. Perhaps even something after but I refuse to label it, to give it a label is to limit the unimaginable, the un-understandable. So I just don't worry about it and being right or wrong. It doesn't even matter to me.

I've had a saying for a long time; Science is the art of understanding the works of god, because god can not be found in a book, only through the understanding of nature itself.

I do not see god as a personal being although if such a thing give someone comfort then so be it. So far this thread has been enlightening.

[Jack Skellington]

For by Faith we are save through the Grace of God, not of our own doing, it is His Gift to us who believe. Faith can not be explained it can only be experienced. You won't find any trite little answers to any of your arrogant, insolent little questions in this or any other forum. You have to find them the hard way, just like the rest of us.

No answers, perhaps-- but arrogant, insolent responses like this one accomplish nothing.

What if his 'little questions' are sincere?

1)What exactly makes you right?

Only the Truth makes a person right. Truth reveals what is right. A person can only 'be proven' right by the Truth when they are discovered to be in alignment with the truth. No other way. Everything else is presumption.

2)Why do you think us non-believers need God in our lives?

Wrong question. God gives life to all that is alive. God is in our lives whether we acknowledge it or not. Knowing this enriches a person's life. We all need to acknowledge God's presence in our lives to begin to understand the nature and purpose of our lives. A fish might be completely unaware of the nature of the water it lives in, but apart from that water the fish is not. If the fish was to become a thinker like you, he'd have to begin to appreciate that he only exists because of the water that surrounds him. So it is with us and God. A fish might not believe in water at all-- might never give it a moment's thought... just like us and the air we breathe, until someone gives attention to it. They we can hardly breathe or think about not breathing without being confronted by the reality of what we are and what we would be apart from that which gives us life.

3)What motivates you to believe in something that may or may not be real?

To believe in a mystery is to acknowledge something greater and something beyond ourselves. Humility is the motivation behind this understanding.

4)Do you follow your faith for personal reasons?

I follow a personal God.

5)What if your god isn't god at all but a demon or the devil in disguise?

If popcorn was poison we'd eat it and die. It might look like something good, but the movie would end in tragedy. So it is with our beliefs. There are many who eat popcorn with a little poison everyday. Death is the ultimate doctor we will visit.

6)What if your actually practice idolatry through your faith in jesus? Since was after all nothing more than a man.

This is a bit like starting a premise with the idea that Issac Newton was nothing more than a man. True. Likewise Thomas Edison was nothing more than a man, as was George Washington and Michael Jackson. What you are missing is that each of these "names" refer both to people who were nothing more than men AND to particular men. There are people who idolize Newton, Edison, Washington, Jackson and Jesus. Of these Jesus is the only one I can recall that was recorded as saying don't.

7)Do you think your self superior to the rest of the un-saved herd?

I can't think of a worse condition. Imagine this herd, unaware of their fate... who is bull-headed enough among them to think themselves superior?

8)What exactly makes your faith correct over all other belief structures?

A little child ran off unnoticed with a piece of the puzzle. Several others secreted pieces away thinking that they would later be the one to complete the picture. In the end, the picture was incomplete. There were holes all over the place and shamefully one by one, people offered up what they had secreted away until there was just the one piece missing. This piece they couldn't find and never did, for the child had eaten it. This child was Jesus.

[GoldenWolf]

I believe the power of white magic is the Creator. It's like prayer and worship. It's an intimate connection with God.

Adding plagues would be considered black magic:

Revelation 22:8

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[Herr Falukorv]

Almost all religious people are religious because they have been brainwashed as children by their parents.

It should be illegal to impose a faith on children or to take them to a church or a moske..

It should be illegal to baptize and circumcise children under 18.

Let them decide for them self if they want to do those things when they have turned 18.

If the parents are christians their children will not become muslims.

If the parents are muslims their children will not become christians.

why??? because they have been brainwashed into believe what their parents believe.

Of course there are some cases where people get religious even if they havent been brainwashed as children but how many are them in percent?

[Jack Skellington]

Almost all religious people are religious because they have been brainwashed as children by their parents.

It should be illegal to impose a faith on children or to take them to a church or a moske..

It should be illegal to baptize and circumcise children under 18.

Let them decide for them self if they want to do those things when they have turned 18.

If the parents are christians their children will not become muslims.

If the parents are muslims their children will not become christians.

why??? because they have been brainwashed into believe what their parents believe.

Of course there are some cases where people get religious even if they havent been brainwashed as children but how many are them in percent?

This is why liberals insist on teaching things like global warming in kindergarten? A good scrubbing between the ears as children prepares them for a lifetime of nonsense. Or is it only "Sunday School" that you are opposed to?

[+Hammerclaw]

Wow. That's using a lot of words to say nothing original. Repeating the old saw that religious people are brainwashed zombies kills the discussion before it even starts.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Hammerclaw

[Jack Skellington]

Wow. That's using a lot of words to say nothing original. Repeating the old saw that religious people are brainwashed zombies kills the discussion before it even starts.

Yet previously in this discussion you said:

Faith can not be explained it can only be experienced. You won't find any trite little answers to any of your arrogant, insolent little questions in this or any other forum

And by that you were what??? Doing discussion CPR?

Enlighten us Hammerclaw... Since you wanted to stir discussion without actually discussing any of the original posters questions--

What questions has 'the experience' of your faith answered?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Same here. I just want to understand the reason some people have for their beliefs. I seek to understand them.

After reading your post #31, I wonder how you wonder that. I'm not saying everyone, and I'm not saying everyone of each belief, but I have found those, like the ones who I think I read that coerced you into a religion by shaming you, and shamed you for you not being healed by that religion, and then they blame you, when the very religion, which seems to be lectured of 'good and selfless will' toward others, but it's more of comforting themselves back. It's circumstances like these that those who have done that should have realized they are wrong and not you. It almost seems hypercritical somehow.

Hi Kari, thank for respoding!

You answered my post in which your answer makes sense to my post. But I'm not KariW, I thanked her for her complimentary post to me. I'm Stubbly. Hi.

Here is a short example of how I would put it.

Last Thursday, my mother-in-law made us a really interesting lunch that I had never heard of. Simple, but tasty. What she did was, she cut an avacado in half, took out the pitt and removed a little of the avacado surface around where the pitt was. Then, she cracked an egg into the avacado half, seasoned it, and cooked it in the oven at 425 for 20 minutes (should have been 15, but it was still good).

When I went grocery shopping, I encountered a woman at the avacado stand. The avacados were too ripe. She said, "They'll never it get it right, will they?" I agreed. I could not help but immediately tell her about the new recipe I experienced. As I told her, I could see her mood change from disappointment to excited curiosity. I had shared with her news that she perhaps could not wait to try herself (if only the avacados were a little less ripe).

I then shared the news with the cashier, who also seem interested. I told her that the recipe likely came from pinterest. Up until that point, none of these people ever knew about that recipe. They knew, avacados and they knew egg. But they did not ever think of pairing the two like this.

So, when I say, "I think...," I am sharing an experience that they will have to try for themselves to experience.

Well, that's cool. I totally understand that. I often feel that with you, and I can understand with those who answer, (not uninvitingly suggest or lecture) with that. Sharing the experience, mostly so when asked. And if it doesn't work for that person, then it didn't work. That's all. But yes, I totally understand that.

"I think" they would enjoy it, even though they never tasted it. Same with worshiping God. It is a simple recipe that can be totally botched up by self-absorbtion and cynicism. But when it is done right, it is a completely joyful experience.

Actually, to be perfectly honest with you, and I say this of my belief, and I see this with representatives from every point of view of belief including non belief, so this is not exclusive to beliefs with God. I have seen this in every aspect all of the time, including myself and my belief is unique.

People can either try it or reject it.

Well, after reading Xenofish's experience in post 31 and what I have observed, there are so many who tried it, honestly believed it, found it not working or what others lecture them to be, and they reject it by sheer reasoning of no proof.

But if they ask me why nonbelievers need God, I will first appeal to why they should want God. That is, after all, what God wants.

Is it the nonbelievers asking that question or others asking that question? And are they saying they need God, or is that you thinking they do? Or do you realize that one who thinks others need God, are really saying 'no they don't' and wonder at wonder this is thought. Whether God wants that or not, I find irrelevant.

To my surprise bluefinger you have been one of the most insightful individuals in this thread so far (that's not meant to be an insult at all). Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Yes, I agree with you on that.

This is why liberals insist on teaching things like global warming in kindergarten? A good scrubbing between the ears as children prepares them for a lifetime of nonsense. Or is it only "Sunday School" that you are opposed to?

Wow! What a way to stereotype. Global warming in kindergarten? Do you have a link I can read to see if this is being done? If I remember correctly from when my kids were in that stage, they were coloring, knowing their ABC's and being taught that warm thing is the sun, not the situation of global warming. Seriously?!

It should be illegal to baptize and circumcise children under 18.

Oh oh! ................... well I had my son circumcised for health reasons. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay??!?!?!

[+Sherapy]

Hey Xeno, we are learning more about the universe every day. But as Russel Brand put it, we are only learning through the use of our five senses. Even those senses are limited by the instruments we use and our capability to modulate them to our frequency. There is so much more out there that is beyond our capability to sense.

And maybe one day we'll get there.

But the point is this: You don't have enough time to find out all the answers. Atheism demands evidence it can never get, then assumes it doesn't exist. Agnosticism assumes the evidence may be out there, but it is unknowable. Theism does not always wait for the evidence.

You see, theists don't have their heads stuck up in the clouds so much that they are of no earthly good. Most of us totally understand how short and cruel life can be. But we use these facts and experiences to add meaning to our lives. We often go ahead of the evidence, taking the chance that we are wrong. Life is too short to be worrying if you got it wrong.

My recommendation is take the path that makes everything in the human experience meaningful and good. For me, Jesus does that.

Very well said, I'd agree with Xenofish you have added a lot to this thread, you have matured a lot since you started here.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

I understand. As a solitary crone, I find white magic to be comforting and refreshing to my soul. As I have aged in the craft (45 years), I find that I need not rely on the physical forms of spells, potions, or rituals. They are simply tools for focus. I cannot imagine depriving myself of such a simple, elegant, and life affirming practice.

I believe the power of white magic is the Creator. It's like prayer and worship. It's an intimate connection with God.

I also believe that all the revealed religions on earth are civilization's intimate connection with God. I study and appreciate all of them. They are like chapters in the book of life. They all fit together like a puzzle.

Beautifully said!

[Jack Skellington]

link-- http://www.coastal.ca.gov/publiced/directory/global_k.html

That's a State of California website. The earth has a fever....

Click the link and scroll down to the lesson plan where you can read where "Mother Earth" tells the children (the teacher tells them using a puppet show)--

Mother Earth: I have begun to get a bit of a fever because some of the people who live on me are making me sick with the dirty gas in their cars, stinky smoke that comes from factories, and icky garbage. You might have felt this way once if you ever got into a car that had been sitting parked in the sun for a long time with the windows shut. When it gets this hot inside of a car the ice cream melts, the flowers you picked bend over and lose their petals, and you feel really uncomfortable because it is SO hot.

I am getting warmer and warmer, just like this car and the reason I am getting hot is because when certain things called fossil fuels are burned the smoke from the burning goes up into the sky to create a kind of a roof on top of the sky! Can you imagine what a roof on top of the sky would be like? The gas people put into cars is a fossil fuel and when you drive around in the car, all the smoke that comes out of the pipe in the back goes up into the sky. When so much smoke goes up into the sky it builds a big roof over the sky and this roof keeps all the hot air from going back out to space, just like the roof of a car! With this roof and heat, I am starting to get sick and my sickness is called Global Warming. I came to you because I knew you would understand and I know how smart you are, and I know you can help. A lot of grownups are helping too. But, I need the help of all the little children of the world to make me better because, if we work together, we can make me a happy and healthy place to live for all the little children and animals in the world.

[+Sherapy]

Couldn't have been said that when I did practice magick I was a hypocrite? I mean being an agnostic occultist, and calling forth spirits and other such entities. Even though I held a curious view of god. I found such rituals a the middle piller and both the greater and lesser banishing rituals of the pentagram to be highly effective on a personal level. I began to regard them as a placebo of sorts. The banishing rituals began to give me a psychological release, I felt calmer and more relaxed after. The middle pillar increased my energy level, which I liken unto a placebo effect. Yet I believed in what I did. It kept me calm, it helped me focused, and most important I was happy. I did worry about god existing. I just found that the philosophy of Christianity to be simple and effective, though I still had a curiosity about god's existence, what I hated was the structure of the religion. The basics were to me (might need correction), have faith, pray, act kindly/honestly, treat other as you wish to be treated, and that was it. Very, very simple and back in my occultist day I did this. You could say I was spiritual rather than religious. Even during those times I didn't require the validation of a higher power, I didn't need proof nor did I even care if god existed. It was a odd mix of beliefs that worked. I just did the work because it made me feel good.

I sure this might not be making sense to anyone.

I find your path fascinating.

[Jack Skellington]

The Emperor has no clothes.

Some people are able to discover or simply observe Truth apart from what everyone has been telling them. If a person becomes a seeker, like Xenofish here, it matters little what you've been taught, or where you've come from other than those lessons and experiences have shaped your journey uniquely. I don't believe it pre-determines your destination even if those particular beliefs have influenced your path.

Each person is free to chart a new course and to be guided by a new Star.

[XenoFish]

I find your path fascinating.

I've always had this natural compulsion to saturate myself with whatever interest me. Until I have a thorough in depth knowledge/experience with it. Magick was a proactive approach to spirituality. How many people have the will to deprive themselves of self-pleasure for 112 days just to do a ritual? The ritual worked by the way. This is why I enjoyed magick, I regret have quit. Seriously thinking about returning. Yet, I'm already bracing myself for the generic "You're going to hell for this devil work." I used to hear all the time.

Very well said, I'd agree with Xenofish you have added a lot to this thread, you have matured a lot since you started here.

Forever a work in progress.

Edited July 12, 2015 by XenoFish

[+Sherapy]

I've posted such links for years. If you don't believe me then try and prove me wrong. As soon as you do any serious searching oyu will find the results and the studies themselves. I am not here to educate you or change your mind; just to state factual truths which you can check for yourself.WHY do SOME religious people smoke and drink less than non religious people ? Because their faith or belief directs them to. For example they might think their body is the temple of the lord and needs to be kept healthy. Thus there is, in this instance, a direct causal link between faith/belief and health. Take the studies of senior citizens in nursing homes.Those with a belief in a loving god lived longer and were less depressed than those without such a belief. Its logical They believed they had someone caring for them and watching over them where as those without faith were often lonely isolated an worried about their health and depressed. THe "believers" were thus less lonely, worried, or depressed, and lived longer and happier lives as a consequence. Direct causal link. Also in cohorts of otherwise equal living habits, smokers drinkers or not, people who attend church once a week statistically live 5-7 years longer than those who do not attend church. And its not the social effect of community because attending a bowling club once a week doesn't have the same effect..

I will give you ONE source filled with meta analysis of peer reviewed findings in recent years. Read it carefully.

http:www.hindawi.com/journals/ism/2012/278730/ Damn the link didn't work Google " religion, spirituality and health: The research and clinical implications"

I have a granny who is almost 98, it isn't her faith in God that gets her through, it's the love of her family, feeling wanted and cherished, and how she embraced the challenge at 75 of becoming independent for the first time in her life, my grandpa died of cancer, she has exemplary health, in part it's genetic, we say she got it all, she literally has not had any major health issues, she doesn't even need hearing aids, she is in a retirement facility, and takes care of her own needs, she is amazing. She took care of herself physically her entire life, she never drank, she never smoked, she always exercised, she still does, she kept her weight down, never allowed herself to be obese. She has an incredible attitude too, she didn't make choices in her life that caused her undo stress. She tells me for her, God came later and is for the living especially the older one gets, and it is not unusual for the elderly to believe in God more as a way to cope with the loss of loved ones and to face death. She said what matters is the friendships that she has formed, she doesn't attend church at all, in fact, many of her friends don't.

I don't begrudge you wanting your last years to be as healthy as possible, and good for you, but you can have a good attitude, have an ability to form friendships and do quite well too. I have elderly friends who I visit regularly and I can tell you having those that love you, take the time to call you, and visit you and really seem to love you is the magic that adds to quality of life. My dad is a devote Catholic and the church is not what has gotten him through the loss of my mom, it's been his friends and family hands down, no question about it. Now, there are people who do build strong bonds with their church friends, and this certainly would give that sense of belonging that adds joy to life. But the things you claim are really a matter of mindset more than anything else, easily attained with or without church.

[+Sherapy]

I've always had this natural compulsion to saturate myself with whatever interest me. Until I have a thorough in depth knowledge/experience with it. Magick was a proactive approach to spirituality. How many people have the will to deprive themselves of self-pleasure for 112 days just to do a ritual? The ritual worked by the way. This is why I enjoyed magick, I regret have quit. Seriously thinking about returning. Yet, I'm already bracing myself for the generic "You're going to hell for this devil work." I used to hear all the time.

Forever a work in progress.

That is really interesting, what kind of ritual was it, feel free to PM me. Tell me more!

[Gunn]

I've always had this natural compulsion to saturate myself with whatever interest me. Until I have a thorough in depth knowledge/experience with it. Magick was a proactive approach to spirituality. How many people have the will to deprive themselves of self-pleasure for 112 days just to do a ritual? The ritual worked by the way. This is why I enjoyed magick, I regret have quit. Seriously thinking about returning. Yet, I'm already bracing myself for the generic "You're going to hell for this devil work." I used to hear all the time.

I think you're letting other people get inside your head if you're bothered by what they say in reference to that. It's more of a psychological attack if anything, to pressure you to be like the rest of them or to use one of your own words - to join or be like the rest of their "herd". Remember, they are human and put their pants leg on, one leg at a time just like you do. So how do they have any superior knowledge about everything and anything around them in life, if they're just as human as you? Talk is cheap, but personal experience is gold. So they're not really expressing what is right or true, just popular opinion in the group or organization they associate with. It's all psychological with people in what we say or do. Don't participate in their world or world view about anything. Instead, look at people from a psychological perspective and why they do the things they do or say the things they say. Is there a motive? Do they suffer from personal issues? Is there or was there a void in their life and the things they believe is now is filling that void? - And because of that, do they think by saying such things to you they are helping you by chastising you? - Because they found some sort of superior lifestyle and belief?

Always analyze, analyze, psychological analyze and don't let their emotions effect you, so that anger, rage and resentment does not rule you.

And do not let others dictate your life choices, pursue what you love and love what you do.