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XenoFish

What makes you right?

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Mr Walker

Seems to work the same in all other religions and spiritual beliefs too, even satanism. I suspect it's how you think that effects your life on the outside. The mind is powerful and how you think on the inside will either effect your health negatively or positively on the outside, which either shortens your life or prolongs it. Have you ever noticed how after a senior individual has lost a mate to death, if they dearly loved them they get depressed and sad about it and don't want to go on, then not too long after that, they die.

It's got to be something within the mind or brain and not just with any specific religion.

Well of course it works for all beliefs and faiths. That was my point. It's not about religion but about the physical/psychological power of faith. Did you see the word Christian appear in my post? The statistical differences, which are quite marked, apply across the globe, between those who have a faith or belief, and those who have none. Satanism might work, but the biggest positive differences occur when the god/entity concerned is a loving compassionate god, rather than a vengeful entity or one to be feared. Belief in a hard vengeful god has been shown to have some negative effects. Evolution has led humans to construct beliefs which create positive survival outcomes which in turn create effects that are observable and testable. Religions based on such belief structures grow and prosper, and survive, specifically BECAUSE people can see the benefits accruing..

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robinrenee

link-- http://www.coastal.c...y/global_k.html

That's a State of California website. The earth has a fever....

Click the link and scroll down to the lesson plan where you can read where "Mother Earth" tells the children (the teacher tells them using a puppet show)--

Mother Earth: I have begun to get a bit of a fever because some of the people who live on me are making me sick with the dirty gas in their cars, stinky smoke that comes from factories, and icky garbage. You might have felt this way once if you ever got into a car that had been sitting parked in the sun for a long time with the windows shut. When it gets this hot inside of a car the ice cream melts, the flowers you picked bend over and lose their petals, and you feel really uncomfortable because it is SO hot.

I am getting warmer and warmer, just like this car and the reason I am getting hot is because when certain things called fossil fuels are burned the smoke from the burning goes up into the sky to create a kind of a roof on top of the sky! Can you imagine what a roof on top of the sky would be like? The gas people put into cars is a fossil fuel and when you drive around in the car, all the smoke that comes out of the pipe in the back goes up into the sky. When so much smoke goes up into the sky it builds a big roof over the sky and this roof keeps all the hot air from going back out to space, just like the roof of a car! With this roof and heat, I am starting to get sick and my sickness is called Global Warming. I came to you because I knew you would understand and I know how smart you are, and I know you can help. A lot of grownups are helping too. But, I need the help of all the little children of the world to make me better because, if we work together, we can make me a happy and healthy place to live for all the little children and animals in the world.

That IS disturbing! I guess that's what indoctrination is all about.

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Mr Walker

Almost all religious people are religious because they have been brainwashed as children by their parents.

It should be illegal to impose a faith on children or to take them to a church or a moske..

It should be illegal to baptize and circumcise children under 18.

Let them decide for them self if they want to do those things when they have turned 18.

If the parents are christians their children will not become muslims.

If the parents are muslims their children will not become christians.

why??? because they have been brainwashed into believe what their parents believe.

Of course there are some cases where people get religious even if they havent been brainwashed as children but how many are them in percent?

This is absolutely untrue although an understandable view. Studies of children all over the world, including those with atheist parents and some who have never been taught about gods or religions construct their OWN belief systems and gods. This occurs because of known aspects to human thinking It involves distinguishing agents from non agents and also the need to explain causation to all observed actions. Hence almost from birth children construct beliefs to explain that which they can observe but not explain. So, while [parents might teach children to follow a particular god or belief, or indeed teach them eventually not to believe, all humans are born with thought processes leading them to construct belief. It is our default position, and one which is quite hardy and difficult to remove.. While no human has ever been observed raised without human involvement scientists believe that such a child (as long as it was taught language and thus cognitive abilty ) would create its own beliefs, religion, myths, legends, creation story etc. the nature of our minds, "forces us to do this " in order to make sense of observed things for which we lack data and knowledge.

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Mr Walker

link-- http://www.coastal.c...y/global_k.html

That's a State of California website. The earth has a fever....

Click the link and scroll down to the lesson plan where you can read where "Mother Earth" tells the children (the teacher tells them using a puppet show)--

Mother Earth: I have begun to get a bit of a fever because some of the people who live on me are making me sick with the dirty gas in their cars, stinky smoke that comes from factories, and icky garbage. You might have felt this way once if you ever got into a car that had been sitting parked in the sun for a long time with the windows shut. When it gets this hot inside of a car the ice cream melts, the flowers you picked bend over and lose their petals, and you feel really uncomfortable because it is SO hot.

I am getting warmer and warmer, just like this car and the reason I am getting hot is because when certain things called fossil fuels are burned the smoke from the burning goes up into the sky to create a kind of a roof on top of the sky! Can you imagine what a roof on top of the sky would be like? The gas people put into cars is a fossil fuel and when you drive around in the car, all the smoke that comes out of the pipe in the back goes up into the sky. When so much smoke goes up into the sky it builds a big roof over the sky and this roof keeps all the hot air from going back out to space, just like the roof of a car! With this roof and heat, I am starting to get sick and my sickness is called Global Warming. I came to you because I knew you would understand and I know how smart you are, and I know you can help. A lot of grownups are helping too. But, I need the help of all the little children of the world to make me better because, if we work together, we can make me a happy and healthy place to live for all the little children and animals in the world.

South Australian schools use a government curriculum to promote not just values about global warming but about the benefits of socialism over private enterprise, social justice and the need to help others, multi culturalism, feminism and the role and purpose of trade unions as positive models of human organisation. There are MANY social and economic values specifically taught by school curricula with which many of us might disagree.

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Mr Walker

I have a granny who is almost 98, it isn't her faith in God that gets her through, it's the love of her family, feeling wanted and cherished, and how she embraced the challenge at 75 of becoming independent for the first time in her life, my grandpa died of cancer, she has exemplary health, in part it's genetic, we say she got it all, she literally has not had any major health issues, she doesn't even need hearing aids, she is in a retirement facility, and takes care of her own needs, she is amazing. She took care of herself physically her entire life, she never drank, she never smoked, she always exercised, she still does, she kept her weight down, never allowed herself to be obese. She has an incredible attitude too, she didn't make choices in her life that caused her undo stress. She tells me for her, God came later and is for the living especially the older one gets, and it is not unusual for the elderly to believe in God more as a way to cope with the loss of loved ones and to face death. She said what matters is the friendships that she has formed, she doesn't attend church at all, in fact, many of her friends don't.

I don't begrudge you wanting your last years to be as healthy as possible, and good for you, but you can have a good attitude, have an ability to form friendships and do quite well too. I have elderly friends who I visit regularly and I can tell you having those that love you, take the time to call you, and visit you and really seem to love you is the magic that adds to quality of life. My dad is a devote Catholic and the church is not what has gotten him through the loss of my mom, it's been his friends and family hands down, no question about it. Now, there are people who do build strong bonds with their church friends, and this certainly would give that sense of belonging that adds joy to life. But the things you claim are really a matter of mindset more than anything else, easily attained with or without church.

AGAIN it is not about me (or your granny) It is about scientific and statistical studies which PROVE that belief and faith help humans to live longer, happier lives My happiness or your grandmothers happiness are anecdotal and while significant to us don't provide proof. But large and longitudinal studies across the world DO. I might be a non smoker and your granny a smoker. I might die from lung cancer aged 40 and she might live to be 100 NONETHELESS it is proven that smoking causes lung cancer and that cancer kills peole ad reduces their longevity and health. Likewise it is proven scientifically that faith and belief, in themselves, improve longevity and health. If mere mindset did the trick there would not exist any statistical difference between believers and non believers.

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StarMountainKid

To me it doesn't seem anyone is right, even though everyone considers themselves right. It's a built-in psychological imperative, but it's just an illusion. "I am right" is just a temporary opinion that may change over time. I think at the moment of before death we may reminisce over all the "I am right" moments in our lives and decide none of them were correct or had any real meaning for us.

When we hold tightly to our opinions it is a form of paralysis or arthritis.

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Likely Guy

I've posted such links for years. If you don't believe me then try and prove me wrong. As soon as you do any serious searching oyu will find the results and the studies themselves. I am not here to educate you or change your mind; just to state factual truths which you can check for yourself.WHY do SOME religious people smoke and drink less than non religious people ? Because their faith or belief directs them to. For example they might think their body is the temple of the lord and needs to be kept healthy. Thus there is, in this instance, a direct causal link between faith/belief and health. Take the studies of senior citizens in nursing homes.Those with a belief in a loving god lived longer and were less depressed than those without such a belief. Its logical They believed they had someone caring for them and watching over them where as those without faith were often lonely isolated an worried about their health and depressed. THe "believers" were thus less lonely, worried, or depressed, and lived longer and happier lives as a consequence. Direct causal link. Also in cohorts of otherwise equal living habits, smokers drinkers or not, people who attend church once a week statistically live 5-7 years longer than those who do not attend church. And its not the social effect of community because attending a bowling club once a week doesn't have the same effect..

I will give you ONE source filled with meta analysis of peer reviewed findings in recent years. Read it carefully.

http:www.hindawi.com/journals/ism/2012/278730/ Damn the link didn't work Google " religion, spirituality and health: The research and clinical implications"

Hogwash. People that attend church/temple/mosque judge the other attendees. Peer pressure. That's why they live longer. Edit: "You don't smoke do you?/"You don't drink do you?"

If the attendees didn't have the added stress to conform, who knows, maybe they could have extended their lives a few years longer?

Edited by Likely Guy
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Hammerclaw

Yet previously in this discussion you said:

And by that you were what??? Doing discussion CPR?

Enlighten us Hammerclaw... Since you wanted to stir discussion without actually discussing any of the original posters questions--

What questions has 'the experience' of your faith answered?

Since your only contribution is kibitzing, you've no high ground from which to cast stones. Why waste time with people who show such contempt and disrespect for people of Faith? It would be too much like casting pearls before swine.
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Jack Skellington

Riiiiiiiiiiiight..... why waste time with seekers? Casting stones? Who has time? I'm busy enough trying to catch yours.

It was the religious folks who took offense when Jesus spoke of casting pearls before swine-- the crowds were not offended, but the religious leaders plotted to kill him for his words. It was the religious dogs who he was referring to while warning of those who would trample and tear to pieces. You get that right?

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Paranoid Android

Hogwash. People that attend church/temple/mosque judge the other attendees. Peer pressure. That's why they live longer. Edit: "You don't smoke do you?/"You don't drink do you?"

If the attendees didn't have the added stress to conform, who knows, maybe they could have extended their lives a few years longer?

That has to be among the most stereotyped descriptions of church attendees I've ever seen. It feels like a scene lifted directly from an episode of the Simpsons where Marge is trying to get Bart to comb his hair and Homer to wear his best white collared shirt and tie. I've been to church wearing thongs, board shorts, and a T-shirt. I've gone wearing jeans and a collared shirt. I've gone wearing a heavy metal shirt of one of my favourite bands. I've gone wearing a football jersey in support of my favourite team. In every situation I've felt like I was treated exactly the same. I know there's the whole concept of "wearing your Sunday best", dressing up and all that jazz. Maybe it's like that in America. In Australia we're pretty laid back in how we approach church. Some of the older members at my current church do tend to still dress neatly, probably a throwback to church culture four or five decades ago, but they accept that the younger generation have a different approach to church attendance. Heck, they've even accepted the fact that the pastor has added the drum kit to the church band and enjoy hearing music that's a little more up-tempo than what they're used to.
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Sherapy

AGAIN it is not about me (or your granny) It is about scientific and statistical studies which PROVE that belief and faith help humans to live longer, happier lives My happiness or your grandmothers happiness are anecdotal and while significant to us don't provide proof. But large and longitudinal studies across the world DO. I might be a non smoker and your granny a smoker. I might die from lung cancer aged 40 and she might live to be 100 NONETHELESS it is proven that smoking causes lung cancer and that cancer kills peole ad reduces their longevity and health. Likewise it is proven scientifically that faith and belief, in themselves, improve longevity and health. If mere mindset did the trick there would not exist any statistical difference between believers and non believers.

Agreed, Read the Longevity Project, it was an 80 year study done it followed 1500 people. It's a great book!

It seems if you are a female then religion may contribute to more longevity and it's not the religion per say , but that the religion inspires her to help others in some way.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110311153541.htm

My apologies to xenofish we have gone off topic.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

That has to be among the most stereotyped descriptions of church attendees I've ever seen. It feels like a scene lifted directly from an episode of the Simpsons where Marge is trying to get Bart to comb his hair and Homer to wear his best white collared shirt and tie. I've been to church wearing thongs, board shorts, and a T-shirt. I've gone wearing jeans and a collared shirt. I've gone wearing a heavy metal shirt of one of my favourite bands. I've gone wearing a football jersey in support of my favourite team. In every situation I've felt like I was treated exactly the same. I know there's the whole concept of "wearing your Sunday best", dressing up and all that jazz. Maybe it's like that in America. In Australia we're pretty laid back in how we approach church. Some of the older members at my current church do tend to still dress neatly, probably a throwback to church culture four or five decades ago, but they accept that the younger generation have a different approach to church attendance. Heck, they've even accepted the fact that the pastor has added the drum kit to the church band and enjoy hearing music that's a little more up-tempo than what they're used to.

It was like that in the church I attended as a young man. Some people don't have nice Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes and it was comforting and welcoming to feel accepted just as they were. I guess you could call it church casual. I miss those days--but not the leisure suit! *lol*

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Hammerclaw

Riiiiiiiiiiiight..... why waste time with seekers? Casting stones? Who has time? I'm busy enough trying to catch yours.

It was the religious folks who took offense when Jesus spoke of casting pearls before swine-- the crowds were not offended, but the religious leaders plotted to kill him for his words. It was the religious dogs who he was referring to while warning of those who would trample and tear to pieces. You get that right?

Seekers of what? Questions couched in the form of conclusions whose premise one does not accept aren't worth addressing. Since it's obvious the poster has already come to antipathetical conclusions such "questions" are redundant.

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Mr Walker

Hogwash. People that attend church/temple/mosque judge the other attendees. Peer pressure. That's why they live longer. Edit: "You don't smoke do you?/"You don't drink do you?"

If the attendees didn't have the added stress to conform, who knows, maybe they could have extended their lives a few years longer?

Oh so judging people makes you live longer? No, these studies compare all sorts of variables including smoking church attendees, drinking church attendees etc While not smoking and drinking ALSO adds to longevity and good health, JUST attending a church (any religion) increases life span by about 5 years. That works all around the world. It works for smokers, non-smokers, vegetarians or meat eaters. I guess you find that an "uncomfortable truth" but people need to know the factual truths involved with the benefits of belief.. I don't smoke and I don't drink (for the last 40 years) but I don't attend church either. If I did I would live longer and with better health, based on statistical analysis. Ps you asked for sourcesF Did you look up the one I gave. Do you accept it is a very academic analysis by experts? Do you accept the findings of the MANY peer reviewed studies described in this source? Or do you just keep believing what you want to believe to be true?

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker

<p>Heck I am going to copy a slab from the source READ IT!

This is valuable information for ALL those who doubt the connection between religion/spirituality and good health in humans.

4.1. Coping with Adversity

In the first edition of the Handbook [27], we identified 110 studies published prior to the year 2000 and 344 studies published between 2000 and 2010 for a total of 454 studies. Among these reports are descriptions of how R/S helped people to cope with a wide range of illnesses or in a variety of stressful situations. These include people dealing with general medical illness [28, 29], chronic pain [30], kidney disease [31], diabetes [32, 33], pulmonary disease [34], cancer [35, 36], blood disorders [37], heart/cardiovascular diseases [38, 39], dental [40] or vision [41] problems, neurological disorders [42], HIV/AIDS [43], systemic lupus erythematosus [44], irritable bowel syndrome [45], musculoskeletal disease [46], caregiver burden [47–49],  psychiatric illness [50, 51], bereavement [52, 53], end-of-life issues [54, 55], overall stress [56–58], natural disasters [59, 60], war [61, 62] or acts of terrorism [63], and miscellaneous adverse life situations [64–66]. In the overwhelming majority of studies, people reported that R/S was helpful.

4.2. Positive Emotions

Positive emotions include well-being, happiness, hope, optimism, meaning and purpose, high self-esteem, and a sense of control over life. Related to positive emotions are positive psychological traits such as altruism, being kind or compassionate, forgiving, and grateful.

4.2.1. Well-Being/HappinessBy mid-2010, at least 326 quantitative, peer-reviewed studies had examined relationships with R/S. Of those, 256 (79%) found only significant positive associations between R/S and well-being (including eight studies at a statistical trend level, that is, ). Only three studies (

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker

4.2.1. Well-Being/Happiness

By mid-2010, at least 326 quantitative, peer-reviewed studies had examined relationships with R/S. Of those, 256 (79%) found only significant positive associations between R/S and well-being (including eight studies at a statistical trend level, that is, ). Only three studies (

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Mr Walker

4.2.3. Optimism

We located 32 studies examining relationships with R/S, and of those, 26 (81%) reported significant positive relationships. Of the 11 best studies, eight (73%) reported significant positive relationships [82–85]. Again, as with hope, no studies reported inverse relationships.

4.2.4. Meaning and Purpose

At least 45 studies have examined relationships with R/S, and 42 (93%) reported significant positive relationships. These studies were often in populations where there was a challenge to having meaning and purpose, such as in people with chronic disabling illness. Of the 10 studies with quality ratings of 7 or higher, all 10 reported significant positive associations [86–89

4.2.5. Self-Esteem

Critics have claimed that R/S adversely affects self-esteem because it emphasizes humility rather than pride in the self [90]. Furthermore, R/S could exacerbate guilt in some for not living up to the high standards of conduct prescribed by religious traditions, resulting in low self-esteem. We found 69 studies that examined associations with R/S, and of those, 42 (61%) found greater self-esteem among those who were more R/S and two (3%) reported lower self-esteem. Of the 25 studies with the highest methodological rigor, 17 (68%) reported greater self-esteem [91–98] and two (8%) found worse self-esteem [99, 100]. Not surprisingly, these findings are parallel to those of depression below (in the opposite direction, of course).

4.2.6. Sense of Control

Although one might expect R/S to correlate positively with an external locus of control (i.e., the Transcendent controlling events), and some studies confirm this, the majority of research finds a positive correlation with an internal not an external sense of control. Of 21 studies that have examined these relationships, 13 (61%) found that R/S was related to a greater sense of personal control in challenging life circumstances. Of the nine best studies, four reported significant positive relationships (44%) [101–104] and three report significant negative relationships (33%) [105–107], whereas the two remaining studies reported complex or mixed results (significant positive and negative associations, depending on R/S characteristic). R/S beliefs may provide an indirect sense of control over stressful situations; by believing that God is in control and that prayer to God can change things, the person feels a greater sense of internal control (rather than having to depend on external agents of control, such as powerful other people).

4.2.7. Positive Character Traits

With regard to character traits, the findings are similar to those with positive emotions. With regard to altruism or frequency of volunteering, 47 studies have examined relationships with R/S. Of those, 33 (70%) reported significant associations, whereas five (11%) found less altruism among the more R/S; of the 20 best studies, 15 (75%) reported positive relationships [108–113] and two (10%) found negative associations [114, 115] (both concerning organ donations, which some religions prohibit). With regard to forgiveness, 40 studies have examined correlations with R/S, and 34 (85%) reported significant positive relationships and no studies found negative associations. Among the 10 highest quality studies, seven (70%) reported greater forgiveness among the more R/S [116–119], a finding that recent research has supported [120]. Regarding gratefulness, five of five studies found positive associations with R/S [121, 122], and with regard to kindness/compassion, three of three studies reported significant positive relationship with R/S [123]. Admittedly, all of the studies measuring character traits above depend on self-report.

4.3. Depression

As with self-esteem, mental health professionals have argued that R/S might increase guilt by focusing on sin and could thus lead to depression. Again, however, this has not been found in the majority of studies. Given the importance of depression, its wide prevalence in the population, and the dysfunction that it causes (both mental and physical), I describe the research findings in a bit more detail. Overall, at least 444 studies have now examined relationships between R/S and depression, dating back to the early 1960s. Of those, 272 (61%) reported significant inverse relationships with depression (including nine studies at a trend level), and 28 (6%) found relationships between R/S and greater depression (including two studies at a trend level). Of the 178 studies with the highest methodological rigor, 119 (67%) reported inverse relationships [124–135] and 13 (7%) found positive relationships with depression [136–148].

Of 70 prospective cohort studies, 39 (56%) reported that greater R/S predicted lower levels of depression or faster remission of depression, whereas seven (10%) predicted worse future depression and seven (10%) reported mixed results (both significant positive and negative associations depending on R/S characteristic). Of 30 clinical trials, 19 (63%) found that R/S interventions produced better outcomes than either standard treatment or control groups. Two studies (7%) found standard treatments were superior to R/S interventions [149, 150] and one study reported mixed results.

Note that an independent review of this literature published in 2003 found that of 147 studies involving 98,975 subjects, the average correlation between R/S and depression was −0.10. Although this is a small correlation, it translates into the same effect size that gender has on depressive symptoms (with the rate of depression being nearly twice as common in women compared to men). Also, the average correlation reported in the 2003 review was 50% stronger in stressed versus nonstressed populations [151].

A widely renowned psychiatric epidemiology group at Columbia University, led by Lisa Miller and Myrna Weissman, has come out with a series of recent reports on R/S and depression studying a cohort of low- and high-risk children born to parents with and without depressive disorder. The findings from this cohort support an inverse link between R/S and depression, particularly in high-risk individuals [152–154].

4.4. Suicide

Correlations between R/S and suicide attempt, completed suicide, and attitudes toward suicide are consistent with those found for depression, self-esteem, and hope. Those who are depressed, without hope, and with low self-esteem are at greater risk for committing suicide. At least 141 studies have now examined relationships between R/S and the suicide variables above. Of those, 106 (75%) reported inverse relationships and four (3%) found positive relationships. With regard to the 49 studies with the highest methodological rigor, 39 (80%) reported less suicide, fewer suicide attempts, or more negative attitudes toward suicide among the more R/S [155–170] and two (4%) found positive relationships (one study in Delhi, India [171], and one in college students distressed over R/S concerns [172]).

4.5. Anxiety

Anxiety and fear often drive people toward religion as a way to cope with the anxiety. Alternatively, R/S may increase anxiety/fear by its threats of punishment for evil deeds and damnation in the next life. There is an old saying that emphasizes this dual role: religion comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comforted. Sorting out cause and effect here is particularly difficult given the few prospective cohort studies that have examined this relationship over time. However, a number of clinical trials have also examined the effects of R/S interventions on anxiety levels. Overall, at least 299 studies have examined this relationship, and of those, 147 (49%) reported inverse association with R/S (three at a trend level), whereas 33 (11%) reported greater anxiety in those who were more R/S. Of the latter, however, only one was a prospective study, one was a randomized clinical trial, and 31 (94%) were cross-sectional studies (where it was not clear whether R/S caused anxiety or whether anxiety increased R/S as a coping response to the anxiety). Of the 67 studies with quality ratings of seven or higher, 38 (55%) reported inverse relationships [173–182] and seven (10%) found positive relationships (greater anxiety among the more R/S) [183–189].

Among these 299 studies were 239 cross-sectional studies, 19 prospective cohort studies, 9 single-group experimental studies, and 32 randomized clinical trials. Of the 19 longitudinal studies, 9 (47%) reported that R/S predicted a lower level of anxiety over time; one study (5%) found an increase in anxiety (among women undergoing abortion for fetal anomaly) [189], seven reported no association, and two reported mixed or complex results. Of the nine experimental studies, seven (78%) found a reduction in anxiety following an R/S intervention (before versus after comparison). Of the 32 randomized clinical trials, 22 (69%) reported that an R/S intervention reduced anxiety more than a standard intervention or control condition, whereas one study (3%) found an increase in anxiety following an R/S intervention in persons with severe alcohol dependence [190].

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Gunn

Well of course it works for all beliefs and faiths. That was my point. It's not about religion but about the physical/psychological power of faith. Did you see the word Christian appear in my post? The statistical differences, which are quite marked, apply across the globe, between those who have a faith or belief, and those who have none. Satanism might work, but the biggest positive differences occur when the god/entity concerned is a loving compassionate god, rather than a vengeful entity or one to be feared. Belief in a hard vengeful god has been shown to have some negative effects. Evolution has led humans to construct beliefs which create positive survival outcomes which in turn create effects that are observable and testable. Religions based on such belief structures grow and prosper, and survive, specifically BECAUSE people can see the benefits accruing..

That's not what I was getting at. I'm looking at this from a psychological perspective, not a religious one. I was specifically talking about the mindset of an individual whether they are in a negative thinking pattern most of the time or in positive thinking pattern most of the time. Religion, faith, beliefs, going to church or whatever might be a booster among many things to a positive thinking process, but I'm willing to bet even most atheist could live just as long and probably have with a positive frame of mind as well. No religion, faith or belief in anything required.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith or belief, but how you think and your positive outlook on life. Therefore, if you have a positive train of thought most of the time, which can help reduce stress, anxiety, anger, resentment, all of the negatives that put you in a dark miserable mental state of mind, then you're most likely to increase your lifespan.

Now while your posting all the info above, I'm not exactly convinced believing in god or whatever is the sole reason behind a longer life span. What about a study on non-religious people who are just happy and have a positive outlook on life? No such study I take it?

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XenoFish

@Purifier: I happen to agree with you. It's the mindset produced and reinforced that would be make the results. If you think negatively all the time you become depressed, think positively and your more upbeat, motivated. Since we are pattern loving creatures, rituals (such as a religious routine) can further cultivate a certain mindset. It become habitual. At least that's my take on it.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I think you're letting other people get inside your head if you're bothered by what they say in reference to that. It's more of a psychological attack if anything, to pressure you to be like the rest of them or to use one of your own words - to join or be like the rest of their "herd". Remember, they are human and put their pants leg on, one leg at a time just like you do. So how do they have any superior knowledge about everything and anything around them in life, if they're just as human as you? Talk is cheap, but personal experience is gold. So they're not really expressing what is right or true, just popular opinion in the group or organization they associate with. It's all psychological with people in what we say or do. Don't participate in their world or world view about anything. Instead, look at people from a psychological perspective and why they do the things they do or say the things they say. Is there a motive? Do they suffer from personal issues? Is there or was there a void in their life and the things they believe is now is filling that void? - And because of that, do they think by saying such things to you they are helping you by chastising you? - Because they found some sort of superior lifestyle and belief?

Always analyze, analyze, psychological analyze and don't let their emotions effect you, so that anger, rage and resentment does not rule you.

And do not let others dictate your life choices, pursue what you love and love what you do.

I have found myself doing that more and more in my life. I think it helps me keep 'my peace' so to speak. I still get very perplexed annoyingly at the audacity of some, when they come to prosetylize and such. But, one thing is for sure, it's usually when I'm in a professional setting now, and never when I'm a free agent of myself. Maybe it's because I don't want to antagonize and tell them I'm not interested and they have no proof and my whole life doesn't have it either. But usually, I'm like, ok I'll go this way while thinking are they really feeling superior when I'm feeling more satisfied with my myself and my life and they come across as internally 'bothered'. Makes me wonder sometimes. I do know people whose beliefs, including Christianity, have made them happy and they don't prosetylize. They even feel great about me and my own beliefs. I think this is great advice in how you look at it.

That IS disturbing! I guess that's what indoctrination is all about.

I thought Jack Skellington's post was about how the Earth is dying from all the wrong things happening to it. I took his post for an environmentally aware one. Did I get that wrong. Indoctrination? Into what, being green?

To me it doesn't seem anyone is right, even though everyone considers themselves right. It's a built-in psychological imperative, but it's just an illusion. "I am right" is just a temporary opinion that may change over time. I think at the moment of before death we may reminisce over all the "I am right" moments in our lives and decide none of them were correct or had any real meaning for us.

When we hold tightly to our opinions it is a form of paralysis or arthritis.

I always have felt, me that is, that the "I'm always right" should come immediately before, "and I have proof, here it is" But interesting thought of that there Star, because I guess each individual has their own "I'm right" opinion. I don't know, I still feel that there is one's own inner truth with their own personal experience to back that up, and the truth that has proof to back that up. *shrugs*
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Stubbly_Dooright

Hogwash. People that attend church/temple/mosque judge the other attendees. Peer pressure. That's why they live longer. Edit: "You don't smoke do you?/"You don't drink do you?"

If the attendees didn't have the added stress to conform, who knows, maybe they could have extended their lives a few years longer?

I would like to say, 'Bingo'! :D:devil: But that could be debated I guess. Anyways, I often feel that it depends. Do introverts have longer life spans in congregational settings? Do extroverts in loner situations? I wonder if it could be argued that there will be that stress situations in every religious situation. Unlike other groups, book groups, town baseball teams, what have you, where I think that individual identities are accepted, I wonder at how individual identities and their different ways go against doctrines that say you have rules for all to go by. (and what I don't get is non-church goers are always being coerced to join a church, and if you go against that church (because it's your experienced belief for that) you have to leave that church. Stressed to join, stressed to leave) I could be wrong, but I sometimes see that. :no:

I often find that my life is less stressful as compared to some who are running so many things at their church and probably don't want to. I'm like, 'I have this in my life only' and I think I don't have to worry about more. To me, it's seems counter productive to the point.

That has to be among the most stereotyped descriptions of church attendees I've ever seen. It feels like a scene lifted directly from an episode of the Simpsons where Marge is trying to get Bart to comb his hair and Homer to wear his best white collared shirt and tie. I've been to church wearing thongs, board shorts, and a T-shirt. I've gone wearing jeans and a collared shirt. I've gone wearing a heavy metal shirt of one of my favourite bands. I've gone wearing a football jersey in support of my favourite team. In every situation I've felt like I was treated exactly the same. I know there's the whole concept of "wearing your Sunday best", dressing up and all that jazz. Maybe it's like that in America. In Australia we're pretty laid back in how we approach church. Some of the older members at my current church do tend to still dress neatly, probably a throwback to church culture four or five decades ago, but they accept that the younger generation have a different approach to church attendance. Heck, they've even accepted the fact that the pastor has added the drum kit to the church band and enjoy hearing music that's a little more up-tempo than what they're used to.

I will admit right now, I'm probably not the best person to say, considering I don't go and never gone to church. But I guess as an American, that is usually the case. From my observation. As a retail employee all over the place, I have seen this. Not all the time, I do believe there are very casual churches, but when working on Sundays in various jobs, and it's that time when the churches let out, I see the all dressed up families. Heck, I don't even own that much pretty outfits.
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Mr Walker

That's not what I was getting at. I'm looking at this from a psychological perspective, not a religious one. I was specifically talking about the mindset of an individual whether they are in a negative thinking pattern most of the time or in positive thinking pattern most of the time. Religion, faith, beliefs, going to church or whatever might be a booster among many things to a positive thinking process, but I'm willing to bet even most atheist could live just as long and probably have with a positive frame of mind as well. No religion, faith or belief in anything required.

I don't think it has anything to do with faith or belief, but how you think and your positive outlook on life. Therefore, if you have a positive train of thought most of the time, which can help reduce stress, anxiety, anger, resentment, all of the negatives that put you in a dark miserable mental state of mind, then you're most likely to increase your lifespan.

Now while your posting all the info above, I'm not exactly convinced believing in god or whatever is the sole reason behind a longer life span. What about a study on non-religious people who are just happy and have a positive outlook on life? No such study I take it?

What is religious belief but a state of mind? The studies compare comparable cohorts of religious /nonreligious. It is the religiosity or spirituality which makes the difference. I agree that this is a state of mind. But the state of mind is a consequence of spiritual belief and apparently cannot be replicated widely in non religious mindsets. Humans who believing a caring interventionist benevolent god gain reduced stress, less anger, and resentment BECAUSE their belief/faith creates those conditions. Suppose you lose a child. If you have no religious faith that must be a terrible thing. If you have religious faith it can be somewhat LESS terrible. If you are alone, frail and elderly, it helps you to believe you have an entity who cares about you/loves you as a person, watches over you, and helps you. The studies reviewed above COMPARED religious/spiritual humans with non religious /spiritual so they INCLUDE data on non religious people who are happy and positive The point is precisely that belief/faith makes humans MORE happy healthy and less depressed.

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Mr Walker

@Purifier: I happen to agree with you. It's the mindset produced and reinforced that would be make the results. If you think negatively all the time you become depressed, think positively and your more upbeat, motivated. Since we are pattern loving creatures, rituals (such as a religious routine) can further cultivate a certain mindset. It become habitual. At least that's my take on it.

You are correct. Routine, companionship, healthy living, a positive mindset, ALL contribute to a longer healthier life. What the studies around the world show is that religious /spiritual people HAVE (due to the structure and nature of faith /belief/religious observance ) those things more than humans who do not and thus are healthier /live longer . Faith and religiosity create/cause lifestyles which are healthy for individuals, and taken in large numbers this is very significant, showing up again and again in statistical studies .. but again it is more than just the pattern or the companionship etc., or people who attended football or senior citizen functions once a week would gain the same benefits as those who attend church and they do not.There is nothing magical or miraculous in all this. It is, as people point out, a joint consequence of the nature of faith, spirituality and religiosity on lifestyle eg stress loneliness etc., contributing up to 10 years (in some studies) longer life.

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XenoFish

So religion and religious beliefs are not even need for the individual who has a positive proactive mindset and life style. Basically an optimist.

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Leonardo

Ok, let's see how we go!

1)What exactly makes you right? - Objectively, nothing that doesn't equally apply to every other person on the planet. Subjectively, I believe I am right and therefore that makes me right.

With all due respect, PA, and perhaps it is just how you have worded your reply, but it seems to me you are confusing "being right" with "believing you are right".

The two states are very different in the nature of determination. "Being right" is determined; there should be factual evidence of the 'rightness'. "Believing you are right" is undetermined; there is no evidence supporting that belief.

So, in respect to answering Xeno's question 1 "What exactly makes you right" - you have not provided any answer. You have not shown what makes you "right", you have only shown us evidence of your belief in being right.

And in regards any/every religion I suspect everyone would be the same. No-one can show they are right, they can only show their belief they are.

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