Enough with Political Correctness

[Michelle]

Acknowledging the Christmas holidays in a classroom is not proselytizing. Wearing little Christmas ball earings isn't projecting any sort of religion, but it's not allowed.

It's extremely odd to me when people make their feelings known about being ant-gay marriage, ant-abortion and so forth they are bigots. They are clearly wrong, should keep their hate speech to themselves and let people live their lives. When the same thing is done to a majority, such as Christians, people are exercising their right to free speech. When people picket the building of a mosque in their town they are bigots. When people protest a manger scene on the grounds of a mid city church they are exercising their free speech. They are objecting to religion being "shoved down their throats" at every turn.

I am a defender of free speech, even when I don't agree with what they are projecting.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Michelle

[KariW]

I know many school teachers from various states and every public school teachers has confirmed this fact. I also know quite a few people who worked at Target at the time. I don't have to prove anything. Take it or leave it for all I care.

A friend of mine who worked as a Teacher for 30+ years said basically the same thing as you pointed out with respect to Christmas celebrations.

Michelle, both you and I and thousands of Christians know these things to be true, and that is all that really matters. What makes these people angry is that we know it to be true, and we are not being intimidated into silence!! I'm with you, don't need to prove it to anyone! They only win when we don't speak up and call attention to these things. Thank goodness for Free Speech!

[aztek]

School District Bans Christmas, Easter and Jewish Holidays From Calendar Following Debate Over Muslim Request

Muslims forced Maryland school to ban Christmas because it insulted them

A Review of The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse than You Thought

Ban On School Christmas Carols Upheld

Elementary School Bans Children From Saying “Merry Christmas”

now, i do not believe for a second anyone that does not want to believe in it, will change his mind after reading this, i just want to see what retarded excuse they'll come up with to say it is not true.

p.s. there are a lot more links where these came from.

Edited July 21, 2015 by aztek

[Jack Skellington]

When their best response is to shout "Prove It!" You know you hit the mark.

You could bundle and gift wrap the evidence in Christmas paper and put a bow on it and they wouldn't open the present. It's far easier to pretend the problem doesn't exist than to dig into it. Far easier to deny any bias, particularly when the truth harms your case, so they'd rather say there is no problem. They would insist that there is no evidence of a crime while still holding the smoking gun. Prove it! As they are wiping off their fingerprints.

[Michelle]

A friend of mine who worked as a Teacher for 30+ years said basically the same thing as you pointed out with respect to Christmas celebrations.

Michelle, both you and I and thousands of Christians know these things to be true, and that is all that really matters. What makes these people angry is that we know it to be true, and we are not being intimidated into silence!! I'm with you, don't need to prove it to anyone! They only win when we don't speak up and call attention to these things. Thank goodness for Free Speech!

Being an atheist, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, to me, is the Westboro Baptist Church of Christians. I want nothing to do with them and do not want to be associated with them in any way. I believe everyone should be able to worship, or not, according to the path they choose, wthout being forced to hide it.

[+Liquid Gardens]

Wearing little Christmas ball earings isn't projecting any sort of religion, but it's not allowed.

Maybe, but as I noted there's a lot of misinformation out there, like the one you stated about Target, so I'm not really inclined to go research whether this is actually true or not. I would think Christmas ornament earrings would be okay since that is a secular expression personally, but again, employers do and should have rights too.

It's extremely odd to me when people make their feelings known about being ant-gay marriage, ant-abortion and so forth they are bigots. They are clearly wrong, should keep their hate speech to themselves and let people live their lives. When the same thing is done to a majority, such as Christians, people are exercising their right to free speech. When people picket the building of a mosque in their town they are bigots. When people protest a manger scene on the grounds of a mid city church they are exercising their free speech. They are objecting to religion being "shoved down their throats" at every turn.

This is a paragraph that could use 'some people' as far as the complaints. The issue I have is that you have put 'exercising their free speech' and 'bigotry' in opposition to each other when they are not. Everyone in your examples above is exercising their free speech; whether they are bigots or not is usually contained in that free speech, and let's be clear about the US: if someone is a bigot, America is about the best place to be one as it is anyone's right to be a bigot and to communicate bigoted ideas, you won't be/shouldn't be arrested just for that.

Your examples unfortunately don't match as well to the counter-examples; being anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, and anti-Muslim construction are justified by some people using some bigoted arguments that are sexist, anti-gays, and anti-Muslim respectively (which is not to say that all of these anti- positions are nothing but bigoted; I think the typical anti-abortion arguments are not directly bigoted against women for example). I don't think it works the other way to that extent; I don't know what bigoted arguments there are on the pro-abortion, pro-gay-marriage and pro-Muslim construction side. I'm sure there are 'some people' again as there always is, but most protests are not against manger scenes on church property, most are against manger scenes on public property and the reasons are not what I would call 'bigoted', they usually reference the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment. I'm not that up-to-date on the anti-mosque arguments, but a lot of the ones I'm aware of are kinda bigoted.

I am a defender of free speech, even when I don't agree with what they are projecting.

I am too, and I've never really seen anything you've posted that would lead me to think anything different about your stance on free speech which is great. It does however still leave me in the dark about what rights are being stomped on, but I'll assume that we were just being hyperbolic about it. I think it's not a matter of rights but of desired courtesy and respect, but as we noted in our back and forth about the Confederacy, those concepts work in both directions.

[Yamato]

Why dose the left

Because they need meds.

[Jack Skellington]

Maybe, but as I noted there's a lot of misinformation out there, like the one you stated about Target, so I'm not really inclined to go research whether this is actually true or not. I would think Christmas ornament earrings would be okay since that is a secular expression personally, but again, employers do and should have rights too.

Do you think you get to decide what is permissible based on 'the reason' a person celebrates a particular holiday? But you don't see political correctness as your motivation. What if I'm offended by jingle bell earrings? If someone looks happy and wears a smile on their face, must we determine why they are smiling, for it to be okay? Joy is okay, I guess, as long as it isn't motivated by Christ or the celebration of Jesus' birth.

[Michelle]

It does however still leave me in the dark about what rights are being stomped on, but I'll assume that we were just being hyperbolic about it.

One example, for years a fairly small town in Georgia had a drive through, secular, Christmas display that went on for several miles in the town's center city park. It was absolutely beautiful and paid for by donations from residents. People came from all around to see it. Along came the FFRF, objecting to having it on city park property and they were forced to move it out of town to a privately owned property large enough to accommodate it. Suddenly, because a few people complained, the entire city looked drab during the holiday season. In addition, tourists' dollars were lost forcing several small businesses to close because they depended on the extra income during the season. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the town at the moment.

I consider the snarky billboards the FFRF puts up during the holidays harassment of the general Christian public. A billboard to gay men saying, "Think you're gay? Grow a pair and get a woman." would be just as offensive to me. (Someone said that to my nephew once and I nearly lost it so that's what came to mind.) The public would be outraged and demand it's removal if it wasn't already torn down by an angry mob.

[KariW]

Being an atheist, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, to me, is the Westboro Baptist Church of Christians. I want nothing to do with them and do not want to be associated with them in any way. I believe everyone should be able to worship, or not, according to the path they choose, wthout being forced to hide it.

Exactly!

[Michelle]

Time to fire up 'War on Christmas' again

November 13, 2013

Want to fire a volley in the skeptics' annual War on Christmas while supporting FFRF's work in shoring up the state-church wall of separation? If so, feel free to shop till you drop as much as you care to at the Foundation's gift store to celebrate the upcoming winter solstice (the real reason for the season).

Go to ffrf.org/shop to see a full selection of freethought books (new and used), lapel pins, tote bags, music, solstice greeting cards, debaptismal certificates, lots of apparel, bookmarks, magnets, video DVDs, bumper stickers, bible warning stickers and nontracts (a "Heathen's Greeting" nontract explains the solstice).

“Most people think December is strictly for Christians and view the solstice as an intrusion, when actually it’s the other way around,” said Dan Barker, FFRF co-president and a former evangelical preacher. “People have been celebrating the winter solstice long before Christmas. We see Christianity as the intruder, trying to steal the natural holiday from all of us humans.”

Solstice cards come in 14 attractive varieties. The newest design is "Keep Saturn in Saturnalia" (celebrated Dec. 17 in ancient Rome, when masters served their slaves at a public banquet). Cards feature natural beauty from the great outdoors, along with whimsy such as cartoonist Steve Benson's "Yes, Virginia . . . There Is No God!"

- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/19262-time-to-fire-up-war-on-christmas-again#sthash.ho7Z37ER.dpuf'>http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/19262-time-to-fire-up-war-on-christmas-again#sthash.ho7Z37ER.dpuf

cont...

http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/19262-time-to-fire-up-war-on-christmas-again

[.ZZ.]

[Leo Krupe]

I know many school teachers from various states and every public school teachers has confirmed this fact. I also know quite a few people who worked at Target at the time. I don't have to prove anything. Take it or leave it for all I care.

I've noticed quite often people on this board make statements without any cites or backup, and we're simply supposed to believe them. You make a claim like people can be fired from Target for saying "Merry Christmas". I don't believe that, so I ask for evidence of it. When challenged, you say you don't have to prove anything, and you don't care whether I believe you or not.

Guess what? That puts me in the position of not believing anything you say. I know you won't care about that either, and frankly, I don't give a whit myself, because if you make statements that are allegedly fact (Target fires people for saying "Merry Christmas") without any sort of backup, then you've lost all credibility and any respect I had for you. And I'm sure you won't care about that as well. But I guess if you want to post in a place where only those who agree with you then too bad for you.

[Michelle]

My advice, Leo, get to know a few public school teachers. Being in the corner of four states I know many and they all say the same thing. I don't rely on the news for my facts.

[Carol Joy]

I know many school teachers from various states and every public school teachers has confirmed this fact. I also know quite a few people who worked at Target at the time. I don't have to prove anything. Take it or leave it for all I care.

I hear ya!

In the liberal San Francisco Calif areas, the only people allowed to celebrate Christmas inside school classrooms are people in totally Latino neighborhoods. They celebrate it freely. But no one else can - it might be offensive to the minority child who is Jewish or Muslim or HIndi or a non-believer.

At one point in time, the San Francisco Chronicle had a poll regarding the best-run nursing homes. The winner was a Japanese nursing home in Japan Town. One of the reasons that it got such high ratings is that the elderly were very comfortable with all the workers, as the workers were required to be fluent in Japanese.

In subsequent letters to the editor, it was pointed out hat all other nursing homes had people who mostly spoke Spanish - so the elderly people were uncomfortable and mis-treated, due to not getting their needs met. As someone who did elder care, I can tell you that many people ended up in nursing homes after serious surgeries, and they didn't even get the helpers to bring them water, as any and all requests they made were greeted with "No hable Angles." If you have ever had major surgery, thirst is a major component of the post-op experience. This is totally tolerated by the nursing home operators, despite laws on the books in Sacramento that anyone hired as a nursing assistant must be fluent in English, if the nursing home serves primarily English-speaking residents.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Carol Joy

[Michelle]

I hear ya!

In the liberal San Francisco Calif areas, the only people allowed to celebrate Christmas inside school classrooms are people in totally Latino neighborhoods. They celebrate it freely. But no one else can - it might be offensive to the minority child who is Jewish or Muslim or HIndi or a non-believer.

It's not just in California. Although. one would think in such a progressive state everyone would have equal rights.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

-posts removed-

Lets tone down the hostility.

[Beany]

Time to fire up 'War on Christmas' again

November 13, 2013

Want to fire a volley in the skeptics' annual War on Christmas while supporting FFRF's work in shoring up the state-church wall of separation? If so, feel free to shop till you drop as much as you care to at the Foundation's gift store to celebrate the upcoming winter solstice (the real reason for the season).

Go to ffrf.org/shop to see a full selection of freethought books (new and used), lapel pins, tote bags, music, solstice greeting cards, debaptismal certificates, lots of apparel, bookmarks, magnets, video DVDs, bumper stickers, bible warning stickers and nontracts (a "Heathen's Greeting" nontract explains the solstice).

“Most people think December is strictly for Christians and view the solstice as an intrusion, when actually it’s the other way around,” said Dan Barker, FFRF co-president and a former evangelical preacher. “People have been celebrating the winter solstice long before Christmas. We see Christianity as the intruder, trying to steal the natural holiday from all of us humans.”

Solstice cards come in 14 attractive varieties. The newest design is "Keep Saturn in Saturnalia" (celebrated Dec. 17 in ancient Rome, when masters served their slaves at a public banquet). Cards feature natural beauty from the great outdoors, along with whimsy such as cartoonist Steve Benson's "Yes, Virginia . . . There Is No God!"

- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news...h.ho7Z37ER.dpuf

cont...

http://ffrf.org/news...christmas-again

Thanks, I been looking for a source for solstice cards. But summer solstice was last month and winter solstice isn't until December, so it's not "upcoming." And I just got a bumper sticker that says "Non-judgement day is near." Also, I was not a happy camper when our annual Halloween party at work was cancelled because someone didn't want to offend any Christians. We could have a party, but had to call it Harvest Celebration, no costumes or Halloween decor allowed. Solstice was celebrated way before Christmas, and in fact was co-opted by Christians as the movement spread from urban areas and into the countryside, where those living close to the land were less likely to adopt a new religion that didn't include any of the "pagan" rituals, ceremonies, or holy days they were familiar with.

[Michelle]

Thanks, I been looking for a source for solstice cards. But summer solstice was last month and winter solstice isn't until December, so it's not "upcoming." And I just got a bumper sticker that says "Non-judgement day is near." Also, I was not a happy camper when our annual Halloween party at work was cancelled because someone didn't want to offend any Christians. We could have a party, but had to call it Harvest Celebration, no costumes or Halloween decor allowed. Solstice was celebrated way before Christmas, and in fact was co-opted by Christians as the movement spread from urban areas and into the countryside, where those living close to the land were less likely to adopt a new religion that didn't include any of the "pagan" rituals, ceremonies, or holy days they were familiar with.

Seriously?!?! Did a Christian actually object or was it a politically correct person thinking for them on their behalf? Halloween is a huge celebration in the Bible Belt. It is one of the most popular holidays besides Christmas. Almost the same extreme amount of money is spent on decorations from what I see.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Michelle

[Michelle]

Thanks, I been looking for a source for solstice cards.

By the way, you're welcome.

On a side note, we had breakfast at a Cracker Barrell during a road trip last week. I was amazed to see Hallween decorations already out.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Michelle

[KariW]

Seriously?!?! Did a Christian actually object or was it a politically correct person thinking for them on their behalf? Halloween is a huge celebration in the Bible Belt. It is one of the most popular holidays besides Christmas. Almost the same extreme amount of money is spent on decorations from what I see.

Halloween is big here too - I have way more Halloween decorations than Christmas ones. In addition to Christmas and Easter, we also celebrated Halloween when I worked for the Salvation Army........ The managers in our Thrift stores were told to feature donated Halloween decorations, etc.in store front windows during October......just to bring people in.

[Yamato]

It's like 100 days early. That's an entire season of Halloween.

Christians do seem to relish in pagan holidays. Maybe because in Christianity we're always supposed to be repenting for our sins, so the pagans taught us how to party.

Christmas is a stressful time due to the commercial expectations people have of it. Back in the old old days I bet it was a special time to relax.

[Beany]

Seriously?!?! Did a Christian actually object or was it a politically correct person thinking for them on their behalf? Halloween is a huge celebration in the Bible Belt. It is one of the most popular holidays besides Christmas. Almost the same extreme amount of money is spent on decorations from what I see.

Someone objected to the pagan aspect of halloween/samhein, we never did figure out who. I was a little ticked off because i am pagan and no one worried about offending me. My point is, though, that the door swings both ways. I will say the Jehovah's witness people scurried backwwards down the walk and halfway down the street and never came back when i told them i was a witch. Pretty sure i was at the top of their prayer list for quite a while.

[Beany]

It's like 100 days early. That's an entire season of Halloween.

Christians do seem to relish in pagan holidays. Maybe because in Christianity we're always supposed to be repenting for our sins, so the pagans taught us how to party.

Christmas is a stressful time due to the commercial expectations people have of it. Back in the old old days I bet it was a special time to relax.

It's a wonderful time to connect with our ancestors. I always build an altar for them and include photos and things they liked. A cigar for my grandad, coffee for my mom, stuff like that. This year, thanks to something michelle said, I'm going to invite my southern slave owning ancestors to the altar for the first time, michelle, could you suggest some items to place on the altar to make them feel at home?

[Beany]

By the way, you're welcome.

On a side note, we had breakfast at a Cracker Barrell during a road trip last week. I was amazed to see Hallween decorations already out.

Love all souls day, it's the time of year when the veils between the world thin and reality shifts slightly. The same thing happens with the tibetan Buddhist hungry ghost ceremony and the day of the dead celebrations.