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Waspie_Dwarf

Hawking backs venture to listen for aliens

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toast

As an example of this sort of thing, consider Virgin Galactic.

Virgin Galactic offers services/products, SETI dont.

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Rolci

Good luck finding anyone in that "majority".

The truth is that most of believe there is alien life, we just don't believe the scammers and con artists who take videos of puppets at windows, misinterpret paintings or whiners on youtube crying about NASA covering up obvious rocks or motherships feeding off the sun as evidence of alien life.

Indeed, there are those few that will finally admit, or have come to the point that they had to admit in the past that, yes, there is probably life out there somewhere, possibly even widespread, but no intelligent life. These folks are a slightly different category. These ones actually believe that the emergence of intelligence is something that's allowed for by the laws of physics, yet it's somehow special to Earth.

In their minds, they see endless billions of planets with all sorts of life roaming them, but somehow, throughout billions of years, the forces of evolution on them have somehow managed to avoid the development of the intellect, of consciousness. They choose to believe this in spite of the most obvious thing in the world, namely that there is a force in the universe, so far not discussed by science, but staring all of us in the face.

This force, that drives physical systems into states of higher and higher complexity (which flies right in the face or the first law of thermodynamics, although certainly not violating it), has been at work right from the moment the Universe was born. It transformed an energy soup into a buzzing world of particles, rather than leave it as it was. How? You say, temperature dropped, and the condensation was a direct consequence of the laws of physics. Ok, we'll get back to that. Then, instead of having a world of hundreds of different particles, which was orders of magnitude more exotic than an energy soup, turned into even more exotic structures, atoms, and eventually, with the addition of heavier elements, into a wide variety of molecules. For which, of course, you needed to have laws governing their bondage, whether it would be covalent, ionic, metallic, etc. Why there would be laws governing atoms bonding in different ways is another question. When did these laws form exactly, or did they exist right from the beginning, even though there was no sign that atoms will ever exist? Why would a law for atom bondage exist in a universe that has never had atoms?

Finally this mysteriouss force results in the emergence of life out of the lifeless. Another unavoidable consequence of the laws of physics? Or an accident? If all just an accident, then where exactly do results end and accidents begin? Particles, atom, molecules, stars, galaxies and planets are all necessary results that could be predicted right from the Big Bang, if all the laws are known, but life, evolution, intelligence and conciousness are all on the other side of an arbitrary line drawn by God knows whom, and readily accepted and embraced by all the rest without question? Is it really that hard to see the pattern, that the Universe is all about creating higher and higher orders of complexity, which then become platforms for even further complexity to be built upon? No atoms without particles. No molecules without atoms. No life unless matter exists. No self-aware life without complex biology (central nervous system). Also, how hard is it to notice that each of the steps are universal, not restricted to "special", "privileged" regions of space? You have galaxies all across space and time. An endless sea of stars and planets.

It took time for humans to realize what a galaxy is, that there are many of them. It took even more time to find exoplanets. Not to say they didn't exist until we found them. Just like it will take time to find life. And that includes all the intelligent life. The obvious question is, why haven't they found us?

And this leads to the next step. Or did you honestly think that you are the final product, the peak accomplishment of complexity in the universe? Do you really think that after producing life, intelligence and self-awareness, and all that it comes with - culture, arts, history, technology, politics, etc. - the Universe has all of a sudden run out of ideas for further complexification? Think about it for just a second. Where would an intelligent race evolve? What's the next step after self-reflection? Keep in mind that each step was unimaginable from the perspective of the previous level of achievement. The buzzing of life, with features like evolution, natural selection, spreading, competition, diversification, etc. is infinitely more exotic compared to a lifeless, dead universe, governed mostly by gravity, mostly just stuff spinning and orbiting. And human life, in turn, is wildly different from what the "laws" of evolution dictate. We have emotions like love and compassion. Raising disabled children, spending resources on the elderly, are polar opposites of what natural selection has been trying to do for billions of years, and we simply override it, perpetuating less-than perfect gene pools, all in the name of love, which is what exactly?

It is open for speculation what the next step is, but it's likely to involve exopolitics, concepts like Star Trek's "prime directive". Any sufficiently civilization will have come to the point of recognizing the importance of a delicate system of protocols, and even though it is possible that a few species will develop intergalactic travel before developing such systems of protocols, or the morality they're based on (funny we should have that, that the universe even produced something of that sort), there will be those civilizations that will have attained these higher levels of moral values in conjunction with the abilities to enforce them as deemed necessary, providing protection to infant civilizations like ours. Which would include a serious limitation of contact from outside, possibly even a shield filtering artificial external signals from the natural background. All to allow a natural unfoldment of our own evolution, so it is uninfluenced, original and unique. Obviously they have a much better understanding of the importance of the diversity of life, and complexity in general, as, possible, some kind of purpose the Universe seems to have. Indeed, why the complxifcation? And why the embarrassing lack of the acknowledgement of the obvious in our sciences?

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Emma_Acid
These ones actually believe that the emergence of intelligence is something that's allowed for by the laws of physics, yet it's somehow special to Earth.

Can you give me an example of someone saying this?

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LV-426

So are you saying that in the future when we humans explore planets around other stars, that will be our only motive?

I know we have not had a glorious past when it comes to exploration here on Earth, but are we forever condemned by that past?

Or might we learn from our past, and when (if) we come across other species, do it for the right reasons?

Average people such as us? I'd guess we could possibly have good intentions.

Governments, military and global corporations that will likely have a huge say in future space exploration, I'd go with the usual... greed, power and complete lack of vision...

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Anomalocaris

They already know we are here, the more advanced ones anyway, and I believe they have already been here. Too many reports from reputable people. If this were a murder trial you would find yourself on death row because of the eye witnesses and other evidence. Good news the ones that have been here so far don't seem to want to kill us but others might.

I'm all for listening just not reponding.

Many of the so-called "close encounters" (third and fourth kind) were during the last century. I think they were influenced by science fiction (a genre of fiction which was going through its golden age in those days)

corriere_cennina.jpg

The same applies to Sitchin and von Daniken. Probably their "hypothesis" were influenced by classic science fiction authors such as Lovecraft.

Cthulhu_sketch_by_Lovecraft.jpg

Lovecraft%2C_Mountains_of_Madness.jpg

Edited by Anomalocaris
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CBbeachbum

Here's a thought...what if 'ET' has been here all along? Has anyone thought of the possibility that ET has evolved on OUR planet? Humanity is only a pin point on the evolutionary time line. Who's to say that other sentient, intelligent species have not evolved, and survived thru any one (or more) of the mass extinctions planet Earth has been thru. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer that we are not alone in the universe, I just think we should focus our resources on the fact that they (ET) may have been here for a lot longer than we have been, and humanity is to arrogant, and nieve to accept that possibility.

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Derek Willis

Virgin Galactic offers services/products, SETI dont.

I am not talking about SETI. I am talking about the companies associated to the Breakthrough Listen project - i.e. Facebook and the other companies that Yuri Milner has shareholdings in. It's called corporate sponsorship.

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Derek Willis

Average people such as us? I'd guess we could possibly have good intentions.

Governments, military and global corporations that will likely have a huge say in future space exploration, I'd go with the usual... greed, power and complete lack of vision...

I don't take an entirely pessimistic view of governments, the military and global corporations. We will have to differ on that point.

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Anomalocaris

What other methods of communication are you thinking of?

I don't know, maybe Ouija boards :w00t:

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Anomalocaris

They are already here on Earth but it's nice to know scientists are finally waking up to the reality of extraterrestrials.

Charlie Sheen, Miley Cyrus and people from reality shows don't count dude :hmm:

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Gomar

Listen all you want, there are no alien signals, Monoliths, UFOs, probes, worm-holes, and the like.

Suppose aliens did sent signals 50m years ago, but the dinos ruled the Earth back then. Ok, by now they are extinct or dead from disease or wars, so no more signals.

The distances are just far too great between habitable planets to visit each other. If there had been possible, Earth would have been colonized along time ago.

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PersonFromPorlock

Outside of science fiction, are there any scenario where the collosal cost of mounting an interstellar invasion could possibly be worth it ?

We don't know that the cost would be colossal: once developed, interstellar travel might end up costing five cents per parsec/ton.

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Shouldthisexist

Listen all you want, there are no alien signals, Monoliths, UFOs, probes, worm-holes, and the like.

Suppose aliens did sent signals 50m years ago, but the dinos ruled the Earth back then. Ok, by now they are extinct or dead from disease or wars, so no more signals.

The distances are just far too great between habitable planets to visit each other. If there had been possible, Earth would have been colonized along time ago.

I love a big bowl of assumptions and speculating in morning.

How do you know a alien life span? Are you familiar with et biology? Where did you receive knowledge of their wars? Also theoretically wormholes are possible or would you like to prove Einstein and the like wrong?

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Shouldthisexist

We don't know that the cost would be colossal: once developed, interstellar travel might end up costing five cents per parsec/ton.

What if that's planets GDP is only 5 dollars a year?

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Rlyeh

Here's a thought...what if 'ET' has been here all along? Has anyone thought of the possibility that ET has evolved on OUR planet? Humanity is only a pin point on the evolutionary time line. Who's to say that other sentient, intelligent species have not evolved, and survived thru any one (or more) of the mass extinctions planet Earth has been thru. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer that we are not alone in the universe, I just think we should focus our resources on the fact that they (ET) may have been here for a lot longer than we have been, and humanity is to arrogant, and nieve to accept that possibility.

Besides they wouldn't be ET, where are they hiding? With Big foot and the loch ness monster?
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BeastieRunner

Does this mean the hoaxers will be emboldened?

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seeder

We don't know that the cost would be colossal: once developed, interstellar travel might end up costing five cents per parsec/ton.

That still doesnt alter the fact that at approaching light-speed any object gains infinite mass.... And you need to travel at the speed of light for any meaningful exploration

We also know, that the human body, for example, isnt suited to prolonged stints in space... perhaps this is the same for any biological entity

ETA: Plus, 'they' would have to stop... to be able to visit any planet, how do you stop something going at the sped of light, with infinite mass?

.

Edited by seeder
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Anomalocaris

We don't know that the cost would be colossal: once developed, interstellar travel might end up costing five cents per parsec/ton.

How about the large amount of raw materials and energy needed to build a fleet, not to mention the vast distances of space. I think a full-scale invasion is an expensive, dangerous and impractical way. There must be others, such as leave us without electricity.

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Anomalocaris

That still doesnt alter the fact that at approaching light-speed any object gains infinite mass.... And you need to travel at the speed of light for any meaningful exploration

We also know, that the human body, for example, isnt suited to prolonged stints in space... perhaps this is the same for any biological entity

Yes, no matter how advanced they are. If they are physical beings, then they may be affected by the laws of physics just as us.

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Shouldthisexist

That still doesnt alter the fact that at approaching light-speed any object gains infinite mass.... And you need to travel at the speed of light for any meaningful exploration

We also know, that the human body, for example, isnt suited to prolonged stints in space... perhaps this is the same for any biological entity

ETA: Plus, 'they' would have to stop... to be able to visit any planet, how do you stop something going at the sped of light, with infinite mass?

.

Worm holes and gravity hopping neither are faster than light per say.

Also gravity hopping is how the cosmologist explained it. I can't remember the correct term I apologize I will search for it.

ETA: I'm a little rusty, FTL requires infinite energy correct?

Edited by Shouldthisexist
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

And who told you that "I'm doing" ufology?

Things like this perhaps: :whistle:

Makes me wonder, is Mr. Hawking totally oblivious of the Disclosure Project, the Rockefeller Initiative, the Citizen Hearing on Disclosure, the Congressional Hearing Initiative, CE5 Initiative, etc. etc.

Makes me wonder why you try to imply that you are not into ufology ?

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

Outside of science fiction, are there any scenario where the collosal cost of mounting an interstellar invasion could possibly be worth it ?

We don't know that the cost would be colossal: once developed, interstellar travel might end up costing five cents per parsec/ton.

Invading a single country here on Earth is very costly, so I think we can safely assume that invading a planet in another solar system would be rather expensive.

Why don't you answer my initial question and give me a scenario where it would make sense to launch an interstellar invasion of Earth ?

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badeskov

You will find, my friend, that the majority on this forum are still living in the dark ages, with a geocentric world-view. They honestly believe that the Earth is the centre of the Universe.

By all means of respect, but you have no idea what you are talking about - at all.

That life started here in OUR cluster, OUR galaxy, OUR solar system, OUR planet, that we are somehow special, and life is unique to this one planet in the cosmos.

You can't point to anybody saying that, that is all made up in your mind for whatever delusional reason that can feed your system of belief. The facts are against you.

You don't need to read too much into panspermia and extremophiles to realize how resilient life itself is, and how easy it is for it to spread from planet to planet.

It is a theory, but we don't know.

Especially if you look at the sudden technological developments biological entities like humans are capable of making. 100 years ago we were fighting ourselves, only dreaming of space flight, since then we have conquered it, sent man to the Moon (arguably), sent probes outside the solar system, and even pessimistic guesses would put man on Mars within 50 years, more like 15-20. Which makes no difference on a cosmic scale, on which even from the emergence of humans to our modern civilization is merely a blink of an eye.

And the history of those developments are very well documented.

Yes, we will be spreading more life into the cosmos. What does that mean in 100 years? Colonies across the solar system. 1000 years? The galaxy charted and colonized. 10.000? Can't even guess. 100.000? And what's 100.000 years on a cosmic scale? We will have spread life all across the galaxy, even without breaking the light speed barrier. Imagine 100.000 years with us having perfected faster than SOL travel and/or teleportaion, and genetic engineering to grow crops in new environments.

We don't know that, We have indications that point in all directions.

The universe will be teeming with life.

We don't know that.

At least, according to all the smart folks on this forum. Who believe that it all begins with us, right here, right now. Because we are special. And we are the very forefathers of all life that will ever exist in the entire Universe in the following billions of years. And nothing similar could possibly have happened in the past few billions of years that we may be a product of.

What utter nonsense. You are clearly very ignorant of any science being performed and seem to be living in your own, little isolated world of ignorance.

It takes quite a quantum leap for folks to break away from the geocentric "it all stars with us" idea. Many are not ready for such a leap just yet. Typical flat-earthers.

Yes, and you are one of them obviously. 95% of people here seem to be perfectly fine and have been with accepting the possibility of life elsewhere in the Universe. Which rock have you been living under?

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Anomalocaris

Worm holes and gravity hopping neither are faster than light per say.

Also gravity hopping is how the cosmologist explained it. I can't remember the correct term I apologize I will search for it.

ETA: I'm a little rusty, FTL requires infinite energy correct?

Just an analogy, I remember when Hawking was speaking about the improbable possibility of time travel into the past, because we have not been visited by "tourist time travelers" (and that you can't travel to a date, before the time machine was built).

We could apply a similar logic with wormholes? And if these things exist, Why don't we have been visited by aliens?

Unless, we count UFOs as proof of that lol

By the way! I don't know almost nothing about these things, so I come here to learn (ignore the jokes)

Edited by Anomalocaris
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Rolci

blahblah

Cheers,

Badeskov

Yes, this topic is about INTELLIGENT life, as the "I" in SETI indicates. But whether you believe that life started here, or that it exists everywhere but we're the only intelligent ones, makes no difference really, both make you a geocentric flat-earther.

Would be interested in your explanation for the obvious increasing of complexity in the universe, instead of the degradation suggested by thermodynamics (as outlined in my post #77), and why science pretends it doesn't exist.

Edited by Rolci

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