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Waspie_Dwarf

Hawking backs venture to listen for aliens

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Derek Willis

If you discount the Vatican, it is indeed North Korea that has the largest army in relation to it population. Eritrea is second and Israel is third.

Imagine being asked this question: "In what category does the Vatican come first, North Korea second, Eritrea third, and Israel fourth?" I bet that would be difficult to answer.

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Leo Krupe

So... what if after all the searching has been done... and we find nothing? What next?

Shouldn't that be the default position? That we find nothing? We've found nothing (Wow! notwithstanding) in over 50 years, although that of course doesn't mean we couldn't find a genuine signal tonight. But to expect to find something? Nah.

"Don't believe in miracles -- rely on them" is cute and funny, but not a real way to live your life.

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Lilly

Shouldn't that be the default position? That we find nothing? We've found nothing (Wow! notwithstanding) in over 50 years, although that of course doesn't mean we couldn't find a genuine signal tonight. But to expect to find something? Nah.

You have to keep in mind that despite the time SETI has been listening the scope of what they're listening to is utterly vast...humongously vast to be exact.

Take a look here: http://www.setileague.org/askdr/howmuch.htm

Basically, we've barely scratched the surface.

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psyche101

Dont know what your on about, Telepathy is not remote viewing and neither is it anything else...

It strikes me as rather similar, particularly the experiments that Edgar Mitchell did on the way to the moon - the mind has to see things that are away from it. The point I was making is there has been 20 million spent on that aspect - the brain functioning in a remote capacity which I would argue telepathy is. We have managed to quash certain myths like the old we use 10% of our brain myth, but nothing at all indicates a remote connection from the brain to anything at all, physical or virtual.

Take the word for its literal meaning, tele = Long range...Pathy = empathy...put them together and you have telepathy, is their some confusion here?

Perhaps its my upbringing or perhaps you are diliberatly misconstruing my intent but no matter...it is a subject that has travelled down the ages where many folks, my imediate circle included, have reported incidences of spontaneous telepathy, knowing when a loved one was in trouble, some one showing up out of the blue but expected or even just thinking a thought or name and seeing them after a great absence, all in the realms of telepathy....

There is no confusion, long range is not a brain function, it is completely unrelated to empathy.

It is a long running urban myth. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Many are the times the missus and I have called to each other for help and been answered without knowing why or how we 'knew'..or one of my children needing support etc....

Its an avenue that remains ignored but shows good possibilities..woo or not.

Yes, I used to do that with my wife too. I know someone who saw an ambulance go past, and they had a dreaded feeling it was for a family member - and they were right. What we do not understand, see and therefore cannot tase into account is the indicators our brain picks up on without having to alert us. We have seen this in animals, like the Elephants that appear to paint or the horse that appears to count, these very subtle indicators are picked p and our synapses carry them away without having to alert us to any immediate danger or advantage. You might see a colour, smell a smell and being at a certain time of day under a certain condition might trigger a strong shared memory that makes both brains remember that moment in time at once, if children are involved at a certain time things that happen in your life will send of certain alerts - that child should have been home 10 minutes ago, or that child likes to have a Milo at 3:15 pm, little things that can catalyst and form convergent thoughts. Being more alert to our surroundings seems more likely to be the key to understanding that phenomenon. 20 million on paranormal claptrap only went backwards. We need to dumb these things down a bit, we often overthink a problem - take the entire ETH for example. The pioneers who drafted that ideal were speaking about Martians and Venusians, it was not science the developed the ETH into an interstellar tall tale, it was us exaggerating and making compensations to keep an idea alive simply because the ideal is titillating.

Mind you, many are the times where no such incidences occurr too but then again, we are all at a loss as to how such things work, we only know that in some instances, what we describe as telepathy does in fact occure...

No it does not occur, where you are going wrong is implying that correlation implies causation. That is an assumption and proven to not be the case in many instances.

A worthy area of exploration and as such one which may provide the means for reaching out to the stars so to speak....

Not if we are going backwards to begin with. I am still not sure where you were going with the crystal thing.

(*wheres the darn spell check gone again?)

Mine seems to be working OK.

Edited by psyche101
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DONTEATUS

If E.T. ever lands I sure Hope Hawkins is alive ! :alien::tu:

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psyche101

And who told you that "I'm doing" ufology?

You did Rolci. You have gone so far as to surmise exopolitics.

Let me explain further:

You will find, my friend, that the majority on this forum are still living in the dark ages, with a geocentric world-view. They honestly believe that the Earth is the centre of the Universe. That life started here in OUR cluster, OUR galaxy, OUR solar system, OUR planet, that we are somehow special, and life is unique to this one planet in the cosmos.

Not a poster has ever said that, one poster said that intelligent life will be extraordinarily rare, and that we are unlikely to ever see it, and that we just may be "it". And that poster said "we have no proof otherwise" which is a correct statement, and one an honest person must agree with.

And that poster has not been seen here in quite a while now. The vast majority of people are happy to accept that other life is likely to exist, but we have no proof.

And science is looking for that proof right here on earth as well as in space. The search for that moment of genesis will act on the odds for ET life as well. What science is trying to prove right now is life was not a "spark" that happened"once" it is likely life bloomed all over the earth, and probably popped up in many places at once, or close to each other.

If that can be proven, then we know life can arise more than once, and that therefore greatly increases the odds of alien life existing in the Universe.

Life can not "find a way no matter what" Nice romantic thought we had once upon a time, but that information has been superseded. Life needs water, life needs heat, life needs friendly elements like carbon to work with. Heck, you will even need the right solar system. Ones we have found filled with Gas GIant obviously had more gas than solid matter to work with, and did not get the nice arrangement we see, what with the sun pulling in heavy objects to create the local rocky planets, the gases not as heavy coalescing into the gas giants, and the smallest remnants affected by the Sun's gravity forming small icy bodies on the outer. A Gas giant will not produce life, nor will a snowball trailing on the edge of the solar system the resources for life are just not there.

Our planet IS special in that we are lucky enough to be here and exist on it. That is not to say thousands upon thousand of others exist in this very galaxy, which in turn does not guarantee a higher intelligence, or that these potential life forms are within a traversable distance. It would appear not, but Professor Hawking is putting that question to the test. Is there anybody out there?

You don't need to read too much into panspermia and extremophiles to realize how resilient life itself is, and how easy it is for it to spread from planet to planet. Especially if you look at the sudden technological developments biological entities like humans are capable of making. 100 years ago we were fighting ourselves, only dreaming of space flight, since then we have conquered it, sent man to the Moon (arguably), sent probes outside the solar system, and even pessimistic guesses would put man on Mars within 50 years, more like 15-20. Which makes no difference on a cosmic scale, on which even from the emergence of humans to our modern civilization is merely a blink of an eye. Yes, we will be spreading more life into the cosmos. What does that mean in 100 years? Colonies across the solar system. 1000 years? The galaxy charted and colonized. 10.000? Can't even guess. 100.000? And what's 100.000 years on a cosmic scale? We will have spread life all across the galaxy, even without breaking the light speed barrier. Imagine 100.000 years with us having perfected faster than SOL travel and/or teleportaion, and genetic engineering to grow crops in new environments. The universe will be teeming with life.

You ARE reading too much into extremophiles and Panspermia. They are theories. Nothing more. Good theories I grant, but nothing more. And that is a biological process, confusing it with technology seems to not only confuse those reading your thoughts, but it would honestly seem yourself. You seem more in knots than anyone reading your ideas.

You are thinking small, progress is NOT limitless, everything has a wall. Yes we went from horse and buggy to rockets in 100 years, that means we are clever, nothing more, It does not mean we will get faster and smarter every hundred years. You can get from point A to point B in 4 seconds say. 100 years ago it probably took 30 seconds. One day we will reach the limit. At some point the fastest speed will be achieved,and we have that Universal speed limit already - 186,000 mps.

At least, according to all the smart folks on this forum. Who believe that it all begins with us, right here, right now. Because we are special. And we are the very forefathers of all life that will ever exist in the entire Universe in the following billions of years. And nothing similar could possibly have happened in the past few billions of years that we may be a product of.

Not a single person here expresses that thought, you totally made that up, and the only way you can come to such an erroneous conclusion is either stick your head under a rock for a couple of decades, or give yourself over to the woo websites, UFOlogy is the only source of this pathetic misconception.

The past few billion years have been rather tumultuous,and the Universe has been busy building Suns and Solar Systems. We don't even understand Proto Life yet. There is no reason to insist that life began a very long time ago or that the conditions for life have always been here and conducive. What we do have is a pool of one that can tell us what parameters life requires. It can tell us where life can exist, and where it cannot, and how it will grow.

There are entire threads here - about 4 of them - that argue the most likely form other life will have to take to fit out understanding of life. That also proves you are 100% wrong in your assumptions and that every person on this board insist life will exist, not the claims you make.

And that too says you are "doing UFOlogy" No other group is inane enough to make such wide ranging and entirely incorrect assumptions which can be proven incorrect without expending much effort at all.

It takes quite a quantum leap for folks to break away from the geocentric "it all stars with us" idea. Many are not ready for such a leap just yet. Typical flat-earthers.

You are the flat earther here, not knowing what everyone is saying around you. You have been challenged to link or copy such a statement from ANY member on this board and you ignored the post.

Because you know you cannot fulfill your claim. It is an outright lie. And I double Dog Dare you to prove me wrong, in fact, I would consider it a favour!!

NOBODY said "it starts with us", NOBODY implied that. You completely made it up.

I know you are not living under a rock Rolci, but the way you have advocated illegal substances in the past, you might as well be. It certainly has affected your judgment and your ability to research, heck man, all the information I gave you is right here at UM under your nose. You did not even have to go looking for information that soundly refutes your personal ideals.

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Leo Krupe

You have to keep in mind that despite the time SETI has been listening the scope of what they're listening to is utterly vast...humongously vast to be exact.

Take a look here: http://www.setileagu...kdr/howmuch.htm

Basically, we've barely scratched the surface.

Oh, Lilly, I agree. In fact, 55 years isn't long enough to even begin searching one square foot of a small lakefront beach on Earth, if you get my meaning. All I'm saying is we've yet to find evidence of alien life, and I don't think I'd be putting a lot of money down in Las Vegas thinking we will anytime soon.

And as my "out," I also said we may find it tonight. So who knows? I'm sure hopeful, and I wish we would. I'm just keeping my expectations realistic, that's all.

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psyche101

If E.T. ever lands I sure Hope Hawkins is alive ! :alien::tu:

Mate, I would not be totally surprised if he is the one that finally breaks that big question.

Comms is the way to go for first contact :tu:

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psyche101

Here's a thought...what if 'ET' has been here all along? Has anyone thought of the possibility that ET has evolved on OUR planet? Humanity is only a pin point on the evolutionary time line. Who's to say that other sentient, intelligent species have not evolved, and survived thru any one (or more) of the mass extinctions planet Earth has been thru. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer that we are not alone in the universe, I just think we should focus our resources on the fact that they (ET) may have been here for a lot longer than we have been, and humanity is to arrogant, and nieve to accept that possibility.

So the fossil record - we just forget that exists??

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psyche101

Yes, no matter how advanced they are. If they are physical beings, then they may be affected by the laws of physics just as us.

Are.

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psyche101

So... what if after all the searching has been done... and we find nothing? What next?

Move to the next patch of Sky I would guess, surely the target area will be something like how Kepler approached the Exoplanets?

4fovMilkyWay-Kepler-cRoberts.jpg

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psyche101

Oh, Lilly, I agree. In fact, 55 years isn't long enough to even begin searching one square foot of a small lakefront beach on Earth, if you get my meaning. All I'm saying is we've yet to find evidence of alien life, and I don't think I'd be putting a lot of money down in Las Vegas thinking we will anytime soon.

And as my "out," I also said we may find it tonight. So who knows? I'm sure hopeful, and I wish we would. I'm just keeping my expectations realistic, that's all.

I am hoping this what appears to be more refined search has a greater chance than the random searching SETI does.

Edited by psyche101

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Leo Krupe

I am hoping this what appears to be more refined search has a greater chance than the random searching SETI does.

I can't say, as I don't know enough specifics about the Hawking search (he's got radiation named after him, isn't that enough? I have nothing named after me!), but all in all, I agree. And since this is being set up long after SETI began, it makes sense that they'd do it with the most up-to-date technology.

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seeder

Move to the next patch of Sky I would guess, surely the target area will be something like how Kepler approached the Exoplanets?

4fovMilkyWay-Kepler-cRoberts.jpg

Sure but this one is being funded by a billionaire... would another choose to sink that much money in it again?

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psyche101

Sure but this one is being funded by a billionaire... would another choose to sink that much money in it again?

I have faith that Professor Hawking would be able to utilise the funds he has best. It is going for ten years, so I suspect there will be a decent range to look at.

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DONTEATUS

Mate, I would not be totally surprised if he is the one that finally breaks that big question.

Comms is the way to go for first contact :tu:

You know we can Keep His Brain going for quite awhile, maybe thats what will Happen to all of us ?

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psyche101

You know we can Keep His Brain going for quite awhile, maybe thats what will Happen to all of us ?

They are talking about it, interesting concept. I could be a "Chappie" I reckon, it would be fun.

If death was mitigated with machinery, space travel might take on a new look too.

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TonopahRick

I believe they're out there somewhere but we may never know. But I think if they had been visiting Earth as some indicate that at least one or two would have stopped in for a beer at the local tavern.

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Whisperer

There is no confusion, long range is not a brain function, it is completely unrelated to empathy.

No it does not occur, where you are going wrong is implying that correlation implies causation. That is an assumption and proven to not be the case in many instances.

Mine seems to be working OK.

Tele means long range and thats that...

Who are you to say I am going wrong? What makes you an expert? I am right no matter how you choose to look at it it because no matter how you view it, my suggestion is entirely that, a suggestion and one with seriouse merit to me...

Simply saying some one spent 20 odd mill on a problem and found nothing of substantial worth in no way implies the parameters of their reseaerch was the only one or indeed thte correct approach to take to determine validity..it simply says that they tried and failed....

Good for you that yours is working fine...you shouldnt have any probs about it all then should you...

The more research is conducted into possibilities, the more the likelyhood of determining probable courses of action to pursue or drop...its a no brainer really....

Im done with this..moving on, what about light itself as the medium to pusue..it may also be a viable means of communicating through the vastness of space and one any being with the capability of perceiving the universe could conceivably untilize....

Im sure their are other methods to consider so why just one form of tech....probably a good way to say no, there isnt any life out there on a par with ours...a bit of a cop out I reckon...

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psyche101

Tele means long range and thats that...

Indeed, nothing to do with human beings brain functions or emotions whatsoever. A coined term to itemise a thought.

Who are you to say I am going wrong? What makes you an expert?

More experience I would say. I am an old bugger and have been watching the paranormal subject for over 30 years. Influence from my Mother and Older sister. It developed into the skeptic you see before you today.

I am right no matter how you choose to look at it it because no matter how you view it, my suggestion is entirely that, a suggestion and one with seriouse merit to me...

If you were serious, the first thing to do is attempt to falsify your own claim, that is how science looks at discoveries, the first thing they do is try to prove it wrong, if they cannot, then it stands as best answer.

Simply saying some one spent 20 odd mill on a problem and found nothing of substantial worth in no way implies the parameters of their reseaerch was the only one or indeed thte correct approach to take to determine validity..it simply says that they tried and failed....

It implies a serious effort has been expended, you implied such had not happened, it has - now you are telling me they did not do a good enough job?

With all due respect, I'll take the with a grain of salt thanks.

Good for you that yours is working fine...you shouldnt have any probs about it all then should you...

Hey, just trying to help.

The more research is conducted into possibilities, the more the likelyhood of determining probable courses of action to pursue or drop...its a no brainer really....

And that has been done, at what point do you finally be truthful to yourself and admit the ideal was just not viable?

Im done with this..moving on, what about light itself as the medium to pusue..it may also be a viable means of communicating through the vastness of space and one any being with the capability of perceiving the universe could conceivably untilize....

Moving on sounds like a good idea, you would have been better pursuing Einsteins "Spooky Action At A Distance" Quantum entanglement is as close to telepathy as nature has provided to date, and if nature provides an example, all we have to do is understand it.

Radio waves move at light speed, the medium does not have to be photonic, but could be if tightly enough packed. There is no speed advantage of moving to light, the main requirement is a massless particle here.

Im sure their are other methods to consider so why just one form of tech....probably a good way to say no, there isnt any life out there on a par with ours...a bit of a cop out I reckon...

Because that form of tech is abundant in the Universe in nature, you can "listen" to Jupiter if you want. So any alien species that is intelligent will be looking at that by default to "read" space. Our signal would be artificial and recognised rather quickly.

Who knows if intelligent life exists or not? Most likely it does, it is just that far away that even any sort of two way communication will be a major effort. That is what Professor Hawking intends to seek out.

Edited by psyche101

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Lilly

...I don't think I'd be putting a lot of money down in Las Vegas thinking we will anytime soon.

Me neither (those odds would be one hell of a long shot).

And as my "out," I also said we may find it tonight. So who knows? I'm sure hopeful, and I wish we would. I'm just keeping my expectations realistic, that's all.

No one knows...it's been quiet out there so far. But, 'so far' only tends to get one 'so far' in many instances. We'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by Lilly
typo

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Emma_Acid

Here's a thought...what if 'ET' has been here all along? Has anyone thought of the possibility that ET has evolved on OUR planet? Humanity is only a pin point on the evolutionary time line. Who's to say that other sentient, intelligent species have not evolved, and survived thru any one (or more) of the mass extinctions planet Earth has been thru.

Well then they wouldn't be "ET" then would they?

I just think we should focus our resources on the fact that they (ET) may have been here for a lot longer than we have been, and humanity is to arrogant, and nieve to accept that possibility.

I assume you mean "not to accept that possibility". And it would be empty-headed to consider any sci-fi scenario (especially one that has no evidence) as a possibility. You just can't live your life like that.

Would be interested in your explanation for the obvious increasing of complexity in the universe, instead of the degradation suggested by thermodynamics (as outlined in my post #77), and why science pretends it doesn't exist.

Science doesn't pretend this. You just haven't done your research.

I have no idea what this "force" is you mention in your post. But the evolution of complex life does not "fly in the face of the first law of thermodynamics".

The first law merely states that energy can only be transferred, not destroyed. This has nothing to do with complex life.

The second law states that a system will always strive to achieve maximum entropy. This might be what you're referring to. And this has been thoroughly looked at by scientists.

Complex life helps a system redistribute energy more efficiently than non-life (or simple life). The second law completely supports the idea of the rise of complex life. This is not particularly controversial - you just haven't bothered doing any leg work to actually become informed in the subject you're talking about.

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Shouldthisexist

Light speed requires infinite energy. Beyond light speed nothing makes sense any more. It could be argued that beyond light speed, mass and energy become negative. More likely, because of the maths involved, they become imaginary (because the square root of a negative number is imaginary). Either way, it ain't going to happen!

Wasn't that the beauty of the Higgs boson particle? It gave a faint glimmer of hope for FTL. If the Higgs field is what allocates mass to particles then you could in theory find a way to cancel out the field and become massless right? Also i am not meaning to down play the Higgs boson it's a huge break through for more than FTL.

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Silver Surfer

Didn't hawking just say not to look for extra terrestrials as they will eat us. Fair enough tho humans eat everything they see.

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Derek Willis

Wasn't that the beauty of the Higgs boson particle? It gave a faint glimmer of hope for FTL. If the Higgs field is what allocates mass to particles then you could in theory find a way to cancel out the field and become massless right? Also i am not meaning to down play the Higgs boson it's a huge break through for more than FTL.

The Higgs only imparts a small amount of the mass that matter has. Most of the rest of the mass is the binding energy of the gluons that hold quarks together inside protons and neutrons.

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