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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

672 posts in this topic

He's a disabled, retired caseworker for social services with five years of work history before retirement (which makes you wonder about a connection to the JS case through Harrisburg and why it took him mere hours to proclaim on his blog that the '98 decision was a collosal lapse in judgment" on Gricar's part, a phrase he repeated ad nauseum. Mere hours! The first news that JS was not prosecuted in '98 hits the news and BAM, RG was negligent.)

He's also a parliamentarian and hires himself out to do parliamentary type matters.

But I have no doubt what you say is true with social media today--not only with lawyers but also with political types and probably with unsolved disappearances of sitting DA's.....

I had to look up parliamentarian to make sure I understood what it means, this is what I found:

parliamentarian |ˌpärləmenˈte(ə)rēən|

noun

1 a member of a parliament, esp. one well versed in parliamentary procedure and experienced in debate.

2 historical a supporter of Parliament in the English Civil War; a Roundhead.

So, he hires out to debate in public forums or blogs to win the people's favor to a particular viewpoint?

I had to slap my hand and erase what my first thought was.

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Posted (edited)

Okay- now I understand where Over Yonder is! Thank you for the welcome wijg!

I am a native Pennsylvanian and worked a sales territory that covered the area Ray Gricar disappeared from. My husband is also a PSU grad and taught at University Park for over 20 years. I have witnessed what was going on Over Yonder for the last few years and would comment until I was bashed and shut down for anything I posted.

Another travesty in the state of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is Jonathan Luna. I think about his wife and children and how unfair it has been to them. I was laughed at for suggesting he was murdered!

I also want to extend a warm welcome to UM, hope you enjoy it. I agree about Jonathan Luna. I followed his case as long as I could, but before long all the forums that discussed him shut down. :(

Edited by Caramina
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Docy, I think we are facing the fact here that Patty was never really required to come up with anything. I don't think there search of the house included anything further than standing in her living room and calling out, "Ray, are you here ?" While they were all pondering the significance of Ray's searches for how to destroy a hard drive or clean one, no one even seems to have given a thought to the fact Patty had his passwords. As 2 has posted back a ways, if she was stand up innocent, they really did her no favors by immediately affording her a position of absolute prestige, untouchable, above it all.

I really want to know if that brother smoked because besides transporting his body, transporting that car to its location is another big thing she would have absolutely needed help with.

I've been really active in three other threads since I joined U-M, the Rebecca Zauha murder, Elisa Lam and the McStays (initial Sheriff's Dept.) and in each of these cases LE has been so derelict in performing any of the things that would be ordinarily logical to anyone. Then after running around displaying the IQs of monkeys in those investigations, they do finally pull themselves together enough to try and cover the tracks of their stupidity; e.g., Patty's lie detector test given 4 months later and running to the press then with proclamations of her innocence. Covering their axxs is what they always seem to be good at doing. At least two of those victims now don't have a chance at ever finding justice.

I'm afraid I am now convinced Patty did this and she's home free with it.

I've been kind of anxiously waiting to find out if he smokes too. Or anyone else close to her.

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Interesting renewed interest. Wish that you had all been here ten years ago. So far all I see just invokes 'deja vu all over again' for me. But do carry on.

So, I guess your deja vu doesn't include a youtube song link this time? :)

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I'm extremely proud to see how this forum has grown! I never expected this as my main focus was to find a spot to park and continue the discussion after TruTV ripped the rug out from underneath us. The only thing this site lacks is the ability to have several folders of threads for different avenues of Gricar theories. For example we had a Luna thread that was just for a connection between the two. One for Sandusky connections ect.

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I'm extremely proud to see how this forum has grown! I never expected this as my main focus was to find a spot to park and continue the discussion after TruTV ripped the rug out from underneath us. The only thing this site lacks is the ability to have several folders of threads for different avenues of Gricar theories. For example we had a Luna thread that was just for a connection between the two. One for Sandusky connections ect.

Most of us here (this is with one exception) seem to be pretty open to discussing any of the possibilities. I'm quizzical how subthreads would help. If someone has a break through idea or find, like the one WIJG posted of Ray entering the courthouse, I'd like everyone to know about them and discuss. That would seem to make possibilities would be even more fractured to ever be able to put together.

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Interesting renewed interest. Wish that you had all been here ten years ago. So far all I see just invokes 'deja vu all over again' for me. But do carry on.

With the exception of wijg' Jeep. Unless my memory has failed me (again), I don't recall that being raised before. The Patty stuff is well-walked ground, but one never knows if fresh eyes might spot something new. So far, no, but the renewed interest in the case is good for Ray, and it's good **here,** as opposed to another place where a single poster is the Minister of Opinion Proclaimed As Truth.

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I had to look up parliamentarian to make sure I understood what it means, this is what I found:

parliamentarian |ˌpärləmenˈte(ə)rēən|

noun

1 a member of a parliament, esp. one well versed in parliamentary procedure and experienced in debate.

2 historical a supporter of Parliament in the English Civil War; a Roundhead.

So, he hires out to debate in public forums or blogs to win the people's favor to a particular viewpoint?

I had to slap my hand and erase what my first thought was.

As I understand it, he's a member of/"expert" in parliamentary rules of order (like Roberts Rules of Order?) used in governing how groups and organizations operate. I never researched it, frankly, because it sounded deadly boring to me and my entire professional life, the thing I have detested the most is meetings, which I take it parliamentary procedure is supposed to govern. (I always found someone could have handed me five lines on half a sheet of paper and saved me several hours.) Just my opinion, of course.

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BD seems completely closed to the idea that the jeep could have parked. He is 100% insistent that it was cutting through.

I take that to mean the jeep is significant, and that it most likely parked. Because whenever he's "certain" about anything, I just assume he's full of s hit and the opposite is true.

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The question then is "who hired him?".

This is the question I've been asking for years, usually phrased as, "If he's the puppet, who is the puppeteer?" My most likely candidates at this point are either 1. Sloane, either to help Sloane cover or his own (theoretical at this point) involvement or to help Sloane who is a cog in a bigger picture or 2. someone in the more corrupt wing of the GOP political structure in Harrisburg who may be mixed up in the DPW stuff involved in the JS case.

Scenario 1 is actually the easiest to make all working parts fit with no pounding square pegs into round holes and no loose ends, IMO. Scenario 2 has big money, power, and enough whiff of conspiracy theory to be intriguing, but for me would require someone to act as a stooge-go between, perhaps Sloane.

I will say one thing, and this comes from my own sleuthing, but I'm sure others have noticed it given his identity is well known at this point.... JJ is a guy who seems to staunchly support conservative/Republican candidates and ideals, yet he's apparently a big fan of democrat Stacy Parks Miller and has been for awhile. I found no other examples of democrat causes or politicians he has supported. And you can never see an article about SPM's indiscretions these days without JJ defending her in the comments section.

That's a whole different angle on the case I've been looking at though and haven't brought up. But apparently, SPM and RG had emailed a few times on 4/14. And I've been in contact with our friend fromthedeepestjungle, and he swears he saw Gricar with a blonde around 10 AM on 4/15. Now, his lack of punctuation notwithstanding, his story in that regard has been consistent from Day 1 (I also have theories about his lack of punctuation. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know that theory... but I do believe we should not automatically dismiss what he says just because his posts are hard to understand). I had a few private exchanges with him, and if he really did work where he says he did in the 90s, then he's someone that would absolutely 100% be able to identify Ray Gricar. He did acknowledge he couldn't get a good enough look at "the blonde in the car" to identify her, but he believes it could have been SPM. In fact, the first post he ever made Over Yonder was a question about SPM.

Couple things, maybe worthwhile context maybe not. SPM ran against Madeira, who succeeded Gricar. You can take a look back at KA's manuscript for a little insight on him post-disappearance. In office, he was pretty much a major screw up (IMO) and really only saw the DA's office as a political stepping stone, radically different from Ray who wasn't a political animal.

At any rate, a lot of good Republicans began to realize they couldn't support MM for re-election long before the Dem candidate was chosen. On the boards, there was a huge swell of support for SPM once she got the Dem nod, in large part because she made a huge deal in her campaign re how Justice For RG (she didn't call it that but....) would be the centerpiece of her tenure in office if elected. On day one, she'd tear through those files!

I wasn't particularly excited about her because her reputation preceded her from her previous county and more important to me, I knew she already was personally convinced Ray had walked. (I actually abstained in the DA vote that year.)

But JJ's SPM support goes back to that context. A lot of folks saw her as the lesser of two evils. Much of her support has waned, but I guess his has remained. I'll give her points for cracking down on animal abuse and neglect in the county.

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BD seems completely closed to the idea that the jeep could have parked. He is 100% insistent that it was cutting through.

I take that to mean the jeep is significant, and that it most likely parked. Because whenever he's "certain" about anything, I just assume he's full of s hit and the opposite is true.

That's exactly how it works. Shut down conversation of anything that might have significance.

I never let him get away with it, and neither should you, insofar as the Over Yonder rules will allow.

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Okay- now I understand where Over Yonder is! Thank you for the welcome wijg!

I am a native Pennsylvanian and worked a sales territory that covered the area Ray Gricar disappeared from. My husband is also a PSU grad and taught at University Park for over 20 years. I have witnessed what was going on Over Yonder for the last few years and would comment until I was bashed and shut down for anything I posted.

Another travesty in the state of Pennsylvania, in my opinion, is Jonathan Luna. I think about his wife and children and how unfair it has been to them. I was laughed at for suggesting he was murdered!

Welcome, Cutter! Hope you'll find the digs more comfy here. You'll find a number of us are also interested in the Luna case and potential parallels/possible connections with the Gricar disappearance. Caramina's recent posts about 2004 postings at Web Detectectives might pique your interest. Hope you'll feel free to contribute here.

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BD seems completely closed to the idea that the jeep could have parked. He is 100% insistent that it was cutting through.

I take that to mean the jeep is significant, and that it most likely parked. Because whenever he's "certain" about anything, I just assume he's full of s hit and the opposite is true.

I'm sorry, although new people are certainly most welcome, this post is an example of what I've seen so often brought here. It seems like more of a personal conversation that might be best held via PM. It pretty much accomplishes just about what you are accusing this BD of doing and that's completely throwing the topic off in a different direction.

If BD is so bad (and from all that I've heard he is), can't we just leave him where he is and hope he doesn't join us here under yet a different name ?

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I'm sorry, although new people are certainly most welcome, this post is an example of what I've seen so often brought here. It seems like more of a personal conversation that might be best held via PM. It pretty much accomplishes just about what you are accusing this BD of doing and that's completely throwing the topic off in a different direction.

If BD is so bad (and from all that I've heard he is), can't we just leave him where he is and hope he doesn't join us here under yet a different name ?

You make a fair point. I'll scale back the BD talk, and try to stay on topic, and I call on others to do the same.

Now... back to the jeep... if it did in fact park, what's everyone's theory of who it would be? It certainly seems to catch Ray's attention.

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You make a fair point. I'll scale back the BD talk, and try to stay on topic, and I call on others to do the same.

Now... back to the jeep... if it did in fact park, what's everyone's theory of who it would be? It certainly seems to catch Ray's attention.

With all due respect to Vincennes, I have a different viewpoint.

Oldtimers like Saunterer and I have not called on newcomers to stop posting information that's been dissected in this case again and again. My position on the mostly Patty-centric discussion of late has been to say have at it, to answer questions where I can, and to think maybe fresh eyes will see something new the 20th cycle through. I haven't yet seen anything new yet, but am glad for the fresh infusion of interest by newcomers. Keep on with ideas, questions, comments. It's great for Ray's case to have people interested!

But I hope newer posters to the case will give oldtimers, especially those who have a ten-year perspective, the same courtesy. Maybe we see things you don't yet because we've been at it so long.

I can't agree to leave BD out of the conversation here because it's clear to me, as Super Smith says, he's a paid shill. And therefore, IMNSHO, he's a key--perhaps THE key--to figuring out what happened to Ray Gricar.

I've been through the dissect Patty stage back in 2006 after I looked at "lured to Lewisburg by a former dependent/drug dealer/whatever" theory, the suicide theory, the fugue state theory, and the walkaway theory. At that point I put Patty on the back burner and decided whatever mistakes LE made with her were not rectifiable and I didn't really see her as a suspect anyway. Through multiple cycles of Patty discussion, I never found anything persuasive enough to move her off the back burner.

But I did keep my eye on BD and his efforts to denigrate RG and argue walkaway. Because of his efforts, I began several years of intense study of witness memory and identification and began adding to an already solid base of knowledge I had regarding scent theory. I didn't offer any theories during those years, just a lot of science, and watched BD's weak efforts to destroy everything I posted, to call it voo doo science, to refer to world renowned experts by derogatory terms and to pretend that his scientific understanding of these areas far exceeded what various experts offered.

Eventually it became obvious (and this is the Reader's Digest version) that no alleged member of Mensa could post assertions so incredibly silly and that he didn't believe a word of what he was posting. His job was to discredit any poster with a reasonable non-walkaway POV and to destroy any evidence that undercut the Years In the Making and Meticulously Planned Walkaway.

That's the centerpiece of this disappearance as I see it after ten plus years of intense analysis: who is paying him to promote that theory and destroy all other possibilities, and why is that person or that entity paying him to do so?

So if wijg brings us the Jeep, and he tries to knock it down, that's significant to me and something I want to be able to hear and discuss, because it may well mean something about Gricar's disappearance.

One last thing. Over the years, BD would fight me on literally **anything** I said. I can't recall making any post he didn't break down into sections and attempt to refute, however impotently, sometimes line by line.

But never once when I or anyone else suggested the paid writer idea did he ever touch it. Just ignored any reference. Never called it absurd. Never called any of us names like "Mental Defective" or "Potted Plant" or "Twisted Sister" as was his habit when he didn't like things people posted. I just found the silence strange--and telling.

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Now... back to the jeep... if it did in fact park, what's everyone's theory of who it would be? It certainly seems to catch Ray's attention.

We probably need facts we don't have to conclude anything useful. But maybe we can rule a few things out.

Ray liked sports cars, so it's unlikely a jacked-up Jeep caught his eye because of vehicle type.

Billy Jo Leathers owned a truck, so it wouldn't have been BJL's vehicle. I believe JL also owned a truck, so we can likely rule him out. But could one of them have been a passenger?

I remember a story about Ray making a citizen's arrest while walking (why do I think it was BJL, drunk? this stuff is so long ago...). If the truck was squealing tires, going too fast for the small lot, was he considering another citizen's arrest?

I feel like it's impossible to do more than say "The Jeep caught his attention" at this point. We don't see the license plate, and we'd need LE contacts to trace that anyway...if the records could show us who owned it ten years ago.

Sorry. I got nuttin.' :-)

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Respectfully snipped - just for space /

With all due respect to Vincennes, I have a different viewpoint.

Oldtimers like Saunterer and I have not called on newcomers to stop posting information that's been dissected in this case again and again. My position on the mostly Patty-centric discussion of late has been to say have at it, to answer questions where I can, and to think maybe fresh eyes will see something new the 20th cycle through. I haven't yet seen anything new yet, but am glad for the fresh infusion of interest by newcomers. Keep on with ideas, questions, comments. It's great for Ray's case to have people interested!

So if wijg brings us the Jeep, and he tries to knock it down, that's significant to me and something I want to be able to hear and discuss, because it may well mean something about Gricar's disappearance.

One last thing. Over the years, BD would fight me on literally **anything** I said. I can't recall making any post he didn't break down into sections and attempt to refute, however impotently, sometimes line by line.

But never once when I or anyone else suggested the paid writer idea did he ever touch it. Just ignored any reference. Never called it absurd. Never called any of us names like "Mental Defective" or "Potted Plant" or "Twisted Sister" as was his habit when he didn't like things people posted. I just found the silence strange--and telling.

Point well taken ! As I've said before as a newcomer I really have appreciated the history and the flavor of the local you've brought in so often. I'm also right behind you on the "paid shill" issue going on there. That's what I was referring to a couple of times before when I asked why the direction of his protection and why to such a degree.

Part of the issue I had was that I didn't realize what "jeep" WIJG was referring to. I didn't realize it was a jeep to me it was a red truck :blush: -

So sorry, WIJG, but still it's easy not to always understand what you guys are talking about..... Not that my input is so profound when I do understand it. :blush: .... I hope that with this we can both just understand a bit where each other is coming from. :tu:

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Posted (edited)

We probably need facts we don't have to conclude anything useful. But maybe we can rule a few things out.

Ray liked sports cars, so it's unlikely a jacked-up Jeep caught his eye because of vehicle type.

Billy Jo Leathers owned a truck, so it wouldn't have been BJL's vehicle. I believe JL also owned a truck, so we can likely rule him out. But could one of them have been a passenger?

I remember a story about Ray making a citizen's arrest while walking (why do I think it was BJL, drunk? this stuff is so long ago...). If the truck was squealing tires, going too fast for the small lot, was he considering another citizen's arrest?

I feel like it's impossible to do more than say "The Jeep caught his attention" at this point. We don't see the license plate, and we'd need LE contacts to trace that anyway...if the records could show us who owned it ten years ago.

Sorry. I got nuttin.' :-)

Already admitted I usually got nuttin but I think it's UNUSUAL that direction or that "vehicle" LOL would still hold his attention even coming out , even if he knew the person, after two hours in the office, I usually don't even remember where I parked my own car.

Edit / Don't you think it's interesting though that you all have been through pages of posts here in multiple forums and the circle is back to Patty, multiple people coming around to reviewing the same person. Added note: Has Dorcy's comment regarding Ray being in the well or a cistern one that has come up before ? I know, I know, it's very simplistic but Ray being right on those premises at least for a while fits a lot of different ways. Is it possible three forums, 248 + later that people are now searching for an answer that just has to be difficult and looking past the very basic.

Edited by Vincennes

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Is there a free link to the surveillance video of the court house on Thursday or does disappeared have a lock on that? I am not sure any of it's relevant but sure would like to view the entire video. are there other entrances to the offices?

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Posted (edited)

I really have gone over the things in the Mrs. PC link and there is so much information there. For one thing it has a map which shows the distance from the CH to Patty's house. While I can see what you were saying, it does seem like it would be walkable it doesn't seem to me as if it would fit into the time frame of the 5:30 pm discussion in the park. Either to be home and then be back there by 5:30 or for Ray to have then walked home and be back to that office by 6:15 pm. It raised up my theory a notch that the location of the meeting in the park was chosen by someone who wanted to avoid a home situation.

In going over as many of these videos and the other ones I can find, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the ones retracted or incur a "violation of ownership rights" are the ones Patty appears in. Now it's funny because the ones with his daughter still play but not when Patty was one of the "stars." That's funny if her performances were actually trying to ask for the public's aid in finding Ray, her soul-mate, funny indeed. Even if it wasn't Patty (which I doubt) but some other technical legal issue, I'd want to take on anyone I could no matter how high up in channel ID to keep those videos out there searching for clues forever. I'd refilm them and repost them if it were my loved one.

I think you said you thought the late night working by RG was just avoiding going home, maybe to get away from that talk in the park. At least I thought you said that, but cannot find where now. I think that might be what is going on there. Does anyone know if they shared a room or slept apart? You would think the days events, and tomorrows plans would have been all settled with pillow talk. You would think two people who lived and worked together would have a pretty fixed routine. I am sure RG's schedule was a little more unpredictable, but PF was a clerk and most likely worked 8-5 m-f but I bet there were days they went to work together. The description of the early morning events seem so lacking detail. It's like they said a few words, and parted. I just don't know how PF can be ruled out. There is just so much lacking in what we know about this couple. Perhaps the cops have all that settled, but it just makes me shake my head.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Does anyone have the link to the interview or story where PF says she called her brother and asked him about men needing to be alone? I would like to read/view that. Thanks.

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Posted (edited)

A couple of things.

Ray had always worked a few nights a week in the evenings as did many of the ADA's, long before Patty was in the picture. I think KA talks about this. IIRC, people sometimes went in on weekends for a few hours depending on trials looming.

Thursday 4/14 Ray went to an 8 a.m. prison board meeting (at the Willow Bank Building, IIRC), so he wasn't in his office. DZ has always maintained he has a sighting of RG at the Raystown Dam in Huntingdon County later that morning, but since DZ has RG popping up everywhere and seems to believe every sighting is real, I remain skeptical. DZ says it was a sighting by "some doctor who knows Ray" ( never clear if he meant MD or PhD). When I went on a chase after this story, it seems his car was seen over there--but no indication if that means a Red Mini or THE red Mini identified by the vanity plate or by a corroborated sighting of Ray.

If you folks think the handling of PF was a mess, you should spend a year or so digging into how the alleged "sightings" were handled (or mishandled).

So he either was, or wasn't, in Huntingdon County in the morning. If you read KA's piece, you'll remember her door slamming section, where she's trying to remember/figure out if she heard Ray's door slam mid-afternoon on Thursday.

At any rate, Ray didn't keep a strict schedule that day (and since he was everyone's boss, he had no one to answer to but himself). Patty worked until 4:30 IIRC. So the walk in the park is not constrained by time w/ respect to a 6:15 return to the office.

And in fact, I understand that on nice days they frequently took a spin around the park. It's really right down the street from the courthouse, a nice little walking park where families with kids go, feed the ducks, get some exercise.

Edited by 2-B
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Posted (edited)

I want to address this talk of old timers and deja vu, circularity and the disparaging remarks by the people who have followed this for more than a decade. First of all, if you think your great knowledge has led you away from PF, I must say nothing any of you have ever said has been very convincing at all that she should not be a suspect. So either you are holding back, or you are just relying on your pet theory, your own biases, or prejudices. I ask you, do you have 10 years experience of exploring this case, or have you experienced the same thing for 10 years? I think the dismissing of PF by the police, might be based on firm and persuasive evidence, but none of that evidence has ever made its way to this forum, nor in front of my eyes. I am not trying to pick a fight, but i am not as impressed with you folks as you apparently are. Just saying. I have no vested interest personal or otherwise in the outcome. I have said this before, this is pure entertainment, or better said a diversion from my own miserable life. Vin and I deserve a little elbow room, to explore our theories even if you just think we are catching up.

Edited by mbrn30000
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Posted (edited)

Ok I have been doing a lot of thinking on the computer. The computer in the river to me rules out murder by stranger, revenge, political, drugs, Sandusky. It can only mean suicide, or murder by an intimate or the least likely walkaway staged to look like a suicide. I hate to say it, but I think I am moving suicide to the top of my list. Here is why.

First of all if someone murdered him, the computer is staging, and a stranger, hired killer would not even think about the computer being relevant, much less know he had it with him. a non intimate murderer would not have access to the house, nor know he ever expressed concern about data. most likely if he was not murdered by an intimate he had to choose to bring it with him. otherwise the killer would have had to have access to the house. So a hired killer, political killer, Sandusky killer, drug dealer killer, would have killed him and left. Even if they wanted to dump the body with Hoffa, they would have never needed to stage the computer and probably left it behind. If they even thought about taking it, they would have tossed it somewhere far away. again either the computer was tossed by RG or it is staging.

That's leaves the murder by an intimate. Let's say this intimate killed him and wanted it to look like suicide. the computer would have been left more prominently, obvious to all, as regi pointed out some time ago. If you are going to stage, then stage it properly. Odds are not good that computer would ever be found. PF and maybe Sloane might have this kind of access. But why take the chance it would never be found? why not fake a note? they could have typed all kinds of nonsense into that computer and made sure it was found. perhaps it had incriminating evidence of their evil doing, but then you expect it to be never found, not planted in a condition if found quickly would foil their plan.

That leaves suicide or walkaway. Walkaway is possible, but he would have to be even more nuts than to kill himself. no real attachment, plenty of income for life. walkaway is only possible if he has a stash of money or he lost his mind. still possible.

ok suicide Vin got me to thinking. I know, dangerous thing for me to do, especially if I am standing. But she mentioned this park conversation. Then the commissioner said they made a comment about being the perfect couple or something and PF and RG hardly looked at them. Then we have PF calling her bro not to say she thinks RG has had some terrible accident, but he dumped her so to speak. So there was trouble in paradise. perhaps PF is dodging it in a state of denial and grief. She cannot face they were falling apart. But maybe she was not the one in distress, maybe RG was. so he is thinking about suicide. he is said to be not himself even distraught. Maybe he has imagined PF not being loyal or even he is dying from something. Maybe he is depressed. Maybe early onset dementia. who knows. but something ain't right. So he makes up the story about taking the day off. Takes the computer because he knows what he is going to do, and goes to Lewisburg. wanders around waiting for the right time. Does not walk on the bridge. Look at the maps. He wanders down to the river bank..now this is the part I begin to lose sight of what might have happened. I truly think he has a gun. if he shot himself, the gun is at the bottom of the river, waist to chest deep a little upstream from the computer. I think he tossed the computer, perhaps first trying to dislodge the hard drive held by a small screw, it does not come out. But when he tosses it, it comes out falling not far from the bank, but the computer falls closer to the middle. Now did he wade out until he is near chest deep and shoot himself in the head, or did he walk up into the hills and shoot or hang himself far from the river, I don't know. But that is what I am leaning towards now. Suicide. PF probably realizes it but cannot admit it. They fought the night before. That was not the cause but just another symptom. Maybe retirement scared him. Who knows.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Thanks for sharing mbrn...

Two big things go against suicide though: the lack of a body, and the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the laptop and hard drive. As Saunterer has explained before, it's very likely the laptop and hard drive were disposed of sometime after the fact. The latter is something we cannot prove definitively, so I understand if you choose not to believe it. But Saunterer makes a very compelling case that the laptop was discarded some weeks later.

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