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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

672 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Thanks for sharing mbrn...

Two big things go against suicide though: the lack of a body, and the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the laptop and hard drive. As Saunterer has explained before, it's very likely the laptop and hard drive were disposed of sometime after the fact. The latter is something we cannot prove definitively, so I understand if you choose not to believe it. But Saunterer makes a very compelling case that the laptop was discarded some weeks later.

there can not be a compelling case the laptop was discarded weeks later, unless you think searchers on a river are infallible. they are not. it's very possible it was there April 15. One can say I cannot believe it, or point to this or that. But there was algae growth and corrosion on that hard drive. the experts do not say no way it was there that long, just the opposite. but then again, if you think it was tossed weeks later, then PF is your suspect. I just keep thinking about if you are going to stage so people will find it you will make sure they find it. It almost didn't happen. under the staging theory, the stager got real lucky. I am just saying it was some pitiful staging if that is what saunterer thinks it is. Not sure that is saunterer's theory though. my apologies if its not. I would have left the hard drive on the bank, then phoned in a tip. But mine is just a theory. I could completely wrong. I was once, it was 1980 and I said America will never elect a 3 rate actor president.

I did not address the lack of a body. the police theorize the body was ground up by the dam. not sure about that, but I think many missing people are dead, either by homicide or suicide and their bodies are never found. so a lack of a body, means he accomplished what he hoped if it was suicide, or the killer did as well. my point is, a non intimate murder makes no sense. a theory only.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Posted (edited)

duplicate

Edited by mbrn30000

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Playing a little Devil's Advocate here and please forgive me if this has been discussed before...

If he committed suicide, why not leave a note? I understand some people do not, and know this first hand as I had a family member who did not, BUT Ray knew what his family had gone through with his brother. By many accounts about Ray, he was a compassionate person and cared very deeply for both his daughter and girlfriend. I have a hard time believing he would torture his family by not at least letting them know where they could find him.

I had a friend who had terminal lung and bone cancer, who choose to take his own life at the end. He did not want his family to find him and left very detailed instructions for the authorities as to where and when to find him. I could see someone like Ray doing something like this so his family had closure.

Does anyone have any solid information about Ray's trip, the day before he disappeared, to Raystown Lake? Did he take that day or partial day off from work? What was his reason for the visit there?

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You make a fair point. I'll scale back the BD talk, and try to stay on topic, and I call on others to do the same.

Now... back to the jeep... if it did in fact park, what's everyone's theory of who it would be? It certainly seems to catch Ray's attention.

Although the Jeep is an interesting avenue, what exactly doesn't catch your attention about it? Bright orange, probably loud, with big tires and lift kit. If the occupants had any involvement they sure didn't pick an inconspicuous vehicle and surly a dangerous location to be tailing Ray.

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I want to address this talk of old timers and deja vu, circularity and the disparaging remarks by the people who have followed this for more than a decade. First of all, if you think your great knowledge has led you away from PF, I must say nothing any of you have ever said has been very convincing at all that she should not be a suspect. So either you are holding back, or you are just relying on your pet theory, your own biases, or prejudices. I ask you, do you have 10 years experience of exploring this case, or have you experienced the same thing for 10 years? I think the dismissing of PF by the police, might be based on firm and persuasive evidence, but none of that evidence has ever made its way to this forum, nor in front of my eyes. I am not trying to pick a fight, but i am not as impressed with you folks as you apparently are. Just saying. I have no vested interest personal or otherwise in the outcome. I have said this before, this is pure entertainment, or better said a diversion from my own miserable life. Vin and I deserve a little elbow room, to explore our theories even if you just think we are catching up.

You have all the elbow room you need and while I don't have 10 years I am getting up there. I have never dismissed PF personally however I've never found a viable motive for her doing it.

Pretty ballzy if it was her.

She would have had to have done it after Ray returned from the office that Thursday, been to work the next morning, while having had all evidence destroyed and the laptop and car delivered to Lewisburg.

And ask yourself why? She certainly had and hasn't had anything to gain from his death. He already paid the house off and bought her the car. Remember she was to retire with him and travel. She is still working 10 years later to my knowledge.

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Playing a little Devil's Advocate here and please forgive me if this has been discussed before...

If he committed suicide, why not leave a note? I understand some people do not, and know this first hand as I had a family member who did not, BUT Ray knew what his family had gone through with his brother. By many accounts about Ray, he was a compassionate person and cared very deeply for both his daughter and girlfriend. I have a hard time believing he would torture his family by not at least letting them know where they could find him.

I had a friend who had terminal lung and bone cancer, who choose to take his own life at the end. He did not want his family to find him and left very detailed instructions for the authorities as to where and when to find him. I could see someone like Ray doing something like this so his family had closure.

Does anyone have any solid information about Ray's trip, the day before he disappeared, to Raystown Lake? Did he take that day or partial day off from work? What was his reason for the visit there?

I have my own personal hunch that he was shopping for a boat. Trip to Lewisburg could have been for same reason. It was the start of fishing season after all.

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You have all the elbow room you need and while I don't have 10 years I am getting up there. I have never dismissed PF personally however I've never found a viable motive for her doing it.

Pretty ballzy if it was her.

She would have had to have done it after Ray returned from the office that Thursday, been to work the next morning, while having had all evidence destroyed and the laptop and car delivered to Lewisburg.

And ask yourself why? She certainly had and hasn't had anything to gain from his death. He already paid the house off and bought her the car. Remember she was to retire with him and travel. She is still working 10 years later to my knowledge.

First of all, when a lover kills another, it is not always planned. there are plenty of examples of lovers who kill lovers and they get up and pretend all is well. "she went shopping and never came home" is all too familiar. So I am back to suicide, but I never said PF would have meant to do it. It could have been passion, and now a body to get rid of. And it doesn't mean money was the cause. as I said, suicide is more viable, but if she did it, someone might have helped get ride of the body and evidence. Think she killed him for a big payday is a bit small thinking. It would have been for love and jealously by one party to another....but lets get back to suicide.

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I just find it odd they never checked Patty and Ray`s home for foul play.Patty claims she sees him in the morning, but says nothing of him coming home that night before. A blank page.

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Posted (edited)

Playing a little Devil's Advocate here and please forgive me if this has been discussed before...

If he committed suicide, why not leave a note? I understand some people do not, and know this first hand as I had a family member who did not, BUT Ray knew what his family had gone through with his brother. By many accounts about Ray, he was a compassionate person and cared very deeply for both his daughter and girlfriend. I have a hard time believing he would torture his family by not at least letting them know where they could find him.

I had a friend who had terminal lung and bone cancer, who choose to take his own life at the end. He did not want his family to find him and left very detailed instructions for the authorities as to where and when to find him. I could see someone like Ray doing something like this so his family had closure.

Does anyone have any solid information about Ray's trip, the day before he disappeared, to Raystown Lake? Did he take that day or partial day off from work? What was his reason for the visit there?

Sorry about your friend.

There is no rulebook and I think many missing people killed themselves. I think if he did it, he did not want anyone to find his body, and certainly would leave no note. I think if he did kill himself, he would have been thinking it was best for everyone. I am not sure why he did, but suicide is not often a rational decision. If you think about it, he was old and male, two risk factors. His life was in a state of change. He was retiring from 20 years of being a very high ranking man in his town. Why did he retire? Was he being threatened? Did he have some dark secret ready to come out during a re-election? Did he see his daughter living out west, a younger gf who might not really love him as signs he was not needed by either of them? again, not that his thoughts were reality or rational. nothing to look forward too? Who knows? Maybe he thought mystery was better than leaving a dramatic suicide. Idk.

Edited by mbrn30000
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Posted (edited)

MB, I'm still tossing your theory around. But I had this thought looking at the maps/photos on Mrs, PC's site. There is one close or magnified areal shot showing just the bridge and where everything landed. https://sites.google...drive-locations Something struck me about the water around each of the two bridges. Multiple statements have talked about the water being crystal clear, even though it was running high. First detective said he thought they'd be able to find Ray's body because of the clarity, enough that he could see to the rocks at the bottom. Look at the photo, the water is pretty clear in it. But what you are able to see through to in that clear water is that from the RR bridge to the auto bridge, there looks to be somewhat higher ground or masses tree roots in two large places each quite long and pretty wide and coming almost to the shape of a V pointing at the auto bridge. Now if you were going to throw something into that river to never be found wouldn't it occur to you that because of that growth it was not the primo place. If you toss it off the RR bridge, I'd be giving it a 70% chance it's not going to float down to the other bridge, I'd be afraid it would get hung up on those visible roots and debris where it would be just as visible as they are when they went to search !

It looks to me if we go back to the basics here again, the simplest way for that laptop to get in the very place where it was found is to have been dropped off the auto bridge. At night, with light traffic, I bet you could even aim it to land on the pilings where it could be/was found. I think that's just where the hard drive was tossed from too. Looks like a quite throwable distance, drop the one on the pilings and heave the other to land right on the shore. Another good spot if someone wanted it to be found, you've doubled your chances of the staging being discovered.

Something else about if this was staged. If it was, it's juvenile staging. These would not be such unique ideas that any descent type of a police interrogation shouldn't not have been able to uncover the perpetrator. Because you already know who in all of this has the most prominent personality characteristic of being juvenile. She just has happened to get away with it because of inept LE.

I'm really not saying these things to counter your suicide theory, they actually came to me a while back, I'm just talking about it now because you mentioned locations and positions. I'm still tossing the suicide around, at one point in time that was my favorite theory.

Here's Mrs. PC's entire link because I had to go back through 20 pages looking for it to add the photo, so I thought I'd just bring it forward into Part II

https://sites.google...site/raygricar/

Edited by Vincennes

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MB, I'm still tossing your theory around. But I had this thought looking at the maps/photos on Mrs, PC's site. There is one close or magnified areal shot showing just the bridge and where everything landed. https://sites.google...drive-locations Something struck me about the water around each of the two bridges. Multiple statements have talked about the water being crystal clear, even though it was running high. First detective said he thought they'd be able to find Ray's body because of the clarity, enough that he could see to the rocks at the bottom. Look at the photo, the water is pretty clear in it. But what you are able to see through to in that clear water is that from the RR bridge to the auto bridge, there looks to be somewhat higher ground or masses tree roots in two large places each quite long and pretty wide and coming almost to the shape of a V pointing at the auto bridge. Now if you were going to throw something into that river to never be found wouldn't it occur to you that because of that growth it was not the primo place. If you toss it off the RR bridge, I'd be giving it a 70% chance it's not going to float down to the other bridge, I'd be afraid it would get hung up on those visible roots and debris where it would be just as visible as they are when they went to search !

It looks to me if we go back to the basics here again, the simplest way for that laptop to get in the very place where it was found is to have been dropped off the auto bridge. At night, with light traffic, I bet you could even aim it to land on the pilings where it could be/was found. I think that's just where the hard drive was tossed from too. Looks like a quite throwable distance, drop the one on the pilings and heave the other to land right on the shore. Another good spot if someone wanted it to be found, you've doubled your chances of the staging being discovered.

Something else about if this was staged. If it was, it's juvenile staging. These would not be such unique ideas that any descent type of a police interrogation shouldn't not have been able to uncover the perpetrator. Because you already know who in all of this has the most prominent personality characteristic of being juvenile. She just has happened to get away with it because of inept LE.

I'm really not saying these things to counter your suicide theory, they actually came to me a while back, I'm just talking about it now because you mentioned locations and positions. I'm still tossing the suicide around, at one point in time that was my favorite theory.

Here's Mrs. PC's entire link because I had to go back through 20 pages looking for it to add the photo, so I thought I'd just bring it forward into Part II

https://sites.google...site/raygricar/

Keep in mind, they were not looking for anything but a body. The significance of a laptop was not known when they were searching that first week, if not months. A shiny object might be ignored. As I look at the map, I see that the river bank is the most likely place the laptop was thrown from. It is upstream from the bridge. It should be south of the bridge but it is still north. You are the one that brought me back to suicide. I think your observations about the talking at the park, and his going back to the office made me think...this is a troubled couple. I think this was a troubled man. PF might not want to admit it. I am not sure he did it in the river, but he either did and was ground up or washed out to sea, or he is up in the hills, with a noose around his neck or a self inflicted gunshot wound. I guess there is a small chance he is living in a trailer park in Arizona or florida going by Jim, or on some exotic beach, but my guess is he is no more by his own hand. Maybe the cops know more.

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The fact that Ray's laptop was discovered missing within hours is curious to me. If he used it rarely, why was it one of the first things they checked? My wife has a laptop she rarely uses. I'm not even sure where she has it stored right now. And if she went missing, my first thought wouldn't be to check and see if she had her laptop. It would be irrelevant to me because she used it so rarely.

Furthermore, why were they searching his office for his laptop after he went missing? Why would the laptop yield more clues than his home or work computer? Why were they so concerned about it?

And why would LE release the detail so early on that the laptop was missing? It's almost as if they were more concerned with the laptop than they were with Ray for awhile.

I'm convinced LE was more concerned about what was on the laptop than they were concerned with it possibly being some sort of lead. They wanted to find that laptop more more badly than they wanted to find Ray, in my opinion.

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I always wondered if "I won't be back in time to take the dog out" was some sort of code.

Not to reveal too much, but my wife and I once did some, umm, "informing" for the feds for a short time. If the s hit were ever to hit the fan, we had a method of communicating. In the scenario either of us had been kidnapped, we were to subtly convince the kidnappers to let us call the other or my parents, since they expect a call daily and would assume something was wrong if we didn't call. The code was to ask about a fake nephew or niece. "How's (so and so) doing? Heard he/she wasn't feeling to well. Maybe she misses her uncle/aunt!". At that point, either of us and/or my parents knew to contact our Fed guy, and based on the fake name, we would know which direction the distressed was heading.

Just thinking out loud.

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I just find it odd they never checked Patty and Ray`s home for foul play. Patty claims she sees him in the morning, but says nothing of him coming home that night before. A blank page.

to add

In the time line Ray and Patty were walking in the park appearing not to be a happy couple. Ray was all depressed ,after that he was seen leaving his office. Patty says nothing him of coming home that night. He could have came home and they got in a big fight. Patty had all night to figure out how to do a set up if she did kill him. She could have drove that car to Lewisburg, leaving a cigarette ash to make it would looked like he was with someone. Then plenty of time the next few days to search his home computer ,seeing how he may have wanted to know how to ease a hard drive, took his lap top back to Lewisburg and threw it in the river.

There was no scent of Ray`s ever leaving that car in Lewisburg. He did`t drive it there, the ash in the car was just another left setup.

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First of all, when a lover kills another, it is not always planned. there are plenty of examples of lovers who kill lovers and they get up and pretend all is well. "she went shopping and never came home" is all too familiar. So I am back to suicide, but I never said PF would have meant to do it. It could have been passion, and now a body to get rid of. And it doesn't mean money was the cause. as I said, suicide is more viable, but if she did it, someone might have helped get ride of the body and evidence. Think she killed him for a big payday is a bit small thinking. It would have been for love and jealously by one party to another....but lets get back to suicide.

I don't disagree with your points. If a passion killing I just don't seeing it occurring from 9pm to 8pm the next morning.

If accidental there is nothing to hide.

My "small thinking" tells me that suicide would have produced a note, a body, some known fact by family and friends that to date has not been provided.

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Keep in mind, they were not looking for anything but a body. The significance of a laptop was not known when they were searching that first week, if not months. A shiny object might be ignored. As I look at the map, I see that the river bank is the most likely place the laptop was thrown from. It is upstream from the bridge. It should be south of the bridge but it is still north. You are the one that brought me back to suicide. I think your observations about the talking at the park, and his going back to the office made me think...this is a troubled couple. I think this was a troubled man. PF might not want to admit it. I am not sure he did it in the river, but he either did and was ground up or washed out to sea, or he is up in the hills, with a noose around his neck or a self inflicted gunshot wound. I guess there is a small chance he is living in a trailer park in Arizona or florida going by Jim, or on some exotic beach, but my guess is he is no more by his own hand. Maybe the cops know more.

What is your evidence that they were only looking for a body?? Saunter squashed that notion pages ago. He was part of the searches

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The fact that Ray's laptop was discovered missing within hours is curious to me. If he used it rarely, why was it one of the first things they checked? My wife has a laptop she rarely uses. I'm not even sure where she has it stored right now. And if she went missing, my first thought wouldn't be to check and see if she had her laptop. It would be irrelevant to me because she used it so rarely.

Furthermore, why were they searching his office for his laptop after he went missing? Why would the laptop yield more clues than his home or work computer? Why were they so concerned about it?

And why would LE release the detail so early on that the laptop was missing? It's almost as if they were more concerned with the laptop than they were with Ray for awhile.

I'm convinced LE was more concerned about what was on the laptop than they were concerned with it possibly being some sort of lead. They wanted to find that laptop more more badly than they wanted to find Ray, in my opinion.

They wanted access to all his computers to check for communications to find a clue. It was reported that PF asked if they wanted his laptop too whereas they then discovered it missing. That led to the search in his office for it.

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Posted (edited)

What is your evidence that they were only looking for a body?? Saunter squashed that notion pages ago. He was part of the searches

What else would you be looking in a river for in a missing person? Everyone says the river was searched. do you think they were looking for big foot? Was the river search or not? If it was, they were looking for his dead body. If Sauter was looking for something else, tell us what he was looking for?

But the laptop does not belong in a scene when someone else killed him. It makes absolutely no sense. So RG put it there or PF or someone at PF's direction put it there. And if PF put it there, it was really bad staging. So we are back to RG put it there right before he either walked away or did himself in.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Posted (edited)

It did it too me again. I opened the thread and posted last night at 9:20. It looked to me as I was next after MBs longer post re. the suicide. Now I come in this morning and find there were about 12 other posts that hadn't come

through to me yet. :sk Does this happen to anyone else ?

Edited by Vincennes

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Already admitted I usually got nuttin but I think it's UNUSUAL that direction or that "vehicle" LOL would still hold his attention even coming out , even if he knew the person, after two hours in the office, I usually don't even remember where I parked my own car.

Edit / Don't you think it's interesting though that you all have been through pages of posts here in multiple forums and the circle is back to Patty, multiple people coming around to reviewing the same person. Added note: Has Dorcy's comment regarding Ray being in the well or a cistern one that has come up before ? I know, I know, it's very simplistic but Ray being right on those premises at least for a while fits a lot of different ways. Is it possible three forums, 248 + later that people are now searching for an answer that just has to be difficult and looking past the very basic.

The idea of Ray being in a well has come up, though not necessarily posted publicly and not in reference to PF's property as Doc suggested. (And given its location, I suspect PF's home is on Borough sewer/water.)

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The polygraph of Patty would have ruled her out. You can't fool them and you can rest assured they asked all the right questions, that would have eliminated the brother or possible accomplices also. Forget it.

The polygraphs of both Patty and the daughter would have ruled out the fact they knew he was leaving or walking away. Not that he didn't.

What would be interesting is if they Polygraphed Patty and the daughter NOW to see if either has heard from him. I don't see the man not communicating with the daughter in the long term if he walked away. It would be VERY hard for a guy who cared so much about people not to communicate with her once things cooled off if he did in fact walk away.

This biggest thing that should happen if it hasn't is they need to poly the Hells Angel that took them to an area where he claims RG is buried in a mine shaft with others and weapons, but refused to go further because he wanted immunity. They should have been all over this to polygraph him. The approach would be "we want to polygraph you to make sure you are credible" and then we will give you the immunity you want once we see you are credible. A no brainer. Standard procedure. If he passed when asked if he knew where RG was, give him what he wants (worse has happened, trust me) and have him take you to the site. If he fails, add some time to his sentence for false reports to law enforcement.

Just another one of the many things that make no sense in this case.

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Posted (edited)

I want to address this talk of old timers and deja vu, circularity and the disparaging remarks by the people who have followed this for more than a decade. First of all, if you think your great knowledge has led you away from PF, I must say nothing any of you have ever said has been very convincing at all that she should not be a suspect. So either you are holding back, or you are just relying on your pet theory, your own biases, or prejudices. I ask you, do you have 10 years experience of exploring this case, or have you experienced the same thing for 10 years? I think the dismissing of PF by the police, might be based on firm and persuasive evidence, but none of that evidence has ever made its way to this forum, nor in front of my eyes. I am not trying to pick a fight, but i am not as impressed with you folks as you apparently are. Just saying. I have no vested interest personal or otherwise in the outcome. I have said this before, this is pure entertainment, or better said a diversion from my own miserable life. Vin and I deserve a little elbow room, to explore our theories even if you just think we are catching up.

No one has disparaged you or Vincennes or tried to discourage you from discussing PF, Mbrn. I'll repeat what I said before, which is that fresh eyes may find something that hasn't been seen in previous looks at PF, so have at it. I've tried to answer questions about Patty to help out those who want to discuss that scenario.

As I also said, I put PF on my back burner (where a number of scenarios/issues reside), and that's because after umpteen exhaustive discussion cycles of Patty's involvement, I personally have found nothing concrete to move her to the top of my suspect list. At the same time, while juggling all the many, many pieces of this puzzle, I've found that other scenarios have deserved my attention and study.

I don't have a miserable life, and I'm not posting about Ray as entertainment or escapism. This was a honorable man of integrity who for more than 20 years made sure the people of this county received justice. I'm interested in making sure that what happened to Ray is known and that justice is served for him and his family. That's it, pure and simple.

Edited by 2-B
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Thanks for sharing mbrn...

Two big things go against suicide though: the lack of a body, and the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the laptop and hard drive. As Saunterer has explained before, it's very likely the laptop and hard drive were disposed of sometime after the fact. The latter is something we cannot prove definitively, so I understand if you choose not to believe it. But Saunterer makes a very compelling case that the laptop was discarded some weeks later.

I would add the Bloodhound evidence to your assessment (evidence which would be admissible in a court of law). Either Gricar arrived in the SOS lot and got immediately into a nearby car, or he did not drive the Mini into the lot at all. That is what the scent evidence tells us, and why the BPD chose to go with the abysmal record of witness ID in missing person cases over the accuracy rate of Bloodhound evidence, I will never understand.

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What else would you be looking in a river for in a missing person? Everyone says the river was searched. do you think they were looking for big foot? Was the river search or not? If it was, they were looking for his dead body. If Sauter was looking for something else, tell us what he was looking for?

But the laptop does not belong in a scene when someone else killed him. It makes absolutely no sense. So RG put it there or PF or someone at PF's direction put it there. And if PF put it there, it was really bad staging. So we are back to RG put it there right before he either walked away or did himself in.

As I also pointed out pages ago, searchers were told to look for anything, *anything* that might be related to the disappearance, and returned items like a hard drive for a desk top computer and a brown shoe, among other things. If I weren't late for an appointment already, I'd find the article.

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Posted (edited)

No one has disparaged you or Vincennes or tried to discourage you from discussing PF, Mbrn. I'll repeat what I said before, which is that fresh eyes may find something that hasn't been seen in previous looks at PF, so have at it. I've tried to answer questions about Patty to help out those who want to discuss that scenario.

As I also said, I put PF on my back burner (where a number of scenarios/issues reside), and that's because after umpteen exhaustive discussion cycles of Patty's involvement, I personally have found nothing concrete to move her to the top of my suspect list. At the same time, while juggling all the many, many pieces of this puzzle, I've found that other scenarios have deserved my attention and study.

I don't have a miserable life, and I'm not posting about Ray as entertainment or escapism. This was a honorable man of integrity who for more than 20 years made sure the people of this county received justice. I'm interested in making sure that what happened to Ray is known and that justice is served for him and his family. That's it, pure and simple.

First of all, to talk about us like children is disparaging, and I will leave it at that.

And you do care about this case way too much to be objective. I am not attacking you for it. We can't help what we deeply care about. I have found cases that I find myself getting emotionally attached to an outcome and it stops being interesting.

I was thinking murder from the beginning but now I have done an about face. The laptop has never made sense to me and I said that many pages ago. I cannot make it fit. It seems some poster cannot accept the fact that his could be a suicide by a very sad man. I did not see it at first, but I kept missing it. Vin is to blame for my conversion. lol. First is the notion his daughter is very close. Well she chose to go to a university about as far as should get from her dad as she could get and stay on the continent. I am sure it was a complicated decision which in her mind was not about her dad. I don't know what is in her or was in his head but if she was the light of his life, he had to be sad she chose to be so far away, no matter her stated reason. Then you have two failed marriages with women I think he was fond of, and seems they were still fond of him, but no love left. I also see a man coming to the end of his career. He puts a car in PF's name a few months before, he is described as distraught, not himself in the weeks before. He is seen the night before and is described as depressed, and apparently in an intense conversation with PF. It is not about Friday, its about Thursday. I wonder if the police and PF are holding back his state of mind, because they are hoping he changed his mind, and is out there and they don't want to bring embarrassment. The laptop has to have been put there by him or by PF and PF would have left it where it clearly could be found if it was staging. There are too many wanting this to be about PA or local politics, drug dealers, powerful politicians but its about a sad old man.

Edited by mbrn30000

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