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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

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docyabut2

In my mind RG would never have just walked away giving up his pension he had worked hard for all his life and the love of his daughter.Suicide in the river?, no trace of a body or a scent. I believe Ray never left Bellefonte and was perhaps murdered and every thing of his that was found in Lewisburg was a set up to appear that he committed suicide just like his Brother.

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Maureen_jacobs

Most likely scenario!

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Regi

(I'm thinking of the only poster I can recall who was on the same page as I am re: all of the circumstances/evidence in this case only he had enough sense to get the hell outta here. :lol:)

Given my opinion, the only thing I can think of to add (or point out, because I think it'd be obvious) regarding the laptop (and I hope I'm not repeating myself) is that I think it might- only might- be helpful to know what events occurred in both his professional and personal life after he obtained it and before he made those inquiries.

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2-B

The fact of the matter is that there was no scent detected... and what you make of that info is up to you.

That's not accurate.

The Bloodhound identified Ray's scent in the area surrounding where Ray's Mini had been parked in the SOS lot.

What the Bloodhound did not do, per Dixon's report, was pick up a trail, that is follow Ray walking anywhere.

If Ray walked nowhere, how did his scent get in the lot, then? One of two ways: 1. Ray himself or 2. the Mini Cooper alone, which contained Ray's scent and would have released his rafts into the area when opened (by a driver other than Ray and then again by LE).

Scenario 1 would necessitate Ray exiting the Mini and immediately getting into another vehicle close by in the lot (Ray's scent but no trail). Scenario 2 does not require Ray's presence in Lewisburg. These are the only two scenarios which fit the objective scent picture, unless of course one envisions Ray donning some specialized hunting suit designed to block his scent before hiking to the river (suicide scenario) or popping around to various spots about town (prior to dunking the laptop in the YITMAMPW).

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2-B

Regarding the wiping of the Hard Drive

A. Could have wanted to remove a virus

B. Wanted to delete confidential files due to his dedication to confidentiality

C. Perhaps a minor child or family member used it for improper browsing

D. Truly had something to hide

Now, here is a man with means. Why wouldn't he pay someone to wipe it? Isn't there protocol for retiring or soon to be retired employees? Wouldn't the importance of confidentiality be so great that the DAs office would actually have a department for that?

Flip side of the coin, perhaps he planned the disappearance. Maybe he was being blackmailed. Threatening emails? Who knows? Maybe someone sent evidence to him about wrongdoing in the form of photographs/videos and he buried them.

I think the likelihood of suicide is 5%, Homicide, 75%, and 15% walk away. The other 5 % is alien abduction, spontaneous combustion, or some act of God not otherwise explained.

This is an older man with wisdom, education, and experience. I'm sure that if it was a walk away, he'll hide his tracks well. Lawyers are too egotistical for suicide, however, suicide is possible if terminal disease is present. Homicide is likely because no body has been found. Suicide victims die where they die. Homicide victims can be hidden really well. Walk always, well, they really can hide.

I hope this cold case is resolved for the family's sake.

Here I sit, reading and posting to a thread of a man I do not know personally. The unknown aspects make this rather intriguing. His family needs closure. I hope they don't think that RG killed himself and that they don't carry any guilt.

I agree with much of what you say in this well-reasoned post, Maureen, especially that in general (not always) suicide victims are easy to find while homicide victims are more difficult to locate. The latter is true simply because perpetrators of homicide have a vested personal interest in hiding bodies, except in cases where 1. the perp plans to commit suicide or go out in a suicide by cop or 2. the perp is a member of a group that wants the dead body to make a statement/send a message.

I disagree on one point, and I wonder if re-thinking that point would shift your odds at all. Before modern technology, it was indeed true that those who walked away could really hide. In the last 20 years or so, that has changed significantly. It may still work for drug addicts, alcoholics, the mentally ill, and others who are willing to live on the fringes of society in pretty deplorable situations--but I'm guessing that's not how Ray Gricar wanted to spend his golden years. It may even have worked until the last ten years or so for the very, very rich (not the comfortable, like Ray), who could afford to hide out on private islands or afford to keep moving around to various parts of the world. But I think even that option is rapidly closing down. Read some of David Rambam's (an upscale private investigator) writings on this topic. Hiding in the era of global connectivity is really difficult.

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Regi

That's not accurate.

The Bloodhound identified Ray's scent in the area surrounding where Ray's Mini had been parked in the SOS lot.

Well, it's all the same to me; either way, it makes no difference.

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docyabut2

Again the dogs could have picked up Rays scent from the car that swept out into the lot, but still there was no scent of his leading away from the car any where.

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Regi

Docy, the thing is, I don't agree it's a fact that Gricar didn't walk out of the parking lot and to anywhere else from there.

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2-B

Well, it's all the same to me; either way, it makes no difference.

So we're you or were you not an OJ juror? Time to 'fess up, Regi!

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2-B

Docy, the thing is, I don't agree it's a fact that Gricar didn't walk out of the parking lot and to anywhere else from there.

But your lack of agreement does nothing to change scientifically established facts.

What you're doing is exactly what the BPD did: failing to understand what the scent evidence told them. And how far did that get them in nine years? Nowhere. Eventually they did what they resisted doing since year one, turned the case over to a higher authority. And here we sit, ten years, four and a half months later, at square one, with the official position remaining "It's still a missing person case with three theories, equally viable," at least as far as the public knows.

Yet the PSP themselves hold a key answer to a key question that could potentially blow this case wide open.

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Regi

But your lack of agreement does nothing to change scientifically established facts.

What you're doing is exactly what the BPD did: failing to understand what the scent evidence told them.

I understand it, it's that to me, that info doesn't establish facts regarding who and where.

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SuperSmith

Strange thing today. I got behind a new black convertible Camaro. Aside from admiring the car I noticed the plate. "RG-TOP-DA". The driver even reminded me of Ray Gricar. Creeped me out being that Ray used to own a Red convertible Camaro. If I would've made a positive ID I probably would've followed him and punched him!!

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Regi

^Yeah, that must have been really strange! :w00t:

I see Mini's- and not just the red one's- and I think of Gricar...

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wijg

Strange thing today. I got behind a new black convertible Camaro. Aside from admiring the car I noticed the plate. "RG-TOP-DA". The driver even reminded me of Ray Gricar. Creeped me out being that Ray used to own a Red convertible Camaro. If I would've made a positive ID I probably would've followed him and punched him!!

The license plate is likely an abbreviation for the Jimmy Buffett song "Ragtop Day".

Pretty crazy though!

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wijg

He went on with Renner in this exchange to say that a former Department of Defense higher up had contacted him directly to tell him "to back off" the Gricar talk.

If this is true - and its a BIG "if" - then let's as ourselves "why the DOD"? The only connection Ray has with the DOD is the the fact that his brother was a contractor for the DOD. Now, why a "former" DOD guy? Well, it's likely someone trying to keep a lid on some bad stuff that - if it became public - would threaten his pension and/or lead to jail time.

However, I'm not sure I believe that guy yet. But if it is true, in my opinion it points to Roy's suspicious "suicide" as the key to all of this.

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SuperSmith

If this is true - and its a BIG "if" - then let's as ourselves "why the DOD"? The only connection Ray has with the DOD is the the fact that his brother was a contractor for the DOD. Now, why a "former" DOD guy? Well, it's likely someone trying to keep a lid on some bad stuff that - if it became public - would threaten his pension and/or lead to jail time.

However, I'm not sure I believe that guy yet. But if it is true, in my opinion it points to Roy's suspicious "suicide" as the key to all of this.

Exactly and that's why I posted it. Rays brother and his death are in my top three theories. Faulds went on to tell another person on Twitter that the former "DOD" officials first name was "Guy" and that he was from.....drumroll....,Indiana

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wijg

Exactly and that's why I posted it. Rays brother and his death are in my top three theories. Faulds went on to tell another person on Twitter that the former "DOD" officials first name was "Guy" and that he was from.....drumroll....,Indiana

Wright Patterson AFB is only 30 minutes from the Indiana border.

It's also popular for people living in Dayton or western Cincinnati to jump across the border to Indiana when they retire. You can get a lot of land in a peaceful setting for much cheaper than you can closer to Dayton or Cincy, and tax rates are lower, but you're still a 20-40 minute drive to friends and family. I live in northwest Cincy, and I have relatives that hopped the border when they retired, and my father is strongly considering building a house out there. Just figured I'd pass that info along since I'm familiar with the area. The fact that the supposed retired DOD guy lives in Indiana actually makes it seem more credible, in my opinion.

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SuperSmith

Wright Patterson AFB is only 30 minutes from the Indiana border.

It's also popular for people living in Dayton or western Cincinnati to jump across the border to Indiana when they retire. You can get a lot of land in a peaceful setting for much cheaper than you can closer to Dayton or Cincy, and tax rates are lower, but you're still a 20-40 minute drive to friends and family. I live in northwest Cincy, and I have relatives that hopped the border when they retired, and my father is strongly considering building a house out there. Just figured I'd pass that info along since I'm familiar with the area. The fact that the supposed retired DOD guy lives in Indiana actually makes it seem more credible, in my opinion.

I think so too and find it hard to believe someone could make that up but who knows? Many questions remain

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wijg

I'm always googling Patty Fornicola just to see if there is anything new on the net. She has totally avoided social media since RG disappeared. But, found her name on a list of customers for a company in State College that does home remodeling.

http://www.vbrinc.com/Clients

And, had an interesting visitor to my googlesite who specifically was searching for keyword "Patty Fornicola" - visitor was from Conegliano Italy on an Alcatel android phone model OT-4033X.

I don't know why I thought about this... and maybe someone who knows Italian culture can answer this.... but if there were a "Patty Fornicola" in Italy, would she not spell her name with an "i" instead of a "y"? Anybody know what would be more the norm for a native Italian? The reason I ask is because if "Patti" is more the norm than "Patty", then Mrs. PC may have stumbled upon something that might be significant.

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2-B

I don't know why I thought about this... and maybe someone who knows Italian culture can answer this.... but if there were a "Patty Fornicola" in Italy, would she not spell her name with an "i" instead of a "y"? Anybody know what would be more the norm for a native Italian? The reason I ask is because if "Patti" is more the norm than "Patty", then Mrs. PC may have stumbled upon something that might be significant.

In Italian, the name Patricia would be Patrizia. If this article about Italian-American nicknames holds true for Italian nicknames, Patrizia would mould more likely be nicknamed "Patrizia The Big Drinker" than "Patty" or "Patti":

http://www.uvm.edu/~arosa/leggio.html

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2-B

Exactly and that's why I posted it. Rays brother and his death are in my top three theories. Faulds went on to tell another person on Twitter that the former "DOD" officials first name was "Guy" and that he was from.....drumroll....,Indiana

Just curious, SS. Do you believe BF actually received financial documents from Amos Goodall?

BF describes these documents as not meant to be seen by the public.

I've wondered if Goodall is aware BF is making this claim.

Re-reading BF's theory derived from these alleged documents, I still come away feeling he's provided no evidence beyond his claim of "secretive language" in the documents and his claims (on Twitter) that the CNN anniversary article (which has several obvious errors) contains "hints" to bolster his theory. He seems to be making leaps in logic even bigger than the one he makes about the laptop.

My personal take on him: he may have begun with a sincere interest in missing persons' cases, but he's become, much like someone else we know, a spotlight seeker, using other people's tragedies to call attention to himself. MOO.

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wijg

Just curious, SS. Do you believe BF actually received financial documents from Amos Goodall?

BF describes these documents as not meant to be seen by the public.

I've wondered if Goodall is aware BF is making this claim.

Re-reading BF's theory derived from these alleged documents, I still come away feeling he's provided no evidence beyond his claim of "secretive language" in the documents and his claims (on Twitter) that the CNN anniversary article (which has several obvious errors) contains "hints" to bolster his theory. He seems to be making leaps in logic even bigger than the one he makes about the laptop.

My personal take on him: he may have begun with a sincere interest in missing persons' cases, but he's become, much like someone else we know, a spotlight seeker, using other people's tragedies to call attention to himself. MOO.

He's the one with the idea that Ray was some sort of spy, right? Well, in my opinion, if his story is true, then it actually hurts his super spy theory. Because if Ray was a spy, it wouldn't be a retired DOD guy telling him to "back off". It would be some kind of spook from the CIA or Homeland Security. The fact that its alleged to have been a retired DOD guy bolsters the theory that it was somehow tied to Roy's mysterious death (perhaps Ray uncovered something and they had to silence him???).

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SuperSmith

He's the one with the idea that Ray was some sort of spy, right? Well, in my opinion, if his story is true, then it actually hurts his super spy theory. Because if Ray was a spy, it wouldn't be a retired DOD guy telling him to "back off". It would be some kind of spook from the CIA or Homeland Security. The fact that its alleged to have been a retired DOD guy bolsters the theory that it was somehow tied to Roy's mysterious death (perhaps Ray uncovered something and they had to silence him???).

And I have had this theory of a tie to Roy's death ever since I began this journey. For me it's not so much what I have found a long the way to support this theory but moreover what I haven't found to disprove this theory.

Regardless it's not hurting anyone to explore this.

2b do you think it's possible Goodall is not the attorney he is speaking of? Perhaps Goodall didn't settle the estate and this doc if it exists ties to that estate settlement.

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2-B

He's the one with the idea that Ray was some sort of spy, right? Well, in my opinion, if his story is true, then it actually hurts his super spy theory. Because if Ray was a spy, it wouldn't be a retired DOD guy telling him to "back off". It would be some kind of spook from the CIA or Homeland Security. The fact that its alleged to have been a retired DOD guy bolsters the theory that it was somehow tied to Roy's mysterious death (perhaps Ray uncovered something and they had to silence him???).

SS has in fact put the "something to do with Roy's death" card on the table before (see below), as have others. IIRC, Star was the first to mention that Ray questioned whether the death had been a suicide. Side bar: TG didn't seem to question it, at least publicly, given his father's history of bi-polar disorder, Roy having abandoned his mess, and behavior immediately preceding his death. But that doesn't mean Ray was wrong to question as he may have had knowledge/suspicions TG did not.

However, a few posts up thread I was going to point out as you did that the DOD guy and the spy story don't mix. If BF isn't concocting the DOD guy (he thinks it *means* something that Reddit put the RG case in its "most dangerous unresolved mysteries" category), then it means his spy/double agent/whatever theory has even more holes.

And the holes are plentiful, in part because he relies on the LMW as being real and the May 27 Michigan sighting, which has all sorts of problems and which TG called "further" discredited by the sketches the retired sketch artist witness made.

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2-B

And I have had this theory of a tie to Roy's death ever since I began this journey. For me it's not so much what I have found a long the way to support this theory but moreover what I haven't found to disprove this theory.

Regardless it's not hurting anyone to explore this.

2b do you think it's possible Goodall is not the attorney he is speaking of? Perhaps Goodall didn't settle the estate and this doc if it exists ties to that estate settlement.

True, SS, he doesn't refer to Goodall by name. But even in his alleged "book" chapter he provides zero names, zero documentation, no way any reasonable person can check the veracity of what he offers.

I'm assuming (and I know the old adage!) it's Goodall because he says "the family attorney," and that is how Goodall is always described. I've never seen another attorney named in conjunction with any of RG's post-disappearance issues (the reward fund, law license renewal, finances, death declaration). Have you? I may have missed a mention--or BF may be mistaken. Maybe he got some bogus papers from that attorney who posed as a friend and called RG a sack of oatmeal on national TV early on--forgot his name.

Amos Goodall just strikes me as the same kind of ethical guy RG was. So I'm flummoxed by the whole notion of him handing stuff to BF that was "clearly never meant to be seen by the public."

I know I'm repeating myself. But I can't figure it out.

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