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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

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Vincennes

I think you said you thought the late night working by RG was just avoiding going home, maybe to get away from that talk in the park. At least I thought you said that, but cannot find where now. I think that might be what is going on there. Does anyone know if they shared a room or slept apart? You would think the days events, and tomorrows plans would have been all settled with pillow talk. You would think two people who lived and worked together would have a pretty fixed routine. I am sure RG's schedule was a little more unpredictable, but PF was a clerk and most likely worked 8-5 m-f but I bet there were days they went to work together. The description of the early morning events seem so lacking detail. It's like they said a few words, and parted. I just don't know how PF can be ruled out. There is just so much lacking in what we know about this couple. Perhaps the cops have all that settled, but it just makes me shake my head.

This post was there, I just missed answering it. It is ABSOLUTELY my theory for the 5:30 p walk in the dark is indicative Ray was avoiding going home. Logically to me there wasn't enough time to leave work, go home and then RUN to the park to talk. Then Ray enters the CH at 6:15p The discussion in the park is over and he goes to the CH, he hasn't gone home. It's a "walking" distance but not in that length of time and driving back and forth to the park for a chat makes even less sense.

There's one more thing about this timing thing that I see here and in the timetable. I know you guys are going to think it's a silly thought but, you know, I find myself really firm on it. The matter relating to the dogs.

They are tending to this dog with bladder / kidney issues so closely someone HAS to be there at lunch to tend to it. I wonder, driving distance, how far away from the house Ray's call came in from. He obviously hadn't left the house at 8:00a when Patty did, he's still in bed to snooze with his OJ. So that driving distance is what we have to determine the time of his departure. Let's just say that he left at 10:00 or even 11:00a but it's primary on his mind this dog can't take an additional hour.

My thought that won't go away is (and I have a dog that looks exactly like Ray's and the size/breed is part of the issue here) If and when those animals have bladder / kidney issues that are THAT serious, you don't just step outside with them for 2 minutes and have the issue taken care of. It does make a bit of difference as to if you are dealing with a male or female but especially if it's a male, it requires TIME outside or most usually a walk to clear the issue. I've had numerous friends who have dealt with this kind of illness, one that's going on right now. Strange as it may sound renal issues / kidney failure causes INCREASED urination. That would fit with the necessity of length of time being adhered to rather and than just caging the animal if it has a tendency to misbehave. (The other thing that goes along with this disease because of the increased urination, they dehydrate and require daily fluid transfusion being given at home to help them survive long enough medication can take effect)

I know this might seem like a dismissible point, thrown to a far out possibility, but I'm pretty firm that it's not. Yet we have two occasions that shout out in Patty's story, the dogs, whose care was such a major issue, become a non-issue. Instead of going home and spending at least a half hour there, she's managed to have no other time requirements than to be walking in the park. The next time she does this is Friday night when she comes home, finds Ray gone and immediately dances off to the gym for A COUPLE OF HOURS ! Keeping in mind at that point we are still to believe as soon as Ray returned home they were going out for dinner. If it were me, fitting myself into that situation, my necessities would included, "I stayed home to take care of the dog, so that we would be able to leave for dinner just as soon as Ray got back. A sick bladder would have been strained all day by their work absence, you don't just expect to strain it again with what would be a total of about another 4 hours.

Why ? I think because the priority in Patty's mind was set on establishing a time for the alibi in a place where she was seen.

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mbrn30000

This post was there, I just missed answering it. It is ABSOLUTELY my theory for the 5:30 p walk in the dark is indicative Ray was avoiding going home. Logically to me there wasn't enough time to leave work, go home and then RUN to the park to talk. Then Ray enters the CH at 6:15p The discussion in the park is over and he goes to the CH, he hasn't gone home. It's a "walking" distance but not in that length of time and driving back and forth to the park for a chat makes even less sense.

There's one more thing about this timing thing that I see here and in the timetable. I know you guys are going to think it's a silly thought but, you know, I find myself really firm on it. The matter relating to the dogs.

They are tending to this dog with bladder / kidney issues so closely someone HAS to be there at lunch to tend to it. I wonder, driving distance, how far away from the house Ray's call came in from. He obviously hadn't left the house at 8:00a when Patty did, he's still in bed to snooze with his OJ. So that driving distance is what we have to determine the time of his departure. Let's just say that he left at 10:00 or even 11:00a but it's primary on his mind this dog can't take an additional hour.

My thought that won't go away is (and I have a dog that looks exactly like Ray's and the size/breed is part of the issue here) If and when those animals have bladder / kidney issues that are THAT serious, you don't just step outside with them for 2 minutes and have the issue taken care of. It does make a bit of difference as to if you are dealing with a male or female but especially if it's a male, it requires TIME outside or most usually a walk to clear the issue. I've had numerous friends who have dealt with this kind of illness, one that's going on right now. Strange as it may sound renal issues / kidney failure causes INCREASED urination. That would fit with the necessity of length of time being adhered to rather and than just caging the animal if it has a tendency to misbehave. (The other thing that goes along with this disease because of the increased urination, they dehydrate and require daily fluid transfusion being given at home to help them survive long enough medication can take effect)

I know this might seem like a dismissible point, thrown to a far out possibility, but I'm pretty firm that it's not. Yet we have two occasions that shout out in Patty's story, the dogs, whose care was such a major issue, become a non-issue. Instead of going home and spending at least a half hour there, she's managed to have no other time requirements than to be walking in the park. The next time she does this is Friday night when she comes home, finds Ray gone and immediately dances off to the gym for A COUPLE OF HOURS ! Keeping in mind at that point we are still to believe as soon as Ray returned home they were going out for dinner. If it were me, fitting myself into that situation, my necessities would included, "I stayed home to take care of the dog, so that we would be able to leave for dinner just as soon as Ray got back. A sick bladder would have been strained all day by their work absence, you don't just expect to strain it again with what would be a total of about another 4 hours.

Why ? I think because the priority in Patty's mind was set on establishing a time for the alibi in a place where she was seen.

I think they had a fight Thursday night, so they are not really talking Friday. Yes my first theory was that fight led to his death, but not so sure now. I don't think they slept together that night. I think the fight turned into brooding and silence where she attempted conversation and he rolled over. Think about that note. You had a fight the night before. You go to bed mad and in silence. Your significant other is still mad and not really talking in the AM. So you leave a note trying to force a call out of him. She didn't need to leave that note. She could have just gone home for lunch. The call at 11:30 was probably a relief to her but for him maybe to buy time for his plan or a strange way of saying goodbye.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Vincennes

MB, now I'll also include a couple of my thoughts toward it was suicide. (It hurts the brain to switch gears like this )

One is regarding the laptop and it's possible use. I think it could be possible that laptop was used to hold the suicide note that had been in the process of being composed for a few days. I wouldn't chose a piece of paper to do that one. After I'd made the decision to do it and that I wanted the note found immediately, I might just think of placing the laptop, opened up on the kitchen table. Out of place that would be something that anyone would look at almost immediately. Then all you'd have to do was to close it and put it away while LE took their first cursory glance through the house while you decided what you were going to do. That might have necessitated the hard drive then being destroyed.

Why ? I think Ray's nephew might then have seen that as something he needed to do to assist his cousin, Laura. He would have had the sad experience to know how much suicide effects insurance payout. Ray would have had at least three times the amount of his salary in insurance. Suicide would negate that payout. I don't know how it would have effected the amount paid out on his pension but I think there's a strong chance that it might have. I don't feel it would have been a nefarious type of thought, simply seeing that what had happened financially to his family when his father committed suicide didn't happen to her. He just might have destroyed that possibility.

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mbrn30000

MB, now I'll also include a couple of my thoughts toward it was suicide. (It hurts the brain to switch gears like this )

One is regarding the laptop and it's possible use. I think it could be possible that laptop was used to hold the suicide note that had been in the process of being composed for a few days. I wouldn't chose a piece of paper to do that one. After I'd made the decision to do it and that I wanted the note found immediately, I might just think of placing the laptop, opened up on the kitchen table. Out of place that would be something that anyone would look at almost immediately. Then all you'd have to do was to close it and put it away while LE took their first cursory glance through the house while you decided what you were going to do. That might have necessitated the hard drive then being destroyed.

Why ? I think Ray's nephew might then have seen that as something he needed to do to assist his cousin, Laura. He would have had the sad experience to know how much suicide effects insurance payout. Ray would have had at least three times the amount of his salary in insurance. Suicide would negate that payout. I don't know how it would have effected the amount paid out on his pension but I think there's a strong chance that it might have. I don't feel it would have been a nefarious type of thought, simply seeing that what had happened financially to his family when his father committed suicide didn't happen to her. He just might have destroyed that possibility.

That is an interesting thought about why the laptop was there. I just wonder why a person would risk being caught with it at that river. Of course it could be a private ritual by the finder of the note on the screen. I tend to think, he had something personal on the computer and had made up his mind to kill himself when he left the house that morning. maybe you are right there was a note he had been writing. If he is the one that threw the laptop into the river, if there was a note, he decided against leaving it at the last moment perhaps?. I don't think he was totally rational so perhaps he was thinking, they are better off not knowing for sure. Or maybe there was a mistress or some dark secret that someone might realize if they viewed the computer. So if he did it, I am thinking he grabbed the laptop as he was leaving, with the plan of disposing of it. I also am not convinced he died in the water, but if he did, I am still thinking gun.

Edited by mbrn30000

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Vincennes

One other thing that strikes me about Patty's interviews. One that is available on You Tube seems to be made at least a while after Ray's disappearance and the ID interviewer asks her which theory she thinks might be the one she holds as most possible. She casts an innocent, doe eyed look to the interviewer and announces her theory of what might have happened CHANGES about every day. :td:

In each of the other forums where the cause of death has waivered between suicide the families have been ADAMENT that their loved one would not do that. It demonstrates the usual reaction is for people to disallow the fact their loved one was in such an emotional state and they didn't see it. That carries with it a responsibility that they let them down.

Patty doesn't seem to see it that way or feel that. She casually flips off the three various theories as if she's talking about the choice of brands for an item in the supermarket.

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mbrn30000

One other thing that strikes me about Patty's interviews. One that is available on You Tube seems to be made at least a while after Ray's disappearance and the ID interviewer asks her which theory she thinks might be the one she holds as most possible. She casts an innocent, doe eyed look to the interviewer and announces her theory of what might have happened CHANGES about every day. :td:

In each of the other forums where the cause of death has waivered between suicide the families have been ADAMENT that their loved one would not do that. It demonstrates the usual reaction is for people to disallow the fact their loved one was in such an emotional state and they didn't see it. That carries with it a responsibility that they let them down.

Patty doesn't seem to see it that way or feel that. She casually flips off the three various theories as if she's talking about the choice of brands for an item in the supermarket.

Well I might change my mind tomorrow, but I am leaning suicide. I do think PF knows more about that, but will not talk about it either by choice or she has been asked to. I mean, what if the root of it is not only a strained relationship, but what he told her that night might be distressing for his daughter and she is protecting her. Sometimes things found at a scene are meaningless, but that laptop is definitely evidence. Evidence of what, I am not sure. I think my suicide explains all the evidence we know about.

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Vincennes

I guess you already know I'm still looking at Patty as the strongest possibility. I have another question and I will go to google and try to figure it out. And that's what estimate of Ray's departure time can we make from the driving distance of where that call took place in view of the fact the timeframe of letting the dogs out was going to be missed.

You see I think Ray was killed Thursday night. Friday morning in spite of the fact the what she says he was going to do was to take the day off, she left "her" car, his favorite for a drive. A drive she didn't know about yet ?

Then she receives a call from his phone at 11 - 11:30. A convenient call because it means she has to take off for lunch and she's already let the office know that she had to run errands that day. Also convenient that she needed extra time. State office experience here, on a Friday afternoon, with her in her "First Lady" position, that buys you a 2 - 2 1/2 hr. lunch easy !

So she has a supporting element of he drive, the Cooper, and that he stayed home in the morning located right there in the driveway. But could the guy that walked out of the house Friday morning to drive it away have been her brother, dressed to be recognized as Ray quite easily cuz he's wearing the same jeans and Ray's blue jacket, just like the night before ? He calls from the road to Lewisburg at 11:30 and Patty then does a pickup run on that lunch hour, that 2 hour lunch hour. That's why dogs never hit on the scent of Ray in that car. It was dropped off without him in it.

Ray, he's spending at least some time in that cistern. (Okay, maybe just the basement but Ray's right there in that house )

Does this not only fit timeframes but it also fits Patty's blasé attitude afterward. "Oh, gee, let me think, maybe he did just off himself and I didn't realize he was going to do that. Oh, darn."

Edit / Just checked the drive from Lewisburg to Bellefonte, approx. 50 miles..... DOABLE !

Edited by Vincennes
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Saunterer

So, I guess your deja vu doesn't include a youtube song link this time? :)

Ha! For Caramina:
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Vincennes

The polygraph of Patty would have ruled her out. You can't fool them and you can rest assured they asked all the right questions, that would have eliminated the brother or possible accomplices also. Forget it.

Patty's polygraph doesn't rule out squat. "I can rest assured they asked all the right questions......" Absurd. You all have been pondering over this for ten years because LE didn't do any of the right things or sufficiently check out any of the other possibilities but you are resting your assured on this claim of a polygraph ...... You sit right there and rest on that if you like.

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SuperSmith

What else would you be looking in a river for in a missing person? Everyone says the river was searched. do you think they were looking for big foot? Was the river search or not? If it was, they were looking for his dead body. If Sauter was looking for something else, tell us what he was looking for?

But the laptop does not belong in a scene when someone else killed him. It makes absolutely no sense. So RG put it there or PF or someone at PF's direction put it there. And if PF put it there, it was really bad staging. So we are back to RG put it there right before he either walked away or did himself in.

By the time of the searches it was known that the laptop was missing, his keys and sunglasses also were not in the car.

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mbrn30000

By the time of the searches it was known that the laptop was missing, his keys and sunglasses also were not in the car.

Maybe so, but its not hard to miss even with good intentions. One thing that is also and issue, it appears its upstream of the bridge. I bet most people were thinking he leapt from the bridge and were looking downstream. I think if it were planted it would have been planted to guarantee it would be found.

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mbrn30000

I guess you already know I'm still looking at Patty as the strongest possibility. I have another question and I will go to google and try to figure it out. And that's what estimate of Ray's departure time can we make from the driving distance of where that call took place in view of the fact the timeframe of letting the dogs out was going to be missed.

You see I think Ray was killed Thursday night. Friday morning in spite of the fact the what she says he was going to do was to take the day off, she left "her" car, his favorite for a drive. A drive she didn't know about yet ?

Then she receives a call from his phone at 11 - 11:30. A convenient call because it means she has to take off for lunch and she's already let the office know that she had to run errands that day. Also convenient that she needed extra time. State office experience here, on a Friday afternoon, with her in her "First Lady" position, that buys you a 2 - 2 1/2 hr. lunch easy !

So she has a supporting element of he drive, the Cooper, and that he stayed home in the morning located right there in the driveway. But could the guy that walked out of the house Friday morning to drive it away have been her brother, dressed to be recognized as Ray quite easily cuz he's wearing the same jeans and Ray's blue jacket, just like the night before ? He calls from the road to Lewisburg at 11:30 and Patty then does a pickup run on that lunch hour, that 2 hour lunch hour. That's why dogs never hit on the scent of Ray in that car. It was dropped off without him in it.

Ray, he's spending at least some time in that cistern. (Okay, maybe just the basement but Ray's right there in that house )

Does this not only fit timeframes but it also fits Patty's blasé attitude afterward. "Oh, gee, let me think, maybe he did just off himself and I didn't realize he was going to do that. Oh, darn."

Edit / Just checked the drive from Lewisburg to Bellefonte, approx. 50 miles..... DOABLE !

I can't completely rule PF out. I don't like the fact the police did not make her sweat that first night. It is a strange tale. She was the last to see him alive. I do agree, if PF did it, she did it Thursday night. I am still thinking, the tension in the park was evidence of trouble in paradise. Are the police so incompetent they never challenge RG was a happy guy, he and PF had a great relationship story, or do they know the truth, and find no reason to share what they know since it can only embarrass or hurt the survivors.

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SuperSmith

Maybe so, but its not hard to miss even with good intentions. One thing that is also and issue, it appears its upstream of the bridge. I bet most people were thinking he leapt from the bridge and were looking downstream. I think if it were planted it would have been planted to guarantee it would be found.

If you are leaning suicide why was there no scent trail to the river?

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Vincennes

You know why I think I keep going back to Docy's well / cistern idea and why it hit me so hard as a possible, because it's a woman's solution. I think I'm pretty close to Patty's size and weight. So normally the size and weight of moving that body about would be an issue until ........ You make me THAT mad and my abilities increase dramatically. Now, hauling him around up and downstairs, hidding in closets, basement etc. would not be my first thought, hard because of the size. But you make a hand truck/dolly available to me and schlepping him down the few steps to the outside of that house - very doable ...... From there it's simply a head first push and he's swimming. I put a decorative pot of flower on that old weathered cover in the corner or a chair in front of it and he's good. :yes:

And, yes, my ex-husband is alive and well but I think he's still looking over his shoulder a lot of times.

Edited by Vincennes
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Saunterer

By deja vu I mean you newcommers would have fit right into the discussion ten years ago. Back then posted factual inaccuracies would have mattered a lot...but not so much now, so I am reluctant to correct or criticize.

For newcommers who missed the discussion way back when, I am sorry the powers that be chose to remove the tens of thousands of posts from public view. It was an extraordinary opportunity for ordinary people to become involved in the case of the sudden disappearance of Ray Gricar, sitting district attorney of Centre County.

But unless and until new information surfaces, this saunterer is at rest.

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mbrn30000

If you are leaning suicide why was there no scent trail to the river?

I cannot find any description of where the dogs searched other than around the car. Supposedly, they tracked his scent about 20 ft from the car, and it stopped as if he got into another vehicle. Some stories said they could not find his scent along the river, but never tell us where if any where they searched along the river. I have searched for this info and cannot find it anywhere. So if you have it link it. I have a lot of faith in dogs, but they are not perfect, but I would like to know where they were sent.

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mbrn30000

You know why I think I keep going back to Docy's well / cistern idea and why it hit me so hard as a possible, because it's a woman's solution. I think I'm pretty close to Patty's size and weight. So normally the size and weight of moving that body about would be an issue until ........ You make me THAT mad and my abilities increase dramatically. Now, hauling him around up and downstairs, hidding in closets, basement etc. would not be my first thought, hard because of the size. But you make a hand truck/dolly available to me and schlepping him down the few steps to the outside of that house - very doable ...... From there it's simply a head first push and he's swimming. I put a decorative pot of flower on that old weathered cover in the corner or a chair in front of it and he's good. :yes:

And, yes, my ex-husband is alive and well but I think he's still looking over his shoulder a lot of times.

I think PF would have to have had help. My understanding is, RG's phone has been verified calling at 11:30 am and pinging while she is at work. If she killed him, or was involved, someone is driving that car carrying RG's phone towards Lewisburg at that time. I don't think she would need to move him, if someone else has agreed to do it. IF she did kill him, and someone helped her get rid of the body, and stage the scene, his body is nowhere near Lewisburg. Remember I am no longer leaning this way, but cannot rule it out.

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Vincennes

By deja vu I mean you newcommers would have fit right into the discussion ten years ago. Back then posted factual inaccuracies would have mattered a lot...but not so much now, so I am reluctant to correct or criticize.

But unless and until new information surfaces, this saunterer is at rest.

Good thing because criticizing would be ridiculous when with all of you esteemed knowledge, you never quite reached a finding did you ?

I'll ask straight up here you are one of the ones KA suspected as being right there to change a subject with irrefutable knowledge and personal insight anytime Patty's name comes up. Hummmmm You still seem to have the same penchant for recordings.

Edited by Vincennes

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Vincennes

I think PF would have to have had help. My understanding is, RG's phone has been verified calling at 11:30 am and pinging while she is at work. If she killed him, or was involved, someone is driving that car carrying RG's phone towards Lewisburg at that time. I don't think she would need to move him, if someone else has agreed to do it. IF she did kill him, and someone helped her get rid of the body, and stage the scene, his body is nowhere near Lewisburg. Remember I am no longer leaning this way, but cannot rule it out.

I'm really not saying that would have been a long term solution, I was just thinking it's one that she could have well handled by herself for the immediate problem. The brother or a helper certainly also would have had to come into play.

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Saunterer

Oh, I did want to point out (for the jeep discussion) that the parking lot behind the courthouse did and does not have a through driveway...just one entrance/exit point.

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mbrn30000

Oh, I did want to point out (for the jeep discussion) that the parking lot behind the courthouse did and does not have a through driveway...just one entrance/exit point.

I saw that on the current picture, so the jeep would have had to drive over that curb and dodge I think meters. I wonder if the complete video shows it coming and going. that lot is very small so it has to have parked or kept going.

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Saunterer

Good thing because criticizing would be ridiculous when with all of you esteemed knowledge, you never quite reached a finding did you ?

I'll ask straight up here you are one of the ones KA suspected as being right there to change a subject with irrefutable knowledge and personal insight anytime Patty's name comes up. Hummmmm You still seem to have the same penchant for recordings.

Other than a consistent (unesteemed) belief that Ray Gricar met with foul play, you are correct...I have never reached a finding (that being law enforcement's task).

Karen Arnold never understood how some totally detached person could acquire personal information about Ray Gricar...or why they would use that information, not to change discussion but to challenge her arguments. As I posted earlier, it was an extraordinary time for ordinary people to be involved in the discussion...with her and others.

Edited by Saunterer
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Vincennes

I saw that on the current picture, so the jeep would have had to drive over that curb and dodge I think meters. I wonder if the complete video shows it coming and going. that lot is very small so it has to have parked or kept going.

There are now parking spaces added on what would have been the exit side for that "jeep (LOL)" However, if you look closely I don't think the curb was ever poured to enclose it. If there were no cars parker there and there might not have been at those times with the court house closed, I think it might then although not quite legal but very passable for an exit. And for that high raised jeep, I don't think even if there was a curb it would have slowed him down. Might just have been an enjoyable bump. Maybe that's what even caught Ray's attention, they were bumping right on through where they weren't supposed to going.

Edited by Vincennes
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Vincennes

Other than a consistent (unesteemed) belief that Ray Gricar met with foul play, you are correct...I have never reached a finding (that being law enforcement's task).

Karen Arnold never understood how some totally detached person could acquire personal information about Ray Gricar...or why they would use that information, not to change discussion but to challenge her arguments. As I posted earlier, it was an extraordinary time for ordinary people to be involved in the discussion...with her and others.

Well, I have another unesteemed thought and it goes right to my direct question to you. KA felt that your's was one of the personalities that seem to engage in the original thread using various nome de plume. That takes me to another thought. BD has just recently been described here in this thread as being "imperious," projecting feelings of "owning" the discussion and that he has intimate knowledge surrounding things that went on in the disappearance. Hmmmm ~~~ I'll even go back a ways to an earlier post where we were granted permission "go on with what you were discussing." ~~~ Hmmmm ~~~

As to what Karen didn't understand maybe she didn't understand why any one who had acquired such "personal information" about Ray Gricar, didn't have his butte sitting in the Police Dept, the FBI office or the PSP headquarters. Why they would chose to dribble it throughout a who dunnit forum on the subject proclaiming themselves headmaster of personal knowledge. Because that in itself would be absurd and would show a very immature personality. There we are right back to BD and JJ again. And here you are again, jumping in when the subject really turns to Patty.

Karen's subsequent action of spelling out what she knew and a problem that was going on to others and divesting herself from being involved make perfect sense to me. I think this forum carries a long standing burden with it and I think maybe it's gone on long enough.

Edited by Vincennes

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SuperSmith

I cannot find any description of where the dogs searched other than around the car. Supposedly, they tracked his scent about 20 ft from the car, and it stopped as if he got into another vehicle. Some stories said they could not find his scent along the river, but never tell us where if any where they searched along the river. I have searched for this info and cannot find it anywhere. So if you have it link it. I have a lot of faith in dogs, but they are not perfect, but I would like to know where they were sent.

Unfortunately a lot of links are gone. If I recall the scent dog was around the car, parking lot, in front of the SOS. Not sure if it was a scent dog or cadaver dog that did the river banks.

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