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mbrn30000

The disappearance of Ray Gricar (Part 2)

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2-B

Trying to guess what disappearance SPM might use a GJ to look into is like trying to read tea leaves, of course. But Centre County has a limited number of unsolved disappearances, as one might expect from the stats on missing persons (i.e. that the vast majority are voluntary and return or are returned quickly).

Long term missing in Centre County:

1. Dawn Miller, age 22, from Williamsport, PA, but staying at the Academy Apartments in Bellefonte with her boyfriend. Last seen 10/24/92 with her boyfriend and his nephew en route to Williamsport. LE believes she was murdered, interviewed the boyfriend, boyfriend denied he harmed her, but boyfriend committed suicide six months later. Nephew fingered boyfriend in Dawn's death, led police to supposed burial site, but no human remains found. Case status: unsolved, murder suspected.

2. Brenda Condon, age 28, missing from Spring Township, 2 miles north of Bellefonte, where she was a bartender at Carl's Bad Tavern. Last seen between 12:45 and 1:15 am 2/27/91. Three unidentified bar patrons are wanted for questioning. Case status: unsolved.

3. Cindy Song, age 21, last seen when a friend dropped her off at her West Clinton Avenue apartment in State college after a party on 11/1/01. Case status: unsolved.

4. Jennifer Cahill-Shadle, age 48, last seen at the N. Atherton St. Walmart in Ferguson Township 5/15/14. Case status: unsolved.

5. Ray Gricar.

Two other possible candidates for the list:

1. Joey Lynn Offut is listed as missing from her Sykesville, PA home, which burned, killing her infant child. Her car was found on Waupelaini Drive in State College.

2. An unnamed 55 year old male is supposedly missing from Harris Township. According to an article in which he was mentioned, whoever this man is, LE does not consider him endangered.

My thoughts: Cindy and Ray strike me as the cases most likely to benefit from a GJ at this point. But I am just a layperson with no access to police files, so that is merely JMHO.

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docyabut2

Face it, I go with the homicide theory like many others and who ever drove his car to Lewisburg is the culprit.

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2-B

Face it, I go with the homicide theory like many others and who ever drove his car to Lewisburg is the culprit.

Well, yes. A number of us have reached that position (or one like it, since the "culprit" might have had a "helper" who drove the Mini to the lot) after years of carefully studying the evidence that's publicly available. If we are correct, the question then becomes, "Who is the culprit?"

Some have singled out a killer and remain steadfast in that belief. Others have a plate of potential culprits. Either which way, as armchair detectives, we lack full evidence LE has in the case files and we lack the authority to move on even the most compelling of theories. Only LE can take this case to the point of solving it in any meaningful way.

And that is why SPM's decision to enact a GJ that may be used to investigate a Centre County disappearance is of great interest, at least to me. A GJ is an investigative tool in PA and could help push a heretofore incomplete case closer to the point of indictment. The list of unsolved Centre County disappearances is short. Of those cases, the ones that could most likely benefit from a GJ seems to me even shorter.

Edited by 2-B

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2-B

District Attorney Stacy Parks Miller petitioned Centre County President Judge Tom Kistler to summon a county investigating grand jury Tuesday.

This jury would consider unsolved crimes within Centre County which, according to the petition, include "at least one unsolved murder and a recent series of other cases the scope of which cannot be determined without the powers granted to a county investigating grand jury." It also lists other types of cases for consideration, like drug trafficking, corrupt organizations and unsolved disappearance cases.

[...]

Parks Miller said the grand jury bwould be used cautiously and only for appropriate cases where there are credible allegations of criminal conduct that lend themselves to best being investigated by a grand jury proceeding, which is secret.

Parks Miller said this will encourage witnesses to speak freely and without fear of retaliation.

"The interesting and important thing about a grand jury is that it has additional and important investigative powers that can sometimes exceed that of regular law enforcement," Parks Miller said. "There are certain types of cases that can lend itself to those kinds of investigations that regular investigations can sometimes be handicapped in."

[bolding mine]

http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/centre-county-da-wants-county-investigating-grand-jury

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1oldtrooper

Her one quote indicated "at least one murder" and another quote says "an unsolved disappearance" which wouldn't nessasarily mean a murder. I don't know which she means or perhaps both.

That being said I have my doubts it RG simply because of the shear time that had passed......unless new information came to light. She could've asked for a GJ in RGs case long ago.

I don't know how it works however with PSP being the lead investigative unit if they would go back to her if they found something new and then she would petition the court.

When this case got handed off to PSP, it was a mere technicality. The criminal guys at the PSP barracks have their hands full with "current day" cases, and unless the OIC up at departmental headquarters in Harrisburg tells the station commander to put someone on the case for a specified time, trust me when I tell you it isn't being looked at.

If PSP did come up with something, they would give the info to the DA who would then decide if there was enough info to have a GJ.

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SuperSmith

When this case got handed off to PSP, it was a mere technicality. The criminal guys at the PSP barracks have their hands full with "current day" cases, and unless the OIC up at departmental headquarters in Harrisburg tells the station commander to put someone on the case for a specified time, trust me when I tell you it isn't being looked at.

If PSP did come up with something, they would give the info to the DA who would then decide if there was enough info to have a GJ.

Thank you that answered my question. I'm wondering at this point has all the PSU the investigating surrounding PSU, 2M, and elite powers that be turned up not just corruption but a link of foul play on RG.

Or has the Hells Angel angle began to unfold.

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1oldtrooper

Thank you that answered my question. I'm wondering at this point has all the PSU the investigating surrounding PSU, 2M, and elite powers that be turned up not just corruption but a link of foul play on RG.

Or has the Hells Angel angle began to unfold.

Sadly, I would speculate this Grand Jury if approved would have nothing to do with Ray Gricar unless as you pointed out, there was credibility to the supposed Hell's Angel guy's story of what happened to Ray Gricar. I think it's a longshot. And even if it does have to do with RG, knowbody will ever know unless they decide to do a press release on it or someone on the GJ talks after the fact.

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Saunterer

Sadly, I would speculate this Grand Jury if approved would have nothing to do with Ray Gricar unless as you pointed out, there was credibility to the supposed Hell's Angel guy's story of what happened to Ray Gricar. I think it's a longshot. And even if it does have to do with RG, knowbody will ever know unless they decide to do a press release on it or someone on the GJ talks after the fact.

I think there are at least a half dozen other possible POIs in the Gricar case, discussed over the years, if SPM has enough information to present to a grand jury. In the Cindy Song case I have only ever heard of one POI. Maybe we should ask Carla Baron for her "read" on this, as she "worked" both cases. ;)

On a more humorous note, my favorite egotist (over yonder), who apparently still thinks he is a part of the Gricar investigation, says several early posters could be summoned...and has agreed to testify before a grand jury, if called upon. :)

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cutter99

I saw that post last week Saunterer, and thought boy, he just can't wait to be called to a Grand Jury, can he?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't everything he has ever put out there his own personal opinion? Does he have some "inside track" that I am not aware of? I have noticed he has done everything in his power to shut down everyone who does not agree with him or offers up something that has the potential to be credible.

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2-B

Sadly, I would speculate this Grand Jury if approved would have nothing to do with Ray Gricar unless as you pointed out, there was credibility to the supposed Hell's Angel guy's story of what happened to Ray Gricar.

Respectfully snipped.

The Hell's Angels' angle is the only foul play angle to have received any serious media play.

However, the specific details of the disappearance don't easily mesh with homicide committed by someone from the outer spheres of Gricar connection. As Saunterer has already pointed out, there are at least a half a dozen possible POI's in Gricar's disappearance which have been discussed seriously in the past decade though not covered as suspects in media reporting. Many of these POI's have been closer to the inner circle that starts with RG as the center point, and reasonably so. If a homicide, this was well-planned and involved intimate knowledge about RG, not the least of which would be his plans to take that Friday morning off and go for a drive. I don't believe for a minute that a former defendant, Hell's Angel or otherwise, staked out the house until the one morning Ray decided on a whim not to go to work--especially since he allegedly drove to Raystown Lake through rural Huntingdon County the previous day.

A curious feature of the Gricar case--as the "straight up missing person's case" it has been labeled by LE since the outset--is the way LE has kept its cards close to the vest, only occasionally releasing information on anniversaries. To me, that approach suggests the possibility some in the BPD may have been leaning more heavily toward homicide than the public is aware and that details were carefully withheld/carefully released in such a way to be mindful of effects on a potential perpetrator. Otherwise, we would have seen anything and everything being fed to the public as a way to help locate the MP, as we've seen in countless MP cases where there's hope of recovering that missing person alive.

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2-B

Back to the laptop for a minute for a small point. The other night I listened to an old (circa 2011) YouTube Dateline piece which revisited the Gricar disappearance in the wake of the JS arrest. The bulk of it was far older clips pieced together.

One clip was Tony Gricar describing the river the weekend of the disappearance--that yes, the river was running higher than normal but that the water was so clear you could see everything that was on the bottom of the river.

This clip clarified something for me. I remember from the old days, circa 2006, Tony posting a photo taken from the bridge showing that the water was so crystal clear you could see every rock and stone on the river bottom and see fish swimming.

What I couldn't remember was when he'd taken the photo.

I think the only place I've ever seen water so clear was on the Florida panhandle decades before the BP disaster. And I've fished plenty of PA's rivers and streams. That statement from Tony coupled with my memory of the photo just reinforces for me the impossibility of the dive teams missing the laptop.

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Saunterer

I saw that post last week Saunterer, and thought boy, he just can't wait to be called to a Grand Jury, can he?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't everything he has ever put out there his own personal opinion? Does he have some "inside track" that I am not aware of? I have noticed he has done everything in his power to shut down everyone who does not agree with him or offers up something that has the potential to be credible.

He never has had what I would call an "inside track" on anything related to the Gricar disappearance...he never even set foot in Lewisburg until years after the fact and I do not think he ever visited Bellefonte. But he has talked to others ;). IMO he suffers from acute egotism (witness his penchant for always wanting to get in the last word). Though he does not say it, all that he posts is his personal opinion. There is nothing he, or we, know that would be even remotely desired in a grand jury proceeding in this case.
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Saunterer

Back to the laptop for a minute for a small point. The other night I listened to an old (circa 2011) YouTube Dateline piece which revisited the Gricar disappearance in the wake of the JS arrest. The bulk of it was far older clips pieced together.

One clip was Tony Gricar describing the river the weekend of the disappearance--that yes, the river was running higher than normal but that the water was so clear you could see everything that was on the bottom of the river.

This clip clarified something for me. I remember from the old days, circa 2006, Tony posting a photo taken from the bridge showing that the water was so crystal clear you could see every rock and stone on the river bottom and see fish swimming.

What I couldn't remember was when he'd taken the photo.

I think the only place I've ever seen water so clear was on the Florida panhandle decades before the BP disaster. And I've fished plenty of PA's rivers and streams. That statement from Tony coupled with my memory of the photo just reinforces for me the impossibility of the dive teams missing the laptop.

I do not know either when Tony took that photo from the traffic bridge. When I first visited the site (during the tail end of the first diver search), I walked along the river bank, following the last diver boat up river...there being nothing much going on at the launch site (one tv crew and a handfull of onlookers). I could not assess the clarity of the river itself from that angle, but I remember the news article which said that the railroad bridge piers were searched and that told me that the traffic bridge piers had also been searched.

I can say that the channel between the river and island behind the park and Street of Shops was cloudy, apparently due to the creek outletting just north of the scene. The last diver search that day was in this murky channel...the divers submerged out of sight and dragging a rope between them. Had the laptop appeared there later, in that channel, I could have accepted it.

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docyabut2

I do not know either when Tony took that photo from the traffic bridge. When I first visited the site (during the tail end of the first diver search), I walked along the river bank, following the last diver boat up river...there being nothing much going on at the launch site (one tv crew and a handfull of onlookers). I could not assess the clarity of the river itself from that angle, but I remember the news article which said that the railroad bridge piers were searched and that told me that the traffic bridge piers had also been searched.

I can say that the channel between the river and island behind the park and Street of Shops was cloudy, apparently due to the creek outletting just north of the scene. The last diver search that day was in this murky channel...the divers submerged out of sight and dragging a rope between them. Had the laptop appeared there later, in that channel, I could have accepted it.

I have to agree with some here RG`s laptop was placed much later in the river then RG`s supposing fake trip, and who had access to his lap top ? You`d think it would`nt be any one out of his home where it was kept. To make it worked any where out side the home he would had to have taken the wires

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docyabut2

Was watching on ID of a old fifteen case of a detective that had search missing bones and had solved a case, are there any unidentified bones found in the area where RG had lived ?

Edited by docyabut2
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Saunterer

Tony's photos of the river are still up on his Twitter

https://twitter.com/raygricar

and here's a pic of the river search

http://www.nytimes.c...stery.html?_r=0

and another

http://media.centredaily.com/smedia/2014/08/08/15/51/9AWqw.AuSt.42.jpeg

Yer a beach, fig leaf. Tanks! I think the tweeted photos must have been from the summer of '05.
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Saunterer

Was watching on ID of a old fifteen case of a detective that had search missing bones and had solved a case, are there any unidentified bones found in the area where RG had lived ?

No unidentified bones reported found in Bellefonte in the last 10 years that I know of. But occasionally there have been human bones found around the county. Ray Gricar's DNA profile is apparently in multiple regesters.
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2-B

Tony's photos of the river are still up on his Twitter

https://twitter.com/raygricar

and here's a pic of the river search

http://www.nytimes.c...stery.html?_r=0

and another

http://media.centredaily.com/smedia/2014/08/08/15/51/9AWqw.AuSt.42.jpeg

Thanks, MrsPC. I don't know if it's just the Twitter feed or viewing the photo on a smart phone vs. having seen it first on a computer, but what I see on the Twitter feed with that fish photo isn't nearly as stunning as it was when I saw it years ago on a computer monitor posted to CTV message boards. I don't think I ever saved it, but it's a shame some of our newcomers can't see how crystal clear that water appeared in the original photo.

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2-B

former ADA Steve Sloane's Facebook - he has a couple pics of Gricar

https://www.facebook.com/steve.sloane.794/photos

I see he's finally pursuing a writing career. I don't know if anyone remembers, but the CDT sponsored a writing contest--I think shortly after Ray went missing--where various chapters were written by different people. Sloane won the opening chapter slot. The remaining chapters took a turn that someone thought might point to a theory regarding Ray's disappearance, but I remained skeptical since that would have required a conspiracy among about ten people who likely didn't know each other to create chapters that hung together as a viable theory. Oh well. Water under the bridge as they say.

In other DA news, SPM's GJ has been approved to investigate, according to the CDT, at least one unsolved murder and other cases. Who knows if Ray will be in that vague basket of unsolved cases.....

Edited by 2-B
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Saunterer

I see he's finally pursuing a writing career. I don't know if anyone remembers, but the CDT sponsored a writing contest--I think shortly after Ray went missing--where various chapters were written by different people. Sloane won the opening chapter slot. The remaining chapters took a turn that someone thought might point to a theory regarding Ray's disappearance, but I remained skeptical since that would have required a conspiracy among about ten people who likely didn't know each other to create chapters that hung together as a viable theory. Oh well. Water under the bridge as they say.

In other DA news, SPM's GJ has been approved to investigate, according to the CDT, at least one unsolved murder and other cases. Who knows if Ray will be in that vague basket of unsolved cases.....

"All The Way Home"...I have all of the chapters printed out. Sloane's was first, published online on 1/30/05...but is still an interesting read. The last chapter was published online on 5/15/05.

No "smoking gun" there, as nearly as I could ever figure out. But this is the kind of stuff (and there are thousands of pages/posts) anyone coming in new to Ray Gricar's disappearance cannot fully appreciate...unless they were there at the time.

But that does not prevent someone with new information from rocking everyone's thinking. Sauntering is most rewarding when walking a new path.

Edited by Saunterer
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2-B

"All The Way Home"...I have all of the chapters printed out. Sloane's was first, published online on 1/30/05...but is still an interesting read. The last chapter was published online on 5/15/05.

No "smoking gun" there, as nearly as I could ever figure out. But this is the kind of stuff (and there are thousands of pages/posts) anyone coming in new to Ray Gricar's disappearance cannot fully appreciate...unless they were there at the time.

But that does not prevent someone with new information from rocking everyone's thinking. Sauntering is most rewarding when walking a new path.

Thanks for the date of Sloane's entry, pre-disappearance. As I recall, the someone who saw a Gricar disappearance theory in the story didn't see it in Chapter 1 but in events later in the story somehow pointing (IIRC) to something having to do with LG's imagined "real" parentage. But ten years out, I've forgotten most of the story, except something to do with a deceased parent's papers spread out on a table revealing secrets (and I could be inventing that out of thin air).

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docyabut2

Back to the laptop for a minute for a small point. The other night I listened to an old (circa 2011) YouTube Dateline piece which revisited the Gricar disappearance in the wake of the JS arrest. The bulk of it was far older clips pieced together.

One clip was Tony Gricar describing the river the weekend of the disappearance--that yes, the river was running higher than normal but that the water was so clear you could see everything that was on the bottom of the river.

This clip clarified something for me. I remember from the old days, circa 2006, Tony posting a photo taken from the bridge showing that the water was so crystal clear you could see every rock and stone on the river bottom and see fish swimming.

What I couldn't remember was when he'd taken the photo.

I think the only place I've ever seen water so clear was on the Florida panhandle decades before the BP disaster. And I've fished plenty of PA's rivers and streams. That statement from Tony coupled with my memory of the photo just reinforces for me the impossibility of the dive teams missing the laptop.

In my mind RG never was in that river, they would have found some trace of him or items on him in the river, and that lap top then. Also he never drove that car to Lewisburg, they would have been some dog scent of him leaving that car.

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mrs_gransang

Can someone tell me where I can see this copy of the book Sloane has written? I could not find anything about it online.

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