science and religion

[ShadowSot]

If you look around the world, flood myths can be found in cultures where they lived near rivers or coasts. Floods are a natural occurance.

Legendizing a local flood, using it to impart a great story or moral tale is pretty much story tellers do.

The Biblical flood myth was based on the earlier flood from the epic of Gilgamesh, as mentioned above.

Ancient Egyptians, which were nearby and were contemporaries, didn't have a flood myth. As for what it would take to completely flood the Earth. Well, the amount of water would be enormous. It would raise the water vapor so much we would be unable to breathe.

As for the accura y of the Bible some things simply did not happen, such as the Exodus account. The Jews were not slaves in Egypt.

Others did happen, like the Kingdom of David, but we're a bit over glamorized.

Edited August 10, 2015 by ShadowSot

[FTWind]

What would guys say about the first verses of Ezekiel?

[+HerNibs]

What would guys say about the first verses of Ezekiel?

Please post the verse you are talking about.

Nibs

[ShadowSot]

I remember reading about the symbolism of the Chariot, but it was awhile ago.

Chariots were a powerful military weapon at the time, think of today like a tank.

I know there was symbolic reoresentation behind the animals but I don't remember what it is.

[ShadowSot]

Please post the verse you are talking about.

Nibs

He is talking about Ezekiel 1:4-28.

Gets used a lot by Ancient Alien types.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+1%3A4-28&version=ERV

[ShadowSot]

Crustal Displacement Theory

In When the sky fell: In search of Atlantis (1996), Rand Flem Ath[39] expanded on Professor Charles Hapgood's theory of crustal displacement whereby the entire earth's crust moved with respect to the core. The suggested date for this was about 10,000 years BC. If a displacement had occurred then it would have caused enormous disruption to the the earth's oceans with massive tsunamis and heavy rain. Although the book was nominally about the disappearance of Atlantis, the theory of crustal displacement not only explains the discrepancies in ice thickness in Greenland and Antarctica but also the sudden demise of the mammoths. This theory could also potentially explain the widespread existence of flood accounts throughout different cultures.

Mammoths didn't suddenly die out, they petered out over time.

And there isn't the sort of geological evidence you'd expect to see if something like this happened.

The only thing going for it is flood stories, but many cultures don't have flood myths, and several that do came from cultural contamination from Christian missionaries.

[FTWind]

He is talking about Ezekiel 1:4-28.

Gets used a lot by Ancient Alien types.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+1%3A4-28&version=ERV

ok this question did derive from ancient aliens but still it's still a vaild question. The verse being of one that depicts ezeikel witnessing something from the sky in which living creatures arose from.I mean was he high or is there any truth to be found?also his grand father Enoch was supposedly abdutcted by god according to his book which was excluded from the bible,maybe Ezekiel and his whole family are some the first records showing people getting high Edited August 10, 2015 by FTWind

[FTWind]

Mammoths didn't suddenly die out, they petered out over time.

And there isn't the sort of geological evidence you'd expect to see if something like this happened.

The only thing going for it is flood stories, but many cultures don't have flood myths, and several that do came from cultural contamination from Christian missionaries.

I'm sorry are you speculating, because there are things that you claim that have not been or can not be documented Edited August 10, 2015 by FTWind

[Space Commander Travis]

I'm sorry are you speculating, because there are things that you claim that have not been or can notve documented

I don't think he's the one who is speculating.

[FTWind]

Which the book of Enoch is actually quote interesting.

I don't think he's the one who is speculating.

how am I speculating I'm asking questions about the information at hand

[ShadowSot]

ok this question did derive from ancient aliens but still it's still a vaild question. The verse being of one that depicts ezeikel witnessing something from the sky in which living creatures arose from.I mean was he high or is there any truth to be found?also his grand father Enoch was supposedly abdutcted by god according to his book which was excluded from the bible,maybe Ezekiel and his whole family are some the first records showing people getting high

Honestly for some prophets at least I do think its is safe to assume some sort of drugs were used.

But in the case of the sample from Ezekiel there is actual symbolism being used that would have been understood in the context of the time period and religion.

[FTWind]

Honestly for some prophets at least I do think its is safe to assume some sort of drugs were used.

But in the case of the sample from Ezekiel there is actual symbolism being used that would have been understood in the context of the time period and religion.

and the book of enoch

[ShadowSot]

I'm sorry are you speculating, because there are things that you claim that have not been or can not be documented

The extinction of mammoths can and has been documented.

Mass displacement of continents would leave visible marks on geology that would be obvious. Rock is elastic, slow movements over time produce a very different pattern than sudden shifting, which would be dead obvious to any geologist if it occured.

To say nothing of tidal activity which would leave much more than just stories.

The massive crater implicated with the extinction of the dinosaurs left sand deposits that can still be seen millions of years later on the surface, as well as depositing deep ocean rocks on land.

In the case of legends of floods we can trace them to their culture by the style and pattern of the story, as was done with the Biblical flood narrative to the epid of Gilgamesh.

[ShadowSot]

You have to remember that Ezekiel was written during the exile, the symbolism was meant to display god was all powerful and all seeing.

Someone like 8 bits would probably be better able to break down the symbolism implied by the vision.

Edited August 10, 2015 by ShadowSot

[FTWind]

The extinction of mammoths can and has been documented.

Mass displacement of continents would leave visible marks on geology that would be obvious. Rock is elastic, slow movements over time produce a very different pattern than sudden shifting, which would be dead obvious to any geologist if it occured.

To say nothing of tidal activity which would leave much more than just stories.

The massive crater implicated with the extinction of the dinosaurs left sand deposits that can still be seen millions of years later on the surface, as well as depositing deep ocean rocks on land.

In the case of legends of floods we can trace them to their culture by the style and pattern of the story, as was done with the Biblical flood narrative to the epid of Gilgamesh.

thanks for the detailed explication that helps

[FTWind]

Ok I'm done, now to find another random topic for me to post about, I like to learn so thanks guys

[Space Commander Travis]

Well, it makes a change that you're not trying to insist that you're right and everyone else is wrong, like people do such a lot around here.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I've always stood firm behind the "he's witnessing and struggling to describe the Host of Heaven" for Ezekiel, mostly for the "there's a perfectly good explanation in the Bible" (ie Host of Heaven) that makes sense of the facts presented, and if we're going purely evidentiary then why replace one evidenceless argument (God did it) with another entirely evidenceless argument (Aliens did it).

[Doug1029]

Just wondering could there be any truth to the events in the bible or any other religious text what I mean over exaggerated truth or Mis interpreted truth ? And if not why did the people back in those days just write a bunch of fabricated lies? Money?power? Ideas?

I personally believe that there is a lot of truth in the Bible. It is, after all, a book of folk lore. It is about real places (The Garden of Eden can be identified - both of them.), as can the kingdoms of Cush (There were two.), the site of the "Red Sea Crossing (It was the Heroopolitic Red Sea.)" and many others. A few historical people can also be identified (Tiberius, Baalam, Pontius Pilate). It contains numerous mistakes, but those don't appear to be meant maliciously. The authors thought they were writing history, but they were not scholars, for the most-part, and it simply didn't occur to them that their work would one day need to be verifiable.

To understand it, simply ask "What were they describing? What words would they use to describe what they saw if what they saw was a perfectly-natural event?"

So enjoy it for what it is and don't try to make it something it's not.

Doug

Edited August 10, 2015 by Doug1029

[FTWind]

I've always stood firm behind the "he's witnessing and struggling to describe the Host of Heaven" for Ezekiel, mostly for the "there's a perfectly good explanation in the Bible" (ie Host of Heaven) that makes sense of the facts presented, and if we're going purely evidentiary then why replace one evidenceless argument (God did it) with another entirely evidenceless argument (Aliens did it).

because I still hold on to the belief that humans are more special than what we think maybe through being gods children or maybe even through alien intervention,or maybe it's just itelligence is a wild card that when put into any species there evolutionary process excels at an exponential rate. Which in all fairness why are we the most evolved out of all animals by leaps and bounds. no animals come even close even though evolution has been taking place for millions of years

[Doug1029]

Mammoths didn't suddenly die out, they petered out over time.

And there isn't the sort of geological evidence you'd expect to see if something like this happened.

The only thing going for it is flood stories, but many cultures don't have flood myths, and several that do came from cultural contamination from Christian missionaries.

In North America, not counting over-hunting in the LA Basin, the extinction of the mammoths was substantially complete 300 years after the beginning of the Younger Dryas, only 300 years after the introduction of the Folsom Point. There were three remnant populations that survived well into the Holocene. They were all pygmy mammoths located on islands - Wrangell Island, the Channel Islands off California and Crete.

For an animal as well-adapted as the mammoth to go extinct in so short a time is remarkable.

There is geologic evidence available, but not enough to explain what happened and how.

I believe the biblical flood was a historical one that occurred about 2807 BC during the First Dynasty. It was widespread through the Mideast and probably humongous, but it wasn't earthshattering. Ask yourself what you would have thought if you had been in Jamestown, Colorado in September 2013. And that was only a thousand-year flood.

Doug

[FTWind]

I've always stood firm behind the "he's witnessing and struggling to describe the Host of Heaven" for Ezekiel, mostly for the "there's a perfectly good explanation in the Bible" (ie Host of Heaven) that makes sense of the facts presented, and if we're going purely evidentiary then why replace one evidenceless argument (God did it) with another entirely evidenceless argument (Aliens did it).

because I still hold on to the belief that humans are more special than what we think maybe through being gods children or maybe even through alien intervention,or maybe it's just itelligence is a wild card that when put into any species there evolutionary process excels at an exponential rate. Which in all fairness why are we the most evolved out of all animals by leaps and bounds. no animals come even close even though evolution has been taking place for millions of years

[ShadowSot]

Mammoth extinction occurs roughly similar to human activity, from hunting sites we see the early natives practiced a wasteful hunting style, wiping out herds. This pmus warming climate where we see populations already declining lead to their extinction, most likely. While see relic populations surviving groups in isolated areas until much later.

Why do you believe a flood gappened on this date?

[eight bits]

SS

Someone like 8 bits would probably be better able to break down the symbolism implied by the vision.

I wish.

There is a taboo in Jewish tradition against saying much about it - or even thinking much about it. From the Mishnah Chagigah 2:1

One may not expound the laws of forbidden sexual relations before three people, nor the account of Creation before two, nor the Divine Chariot before one, unless he is wise and understanding from his own knowledge.

What I think that injunction means is that the vision is something to be meditated upon, rather than "unpacked" or mined for symbols. That would go along with the heavy use of the vision in Jewish mysticiam (and it has been been picked up by Christian mystics, too).

[Hawkins]

Stupid humans don't know what human witnessing is.

A religion acts as a reliable vessel for an important message (truth) to pass along the line of humanity. The method employed to pass such a message is called human witnessing. This is the most efficient way for a truth to be conveyed among humans as long as God has a strong reason not to show up to humans in majority. There's no other way round.

1. Not all religions have a strong reason for their gods to hide behind. If a god is much more superior than humans and he cares about humans he should show up publicly to guide humans.

The strong reason for the Christian God to hide behind is that all humans are bound to a covenant which everyone requires faith in order to be saved. God shows up to everyone simultaneously means no one can be saved.

On the other hand, if God doesn't show up to anyone, then no humans can get to know who God is. No humans can know what are God's requirements set forth for humans to follow.

The only way which works for a hiding God to make Himself known to humans, to make His requirements known to humans is to show Himself up to a small group of direct witnesses (explicitly His prophets and chosen witnesses), and for them to write about Him and what He wants then for others (humans in majority) to believe or not.

There's no other way round for such a truth to be conveyed.

2. Now which God can explicitly name this method of conveying truth?

Multiple accounts of witnessing, witnesses, prophets being explicit called God's witnesses, emphasizing on no false witnessing allowed, these are all unique characteristics of Christianity.

No other gods can be true in this perspective.

Moreover, no witnessing can be made more valid than those who martyred themselves for what is said and done. Today we have photos and videos in supporting our witnessing though.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Hawkins