Does anyone here doubt material world?

[Mikko-kun]

So for everyone who's a believer, whether it's ETs or god or spirits or whatever the sceptic might deny... even qi & lay on hands healing and such... and for everyone but especially you

Do you think material world is just an illusion and there's a more real, spiritual or such world? Do you actually experience it like this? If you want, please share your reason why you see the world like that, did it come from reasoning or did you notice something in your everyday reality...?

I ask because I believe you should first and foremost seek counsel from your own experience and your own sense. Until you know by yourself it's more or less an open game.

[+OverSword]

I doubt the material world and suspect we may be a simulated reality. Not just reality but we inhabitants are simulations as well. But I also doubt that in favor of a material world.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Holy catastic, Mikko! This is awesome.

I often thought, is this real, or is this some form of reality to me only. I often reflect on what is real, and what is not. I tend to consider various things, dealing with the spiritual aspects, and what is real aspects.

Now, I feel I am very spiritual, in a very New Age way. But to be truthful, most of the time, I see the world I commune in, as realistic. I feel there is more, but not that it's interplaying with reality or it's reality itself. Maybe it's my subconscious trying to keep me sane. (Good luck on that Stubbs ) but I like the material world, but think the spiritual world is a great part of it.

[Treppanierolumenarch]

I doubt the material world to the extent which Immanuel Kant did. Reality we experience is the manifestation of our senses decoding stimuli. There is a true, pure essence to everything but we only perceive a filtered version due to the limitations of the human mind. Over time our brains build their own symbolic habits and we project ourselves onto our environment, taking us even further from true phenomena. I believe "spiritual experiences" are moments when we can abandon our identity and habits to allow new thought forms to emerge. But still we are only getting a humans view of the world, not the true big picture.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Treppanierolumenarch

[Duke Wellington]

So for everyone who's a believer, whether it's ETs or god or spirits or whatever the sceptic might deny... even qi & lay on hands healing and such... and for everyone but especially you

Do you think material world is just an illusion and there's a more real, spiritual or such world? Do you actually experience it like this? If you want, please share your reason why you see the world like that, did it come from reasoning or did you notice something in your everyday reality...?

I ask because I believe you should first and foremost seek counsel from your own experience and your own sense. Until you know by yourself it's more or less an open game.

The material world exists but it comes out of the potential when awareness interacts with it.

[StarMountainKid]

What is 'material'? We can only define something in relation to something else, 'the thing itself' cannot be defined, it just is itself. So, when we look at elementary particles that have no constituants, they're called fundamental particles, that's all you can say about them, they cannot be defined as what they are, only their behavior can be described.

So, I think in this sense, the question, "what is the material that is the universe" is a meaningless question. We can't even say the universe is made of 'something', as the concept 'something' must be relative to 'something else', and there is nothing else, there is just what is.

I would relate this to this thread by saying, Reality is undefinable, it just exists as it is. Does this make it 'real' or not? Is the universe just an etherial whisp of what we can never describe? If so, I think we cannot say the material world is real, as we cannot define fundamental Reality in any way.

In my view, there must be a deeper level of reality from which this material world manifests. One which lies beyond any conceptual possibility. I say this because these non-definable entities behave by strict rules. If there were not some more fundamental realm manifesting these non-definables, they would just behave randomly, or not behave at all.

Nevertheless, I would call this deeper realm. time-less and material-less and causeless. But not eternal or infinite, as these terms would have no meaning within it. A spiritual realm, if you like, or perhaps just a mechanism. A primal essence. Here, the concept of its Reality as we understand it also has no meaning.

[eight bits]

Stubbly

But to be truthful, most of the time, I see the world I commune in, as realistic. I feel there is more, but not that it's interplaying with reality or it's reality itself.

That seems to me to be the way to bet. Even Richard Dawkins found himself coining a word, perinormal, for things whose existence was unsuspected or not understood correctly in the past, but have by now been discovered or explained by the progress of knowledge. Examples might be X-rays, or living examples of species thought to be extinct, or the UFO's that turned out to be the test flights of stealth aircraft prototypes.

Giant fossil bones were thought by the ancients to be the remains of monsters, and they turned ut to be - the remains of monsters. Thomas Jefrferson thought meteorites were a hoax cooked up by New England farmers, but apparently thought Lewis and Clark might run into megafauna on their trip out West.

There is more than meets the eye, it's just that not evrey report about encountering something more is readily credible. Once upon a time "sceptic" meant being discerning about what you believe, not denyng everything unfamiliar wholesale, not being as predictable in rejection as some others are predictable in their credulousness.

[travelnjones]

I do not believe in the material world. I perceive "this" as untrue and ultimately only trust in the spiritual that I can experience. This would be God and myself. I assume you guys are something like me but don't really know.

I have been plagued by feelings of the unreality of existence since I was about 7. In those experiences I would feel a deep clarity, but would feel as if the previous moments of my life had been watched on TV. I say clarity but it was like I was finally viewing life and before I had not really been perceiving things right. I don't like these feeling when I have them.

[StarMountainKid]

I do not believe in the material world. I perceive "this" as untrue and ultimately only trust in the spiritual that I can experience. This would be God and myself. I assume you guys are something like me but don't really know.

I have been plagued by feelings of the unreality of existence since I was about 7. In those experiences I would feel a deep clarity, but would feel as if the previous moments of my life had been watched on TV. I say clarity but it was like I was finally viewing life and before I had not really been perceiving things right. I don't like these feeling when I have them.

Well, I think we're mostly sleepy and drowsy, but we wake up occasionally, then fall back to our dreamy self. Alan Watts and various gurus and the like say this is our natural fear of enlightenment or clarity. We'd rather be our usual, comfortable dozy selves we're used to all these years.

The reality of the material world is measured by our awareness of it. Somnolents only are aware of their own diminutive senses. Waking up is always a shock to the systtem. I wake up only occasionally myself, but I like it when it happens. Makes me distinguish my sleepy times and to stay alert.

[Ashotep]

No I don't doubt the material world, I think its real, just like aliens are real but I think the paranormal one is also. The existance of one doesn't mean the nonexistance of the other. I think they are connected and death is just the stepping stone to the other.

[Grandpa Greenman]

IMO, the material world is real. We might not really understand all its properties. There might be other worlds with other properties and when we experience something paranormal we are seeing into that other world that is no less real.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

What is 'material'? We can only define something in relation to something else, 'the thing itself' cannot be defined, it just is itself. So, when we look at elementary particles that have no constituants, they're called fundamental particles, that's all you can say about them, they cannot be defined as what they are, only their behavior can be described.

So, I think in this sense, the question, "what is the material that is the universe" is a meaningless question. We can't even say the universe is made of 'something', as the concept 'something' must be relative to 'something else', and there is nothing else, there is just what is.

I would relate this to this thread by saying, Reality is undefinable, it just exists as it is. Does this make it 'real' or not? Is the universe just an etherial whisp of what we can never describe? If so, I think we cannot say the material world is real, as we cannot define fundamental Reality in any way.

In my view, there must be a deeper level of reality from which this material world manifests. One which lies beyond any conceptual possibility. I say this because these non-definable entities behave by strict rules. If there were not some more fundamental realm manifesting these non-definables, they would just behave randomly, or not behave at all.

Nevertheless, I would call this deeper realm. time-less and material-less and causeless. But not eternal or infinite, as these terms would have no meaning within it. A spiritual realm, if you like, or perhaps just a mechanism. A primal essence. Here, the concept of its Reality as we understand it also has no meaning.

As the late Robin Williams would say, "Reality! What a concept!"

No, but I hear you, and I think that's deep and I appreciate that.

Stubbly

That seems to me to be the way to bet. Even Richard Dawkins found himself coining a word, perinormal, for things whose existence was unsuspected or not understood correctly in the past, but have by now been discovered or explained by the progress of knowledge. Examples might be X-rays, or living examples of species thought to be extinct, or the UFO's that turned out to be the test flights of stealth aircraft prototypes.

Giant fossil bones were thought by the ancients to be the remains of monsters, and they turned ut to be - the remains of monsters. Thomas Jefrferson thought meteorites were a hoax cooked up by New England farmers, but apparently thought Lewis and Clark might run into megafauna on their trip out West.

There is more than meets the eye, it's just that not evrey report about encountering something more is readily credible. Once upon a time "sceptic" meant being discerning about what you believe, not denyng everything unfamiliar wholesale, not being as predictable in rejection as some others are predictable in their credulousness.

In a sense here, I'm like, "Far out man!!!"

And I think you make good points here. True, what is unexplainable today, could be explainable tommorrow. But that in a way, I could see as a disappointment for me. There's a part of me, that still wants the mystery, the magic, the wonder. The other part of me like that yes, it can be done, because one doesn't know if it's attainable, just not understandable. But the spiritual me still wants the spiritual.

But, I'll get over it. ..............................

no, really.................... I will....................

talk amongst yaselfs............................................

[Stubbly_Dooright]

For some reason, I keep thinking of The Police's "Spirits in the Material world" song.

Granted, it might seem more political, than spiritual, but in a sense, it has that ethereal feel to it.

http://youtu.be/TXcEO_iUoLE

[Duke Wellington]

What is 'material'? We can only define something in relation to something else, 'the thing itself' cannot be defined, it just is itself. So, when we look at elementary particles that have no constituants, they're called fundamental particles, that's all you can say about them, they cannot be defined as what they are, only their behavior can be described.

So, I think in this sense, the question, "what is the material that is the universe" is a meaningless question. We can't even say the universe is made of 'something', as the concept 'something' must be relative to 'something else', and there is nothing else, there is just what is.

I would relate this to this thread by saying, Reality is undefinable, it just exists as it is. Does this make it 'real' or not? Is the universe just an etherial whisp of what we can never describe? If so, I think we cannot say the material world is real, as we cannot define fundamental Reality in any way.

In my view, there must be a deeper level of reality from which this material world manifests. One which lies beyond any conceptual possibility. I say this because these non-definable entities behave by strict rules. If there were not some more fundamental realm manifesting these non-definables, they would just behave randomly, or not behave at all.

Nevertheless, I would call this deeper realm. time-less and material-less and causeless. But not eternal or infinite, as these terms would have no meaning within it. A spiritual realm, if you like, or perhaps just a mechanism. A primal essence. Here, the concept of its Reality as we understand it also has no meaning.

A relative truth is a truth about the universe to you.

An objective truth is a truth about the universe to all humans and beings not just you.

Special Relativity experimentally shows no objective truths exist - the rate at which time flows, the mass of an object, its size, etc, are all relative. There is no truth, no property of an object or aspect of reality, which exists for all humans and beings.

[PrisonerX]

It is not what it seems, but that we must endure it nevertheless is real.

[docyabut2]

Some how I think all life are automatons in the flesh to probe , experienced and record.

[simplybill]

I'll offer this without comment, other than to say the concept is intriguing:

Physicist Gerald Schroeder:

"The startling, totally counterintuitive, yet scientifically proven discoveries of physics reveal that our world, at it's deepest level, is not built of tangible discrete objects. Rather, when we look closely, we find that reality is as gossamer as a thought, that existence is closer to being an association of ideas than a conglomeration of atoms. The dogmatic myth of materialism has been proven to be wanting, more fantasy than fact."

Nobel laureate and biologist George Wald:

"The stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is mind that has composed a physical universe.' "

Edited August 24, 2015 by simplybill

[StarMountainKid]

Chinese Ch'an Master Fa-yung (594-657) said, "The Ultimate Essence of things is what is most important. But in the realm of illusion it becomes different from what it is. The nature of Reality is invisible and cannot be understood by our conscious mind."

In a different sense than Fa-yung's Ch'an Buddhism, his "realm of illusion" I would consider the material world that we experience. Since we are of this illusionary material world, I would consider us as illusion as well, in that the actual Reality is something quite different,

Einstein said, "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one." The illusion seems real because we are part of it. If we could step 'outside', we would see it for what it really is, a sort of magic trick.

[Leonardo]

So for everyone who's a believer, whether it's ETs or god or spirits or whatever the sceptic might deny... even qi & lay on hands healing and such... and for everyone but especially you

Do you think material world is just an illusion and there's a more real, spiritual or such world? Do you actually experience it like this? If you want, please share your reason why you see the world like that, did it come from reasoning or did you notice something in your everyday reality...?

I ask because I believe you should first and foremost seek counsel from your own experience and your own sense. Until you know by yourself it's more or less an open game.

The material reality I experience is only - can only be - a tiny fragment of the entirety of reality, and so it is natural that people past and present entertain doubts as to whether this "entire reality" exists (in the material sense.)

This sense of "unreal reality" is a product of our own limitations as finite individuals, and does not in any way jeopardise the actual reality of "reality".

[Duke Wellington]

The material reality I experience is only - can only be - a tiny fragment of the entirety of reality, and so it is natural that people past and present entertain doubts as to whether this "entire reality" exists (in the material sense.)

This sense of "unreal reality" is a product of our own limitations as finite individuals, and does not in any way jeopardise the actual reality of "reality".

Lets say 50 million people own a PlayStation 4. The console has the potential to run one of a thousand different video games, it isn't the case where owners are limited to a single title. Does the fact that we can each be playing a different computer game make the titles any less real? No, of course it doesn't.

What the universe you're experiencing has arisen from allows a vast number of possibilities to exist and your reality is just one of them. Reality is different for each person but that doesn't make each version any less real. They exist in a material sense but the truths which make it up are truths only relative to you the observer. No objective truths exist in it at all because if they did then people would be restricted to a single reality for all observers, a single game running on the PS4.

If the size of an object is an objective truth then all people would experience it as the same size. Yet, as I am stood closer to it than you I find it appears larger to me. If instead we stand an identical distance away from it yet I'm travelling at 50% the speed of light and you are stationary when we both look at it then the object is larger for you than it is for me. Size, as in my example here, is not an objective truth because it isn't a truth for all possible observers. The same realisation exists for every single aspect of reality from weight to time to speed, etc, etc. Things are real but only real to one person or limited set of persons experiencing it.

[Rlyeh]

Special Relativity experimentally shows no objective truths exist - the rate at which time flows, the mass of an object, its size, etc, are all relative. There is no truth, no property of an object or aspect of reality, which exists for all humans and beings.

And yet the speed of light is the same in all frames of reference.

[Leonardo]

If the size of an object is an objective truth then all people would experience it as the same size.

Not at all, because not all people have the same methods or capabilities to experience the universe equally. That there is any debate about the "reality of the universe" is down to the uniqueness of each individual's experience of it, along with our capacity to both express that experience and understand our own limitations.

[Rlyeh]

Why does the reality of something depend upon people's experiencing it? What if no one experiences it?

Some people think they're the centre of the universe.

[White Unicorn]

The material world exists but it comes out of the potential when awareness interacts with it.

This is exactly as I see it too.

Like the saying home is where the heart is,

Reality is where you place your thought.

Whether a subjective or objective reality is an actuality, it

doesn't matter to the individual who believes it is reality... He lives and reacts and influences the potentialities in that particular level of existence.

It's hard to say if physical world is illusion.. Are we the illusion of the atomic level in a physical world or is the atomic physical natures an illusion to us.

It all realitivity with many different types of worlds or dimensions of potentialities.

[StarMountainKid]

I would say the subjective, psychological differences between people's perceptions of reality demonstrate that objective reality stands apart from our perceptions of it. The mind creates its own version of the material world, to use the OP's term, for its own conveinience.

There are no things in the world, things are thinks. Things are ideas, mental conceptions. There is no 'desk' in front of me. 'Desk' is an idea, a concept created by my mind.

One needs to rid the mind of all these mental conceptualizations to see actual reality.