Does anyone here doubt material world?

[Lilly]

Whatever its origins the material world (or whatever it is) does indeed impose certain 'limitations' on us. Try not eating and drinking for awhile and see how you feel. Jump off a high structure/object and see where you end up (probably an emergency room). Reality of the 'material world' makes itself known quite adeptly.

[lightly]

Well, I already qualified that question with the understanding that our investigations into quantum physics leads to discoveries which produce usable technologies, but do you interact with those technologies on a quantum level? Unless you do, then how you experience the material universe has not changed.

well.. Yes, How i Interact with it Physically does not change but how i Think about it changes as my understandings and perceptions change. How i think about and perceive things is part of my experience of them?

[Leonardo]

well.. Yes, How i Interact with it Physically does not change but how i Think about it changes as my understandings and perceptions change. How i think about and perceive things is part of my experience of them?

Does it?

No person interacts with the material universe at the quantum level. Even those scientists at CERN and other facilities who are directly involved in discoveries at the quantum level do not actually 'interact' with the quantum universe.

Okay, we have knowledge regarding this quantum universe - but that knowledge has no effect on our interaction with the material universe. This is why I said (in different words) in an earlier post we should consider it as if there were actually two universes side-by-side.

The people we talk to are still people, not a collection of quantum objects. The material objects we interact with are still material objects, not just a conglomeration of immaterial forces and energies.

Our perception of the material universe does not change, but our understanding of the 'other universe' that exists alongside the one we engage with does change. But this 'other universe' is not our everyday reality.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Leonardo

[lightly]

A child might be terrified of falling leaves... he learns that falling leaves are not something to be terrified of... His understanding and perception and EXPERIENCE changes.. while falling leaves have not.

I get what your saying. I'm saying that i can't seem to separate my understanding of something from my perception of it.

[Frank Merton]

The point is often made by modern scientists and science popularizers that we evolved in a specific size and speed-of-time environment, and our senses provide qualia such as color and solidity and sound timbre (so we can distinguish a roar from an animal from a roar from the wind) and so on, but this is just for our survival and convenience, and do not really "exist" except in our minds. This is what illusions are all about -- arranging things so that our minds tell us things that we can with measurement or rearrangement see are not so.

It is a problem -- we know that we know nothing of the external world except from our sensory input, and we also can prove that our senses regularly censor what we see and sometimes outright lie to us. With experiment and equipment we can generally figure this out, but not all the time, and especially not so when dealing things that live in much faster time frames or much smaller or larger realms (the insect has to be concerned, for instance, about surface tension while we normally ignore it).

[The Necromancer]

So for everyone who's a believer, whether it's ETs or god or spirits or whatever the sceptic might deny... even qi & lay on hands healing and such... and for everyone but especially you

Do you think material world is just an illusion and there's a more real, spiritual or such world? Do you actually experience it like this? If you want, please share your reason why you see the world like that, did it come from reasoning or did you notice something in your everyday reality...?

I ask because I believe you should first and foremost seek counsel from your own experience and your own sense. Until you know by yourself it's more or less an open game.

This is according to my spiritual beliefs (Advaita Vedantin):

https://en.wikipedia...Advaita_Vedanta

We believe that the world is an illusion (Maya/Mithya) that has been 'superimposed' upon an underlying, transcendent reality (Brahman).

It states that only the Ultimate Reality (Brahman/Atman/Soul) exists and every thing else is just designed to detract the mind and ego away from this ultimate realisation.

Your last sentence brought a tear to my eye as I am just beginning to understand this myself now.

'Seek counsel from your own experience and sense. Until you know by yourself, it's more or less an open game' - TRUE!

I am just wondering now how to fit all that onto a public internet forum...or don't I?

*like button.

Edited October 21, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Paranormalcy]

I'm not reading the 6 previous pages, so this may restate someone else's views.

I don't "doubt" the material world. I believe there may be parts of it, things about it, we don't full understand, or which may have qualities or properties we don't even know about. Like last year (I think?), the Walking Boulders phenomenon in Death Valley were understood finally - in 2014! There could be things like that, or even weirder, in store for us.

So while I don't discount there are questions or possibilities, I don't think either we can RELY on those possibilities, at the risk of NOT taking into account our CURRENT understanding - as in the case of "I saw a guy go around here to this solid wall and now he's gone - I guess walls may spontaneously open up and swallow people" - this is not an acceptable distance to leap.

[barbco196]

I don't believe we will ever know. Then I was also asked by a good friend, "why does it even matter?" I guess it doesn't. I mean, if I was told that this reality is just simulated, would I live my life any different? Would you?

[Tatetopa]

There has been some back and forth about quantum physics versus the classical view. Some would say we cannot interact with the quantum world. I would ask what about photons? Light. The essence of light with its particle and wave duality, its weird properties in double slit experiments, the ability to take all paths at once seems pretty quantum to me. We see a quantum universe, our colors are quanta. But as somebody pointed out, that is not the real question.

I am inclined do doubt that the universe is an illusion with some Platonic "real" universe underpinning it. Granted, the universe may not be limited to our perception of it, yet does that indicate a Socratic "essence of perfect chair" in the field of universal being? Not necessarily. I think my perception of reality is consistent from elementary particles to strings and bubble universes. I must admit that doesn't make it any more real, it just works for me.

If our perceived universe overlies something, it may be no reality rather than ultimate reality. We could be as self consistent and bound by universal laws that we could investigate if we were algorithms running in a computer somewhere. Maybe an investigator wanted to study 21st century history in the 34th century by running a simulation; or a multitude of parallel simulations. I think in the Matrix, our minds were linked in a computer fantasy while our bodies were being exploited. Why not go all the way and say there never were any bodies, just algorithms. Happy computing.

[Frank Merton]

There are a number of things that are possible and that if they are true would render even so much as talking about them a waste of time. Solipsism, the idea that only oneself exists and all else is a fantasy, is one. Another is that we lack free will and that all that happens to us is either predetermined or random is another -- I would call this "hard materialism." The idea that there is no unitary truth in the universe -- that justice and beauty and right and wrong and things of this sort are just human inventions, seems to me to be of this sort too.

The young college student, the "sophomore" (derived from a word meaning "wise" and another meaning "stupid") delights in shocking people with radical doctrine of this sort, imagining that they haven't been thought of before. They are wise to realize things are not so simple, and stupid to nevertheless think things are simple.

[qxcontinuum]

pinch yourself hard , do you feel pain ? if yes you are real

[Frank Merton]

pinch yourself hard , do you feel pain ? if yes you are real

Ah but what about the pain? Is it real?

[Rlyeh]

There has been some back and forth about quantum physics versus the classical view. Some would say we cannot interact with the quantum world.

Then they've never heard of a particle accelerator.

[SHaYap]

OUr collective reality is really just a reality based on reconstructed ideals and newly learned ideas dictated by what we are able to influence on material/matter , and so far it is proving to be a maybe not so good idea in general ~

~

[Davros of Skaro]

This is real and natural.

We do not see/experience the ultranatural often, but people want to believe they do.

[XenoFish]

Ask your toe if the material world exist the next time you stub it.

[The Necromancer]

I'm starting to doubt it all again.

Especially after being told over...and over...and over... not to believe anything I see or hear through the media and press.

How do we know a Russian plane even crashed at all? If people are saying; 'don't believe what anybody says about how it did'?

How do we know if the Palmyra Arch still stands? Unless we actually live in Syria and can go there...because we cannot trust reporters or their cameras

anymore can we?

Cameras lie now and everything is either photoshopped or accused of being photoshopped and there are no 'true images' to be had anymore...anywhere!

People tell me they get their information from 'all over' and yet there is not ONE credible source of news or information on television or the whole WWW...because everybody wants to put their own political spin on it.

My grandmother went to her grave believing the Moon landing was fake. Was it? How do you know? Were you actually there?

Yep, I am starting to see where she was coming from.

At the moment, I'm not existing anywhere beyond or outside my house because everything outside my house...even outside my own mind just 'isn't there' anymore, because there's no way I have of proving it really is there.

I am only typing on here as an outlet for my thoughts, but I feel totally out of my comfort zone doing it.

What's to say that AI hasn't turned you all into an army of internet 'chat bots' all with pre-determined personalities?

Nope, I have solipsisized ( I make up words all the time) myself into a huge hole here, and unless I am prepared to say "well, I believe what the nightly news shows me" and live in blissful ignorance, I may as well just forget the whole world exists.

Edited November 1, 2015 by The Necromancer

[XenoFish]

I've had similar thoughts so you're not so out of place. I've even bought into the matrix theory for a while. Considering that everything we experience is based on external stimuli that our brain processes. It has made me wonder if it was a possibility. Even thinking that ghost were perhaps after images or residual information within this neural network.

Sometimes I wonder that our dreams are reality and the waking world is a dream. That for some reason we are seeking to experience this reality. Compared to the lucid and surreal realm of dreams. Even that maybe, just maybe reincarnation is real in a sense. That our consciousness is installed into new bodies to rack up experience.

So you can really play around with the concept of reality.

[Frank Merton]

Ask your toe if the material world exist the next time you stub it.

All that tells you is you experience a particular sensation called pain, which says nothing about the material world since pain is not material but made up by your brain.

[The Necromancer]

I've had similar thoughts so you're not so out of place. I've even bought into the matrix theory for a while. Considering that everything we experience is based on external stimuli that our brain processes. It has made me wonder if it was a possibility. Even thinking that ghost were perhaps after images or residual information within this neural network.

Sometimes I wonder that our dreams are reality and the waking world is a dream. That for some reason we are seeking to experience this reality. Compared to the lucid and surreal realm of dreams. Even that maybe, just maybe reincarnation is real in a sense. That our consciousness is installed into new bodies to rack up experience.

So you can really play around with the concept of reality.

It's gone way beyond that point for me now.

Sometimes I just feel like telling everybody; "screw you all, I know what I know and I don't effin' care what you think"...so why am I on a chat forum and not writing a book then (or leaving a time capsule for more historical inaccuracies)?

Why aren't I spending more time with my pals on the 'other side' seeing as the ones on this side seem to share the same sentiments I do about having other people shut up and minding their own business.

I have more associates who are 'dead' than 'living'....let's just put it that way.

I also found out when I was very young that I could live inside my own brain and be totally happy there...but I still needed to come back into the 'real world' to have my basic human life necessities met...like eating, sleeping, dressing, bathroom-ing...

I'm not really a social creature anyway (I'm quite misanthropic, actually), but now and then, I like to stick my head out of my shell to see what's 'going on in the world'...but the same old crap is going on now as it was 20 years ago...as it is every time I poke my head out of my shell.

Let me ask you this...if we cannot trust the news, or our leaders, or the 'experts' and their 'pseudo-scientific' claims, or online content, or 'anybody else'...then what can we trust and believe in?

The inevitable answer is 'yourself'....but that takes us back to square 1 again when it becomes "Well I believe in myself, so whether you do or not is totally irrelevant to me'.

....and all human debate and conversation ceases at that very point and I am existentially alone once more.

Edited November 1, 2015 by The Necromancer

[XenoFish]

Which is why I see no point in religion as it's just another bag of lies. Every rule our society lives by is artificial. Just people conforming to the will of another. The rules do not really exist. They exist because they give a sense of control. Media tells you what they want you to hear and other information sources give you what they want you to know. But no one truly knows anything. It's all speculation even when it's fact.

[The Necromancer]

That's the thing though...how can something exist as 'fact' and 'speculation' simultaneously?

...and with that, I have just gone from 'Ectoplasmic Residue' to 'Apparition'.

Edited November 1, 2015 by The Necromancer

[Bendy Demon]

All that tells you is you experience a particular sensation called pain, which says nothing about the material world since pain is not material but made up by your brain.

Then why not try to sever your hand with a circular saw since it is all something made up by your brain anyways? Blood loss and pain? All just an evil illusion invented by your equally evil brain and says nothing about this evil and illusory material world.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Ryu

[Frank Merton]

Then why not try to sever your hand with a circular saw since it is all something made up by your brain anyways? Blood loss and pain? All just an evil illusion invented by your equally evil brain and says nothing about this evil and illusory material world.

All you say is beside the point. Where do you think pain comes from if it isn't invented by the brain? Are there little "pain" demons floating about or something?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I'm starting to doubt it all again.

Especially after being told over...and over...and over... not to believe anything I see or hear through the media and press.

How do we know a Russian plane even crashed at all? If people are saying; 'don't believe what anybody says about how it did'?

How do we know if the Palmyra Arch still stands? Unless we actually live in Syria and can go there...because we cannot trust reporters or their cameras

anymore can we?

Cameras lie now and everything is either photoshopped or accused of being photoshopped and there are no 'true images' to be had anymore...anywhere!

People tell me they get their information from 'all over' and yet there is not ONE credible source of news or information on television or the whole WWW...because everybody wants to put their own political spin on it.

My grandmother went to her grave believing the Moon landing was fake. Was it? How do you know? Were you actually there?

Yep, I am starting to see where she was coming from.

At the moment, I'm not existing anywhere beyond or outside my house because everything outside my house...even outside my own mind just 'isn't there' anymore, because there's no way I have of proving it really is there.

I am only typing on here as an outlet for my thoughts, but I feel totally out of my comfort zone doing it.

What's to say that AI hasn't turned you all into an army of internet 'chat bots' all with pre-determined personalities?

Nope, I have solipsisized ( I make up words all the time) myself into a huge hole here, and unless I am prepared to say "well, I believe what the nightly news shows me" and live in blissful ignorance, I may as well just forget the whole world exists.

I hear ya. Sometimes, I wonder about that too. Unless it's happening right in front of your face, (and you know it's not a hallucination) what can you trust. The way I see it, getting your info from many sources, and seeing a consistency might give a step up to what you know. I guess, you can't definitely say that is the truth for sure, but I think it's better, well in my opinion anyways.

It's gone way beyond that point for me now.

Sometimes I just feel like telling everybody; "screw you all, I know what I know and I don't effin' care what you think"...so why am I on a chat forum and not writing a book then (or leaving a time capsule for more historical inaccuracies)?

Why aren't I spending more time with my pals on the 'other side' seeing as the ones on this side seem to share the same sentiments I do about having other people shut up and minding their own business.

I have more associates who are 'dead' than 'living'....let's just put it that way.

I also found out when I was very young that I could live inside my own brain and be totally happy there...but I still needed to come back into the 'real world' to have my basic human life necessities met...like eating, sleeping, dressing, bathroom-ing...

I'm not really a social creature anyway (I'm quite misanthropic, actually), but now and then, I like to stick my head out of my shell to see what's 'going on in the world'...but the same old crap is going on now as it was 20 years ago...as it is every time I poke my head out of my shell.

Let me ask you this...if we cannot trust the news, or our leaders, or the 'experts' and their 'pseudo-scientific' claims, or online content, or 'anybody else'...then what can we trust and believe in?

The inevitable answer is 'yourself'....but that takes us back to square 1 again when it becomes "Well I believe in myself, so whether you do or not is totally irrelevant to me'.

....and all human debate and conversation ceases at that very point and I am existentially alone once more.

And I would agree with you on this as well. (I'm pretty much introverted myself) but that is why I like add up the info from many sources, I guess it gives me the power to come to conclusions myself.

And I guess, as you noticed, the world can be like this, as has been, but now the safe way, is how you direct it for yourself.

I often find myself reflecting on the maybe there is more that I realize in reality or that we are all just a dreams. What sometimes eases me on this, is stop and settle in my 'reality' for the time being, because that is what is in front of me. I figure, there is a reason for it, and it will work itself out. *shrugs*

That's the thing though...how can something exist as 'fact' and 'speculation' simultaneously?

...and with that, I have just gone from 'Ectoplasmic Residue' to 'Apparition'.

Congratulations!

I chose my label, considering I wanted to be consistent......................................... and confusing at the same time.