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ABOTU

Bush

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bathory

how long is a peice of string?

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Shadowsleet

A peice of string doesn't cost more and more lives the longer it goes on.

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Raistlin Majere
I was watching the morning news today and they talked about iraq since america came in. They were interviewing a journalist who had been there and he said that america is actually causing a new generation of terrorists. He said people who were once freedom fighters have now become holy fighters. So instead of fighting for freedom they now fight for Allah. So America is creating a new generation of terrorists in a war that was supposed to stop terrorism.

Good work Bush!

390190[/snapback]

You know what they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. That other man happens to be a group of evil radicals disgracing the name of the admirable religion of Islam. We're not making new terrorists, just doing what we're supposed to do and DESTROYING them is envoking their full wrath. And we are winning this war. It's just a matter of time. It's nothing like Vietnam, and I feel like slashing Nader, CNN, and Micheal Moore for saying that this is like Bush's Vietnam. Also, we'd have won vietnam if we had more discipline and just held out better. This war is going to last longer, but I think we'll be the obvious victors in the end.

Personally, I think Bush is a good president, not the greatest, but at least he's adressing the terrorists instead of complimenting them like that d********ed fool Jimmy Carter. And look at Clinton. We had a missile aimed at Bin Laden's mouth while he had his missile in Lewinski's mouth. Did he order the attack? Of course not, because he's just a terrorist, he's not going to do anything, right?

In domestic issues, here's the good news-there's not going to be an income tax in four years. That's right. We're just going to have a nation wide 10% sales tax and a flat monthly tax rate that's incredibly small. The stock market president wants you to invest your money, that will improve the economy, greatly. And, with the no child left behind act being improved and taking effect, we'll have more people in high paying careers than before, and that will improve the economy as well.

If we destroy the terrorists abroad and set up democracies in the middle east, freedom will spread. And when freedom is in power, then, and only then, will it all be over. Hatred can only survive in hating, racist societies. Giving equal rights to all will change this. And I congradulate president Bush for realising this.

Edited by Raistlin Majere

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bathory
A peice of string doesn't cost more and more lives the longer it goes on.

and your point being?

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Shadowsleet
In domestic issues, here's the good news-there's not going to be an income tax in four years. That's right. We're just going to have a nation wide 10% sales tax and a flat monthly tax rate that's incredibly small.

Garbage. What's he going to use to pay for his war, and keep the country afloat? If he claims he's not going to increase taxes, then Bush is doing one of two things: Lying, or leading the country towards backrupcy (again).

and your point being?

What was yours? "We'll just keep on fighting and fighting regardless of the consequences, and the cost, both financially and in life? Because that's the big tough American way"?

Edited by Shadowsleet

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Raistlin Majere

With the sales tax, investments, and everything else, it will finance it. Also, there's the case of the billions of unaccounted for tax dollars ever year that he can use. Read the whole thing I say before you post.

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Asterix
With the sales tax, investments, and everything else, it will finance it. Also, there's the case of the billions of unaccounted for tax dollars ever year that he can use. Read the whole thing I say before you post.

390439[/snapback]

How can you count on sales tax, investments and...everything else ( I wonder what's that) when American Dollar is right now the least preffered currency to invest on?

The dollar continuing to plummet after the U. S. presidential elections on November 2, now trades above €1.32 in foreign exchange markets. Trust in the American economy is gradually weakening. Foreign investors are withdrawing from American markets.The U. S. Federal Reserve does not favor raising increase rates radically, while problems caused by the weak dollar have risen throughout the world.

The people affected the most are those who try to earn dollars by holding dollars, while spending other currencies. First Europe and Japan and many other countries experienced losses in their export markets out of fear that their currencies will be overvalued; on the other hand, the United States, inspite of the advantages of a weak dollar, still has gigantic foreign trade and current account deficits. Meanwhile, in Turkey, the dollar is falling due to two reasons: one is the exchange rate, and the other is the entry of "hot money."

(From Zaman Daily

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bathory
What was yours? "We'll just keep on fighting and fighting regardless of the consequences, and the cost, both financially and in life? Because that's the big tough American way"?

you fight until the threat is gone, or at the very least you are in a position to control the threat.

My point was that he was asking how long will it last in response to my comment saying that people expect thigns straight away, why you bothered to enter the arguement i do not know as your comments weren't relevant in the context of what was being said.

We'll keep fighting and fighting BECAUSE of the consequences of what could happen if we don't, the costs are unfortunate, but unavoidable.

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Asterix
you fight until the threat is gone, or at the very least you are in a position to control the threat.

We'll keep fighting and fighting BECAUSE of the consequences of what could happen if we don't, the costs are unfortunate, but unavoidable.

390498[/snapback]

There are times in which failure to see the correct moment to accept defeat and retreat, could mean total and utter destruction. In WW2 for example, towards the end, German generals were imploring Hitler to allow them to surrender, and he would furiously (and in hysteria, as it is said) would shout that they're all cowards and they should stay put. Of course this is only an example, and there is no comparison with the present situations, but let's take another case, where again USA was involved. What would happen if the United Stated wouldn't realize (after almost 10 bloody years) that Vietnam was a lost cause?

It is idiotic to engage into a battle that you can't estimate its length or outcome. But it is even more idiotic to refuse to disengage just because "Since we're in it, we have to end it".

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bathory
There are times in which failure to see the correct moment to accept defeat and retreat, could mean total and utter destruction. In WW2 for example, towards the end, German generals were imploring Hitler to allow them to surrender, and he would furiously (and in hysteria, as it is said) would shout that they're all cowards and they should stay put. Of course this is only an example, and there is no comparison with the present situations, but let's take another case, where again USA was involved. What would happen if the United Stated wouldn't realize (after almost 10 bloody years) that Vietnam was a lost cause?

It is idiotic to engage into a battle that you can't estimate its length or outcome. But it is even more idiotic to refuse to disengage just because "Since we're in it, we have to end it".

what is your point? you are using examples which have no relevance to the current situation. The US isn't losing, the US isn't trapped in a quagmire, the US isn't facing annihilation if it continues to fight the fight that noone else is willing to.

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Shadowsleet
the US isn't facing annihilation if it continues to fight the fight that noone else is willing to.

Again with the "noone else is willing to" rubbish...Do you think the call it a coalition just for fun or something?

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Asterix
The US isn't losing, the US isn't trapped in a quagmire, the US isn't facing annihilation if it continues to fight the fight that noone else is willing to.

390585[/snapback]

Would you like to rephrase that?

In Vietnam, too, USA was not "losing", since it didn't lose control of the air, the sea, and major cities. Shaigon fell with the American troops pulling out. Yet, USA lost the war.

Every war has a strategic goal, which is directly relevant to the price (casualties, economical and political drawbacks). Each politician, Bush administration in our case, has to consult with his generals and evaluate how many casualties and economico-political drawbacks are acceptable for the given goal, which is a stable and west-friendly Iraq. Put these two in the scale..

So far, there are 20.000 wounded American soldiers and 1500 dead. Also, there are more than 15.000 civilians dead. Try now to evaluate, how close to its goal US is, and especially how close it can get. I remind you here, that by stable and safe Iraq, as far as US is concerned, it means stable and safe to establish permanent military personell. Because that's what this is all about; the replacement of Saudi Arabia as permanent base in the Gulf.

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bathory
Again with the "noone else is willing to" rubbish...Do you think the call it a coalition just for fun or something?

my bad, include the coalition in this when i refer to america from now on thanks:)

Would you like to rephrase that?

no, i think you'll find that the US was winning Vietnam from a strategic stand point, it managed to keep the vast majority of the south vietnamese provinces commie free, and in such successfully defend south vietnam, yes the US pulled out and yes the north vietnamese then broke the cease fire and invaded.

So far, there are 20.000 wounded American soldiers and 1500 dead. Also, there are more than 15.000 civilians dead. Try now to evaluate, how close to its goal US is, and especially how close it can get. I remind you here, that by stable and safe Iraq, as far as US is concerned, it means stable and safe to establish permanent military personell. Because that's what this is all about; the replacement of Saudi Arabia as permanent base in the Gulf.

and? I'm still not seeing the relevance to my how long is a piece of string comment? is the US and its allies succeeding in its strategy?

personally i'll think they'll be in iraq for maybe 1 or 2 more years

afghanistan probably similar, theres only 15000 troops there though

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Asterix
i think you'll find that the US was winning Vietnam from a strategic stand point, it managed to keep the vast majority of the south vietnamese provinces commie free

Aha! Now you're getting to the bottom of this. Indeed, USA could hold their ground in Vietnam. They could, from a strategic point, to keep the south commie free. But when you balance that with the immense loses, both in lives, equipment, and in other losses (e.g. financial and political) then, to put it simply, it ain't worth it...That's why they packed their stuff and went back.

In Iraq nowadays, there is a similar situation. Losses in human lives are amassing, political allowance is very little (Bush administration doesn't even have the 100% support, or even a large majority, of Americans, let alone the international community), and the US economy just can't take much more of this. Soon there will be a point in which there will be an evaluation of "what we have", "what we can have", and "how much more we need to give, in order to get it".

If they find a way to achieve their goals within a reasonable time limit, then all will flow smoothly. Otherwise, there will be serious problems...

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zephyr

The comparison of the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan with that of Vietnam is totally irrelevant and misleading! A US pull out before making sure that the lunatics who are still half way alive and standing-by in Iraq and Afghanistan are completely out of the picture and the new regimes strong enough, would be the end of civilization as we know it! Imagine the behaviour of Taliban again in control of Afghanistan after a US defeat or pull out! w00t.gif Or their Iraqi equivalents backed by Al-Qaida in power in Iraq! w00t.gif This is no longer a question of simple politics or economics, or West against East, but the future of humanity as a whole and no scale can measure that! crying.gif

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Asterix
The comparison of the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan with that of Vietnam is totally irrelevant and misleading!

390696[/snapback]

First of all, nothing in recent History is irrelevant, and misleading is a misleading word itself. It sounds as if we should close our eyes to the mistakes of the past. (We do agree that Vietnam was a mistake, correct?)

Believe me, nothing would please me more as a citizen of the world, than to see the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq being disarmed, their leaders brought to justice, their organizations being destroyed. But that doesn't mean that blood (both of US servicemen and civilians) has to be spilled without limits...

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MichaelS
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will change - but  not while Bush is in office. To quote my 10 year old daughter, she went to vote with me (Kerry) "how about the states that elected Kerry have him and the states that voted for Bush have him"  laugh.gif

*dreaming of moving to Canada

388795[/snapback]

That would certainly be an interesting thing to have happen. original.gif

*dreaming of a certain woman moving to Canada*

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Raistlin Majere
you fight until the threat is gone, or at the very least you are in a position to control the threat.

We'll keep fighting and fighting BECAUSE of the consequences of what could happen if we don't, the costs are unfortunate, but unavoidable.

390498[/snapback]

There are times in which failure to see the correct moment to accept defeat and retreat, could mean total and utter destruction. In WW2 for example, towards the end, German generals were imploring Hitler to allow them to surrender, and he would furiously (and in hysteria, as it is said) would shout that they're all cowards and they should stay put. Of course this is only an example, and there is no comparison with the present situations, but let's take another case, where again USA was involved. What would happen if the United Stated wouldn't realize (after almost 10 bloody years) that Vietnam was a lost cause?

It is idiotic to engage into a battle that you can't estimate its length or outcome. But it is even more idiotic to refuse to disengage just because "Since we're in it, we have to end it".

390524[/snapback]

Vietnam's kill ratio was nothing like it was in WW2. The death total of Americans was 53,000, While the Vietnamese death total was Over 1.2 million. We're not the ones that lost the greater ammount of lives, it was those fools who tried to cling on who did. And because of their willingness to support an evil system, they killed our brave boys. But we fought them hard, and we'd have won, we just needed better stratgeies. We so won that war, statistically.

Edited by Raistlin Majere

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Thanato

Comunism isnt an Evil System, it is accualy a good system is implemented correctly its better then capatolism. Cuba is a good example of how comunism can work, Cuba takes care of its citizens through educating them and Health care, but because the US has trade embargos on them they are a poor nation.

~Thanato

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Raistlin Majere

I meant the Evil System as the Asian communisms.

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ABOTU
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will change - but  not while Bush is in office. To quote my 10 year old daughter, she went to vote with me (Kerry) "how about the states that elected Kerry have him and the states that voted for Bush have him"  laugh.gif

*dreaming of moving to Canada

388795[/snapback]

I love it.. wish I could meet her original.gif

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ABOTU

Just wanted to thank you all for posting you opinions. I like learning about y'all.

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The Caspian Hare
Comunism isnt an Evil System, it is accualy a good system is implemented correctly its better then capatolism. Cuba is a good example of how comunism can work, Cuba takes care of its citizens through educating them and Health care, but because the US has trade embargos on them they are a poor nation.

~Thanato

391455[/snapback]

Are you being facetious?

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zephyr
It sounds as if we should close our eyes to the mistakes of the past. (We do agree that Vietnam was a mistake, correct?)

Believe me, nothing would please me more as a citizen of the world, than to see the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq being disarmed, their leaders brought to justice, their organizations being destroyed

Vietnam has to be debated in its own context! To extend it to Afghanistan and Iraq is wrong and misleading!

And how do you exactly propose that the world does that? A US pull out of these two countries before their governments are strong enough would be a disaster of unmeasurable proportions! As for blood being spilled, it's up to the foreign terrorists and their backward supporters to stop terrorizing the people of Iraq and let the elections take place! Murdering Iraqi police officers can only prolonge the occupation and that's what these lunatics want, more blood! In reality they dont give a damn about neither Iraq nor Afghanistan since these were the same guys who were committing massacres of civilian populations when they were in control of those two countries! wacko.gif

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ABOTU

Wow... all I wanted was to have peoples opinions on Bush but we're getting into a fist fight *steps a few steps away* I'll stay out of it though. It's actually kind of entertaining hearing about your comments from 2 perspectives. But no one is probably listening to me so I'll sit back and shutup*munches popcorn*

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