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VerdeICe

Success with demons?

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Hudds

Frankly, I find that very insulting. When I stop learning new stuff it will be time for euthanasia....

Why would you not want to share your evidence? If it is truly evidentiary, then by definition you can back it up. If you can't do that it's just another story, and don't we humans love stories. Even us skeptics...

I *love* to share my evidence for stuff. Whether it be cites, or images, or maths or physics or biology, or just basic logic or using my imaging abilities to duplicate hoaxes and show how it was done.. it all helps others to learn, and I learn as I go too. That is, as long as the readers WANT to learn.

That sort of stuff is not embraced by those who have a worldview they do not wish to ever be challenged...

I simply answered a question that Sakari asked another member, to make it clear to him that some of us do have evidence of demons existence. That does not mean I was willing to show or prove to him, In all experience in many threads I feel it's a waste of time trying to prove to skeptics.

Now, it would great to continue with the thread.

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Hudds

They do laugh. They do appear to do it "For the Evulz." They don't seem angry all the time.

That's true, I agree. I have in the past said all kinds of things to them that may anger anyone else, yet demons seemed to had kept a cooler head but with a firmer tone. I wouldn't recommend trying to anger them as the results may not end up the same.

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Daughter of the Nine Moons

I am more then glad to share evidence with those who are genuinely interested, but am not willing to share the evidence with those who are obviously here to dispute (Which is clear as day) no matter what evidence you give them, and to me it's a waste of time.

At the end of the day, we all have a choice to either speak to or share information with whom we want or not.

lol good grief, what a load of nonsense. To say you have evidence but are unwilling to provided it, what you are really saying is that you are unable or unwilling to support your evidence and the we are to take your word that your evidence exists.

Right-O!

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Sakari

I am more then glad to share evidence with those who are genuinely interested, but am not willing to share the evidence with those who are obviously here to dispute (Which is clear as day) no matter what evidence you give them, and to me it's a waste of time.

At the end of the day, we all have a choice to either speak to or share information with whom we want or not.

I simply answered a question that Sakari asked another member, to make it clear to him that some of us do have evidence of demons existence. That does not mean I was willing to show or prove to him, In all experience in many threads I feel it's a waste of time trying to prove to skeptics.

Now, it would great to continue with the thread.

For both.

I all ready posted in good detail that I ( and other " skeptics " ) are not on this site to argue. We are here because we enjoy these topics. And I am damn sure all of us would LOVE to see evidence that would change our minds on topics. We all have interests in them. We would all be able to say " there it is, factual evidence finally ! ", instead of just claims, trickery, and disappointment.

As others have said, if you are going to claim to have evidence, than show it. If you do not, or can not, or make excuses as to why you will not, than you have just established yourself in a very poor setting. We have all seen this so many times.

To myself, things like this show you are the one hear to just " argue ", not the " skeptics ". ( we are here to teach and learn by the way )

As I said, if your not willing to show " us ", than show a University or two. We will all read bout it later in some journal.

If you are here to discuss, and share experiences/evidence openly, and not take offense to someone having different ideas, than welcome. If not, move along, because this is not the place for that in all honesty.

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Hudds

If you are here to discuss, and share experiences/evidence openly, and not take offense to someone having different ideas, than welcome. If not, move along, because this is not the place for that in all honesty.

We are going in circles here.

I simply answered a question that you asked another member, that some of us do have evidence of demons existence.

When I decide to open a new thread post, I may share some of things that I collected over the past years.

Now, as I said before, it would great to continue with this thread.

Edited by Hudds

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Sakari

When I decide to open a new thread post, I may share some of things that I collected over the past years.

I / we look forward to that.

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Hudds

If you'd want to open a thread on the topic in general, I have a few anecdotal evidences to contribute. Granted, I can't prove that these experiences actually happened, but at least it's something...

Yes, sure why not. We may also get some more members that want to contribute their evidences. I will let you when I'm opening a thread on topic in general. Thanks!

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Sakari

Yes, sure why not. We may also get some more members that want to contribute their evidences. I will let you when I'm opening a thread on topic in general. Thanks!

Hudds, I will also contribute a couple of things I still can not explain.( yes, even us skeptics have those ) I am not saying paranormal, just that I can not give a for sure explanation.

And keep in mind, people will give explanations, and ask questions to any evidence.

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Hudds

Hudds, I will also contribute a couple of things I still can not explain.( yes, even us skeptics have those ) I am not saying paranormal, just that I can not give a for sure explanation.

And keep in mind, people will give explanations, and ask questions to any evidence.

That's good, I am also looking forward to that Sakari. I can imagine it being a epic thread! lol

Yes, I do keep in mind about explanations and questions asked.

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freetoroam

I am more then glad to share evidence with those who are genuinely interested, but am not willing to share the evidence with those who are obviously here to dispute (Which is clear as day) no matter what evidence you give them, and to me it's a waste of time.

At the end of the day, we all have a choice to either speak to or share information with whom we want or not.

Not this old chestnut again!

I am genuinely interested, the problem we have had though Hudds, is the "evidence" is extremely disputable.

I would love to see evidence where I can say " well, that's good and really does look genuine", but it has not happened.

Yes I am a sceptic, but put that to one side.....I also am not prepared to say "that's the real thing" without looking at all possibilities first.

I have seen it when people are adamant its real, will not listen to others explanations, only later for the actually person who made the claim in the 1st place to admit it was a hoax. admitting it was a hoax because the debunkers have sussed them out.

Anyway, for now I will give you the benefit of the doubt, will put away my scepticism and would like to see this evidence. ....on one condition, you let me research this evidence before I can shout out ;

excited.gif

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freetoroam

All evidence submitted via forum is extremely disputable.

It's a forum...

What exactly do you expect when you come on a forum?

But apparently some of it is real and not disputable, unfortunately I am not part of the circle who is privy to this "evidence", but I am trying to get I there.........................I`ll let you know how I get on. (sorry Norb, just had to borrow that for a bit)

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freetoroam

Seeing it, yes.

It's the "submitting it over a forum" part that makes it extremely disputable.

If you're seriously looking for evidence, you're not going to find it on a forum.

If someone has a video they insist is the real thing, then what changes it when they put it on a forum ? apart from the fact that it can be debunked, explained or simple proven to be a hoax?

I am still waiting for the video or photo or what ever where it can not be debunked, explained or proven to be a hoax.

Hudds says he has it. if it is the real thing, then it will not be able to be debunked etc etc etc .

Edited by freetoroam
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J. K.

MarvelousChester, you should have included the word "potential" in your list. Not every experience that has been recounted here has been a lie. I won't try to determine a numerical value, but a certain percentage of these testimonies are true. Anything that I've ever posted has been a true experience, and since you did not personally witness my experiences, you can't claim them as being absolutely false.

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J. K.

Okay, I can agree with that phrasing. One can believe or disbelieve a statement by one's own choice.

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Forever Cursed

The term Demon has been twisted from it's original meaning and incorporated into the Christian religion to define anything feared, misunderstood, or paranormal. The Greek terms do not have any connotations of evil or malevolence. In fact, ε?δαιμον?α eudaimonia, (literally good-spiritedness) means happiness. By the early Roman Empire, cult statues were seen, by pagans and their Christian neighbors alike, as inhabited by the numinous presence of the gods: "Like pagans, Christians still sensed and saw the gods and their power, and as something, they had to assume, lay behind it, by an easy traditional shift of opinion they turned these pagan daimones into malevolent 'demons', the troupe of Satan..... Far into the Byzantine period Christians eyed their cities' old pagan statuary as a seat of the demons' presence. It was no longer beautiful, it was infested." The term had first acquired its negative connotations in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, which drew on the mythology of ancient Semitic religions. This was then inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament. The Western medieval and neo-medieval conception of a demon derives seamlessly from the ambient popular culture of Late (Roman) Antiquity. The Hellenistic "daemon" eventually came to include many Semitic and Near Eastern gods as evaluated by Christianity. Besides the deals were made with the Devil, and not his lesser counter parts....

Edited by Forever Cursed
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Sakari

Due to the nature of a forum, there are only three types of evidence that can be posted to an internet forum.

1. Testimonies (lies)

2. Video or audio recordings (staged)

3. Photographs (photoshop)

Because there's no way to be absolutely certain that testimonies are not just lies or that recordings (photographic or video) were not just really clever hoaxes, there's simply no way to provide convincing evidence over an internet forum. Evidence provided over a forum will always be in dispute for the reader because there's always the possibility that the evidence was faked, even after it's been heavily analyzed.

And I've just debunked every piece of evidence that has ever been submitted to this forum and that ever will be. You're welcome.

I have seen evidence put forth, even videos, where it was discussed, and the answers found. And, they were not lies, or photo shopped.

There have been, and are, people that come here looking for answers, and quite a few times, they actually get them.

" skeptics " are not just people running around saying " nuh uh ". I have seen plenty of help, and I also have seen plenty of " Not sure what that is ".

There have also been scams found and stopped, due to " skeptics ".

For the most part, here at UM, evidence will be looked through with a fine tooth comb, and from experts in different areas. Honest, factual, answers will be given. How they are taken is up to the person that gave the evidence, and their intent on sharing it.

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Sakari

I didn't say all of them were lies. I said all of them could be lies, therefore none will ever be indisputable. There is good evidence; there's just not indisputable evidence.

I never said that either. I merely said, if you're looking for indisputable evidence, you're not going to find it on a forum.

I know you did not. That came out from your reply, in replies to you. Was making a general reply towards the original.

And, you just kind of did say it......Fact is, indisputable evidence, even with videos, has been found here plenty of times. With evidence to back it up.

I don't want people thinking just because it is posted on a forum, it can not be true, or proven. It can, and has.

Anyway, off topic.

Edited by Sakari

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Forever Cursed

Pretty much, but I'd still argue that some "daemons" are actually evil. I see no reason to not distinguish between "daemon" and "demon," with the latter being exclusively jerks.

The facts that darkness runs rampant across the world and is evident every time a TV, or computer is turned on.....but which religions Djins, or Demon's, Dibbuk's do we blame ? The fact that negativity exists in the world is evident, but it's "MAN" that creates these atrocities, and perhaps these "DEMONS" are simply the manifestation man has created in order to avoid taking personal responsibility for his acts and actions.....how much easier is to say, "The Devil made me do it." than to say, "I think I an sick and need help."

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Sakari

The facts that darkness runs rampant across the world and is evident every time a TV, or computer is turned on.....but which religions Djins, or Demon's, Dibbuk's do we blame ? The fact that negativity exists in the world is evident, but it's "MAN" that creates these atrocities, and perhaps these "DEMONS" are simply the manifestation man has created in order to avoid taking personal responsibility for his acts and actions.....how much easier is to say, "The Devil made me do it." than to say, "I think I an sick and need help."

Bingo :)

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freetoroam

Of course, but the mere potential is enough for people to consider it debunked. The skeptics only ever argue what could have been an alternative explanation. If it could be a lie, that's enough to cast doubt and no one really bothers with proving whether or not it actually was a lie.

And since all of them could be lies, none of them are going to be accepted as proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Ah but this is where you are wrong, the sceptics often provide the explanation.

And what is wrong with offering an alternative explanation when the original is unconvincing in its original claim?

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ChrLzs

Due to the nature of a forum, there are only three types of evidence that can be posted to an internet forum.

1. Testimonies (lies)

2. Video or audio recordings (staged)

3. Photographs (photoshop)

Because there's no way to be absolutely certain that testimonies are not just lies or that recordings (photographic or video) were not just really clever hoaxes, there's simply no way to provide convincing evidence over an internet forum.

Sorry, not buying that. Allow me to elaborate.

The ENTIRE body of science (and law to a slightly lesser extent) works on some quite simple premises - and they are *completely* applicable to a forum or the Interwebz. For any given claim, there are indeed a number of types of evidence, AND each of them have different ways in which they can be verified (or, if you prefer, have their likelihood of being true increased dramatically)... Let's look at that list again and add in a bit of info on how things might become more credible or even verified beyond reasonable doubt...:

1. Testimonies

Some testimonies are true. Some are lies (ie deliberate falsehoods). Some are misreported or misremembered or exaggerated (ie not deliberate falsehoods). And some are a mixture. Human perception and memory is a very flawed and very complex process, so in order to 'verify' testimony, we seek things like:

- corroboration (do other people tell the same story without prompting/from different vantage points)

- credibility (is the claimant a known/credible/trained observer or have a history of trolling/hoaxing)

- conditions (were the conditions good enough for a decent sighting and to have allowed the 'thing' to be identified as claimed)

- other evidence? (see next two items)

2. Video or audio recordings

Given the nature of affordable technology, then yes, video and audio recordings can be faked, but such activity is generally easy to detect. Faking them well takes a LOT of expertise. But the most important thing with any video/audio 'evidence' is whether it makes sense (eg did they keep filming until it goes away?), whether it fits the claim being made, and whether the entire backstory matches the video content. And again we can try to get corroboration (if it's over a city, why aren't there more videos? if it was 'set up', then why didn't the claimant invite other people to record it from different angles..) and so on..

3. Photographs

Refer to item 2.

Now if I make a claim that I have Kookaburras in my back yard, I can supply reams of that evidence and corroboration, eg:

med_gallery_95887_13_3525.jpg

OK, you can now rightly claim that paranormal things are rarer and therefore it is more difficult to provide all the evidence I can supply for my mythical kookaburras.. But does that mean we relax the rules and allow any old sh excrement to be 'good enough'? No, of course it doesn't. The whole reason science demands more than testimony, and asks for all this verification stuff, is that we know dam well how easy it is to fool yourself and others, be it deliberately or otherwise.

So, sorry - you claim you have evidence? - then you need to roll it on out and if it isn't properly supported, you need to toughen up and accept that it just doesn't pass muster. Is there some shame in that? Well, there shouldn't be, unless you have built a whole fantasy around your 'evidence' without actually thinking it through. I see it here often, paranormal claimants get very upset when the audience here is not impressed enough with their story.. They have convinced themselves that they have had a very special experience, or have a special power, and then get angry when others are not so easily convinced.

Frankly, this avoidance of scrutiny is a copout, and you guys/gals know it.

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freetoroam

Sorry, not buying that. Allow me to elaborate.

The ENTIRE body of science (and law to a slightly lesser extent) works on some quite simple premises - and they are *completely* applicable to a forum or the Interwebz. For any given claim, there are indeed a number of types of evidence, AND each of them have different ways in which they can be verified (or, if you prefer, have their likelihood of being true increased dramatically)... Let's look at that list again and add in a bit of info on how things might become more credible or even verified beyond reasonable doubt...:

1. Testimonies

Some testimonies are true. Some are lies (ie deliberate falsehoods). Some are misreported or misremembered or exaggerated (ie not deliberate falsehoods). And some are a mixture. Human perception and memory is a very flawed and very complex process, so in order to 'verify' testimony, we seek things like:

- corroboration (do other people tell the same story without prompting/from different vantage points)

- credibility (is the claimant a known/credible/trained observer or have a history of trolling/hoaxing)

- conditions (were the conditions good enough for a decent sighting and to have allowed the 'thing' to be identified as claimed)

- other evidence? (see next two items)

2. Video or audio recordings

Given the nature of affordable technology, then yes, video and audio recordings can be faked, but such activity is generally easy to detect. Faking them well takes a LOT of expertise. But the most important thing with any video/audio 'evidence' is whether it makes sense (eg did they keep filming until it goes away?), whether it fits the claim being made, and whether the entire backstory matches the video content. And again we can try to get corroboration (if it's over a city, why aren't there more videos? if it was 'set up', then why didn't the claimant invite other people to record it from different angles..) and so on..

3. Photographs

Refer to item 2.

Now if I make a claim that I have Kookaburras in my back yard, I can supply reams of that evidence and corroboration, eg:

med_gallery_95887_13_3525.jpg

OK, you can now rightly claim that paranormal things are rarer and therefore it is more difficult to provide all the evidence I can supply for my mythical kookaburras.. But does that mean we relax the rules and allow any old sh excrement to be 'good enough'? No, of course it doesn't. The whole reason science demands more than testimony, and asks for all this verification stuff, is that we know dam well how easy it is to fool yourself and others, be it deliberately or otherwise.

So, sorry - you claim you have evidence? - then you need to roll it on out and if it isn't properly supported, you need to toughen up and accept that it just doesn't pass muster. Is there some shame in that? Well, there shouldn't be, unless you have built a whole fantasy around your 'evidence' without actually thinking it through. I see it here often, paranormal claimants get very upset when the audience here is not impressed enough with their story.. They have convinced themselves that they have had a very special experience, or have a special power, and then get angry when others are not so easily convinced.

Frankly, this avoidance of scrutiny is a copout, and you guys/gals know it.

^ THIS. :tu:

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VerdeICe

You know, regardless of the arguments, I liked the information and idea's given. It is a lot more than I was expecting. Im actually considering using a spiritboard... But who know what bullshiiter will show up to answer my questions on that faulty thing. Ill post what I get from it when I do I guess, dont expect any rituals from me though, they are assbackward.

And dude, I would love to see some post something someday of their testimony's and captured experience with demons. Maybe that stuff will give me a better idea of their nature and culture. Probably. Maybe.

I have no idea why I want to know these things, I hated history class.

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freetoroam

I never said people shouldn't post evidence or that evidence shouldn't be scrutinized.

AGAIN! I only ever said that there will never be indisputable evidence posted on an internet forum.

If you want to debate the whys and wherefores, this should be moved to a different thread.

Why move it? whats wrong with replying to the actual thread asking the questions or making the claims?

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Hudds

I'm looking forward to Hudds' upcoming demon thread (*hint* *wink*). I have a few experiences of my own, but I'd like to hear others' too.

I started the new thread, it's in the Ghosts, Hauntings & The Paranormal section called "Spirits"

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