Michelle Posted September 11, 2015 #876 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) not sure if it they go to floor but i agree that they should? (I wonder why they dont in public restrooms already? Flooding or some other reason?) The gender neutral bathrooms you are asking about only have stalls and no urinals. But yeah i wonder why stalls have that gap in the first place? Easier to clean. They all have drains in the floors and they can pressure wash or mop the whole thing and then use a squeegee, directing the water into the drain to dry it. Edited September 11, 2015 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 11, 2015 #877 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Easier to clean. They all have drains in the floors and they can pressure wash or mop the whole thing and then use a squeegee, directing the water into the drain to dry it. that makes sense. Less chance for mold. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 11, 2015 #878 Share Posted September 11, 2015 This is a fascinating account in the comments section of a reasonably well balanced article from a father who had to see his daughter transition: I am the father of the wonderful, amazing human being whom WBUR member Ratna described (see comments to Part II). To say the entire process wasn’t gut wrenching would be a lie. It was. But consider this: I remember asking my son, “Can you tell me: Who is a boy? Who is a girl? Even 20 years ago, doors were unfairly closed to women. Today, other than being a father, a woman can do anything a man can – and a man can’t be a mother. So why do you need to do this?” He replied, “Suppose you woke up one morning and found you had a woman’s body. How would you feel?” I was taken aback. “That’s a really good question,” I said. “Let me think about it and get back to you.” And a few days later, we talked. At another point, he accused me, “You are ultra-liberal when you are defending the rights of the LGBT community or women or other minorities. Do those opinions apply to me?” (He is more conservative than I am.) Again, he made me think about myself in a way few others had been able to. My son attends a college where only the ultra-bright can even imagine getting in – I wouldn’t have and I am a professor at a top business school. I am writing this fact here because members of this community often face bigoted, negative stereotypes about their place in society. When he attended a pre-orientation meeting, he didn’t wear his name tag, because it had his original name. When one of the administrators asked why, his mother replied privately. “Did we know this earlier?” he asked. “No,” she answered with some trepidation. “Don’t get me wrong,” the administrator said, “I asked because I wanted to be sure that we did not make a mistake and put your son in a terrible spot. We have several other transgender students on campus. He won’t be alone and we will look after him until he can look after himself.” Within minutes all relevant records were changed to match is his real persona. And everyone started calling him by his real name – not the one we had given him at birth. I chuckled at the part of the story about bathrooms. Here’s a thought to ponder: my son’s university has only gender-neutral bathrooms (not just toilets) in the dorms. No young woman or man has complained about this. I may be wrong, but I recall reading that my alma mater Harvard became one of the first of the elite universities in the US to adopt gender-neutral bathrooms in its dorms several years ago. Does that tell you something about the makeup of the population in elite educational institutions? I am not saying that the proportion of transgender people is rising; I am saying that the Internet has allowed them to realize they are not alone and as such, they are, for the first time in history, exercising their rights and demanding our respect and attention. To Nate and his family: Hang in there, your world will be better because of the courageous decision Nate has taken. We heaved a sigh of relief at the hospital where he had his first surgery. In the recovery room, in intense pain, he was grinning from ear to ear. Mort Sinclair (comments, Part II) is right. The younger generation worldwide is so much more open and accepting of differences, than our generation is or our prior generations were. That gives me hope for humanity. Thank you Martha Bebinger; thank you WBUR. I recently moved overseas for work. Yes, I will continue to be a “supporting listener.” http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/transgender-teenagers-medical-transition Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted September 11, 2015 #879 Share Posted September 11, 2015 In other words it's just a pick and choose label at this point? If there is no way to determine how would they know? Unless they decide from femininity, which is then a social construct. I'm very feminine, but I don't call myself a woman. What about a hermaphrodite? Does a hermaphrodite have to chose? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 11, 2015 #880 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Where you get the notion that they treat pre-pubescent with hormone to make them conform to their physical sex is beyond me - since this is not a recognised treatment. What is stated is that many pre-pubescents spontaneously revert to identifying with their physical sex without treatment at or about puberty. It is not in any way supporting the notion that adult transgenders could be "cured" by administering hormones such as testosterone for male transgenders. This statement needs correcting since the evidence actually points to the fact that most young pre-pubescent transgender children do not revert their gender to match their physical sex, the reality is that most become gay. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 12, 2015 #881 Share Posted September 12, 2015 This is a fascinating account in the comments section of a reasonably well balanced article from a father who had to see his daughter transition: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/transgender-teenagers-medical-transition Br Cornelius very nice article. Its good to see future generations being accepted and taken care of, and not shamed or being called sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted September 12, 2015 #882 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) This conversation reminded me of something I heard years ago of Ivy League schools taking nude pictures of every freshman enrolled. I know there is more information out there, but it's off topic and I'll just reference wiki to assure people I'm not out of my mind. https://en.wikipedia..._posture_photos Can you imagine? Edited September 12, 2015 by Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted September 12, 2015 #883 Share Posted September 12, 2015 What about a hermaphrodite? Does a hermaphrodite have to chose? they had their parents choose for them when they were born with functional anatomy for both genders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waziya Sioux Posted September 12, 2015 #884 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) This is a hard one to rightfully answer.... This person wants to be a female , they feel inside their soul they are female most likely . But I think she should have her/his own room to dress or shower , I do think the other girls feel uncomfortable with someone that still has male parts . Not all girls have seen what the opposite sex looks like nude. I have a female cousin that still is a virgin , She has never seen a man's body . She's going on 25 years old still saving herself for her husband to be. She would feel very uncomfortable with a trans gender person in a locker room. I feel bad for this person , I've went to school with a trans gender and he felt out of place with males and females , he seriously felt he was a woman trapped in a mans body . I felt bad for him . The great thing is if they work towards putting away money they can have a sex change , until then I feel they need to find a way of having a room just for them to change clothes or shower . Just because they are Trans gender doesn't make them perverts . The girls should still have their right to privacy . Edited September 12, 2015 by Waziya Sioux 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vDominai Posted September 12, 2015 #885 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) So, didn't you just then "pick and choose" a label for yourself? Back on this subject, came across this and I really hope this is some kind of satire: https://archive.is/Obsv9 ("How Can I Convince My 3-Year Old They're Transgender - Ask Jane") It reads like the ramblings of paranoid extremists, but the real deal is stranger than satire nowadays. Edited September 12, 2015 by SenorDomino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinrenee Posted September 12, 2015 #886 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Back on this subject, came across this and I really hope this is some kind of satire: https://archive.is/Obsv9 ("How Can I Convince My 3-Year Old They're Transgender - Ask Jane") It reads like the ramblings of paranoid extremists, but the real deal is stranger than satire nowadays. God help that poor child. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 12, 2015 #887 Share Posted September 12, 2015 God help that poor child. but isnt this Gods plan for the child? Or perhaps they are posessed by demons? But how exactly would/could god help them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinrenee Posted September 12, 2015 #888 Share Posted September 12, 2015 but isnt this Gods plan for the child? Nonsense Or perhaps they are posessed by demons? Nonsense But how exactly would/could god help them? By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 12, 2015 #889 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Nonsense Nonsense By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy. if god knows our destiny and created a plan for us then he intended for people to be transgender. Otherwise things are not going according to his plan (wich puts his authority in question) and means god doesnt have control of our destinys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 12, 2015 #890 Share Posted September 12, 2015 if god knows our destiny and created a plan for us then he intended for people to be transgender. Otherwise things are not going according to his plan (wich puts his authority in question) and means god doesnt have control of our destinys. you forget the "get out of Jail" card that is freewill :clap: Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 12, 2015 #891 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) you forget the "get out of Jail" card that is freewill :clap: Br Cornelius To me that doesnt make sense either. If God knows you will go to hellbefore you are born then there is no freewill. Just gods plan playing out. Edited September 12, 2015 by BlackBearWolf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 12, 2015 #892 Share Posted September 12, 2015 To me that doesnt make sense either. If God knows you will go to hell before you are born then there is no freewill. Just gods plan playing out. I think they spent a few centuries thinking up a fudge for that as well. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickian Posted September 12, 2015 #893 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Many psychologists might argue that transgenderism is not a "psychological condition" at all, but a biological one. There is nothing "psychologically abnormal" about a transgender person - they are generally psychologically normal males or females. What is "abnormal" is the sex that is physically expressed through their biology does not represent their gender. The body is not the person. The body represents everything that we are since we are entirely contained within it. The brain is just a part of our body and there is so much we don't know about it and how much our DNA influences our personality/traits that neither you or I can prove either of ourselves right about the cause of transgenderism. If you upload the wrong software into a machine designed to drill, which is wrong: the programming or the hardware? The answer to that problem is just as subjective as the glass half full/empty philosophy. I personally feel that a personality deeply conflicting with the body(personality thinking the body should be what it wasn't born as when the body is otherwise perfectly normal) means the mind is the problem. Your DNA and body don't lie and aren't subject to interpretation like the mind though, male is male and female is female(barring genetic abnormalities such as hermaphrodites). If souls do exist to influence our minds, I don't believe that they have a gender. So to me, that point is moot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 12, 2015 #894 Share Posted September 12, 2015 it isn't really a matter of if the brain or body is wrong, sensible medical practitioners have moved way beyond that. What matters is what brings the best outcomes for the person. The need to be right about the causes is to me deeply flawed since it is the effects which matter to the individual. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vDominai Posted September 12, 2015 #895 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) but isnt this Gods plan for the child? Or perhaps they are posessed by demons? But how exactly would/could god help them? If this site is real and not satire, wouldn't it be the parents and this person encouraging them to force their non-transgender child to be transgender who would be possessed by demons? I don't get the point of your post here. A random attack on religion? In case you didn't read the article the post you mocked was a reply to, the child is not transgender, but the parents want it to be and are encouraged to force it. I want to believe it's satire, but in today's climate I honestly can't tell. Judging from the angry comments on the site I'm not the only one either. Edited September 12, 2015 by SenorDomino 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickian Posted September 12, 2015 #896 Share Posted September 12, 2015 it isn't really a matter of if the brain or body is wrong, sensible medical practitioners have moved way beyond that. What matters is what brings the best outcomes for the person. The need to be right about the causes is to me deeply flawed since it is the effects which matter to the individual. Br Cornelius So long as a single girl/boy doesn't want someone who is physically a boy/girl changing with them or in their bathroom, then the "best outcome" and improved quality of life for that transgender comes at the expense of the quality of life of others. What's emotionally best for some is emotionally damaging to others. For what reason are transgender feelings worth more than the feelings of others. If no one cared enough to protest it or tell the school "this makes me very uncomfortable and shouldn't be happening", then this thread wouldn't exist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted September 12, 2015 #897 Share Posted September 12, 2015 they had their parents choose for them when they were born with functional anatomy for both genders. Yeah, I heard that in most cases. But I wonder what happen to the feelings of the individual later? How did the young one felt inside, about themselves? And while others may make their thoughts known about cosmetic surgery for teens, I wonder what the parents of hermaphrodites felt about that? When it was available? Did they rush to it? Were their any parents who accepted these children for who they are? Nonsense Nonsense By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy. I think BlackBearWolf made a very good point. Let's think about one thing. The argument was that homosexuality was chosen. Why would they chose to be harassed, harmed, shamed, and end up killing themselves, if they chose it? So, hence, it's not something to chose. So, it would something naturally. I have a friend who refused to believe that God made people like this. In a sense, I can understand the confusion within them, (I'm not going to go on to my point of view this) but I wonder what else is there? ( I am reminded of various editorials in the paper of a newspaper of one place I lived, where a lot of Christians wrote about thinking God made some people homosexual to help with the population and such. I remember thinking how different and thoughtful they were) Well, but here we have our conundrum, don't we? The body represents everything that we are since we are entirely contained within it. The brain is just a part of our body and there is so much we don't know about it and how much our DNA influences our personality/traits that neither you or I can prove either of ourselves right about the cause of transgenderism. If you upload the wrong software into a machine designed to drill, which is wrong: the programming or the hardware? The answer to that problem is just as subjective as the glass half full/empty philosophy. I personally feel that a personality deeply conflicting with the body(personality thinking the body should be what it wasn't born as when the body is otherwise perfectly normal) means the mind is the problem. Your DNA and body don't lie and aren't subject to interpretation like the mind though, male is male and female is female(barring genetic abnormalities such as hermaphrodites). If souls do exist to influence our minds, I don't believe that they have a gender. So to me, that point is moot. Well, that last line here is thought provoking, so I'll give you that. but, is what you are saying is that the mind needs to be conditioned to accept what it's born into? ( and I think bringing up hermaphrodites is a good example of why choosing could be dangerous) Are we really helping a person by convincing them through phychological means? In some way, if we are talking about free will here, or free choice, isn't that being taken away, and in the end, taking away the true essence of an original person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted September 12, 2015 #898 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) So long as a single girl/boy doesn't want someone who is physically a boy/girl changing with them or in their bathroom, then the "best outcome" and improved quality of life for that transgender comes at the expense of the quality of life of others. What's emotionally best for some is emotionally damaging to others. For what reason are transgender feelings worth more than the feelings of others. If no one cared enough to protest it or tell the school "this makes me very uncomfortable and shouldn't be happening", then this thread wouldn't exist. I have not argued for any of those things. I have explicitly stated that I feel the best compromise is a single unit changing room/bathroom for the transgender person. I do not feel that their rights trumps everyone else's. However the application of treatment is what I was discussing in the post that you replied to so your response is inappropriate to my comments. Br Cornelius Edited September 12, 2015 by Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickian Posted September 12, 2015 #899 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Well, that last line here is thought provoking, so I'll give you that. but, is what you are saying is that the mind needs to be conditioned to accept what it's born into? ( and I think bringing up hermaphrodites is a good example of why choosing could be dangerous) Are we really helping a person by convincing them through phychological means? In some way, if we are talking about free will here, or free choice, isn't that being taken away, and in the end, taking away the true essence of an original person? It's not that I think minds needs to be conditioned to fit their bodies so much as I believe minds that actively reject the natural state of their bodies are malfunctioning in some minor-to-major way. What's culturally acceptable plays a huge role in what is and isn't considered a "normal" deviation from the natural state(piercings, tattoos, clothing, hair dye, breast implants, etc), and, unless our culture changes to allow non-transgender boys into the girls restroom/locker rooms as a normal thing, I don't see universal acceptance of transgenders using the rooms they want ever happening. There will be those that don't care, those that support them and those that protest and reject them. I have not argued for any of those things. I have explicitly stated that I feel the best compromise is a single unit changing room/bathroom for the transgender person. I do not feel that their rights trumps everyone else's. However the application of treatment is what I was discussing in the post that you replied to so your response is inappropriate to my comments. Br Cornelius I may have gone off on a tangent from my original intent once I got typing and my post lost it's relevance to yours, sorry if I did. The only thing I can say to this comment is I support the inclusion of unisex bathrooms/changing rooms as well. They really are the best solution since there isn't a single argument that can be made against them besides budget problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBearWolf Posted September 12, 2015 #900 Share Posted September 12, 2015 If this site is real and not satire, wouldn't it be the parents and this person encouraging them to force their non-transgender child to be transgender who would be possessed by demons? I don't get the point of your post here. A random attack on religion? In case you didn't read the article the post you mocked was a reply to, the child is not transgender, but the parents want it to be and are encouraged to force it. I want to believe it's satire, but in today's climate I honestly can't tell. Judging from the angry comments on the site I'm not the only one either. i did not bring up religion in this conversation. I was asking what is gods role in transgenderism. Is it his will? Or is it the influence of demons?It may not apply to this article you bring up but i feel its a legitimate question to the religious inclined. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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