Students protest transgender use of locker rm

[Michelle]

Kids will grow up and learn to respect each other in a new society where we don't point out and mock others differences. We treat everyone with the same respect. We dont fear each other.

They don't treat each other with respect even without bringing this into it. Popular kids mock the unpopular ones. Jocks bully the nerds. The rich ridicule the poor. Skinny kids make fun of the fat. I think you have unrealistic expectations.

[vDominai]

They don't treat each other with respect even without bringing this into it. Popular kids mock the unpopular ones. Jocks bully the nerds. The rich ridicule the poor. Skinny kids make fun of the fat. I think you have unrealistic expectations.

It's a flawed utopian viewpoint that if we just indoctrinate people the right way and make everything inclusive and diverse humanity will become good. Yet already we see "inclusive" people harass and gang up on people they consider the worst scum over the slightest disagreement. The more radical people who are heavily into this stuff tend to be dangerously totalitarian and intolerant of any dissent, ironic considering they're self-declared champions of tolerance.

[Michelle]

It's a flawed utopian viewpoint that if we just indoctrinate people the right way and make everything inclusive and diverse humanity will become good. Yet already we see "inclusive" people harass and gang up on people they consider the worst scum over the slightest disagreement. The more radical people who are heavily into this stuff tend to be dangerously totalitarian and intolerant of any dissent, ironic considering they're self-declared champions of tolerance.

Yup, the people who don't agree with this will be labeled backward conservatives, religious fanatics and bigots...no doubt about it.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

Yup, the people who don't agree with this will be labeled backward conservatives, religious fanatics and bigots...no doubt about it.

I think the example of most of the contributors to this thread would say otherwise. Caricaturing the opposition seems to be part of the standard rhetorical tool kit for both liberals and conservatives.

I suppose we can say we have learned something about human nature and tribalism though.

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

As has been explained to you at least twice, sex is defined by DNA etc, gender is a social-cultural construct.

And while the rest of the world seems to be "evolving" on this issue, children may not quite be ready for it. If this person cannot dress in the area of choice then either a special accommodation should be made or he should be excused from PE completely. The point is that the school has no right to cause such a disturbance to dozens of children for the sake of one non conformist. I feel for the boy but adolescence is difficult enough without hanging a political burden on these kids as well. And it really does get down to politics. Forcing people (any age) to accept something they fear or are disgusted by is impossible. He is far more likely to be accepted if does not attempt to force others to his will on this.

[Wickian]

They don't treat each other with respect even without bringing this into it. Popular kids mock the unpopular ones. Jocks bully the nerds. The rich ridicule the poor. Skinny kids make fun of the fat. I think you have unrealistic expectations.

I agree with this statement, but I had a fairly mellow high school life that had very little bullying(that I noticed) and fights were relatively uncommon. I found this surprising since it was a school that had a mix of privileged, gated community kids mixed with the poor(I was part of the poor) kids and suburban kids of all races.

What do I think was the main cause of the lack of tension/conflict/bullying in the school? It was a huge campus, there was room for every clique to hang out in their own spot with plenty of room to spare. Even the loners had plenty of spots where they could just hang out during lunch without being disturbed or watched.

[Michelle]

I think the example of most of the contributors to this thread would say otherwise. Caricaturing the opposition seems to be part of the standard rhetorical tool kit for both liberals and conservatives.

I suppose we can say we have learned something about human nature and tribalism though.

Br Cornelius

I'm often appalled and infuriated when people attempt to cram others into a tidy, little box when trying to have a discussion. I find the strereotyping and ad hominens from some people disappointing, especially considering they are adults who are supposed to be above that sort of thing.

[Michelle]

I agree with this statement, but I had a fairly mellow high school life that had very little bullying(that I noticed) and fights were relatively uncommon. I found this surprising since it was a school that had a mix of privileged, gated community kids mixed with the poor(I was part of the poor) kids and suburban kids of all races.

What do I think was the main cause of the lack of tension/conflict/bullying in the school? It was a huge campus, there was room for every clique to hang out in their own spot with plenty of room to spare. Even the loners had plenty of spots where they could just hang out during lunch without being disturbed or watched.

This was pretty much my experience. Apparently it was a very progressive school, in a little town in Bible Belt, Georgia back in the 70's.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

I'm often appalled and infuriated when people attempt to cram others into a tidy, little box when trying to have a discussion. I find the strereotyping and ad hominens from some people disappointing, especially considering they are adults who are supposed to be above that sort of thing.

My position is not to say that people are not often bigots and closed to facts and compromise - since very often that is exactly what they are.

Br Cornelius

[Michelle]

My position is not to say that people are not often bigots and closed to facts and compromise - since very often that is exactly what they are.

Br Cornelius

That is often how you perceive people with a different opinion.

[Guest Br Cornelius]

That is often how you perceive people with a different opinion.

Any dispute I have with people is based upon their apprehension of objective facts. I rarely disagree with someone for their own personal opinion - but I will vehemently disagree with them if their opinion is based on a demonstrably false interpretation of the evidence.

Br Cornelius

[+Liquid Gardens]

And while the rest of the world seems to be "evolving" on this issue, children may not quite be ready for it. If this person cannot dress in the area of choice then either a special accommodation should be made or he should be excused from PE completely. The point is that the school has no right to cause such a disturbance to dozens of children for the sake of one non conformist. I feel for the boy but adolescence is difficult enough without hanging a political burden on these kids as well. And it really does get down to politics. Forcing people (any age) to accept something they fear or are disgusted by is impossible. He is far more likely to be accepted if does not attempt to force others to his will on this.

Most of this largely mirrors what people said decades ago about racial integration, which was a far greater disturbance than this is and required a lot more 'forcing' of people's wills.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

So what opinions do we have here? Should someone with male genitals have the right to use the women's locker room or restroom because they identify as female? Do the females with female genitalia have the right to protest?

From the article:

Nearly 200 students walked out of a Missouri high school on Monday because Lila Perry was changing in the girl’s locker room.

While Caitlyn Jenner and other transgender celebrities have been greeted with almost universal acceptance, the road has been far rockier for transgender individuals such as Perry, the 17-year-old senior who is navigating new terrain at Hillsboro High School.

“It wasn’t too long ago white people were saying, ‘I don’t feel comfortable sharing a bathroom with a black person,’ and history repeats itself,” Perry told Fox2.

The nearly two-hour protest featured both those opposed to Perry using ladies’ facilities and those who supported her right to do so.

“I’m not going to hurt their daughters,” said Perry, addressing concerned parents. “I’m not going to expose myself. I’m not a pervert. I’m a transgender woman. I’m a girl. I’m just in there to change, do my business, and that if they have any questions about being transgender, they are more than welcome to talk to me, and I’ll be happy to explain it.”

Perry was stuck in the principal’s office – the school says for her safety – while her classmates debated her rights – and theirs.

Part of the issue is that while Perry identifies as transgender, she still has male genitalia. Perry wears a wig and female clothing, but hasn’t undergone any medical operations to transform her body.

“I find it offensive because Lila has not went through any procedure to become female,” student Sophie Beel told Fox2. “Putting on a dress and putting on a wig is not transgender to me.”

Link

You know, if we adopted the European unisex rest room situation, (with stalls ) we wouldn't have this problem.

Of course, I had to go back to the OP to remember that this is dealing with a locker room, and not rest rooms. And my point isn't a easily rectified situation for this particular case. And yes, this is tricky.

But one that should have a lot of thought with.

Here's the thing, with the mentioning of waiting until the transgender has completed the change, they should still stay in the locker room of their gender, and someone mentioning not wanting to be in the same locker room with a homosexual of their gender, what does that mean then? What about hermaphrodites? Where should they go?

I would like to point out that not all girls wear bikinis while swimming. In fact, most do not. There are all sorts of bathing suits besides bikinis that cover up much of your body. However, when it comes to bras and underwear, there isn't as much flexibility because they come down to function instead of style.

Edit: My point being, it's unfair to compare what clothing you wear while undressing in the locker room to what sort of apparel you wear to swim.

I see Leonardo's point. But on your thought, it reminds me of my high school days. I pretty much went to the rest room part of the locker room to actually change, I was that self conscious. But not everyone in the locker room does that, can do that, and such.

i don't have any problem with unisex bathrooms and changing rooms.

Been to one in Italy. Boy was I in a surprise, when after I came out of my stall to use the sink, a bearded guy came out next to mine, and used the sink next to me. I looked at him while washing my hands, and he turned to me and said, " Hi". Changed my view of things from then on.

Edit to realize, that this is not originally just seven pages. It's up to 54!!!! I'll go back to read the rest.

Eeeep!

Edited September 10, 2015 by Stubbly_Dooright

[Michelle]

Most of this largely mirrors what people said decades ago about racial integration, which was a far greater disturbance than this is and required a lot more 'forcing' of people's wills.

This has nothing to do with race or how anyone feels about transgenders. It's about young gilrs who are already self-conscious and embarrassed to change clothes or shower in front of other girls. This only makes them more uncomfortable.

Yes, some schools still make students shower after gym class.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Michelle

[Michelle]

Here's the thing, with the mentioning of waiting until the transgender has completed the change, they should still stay in the locker room of their gender, and someone mentioning not wanting to be in the same locker room with a homosexual of their gender, what does that mean then? What about hermaphrodites? Where should they go?

I see Leonardo's point. But on your thought, it reminds me of my high school days. I pretty much went to the rest room part of the locker room to actually change, I was that self conscious.

Accomodations had been made for this particular person and he/she wasn't satisfied with them.

[+Liquid Gardens]

This has nothing to do with race or how anyone feels about transgenders.

The post I replied to was about how people feel about transgenders, it uses the words, 'disturbance', 'fear', and 'disgusted', and how no one 'should be forced'.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Accomodations had been made for this particular person and he/she wasn't satisfied with them.

Yeaaaaah, like I said, I made the mistake of not realizing of how long this thread is. ( and not furthering my research of the case either ) and so.............................

Thanks for updating me, Michelle.

[Michelle]

The post I replied to was about how people feel about transgenders, it uses the words, 'disturbance', 'fear', and 'disgusted', and how no one 'should be forced'.

I think that was an unfortunate choice of words not to be taken literally. This is causing a disturbance in the girls locker room. They are afraid to change clothers in front of someone who claims to be a girl inside, but looks like a boy. I remember when girls had cooties, boys were icky and kids exclaimed a disgusted "eeewwww" when they saw their parents kiss.

I think some people have forgotten what it's like to be a kid.

[vDominai]

The post I replied to was about how people feel about transgenders, it uses the words, 'disturbance', 'fear', and 'disgusted', and how no one 'should be forced'.

Strong words. But it's not so much about how people feel about transgenders as it is about a person who is still 100% male being allowed to be naked around teenage girls. They absolutely should not be forced to put up with that.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I don't know if I have 'stake' in this or not. But I work with such an individual. I consider this person a friend and a great human being. I find it not an issue that what the name I was introduced to when first meeting this person and called them, to when we were encouraged to call them by a new name, I ended up doing just that, and with acceptance. The important thing is, the happiness of this individual. Whether this person still graces the ladies room, is not an issue with me. (Personally, I have an issue with someone in the next stall having a phone conversation. Seriously?! That's gross! And inconsiderate to boot. To me and to your phone party. And I'm not going to be waiting to flush while you have your little argument with who ever. And this is on speaker phone to boot! I'm gonna flush like you never heard it. Let's see how your party at the other end take that?!?)

But as a rest room or locker room or what have you, I really think if we are introduced gently to the realities of the human condition, the better informed we are and more accepting. Maybe it's because I grew up to three brothers. I'm married, I don't think one should have a problem sharing their bathroom with their opposite gendered spouse, right?

You're like a broken record. I don't know how you can be so contrary... in denial?

Gender reassignment does't work! They still commit suicide at ridiculously high rates. How can you not see that? Look for a treatment/remedy that brings suicide rates down to within normal limits.

.

I'm curious. Where are the links to those statistics? I'm sincerely curious.

Michelle, on 10 September 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

They don't treat each other with respect even without bringing this into it. Popular kids mock the unpopular ones. Jocks bully the nerds. The rich ridicule the poor. Skinny kids make fun of the fat. I think you have unrealistic expectations.

It's a flawed utopian viewpoint that if we just indoctrinate people the right way and make everything inclusive and diverse humanity will become good. Yet already we see "inclusive" people harass and gang up on people they consider the worst scum over the slightest disagreement. The more radical people who are heavily into this stuff tend to be dangerously totalitarian and intolerant of any dissent, ironic considering they're self-declared champions of tolerance.

I'm not going to say, this will always happen. Yes, it will. In all cultures and settings. It would be unwise to not foresee it. Here's the thing. What is wrong in still trying to instill the teachings of not doing this. What is wrong in the goal of teaching our children to love everyone and to accept everyone for who they are? We can still try among the realities of the world.

And while the rest of the world seems to be "evolving" on this issue, children may not quite be ready for it. If this person cannot dress in the area of choice then either a special accommodation should be made or he should be excused from PE completely. The point is that the school has no right to cause such a disturbance to dozens of children for the sake of one non conformist. I feel for the boy but adolescence is difficult enough without hanging a political burden on these kids as well. And it really does get down to politics. Forcing people (any age) to accept something they fear or are disgusted by is impossible. He is far more likely to be accepted if does not attempt to force others to his will on this.

In one sense, I can understand your point of how we raise and be sensitive to the growing mind. I just wonder, what has improved now, from a time when the young minds use to be even more sheltered to things. I would think there is an acceptance of what they are exposed to, like in the locker room, then in the past. Wouldn't different races be something akin to that? It's more accepted now, but wasn't there a time that would be considered as something sensitive to them? Edited September 10, 2015 by Stubbly_Dooright

[+OverSword]

All this politically correct nonsense about promoting transgender as "normal" is a great disservice to the unfortunate individuals who have gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria. These people are (in all physical ways) the sex that is on their birth certificate. They need assistance in coming to terms with that fact ... by counseling, anti-depressants, possibly hormone therapy with the hormone that their sex requires ( estrogen for girls or androgen for boys).

The politically correct regime of lupron and surgical genital mutilation is an abomination. Their suicide rate (both pre and post gender reassignment) is a testament that the PC crap is not working for them. I am so sorry for people with gender dysphoria. They have been caught in a political machine, and they are paying for it with their lives.

God help them....

Beautifully stated. My feeling also.

[Michelle]

I'm not going to say, this will always happen. Yes, it will. In all cultures and settings. It would be unwise to not foresee it. Here's the thing. What is wrong in still trying to instill the teachings of not doing this. What is wrong in the goal of teaching our children to love everyone and to accept everyone for who they are? We can still try among the realities of the world.

The majority of people in this discussion have no problem with the lgbtq community. I can totally accept someone without getting naked in front of them. In fact I would respect them more for not putting me in that sort of situation.

[+Liquid Gardens]

I think that was an unfortunate choice of words not to be taken literally. This is causing a disturbance in the girls locker room. They are afraid to change clothers in front of someone who claims to be a girl inside, but looks like a boy.

I don't know why you think it wasn't supposed to be taken literally, it was the whole point of the post I responded to. And your response clearly seems to say that, despite your response to me, this does have something to do with how people feel about transgender people, they are 'afraid' to change clothes in front of them.

I think some people have forgotten what it's like to be a kid.

Or some people have forgotten that we don't always want kids 'to be like kids', they are going to have to confront their fears someday, that's part of growing up. In this case I wonder if confronting their fears would help remove them altogether, when they discover that there's nothing really to be afraid of. Not all cultures are so hung up and puritanical about human bits and sexuality as many Americans are.

[vDominai]

they are 'afraid' to change clothes in front of them.

Because most people don't like to change in front of strangers of the opposite sex

[+Liquid Gardens]

We live in a spiritually bankrupt and morbidly diseased society. God help America.

I think in some ways we've evolved 'spiritually', partly because we've started to ignore what people think their gods have defined as properly 'spiritual'.