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OverSword

Students protest transgender use of locker rm

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Michelle

not sure if it they go to floor but i agree that they should? (I wonder why they dont in public restrooms already? Flooding or some other reason?)

The gender neutral bathrooms you are asking about only have stalls and no urinals. But yeah i wonder why stalls have that gap in the first place?

Easier to clean. They all have drains in the floors and they can pressure wash or mop the whole thing and then use a squeegee, directing the water into the drain to dry it.

Edited by Michelle

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BlackBearWolf

Easier to clean. They all have drains in the floors and they can pressure wash or mop the whole thing and then use a squeegee, directing the water into the drain to dry it.

that makes sense. Less chance for mold.
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Br Cornelius

This is a fascinating account in the comments section of a reasonably well balanced article from a father who had to see his daughter transition:

I am the father of the wonderful, amazing human being whom WBUR member Ratna described (see comments to Part II). To say the entire process wasn’t gut wrenching would be a lie. It was. But consider this:

I remember asking my son, “Can you tell me: Who is a boy? Who is a girl? Even 20 years ago, doors were unfairly closed to women. Today, other than being a father, a woman can do anything a man can – and a man can’t be a mother. So why do you need to do this?” He replied, “Suppose you woke up one morning and found you had a woman’s body. How would you feel?” I was taken aback. “That’s a really good question,” I said. “Let me think about it and get back to you.” And a few days later, we talked. At another point, he accused me, “You are ultra-liberal when you are defending the rights of the LGBT community or women or other minorities. Do those opinions apply to me?” (He is more conservative than I am.) Again, he made me

think about myself in a way few others had been able to.

My son attends a college where only the ultra-bright can even imagine getting in – I wouldn’t have and I am a professor at a top business school. I am writing this fact here because members of this community often face bigoted, negative stereotypes about their place in society. When he attended a pre-orientation meeting, he didn’t wear his name tag, because it had his original name. When one of the administrators asked why, his mother replied privately. “Did we know this earlier?” he asked. “No,” she answered with some trepidation. “Don’t get me wrong,” the administrator said,

“I asked because I wanted to be sure that we did not make a mistake and put

your son in a terrible spot. We have several other transgender students on

campus. He won’t be alone and we will look after him until he can look after

himself.” Within minutes all relevant records were changed to match is his real

persona. And everyone started calling him by his real name – not the one we had

given him at birth.

I chuckled at the part of the story about bathrooms. Here’s a thought to ponder: my son’s university has only gender-neutral bathrooms (not just toilets) in the dorms. No young woman or man has complained about this. I may be wrong, but I recall reading that my alma mater Harvard became one of the first of the elite universities in the US to adopt gender-neutral bathrooms in its dorms several years ago. Does that tell you something about the makeup of the population in elite educational institutions? I am not saying that the proportion of transgender people is rising; I am

saying that the Internet has allowed them to realize they are not alone and as such, they are, for the first time in history, exercising their rights and demanding our respect and attention.

To Nate and his family: Hang in there, your world will be better because of the courageous decision Nate has taken. We heaved a sigh of relief at the hospital where he had his first surgery. In the recovery room, in intense pain, he was grinning from ear to ear. Mort Sinclair (comments, Part II) is right. The younger generation worldwide is so much more open and accepting of differences, than our generation is or our prior generations were. That gives me hope for humanity.

Thank you Martha Bebinger; thank you WBUR. I recently moved overseas for work. Yes, I will continue to be a “supporting listener.”

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/transgender-teenagers-medical-transition

Br Cornelius

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Stubbly_Dooright

In other words it's just a pick and choose label at this point? If there is no way to determine how would they know? Unless they decide from femininity, which is then a social construct. I'm very feminine, but I don't call myself a woman.

What about a hermaphrodite? Does a hermaphrodite have to chose?
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Br Cornelius
Where you get the notion that they treat pre-pubescent with hormone to make them conform to their physical sex is beyond me - since this is not a recognised treatment. What is stated is that many pre-pubescents spontaneously revert to identifying with their physical sex without treatment at or about puberty. It is not in any way supporting the notion that adult transgenders could be "cured" by administering hormones such as testosterone for male transgenders.

This statement needs correcting since the evidence actually points to the fact that most young pre-pubescent transgender children do not revert their gender to match their physical sex, the reality is that most become gay.

Br Cornelius

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BlackBearWolf

This is a fascinating account in the comments section of a reasonably well balanced article from a father who had to see his daughter transition:

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/transgender-teenagers-medical-transition

Br Cornelius

very nice article. Its good to see future generations being accepted and taken care of, and not shamed or being called sinful.

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Michelle

This conversation reminded me of something I heard years ago of Ivy League schools taking nude pictures of every freshman enrolled. I know there is more information out there, but it's off topic and I'll just reference wiki to assure people I'm not out of my mind.

https://en.wikipedia..._posture_photos

Can you imagine?

Edited by Michelle

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Sir Wearer of Hats

What about a hermaphrodite? Does a hermaphrodite have to chose?

they had their parents choose for them when they were born with functional anatomy for both genders.
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Waziya Sioux

This is a hard one to rightfully answer....

This person wants to be a female , they feel inside their soul they are female most likely .

But I think she should have her/his own room to dress or shower , I do think the other girls feel uncomfortable

with someone that still has male parts . Not all girls have seen what the opposite sex looks like nude.

I have a female cousin that still is a virgin , She has never seen a man's body . She's going on 25 years

old still saving herself for her husband to be. She would feel very uncomfortable with a trans gender person

in a locker room. I feel bad for this person , I've went to school with a trans gender and he felt out of place

with males and females , he seriously felt he was a woman trapped in a mans body . I felt bad for him . The great thing

is if they work towards putting away money they can have a sex change , until then I feel they need to find a way of having

a room just for them to change clothes or shower . Just because they are Trans gender doesn't make them perverts .

The girls should still have their right to privacy .

Edited by Waziya Sioux
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vDominai

So, didn't you just then "pick and choose" a label for yourself?

Back on this subject, came across this and I really hope this is some kind of satire: https://archive.is/Obsv9 ("How Can I Convince My 3-Year Old They're Transgender - Ask Jane")

It reads like the ramblings of paranoid extremists, but the real deal is stranger than satire nowadays.

Edited by SenorDomino

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robinrenee

Back on this subject, came across this and I really hope this is some kind of satire: https://archive.is/Obsv9 ("How Can I Convince My 3-Year Old They're Transgender - Ask Jane")

It reads like the ramblings of paranoid extremists, but the real deal is stranger than satire nowadays.

God help that poor child. :no:

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BlackBearWolf

God help that poor child. :no:

but isnt this Gods plan for the child?

Or perhaps they are posessed by demons?

But how exactly would/could god help them?

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robinrenee

but isnt this Gods plan for the child?

Nonsense

Or perhaps they are posessed by demons?

Nonsense

But how exactly would/could god help them?

By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy.

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BlackBearWolf

Nonsense

Nonsense

By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy.

if god knows our destiny and created a plan for us then he intended for people to be transgender.

Otherwise things are not going according to his plan (wich puts his authority in question) and means god doesnt have control of our destinys.

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Br Cornelius

if god knows our destiny and created a plan for us then he intended for people to be transgender.

Otherwise things are not going according to his plan (wich puts his authority in question) and means god doesnt have control of our destinys.

you forget the "get out of Jail" card that is freewill :yes::clap: :clap:

Br Cornelius

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BlackBearWolf

you forget the "get out of Jail" card that is freewill :yes::clap: :clap:

Br Cornelius

To me that doesnt make sense either. If God knows you will go to hell

before you are born then there is no freewill. Just gods plan playing out.

Edited by BlackBearWolf
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Br Cornelius

To me that doesnt make sense either. If God knows you will go to hell

before you are born then there is no freewill. Just gods plan playing out.

I think they spent a few centuries thinking up a fudge for that as well.

Br Cornelius

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Wickian

Many psychologists might argue that transgenderism is not a "psychological condition" at all, but a biological one. There is nothing "psychologically abnormal" about a transgender person - they are generally psychologically normal males or females. What is "abnormal" is the sex that is physically expressed through their biology does not represent their gender.

The body is not the person.

The body represents everything that we are since we are entirely contained within it. The brain is just a part of our body and there is so much we don't know about it and how much our DNA influences our personality/traits that neither you or I can prove either of ourselves right about the cause of transgenderism. If you upload the wrong software into a machine designed to drill, which is wrong: the programming or the hardware? The answer to that problem is just as subjective as the glass half full/empty philosophy.

I personally feel that a personality deeply conflicting with the body(personality thinking the body should be what it wasn't born as when the body is otherwise perfectly normal) means the mind is the problem. Your DNA and body don't lie and aren't subject to interpretation like the mind though, male is male and female is female(barring genetic abnormalities such as hermaphrodites).

If souls do exist to influence our minds, I don't believe that they have a gender. So to me, that point is moot.

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Br Cornelius

it isn't really a matter of if the brain or body is wrong, sensible medical practitioners have moved way beyond that. What matters is what brings the best outcomes for the person.

The need to be right about the causes is to me deeply flawed since it is the effects which matter to the individual.

Br Cornelius

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vDominai

but isnt this Gods plan for the child?

Or perhaps they are posessed by demons?

But how exactly would/could god help them?

If this site is real and not satire, wouldn't it be the parents and this person encouraging them to force their non-transgender child to be transgender who would be possessed by demons? I don't get the point of your post here. A random attack on religion? In case you didn't read the article the post you mocked was a reply to, the child is not transgender, but the parents want it to be and are encouraged to force it. I want to believe it's satire, but in today's climate I honestly can't tell. Judging from the angry comments on the site I'm not the only one either.

Edited by SenorDomino
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Wickian

it isn't really a matter of if the brain or body is wrong, sensible medical practitioners have moved way beyond that. What matters is what brings the best outcomes for the person.

The need to be right about the causes is to me deeply flawed since it is the effects which matter to the individual.

Br Cornelius

So long as a single girl/boy doesn't want someone who is physically a boy/girl changing with them or in their bathroom, then the "best outcome" and improved quality of life for that transgender comes at the expense of the quality of life of others. What's emotionally best for some is emotionally damaging to others. For what reason are transgender feelings worth more than the feelings of others.

If no one cared enough to protest it or tell the school "this makes me very uncomfortable and shouldn't be happening", then this thread wouldn't exist.

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Stubbly_Dooright

they had their parents choose for them when they were born with functional anatomy for both genders.

Yeah, I heard that in most cases. But I wonder what happen to the feelings of the individual later? How did the young one felt inside, about themselves?

And while others may make their thoughts known about cosmetic surgery for teens, I wonder what the parents of hermaphrodites felt about that? When it was available? Did they rush to it? Were their any parents who accepted these children for who they are?

Nonsense

Nonsense

By getting the child's plight published in that article and published on the internet, perhaps the Department of Social Services will investigate and place the child in a loving adoptive home that will be happy to let him be just a little boy.

I think BlackBearWolf made a very good point. Let's think about one thing. The argument was that homosexuality was chosen. Why would they chose to be harassed, harmed, shamed, and end up killing themselves, if they chose it? So, hence, it's not something to chose. So, it would something naturally.

I have a friend who refused to believe that God made people like this. In a sense, I can understand the confusion within them, (I'm not going to go on to my point of view this) but I wonder what else is there? ( I am reminded of various editorials in the paper of a newspaper of one place I lived, where a lot of Christians wrote about thinking God made some people homosexual to help with the population and such. I remember thinking how different and thoughtful they were) Well, but here we have our conundrum, don't we?

The body represents everything that we are since we are entirely contained within it. The brain is just a part of our body and there is so much we don't know about it and how much our DNA influences our personality/traits that neither you or I can prove either of ourselves right about the cause of transgenderism. If you upload the wrong software into a machine designed to drill, which is wrong: the programming or the hardware? The answer to that problem is just as subjective as the glass half full/empty philosophy.

I personally feel that a personality deeply conflicting with the body(personality thinking the body should be what it wasn't born as when the body is otherwise perfectly normal) means the mind is the problem. Your DNA and body don't lie and aren't subject to interpretation like the mind though, male is male and female is female(barring genetic abnormalities such as hermaphrodites).

If souls do exist to influence our minds, I don't believe that they have a gender. So to me, that point is moot.

Well, that last line here is thought provoking, so I'll give you that. but, is what you are saying is that the mind needs to be conditioned to accept what it's born into? ( and I think bringing up hermaphrodites is a good example of why choosing could be dangerous) Are we really helping a person by convincing them through phychological means? In some way, if we are talking about free will here, or free choice, isn't that being taken away, and in the end, taking away the true essence of an original person?

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Br Cornelius

So long as a single girl/boy doesn't want someone who is physically a boy/girl changing with them or in their bathroom, then the "best outcome" and improved quality of life for that transgender comes at the expense of the quality of life of others. What's emotionally best for some is emotionally damaging to others. For what reason are transgender feelings worth more than the feelings of others.

If no one cared enough to protest it or tell the school "this makes me very uncomfortable and shouldn't be happening", then this thread wouldn't exist.

I have not argued for any of those things. I have explicitly stated that I feel the best compromise is a single unit changing room/bathroom for the transgender person. I do not feel that their rights trumps everyone else's.

However the application of treatment is what I was discussing in the post that you replied to so your response is inappropriate to my comments.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Wickian

Well, that last line here is thought provoking, so I'll give you that. but, is what you are saying is that the mind needs to be conditioned to accept what it's born into? ( and I think bringing up hermaphrodites is a good example of why choosing could be dangerous) Are we really helping a person by convincing them through phychological means? In some way, if we are talking about free will here, or free choice, isn't that being taken away, and in the end, taking away the true essence of an original person?

It's not that I think minds needs to be conditioned to fit their bodies so much as I believe minds that actively reject the natural state of their bodies are malfunctioning in some minor-to-major way. What's culturally acceptable plays a huge role in what is and isn't considered a "normal" deviation from the natural state(piercings, tattoos, clothing, hair dye, breast implants, etc), and, unless our culture changes to allow non-transgender boys into the girls restroom/locker rooms as a normal thing, I don't see universal acceptance of transgenders using the rooms they want ever happening.

There will be those that don't care, those that support them and those that protest and reject them.

I have not argued for any of those things. I have explicitly stated that I feel the best compromise is a single unit changing room/bathroom for the transgender person. I do not feel that their rights trumps everyone else's.

However the application of treatment is what I was discussing in the post that you replied to so your response is inappropriate to my comments.

Br Cornelius

I may have gone off on a tangent from my original intent once I got typing and my post lost it's relevance to yours, sorry if I did.

The only thing I can say to this comment is I support the inclusion of unisex bathrooms/changing rooms as well. They really are the best solution since there isn't a single argument that can be made against them besides budget problems.

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BlackBearWolf

If this site is real and not satire, wouldn't it be the parents and this person encouraging them to force their non-transgender child to be transgender who would be possessed by demons? I don't get the point of your post here. A random attack on religion? In case you didn't read the article the post you mocked was a reply to, the child is not transgender, but the parents want it to be and are encouraged to force it. I want to believe it's satire, but in today's climate I honestly can't tell. Judging from the angry comments on the site I'm not the only one either.

i did not bring up religion in this conversation. I was asking what is gods role in transgenderism. Is it his will? Or is it the influence of demons?

It may not apply to this article you bring up but i feel its a legitimate question to the religious inclined.

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