I Stumped a Jehovah Witness

[Hawkins]

So next time a JW comes knocking at the door ask them what they think of the Fossil Record with the different types of Humans found like the Hobbit, and Neanderthal. Ask them why would God create multiple types of Humans? And why are we the only ones left standing...........

God made them for the survival of humans in different environmental extremes. Scientists recently found Neanderthal genes in humans.

Humans on the other hand know how to breed the cows with thicker meat for them to eat. They also know how to breed dogs to dog-fight to win the wagers, etc. Other than these, human intelligence is too low to figure things out by themselves.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Hawkins

[Stubbly_Dooright]

God made them for the humans, Hawkins??

Are you implying that a particlar race was intended to be enslaved?

[Hawkins]

God made them for the humans, Hawkins??

Are you implying that a particlar race was intended to be enslaved?

No, under extreme environments in the past, human population had ever dropped under 10,000. Interbreeding however can make a race stronger. For example, the interbreeding between humans and neanderthals can make humans stronger in surviving the environmental extremes.

The more civilized humans become, the less sustainable they are in the nature. Whenever natural environmental extremes strike, their population may drop dramatically. Interbreeding with other like-species may help their survival under the circumstance. On the other hand, when humans advance to a level that they can deal with natural disasters effectively, such a interbreeding is thus no longer needed.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Hawkins

[willowdreams]

I know I am late on this, I was raised a JW, all my family is JW and my uncles are Elders. JW's have no issue with evolution. This woman seems to just be ignorant of it, many will go to the meetings and act alll christianny and all, yet know little to nothing of the faith they claim to be.

JW's stand on the fence on evolution in the manner of saying 'God has his ways, and there is no reason why he could not have used evolution as a way to create.... '

you may get a few die hards who will say, no no, it is missinterpreted by man.. but most will just say that there is nothing wrong with saying that evolution is gods tool.

I am no longer a JW, being excommunicated, I am agnostic.

So I have gotten to know this girl at work pretty well. She's a older lady but super religious. Doesn't celebrate any Holidays not even her own Birthday.

Now I am Catholic and according to my Parents I am not supposed to believe in Evolution. However I let the Evidence speak for itself.

I was telling her about some of the stuff I have read about certain Genetic anomalies that appear like how some people have Tails, Completely covered in fur, lizard skin, and even three chambered hearts in Humans. And how these are throwbacks to evolution. Her answer to just about all of that was it is "God's Will."

The part I stumped her on was when I brought up the Fossil Record. I asked her what she thought of the Fossil Record with all of the different types of Human Species we have found over the years and if they were all "Hoaxes". Because people do Hoax stuff all the time.

She said hmm I don't know I will have to think about that one.........

So next time a JW comes knocking at the door ask them what they think of the Fossil Record with the different types of Humans found like the Hobbit, and Neanderthal. Ask them why would God create multiple types of Humans? And why are we the only ones left standing...........

[Stubbly_Dooright]

No, under extreme environments in the past, human population had ever dropped under 10,000. Interbreeding however can make a race stronger. For example, the interbreeding between humans and neanderthals can make humans stronger in surviving the environmental extremes.

The more civilized humans become, the less sustainable they are in the nature. Whenever natural environmental extremes strike, their population may drop dramatically. Interbreeding with other like-species may help their survival under the circumstance. On the other hand, when humans advance to a level that they can deal with natural disasters effectively, such a interbreeding is thus no longer needed.

Ok, fair enough, I see from your answer. I'm not debating your points of neanderthals and humans and interbreeding or the neanderthals being more survivalists. Well, actually, it would be nice to links to show your points on that. I did some research, and see various sites with that such historic talking points, but it's hard to agree on all of it, when you cannot prove how they came to be for what purpose and for whom.

[kmt_sesh]

I know I am late on this, I was raised a JW, all my family is JW and my uncles are Elders. JW's have no issue with evolution. This woman seems to just be ignorant of it, many will go to the meetings and act alll christianny and all, yet know little to nothing of the faith they claim to be.

JW's stand on the fence on evolution in the manner of saying 'God has his ways, and there is no reason why he could not have used evolution as a way to create.... '

you may get a few die hards who will say, no no, it is missinterpreted by man.. but most will just say that there is nothing wrong with saying that evolution is gods tool.

I am no longer a JW, being excommunicated, I am agnostic.

Thanks for your input from personal experience. What you describe sounds a lot like any population of Catholics: some are zealots but many, if not most, are middle of the road or progressive. And many Catholics look at evolution as a possible means by which God guided things to become what they are (and what they will be). My own mom was a devout Roman Catholic but always maintained an open mind about things. I no longer practice the religion but at the same time am not an atheist.

[kmt_sesh]

Gidday Mate!!

Thanks for that!! I re-read it at least half a dozen times since, and thought I was going out of my mind, which many I am sure would be happy to verify, but not in this instance!

That sounds pretty standard, I would agree with you there even with the dim views I have of religions, I do not feel "The People" are the problem. Extending religious exemptions to all means people just take advantage of it, like Scientology did, and gives vile groups that do not deserve to exist a voice - like Westboro, and again, although my intimate knowledge of Westboro is entirely media, as I am not even sure of they exist here in Australia (hope not!) from what I have seen again, it is the elder few who are using the younger generations to fulfil their fantasies of control. The Louis Theroux program goes to visit a couple of families involved, and some of those kids seem pretty mixed up, but are relying on their parents, and it almost looks like fear, which just seems the worst thing a parent can do to their offspring, but in the name of God, it seems almost any atrocity can be justified with the right person at the head of any organisation.

Rather than even consider something as outrageous as banning religion, I think it would be a much better idea to simply make it accountable for all of it's actions good and bad.

It is a sad state of affairs, very old ideas in a modern world seem to end badly more often than not it seems.

I am pleased to say ourGovernment is right on the ball there the actually forced an Anti Vaxxer group to change the name of their organisation to reflect the situation accurately

LINK - Australian Vaccination Network changes name to reflect sceptical stance

The Australian Vaccination Network has changed its name to one that more clearly reflects its anti-vaccination views.

The group will now be known as the Australian Vaccination-Skeptics Network.

The New South Wales Fair Trading Department has been pursuing the group for some time after receiving complaints about its misleading name.

The general populace has to be protected, if parents refuse to vaccinate their children I agree they should not be allowed in public places including schools, and I also agree it sounds harsh, but it's really the only decent option. You are certainly anything but alone there.

I just thought it was old school too, thanks again for chiming in, I did spend some time with my father in his Catholic Church in his final years, and attended very regularly for a while there. From what I saw, most took the practise to be symbolic in a modern world, although the elderly seemed to have greater reverence for the practise.

Appreciate your thoughts there, again I thought I was going crazy, and that's not such a fine line for me I reckon.....

Glad you did

Modern Religion is quite different to what we knew only a mere 20 years ago I feel, the entire globe seems a rather difefrnt place in fact.

Perfect cartoon.

Like I mentioned in my post above, I was raised Roman Catholic by a devout mom (passed away in 2011) but no longer practice the religion. I haven't my entire adult life—but I am not an theist. I consider myself more spiritual than religious and personally feel the spiritual aspect of things is a lot more complicated than the Bible or any other extant religious doctrine can understand. But that's just me. At the same time, thanks to the example my mom set for me through life, I harbor no real ill will against religion. I see the powerful potential it has for good. But I'm not naive and I see how it has been used (and often still is) as a weapon. It is used as such by a small-minded and ignorant minority, but the minority gives the majority a massive black eye. Look at what fanatical jihadists have done to Islam, for example.

And what a similar sect has done for many other organized faiths, Christianity included. I could never accept a religious group that thinks a seizure-prone child is possessed by a demon, so they strap him down and pray the demon away...while the child dies. To me this is manslaughter and everyone involved should go to prison for the rest of their lives. The same is true for children deprived of vital medical care baed on religious grounds. This is child abuse, plain and simple. Such parents should have their parental rights permanently stripped. Adults can deprive themselves all they want, but every child deserves every chance at life.

LOL Your post comforts me. I was afraid people would see me as too reactionary. I am pretty conservative about most things, but not all. I feel religion has a place in many people's lives, and it can be a force for good. In modern times religions struggle to remain relevant, and it's no secret that a lot of people no longer practice the faiths in which their grandparents were raised. If religion doesn't remain relevant, it will ensure its own extinction.

[ShadowSot]

US Catholicism is much removed from what the Vatican still holds. Which I am all in favor of.

My mother still considers herself devout, but got divorced and remarried, and supports marriage equality.

Still takes the Eucharist.

[kmt_sesh]

US Catholicism is much removed from what the Vatican still holds. Which I am all in favor of.

My mother still considers herself devout, but got divorced and remarried, and supports marriage equality.

Still takes the Eucharist.

I will keep her secret. Well, unless the Pope asks me face to face. He seems like such a nice guy.

Are you asking me to lie to the Pope?

[docyabut2]

So I have gotten to know this girl at work pretty well. She's a older lady but super religious. Doesn't celebrate any Holidays not even her own Birthday.

Now I am Catholic and according to my Parents I am not supposed to believe in Evolution. However I let the Evidence speak for itself.

I was telling her about some of the stuff I have read about certain Genetic anomalies that appear like how some people have Tails, Completely covered in fur, lizard skin, and even three chambered hearts in Humans. And how these are throwbacks to evolution. Her answer to just about all of that was it is "God's Will."

The part I stumped her on was when I brought up the Fossil Record. I asked her what she thought of the Fossil Record with all of the different types of Human Species we have found over the years and if they were all "Hoaxes". Because people do Hoax stuff all the time.

She said hmm I don't know I will have to think about that one.........

So next time a JW comes knocking at the door ask them what they think of the Fossil Record with the different types of Humans found like the Hobbit, and Neanderthal. Ask them why would God create multiple types of Humans? And why are we the only ones left standing...........

I had two old Jehovah Witness ladies 90 and 92 that have passed on now come to my house for years. They knew I was only studying religions and we had many long talks. I find there is some truths in all religions.

[ShadowSot]

I will keep her secret. Well, unless the Pope asks me face to face. He seems like such a nice guy.

Are you asking me to lie to the Pope?

No. I'm telling you to lie to the Pope. Nocely.

[kmt_sesh]

No. I'm telling you to lie to the Pope. Nocely.

Well, all right. But it'll be your fault if I burst into flames right then and there.

[Mr Walker]

I have been attending a Baptist church with my wife for a couple of months now.

Adam and Eve, the whole thing. I just keep my yap shut, even though I do believe in evolution.

What should I do? My wife wants to go every Sunday.

Learn to enjoy it, or seek a divorce.

Is your wife a ' true believer', or does she just like the formality and tradition of church going?

You don't have to answer that, but it is something to reflect on.

[Mr Walker]

I had a Bible study with a couple Jehovah's Witnesses for about a month when I was in college. I must say I was naive back then, but even then I soon saw the trick true believers use. I would not, however, say Jehovah's Witnesses are the worst among these -- the Roman Catholic priest I also studied with was far, far worse, and watching some of the preachers on TV gives me cold chills. JWs stuck to their reading of the Bible -- these others don't even do that and invent history and facts to suit.

I will say one thing about JWs -- they are consistent and rational once one accepts their premise -- that the Bible is God's word. They are clear proof that the Bible really is a fiddle on which one can play almost any tune. They also clearly demonstrate the problems with the "proof text" method of argument -- whether it involves the Bible, the Constitution or some legal document being analyzed by a lawyer, the Q'uran, or whatever. Words are slippery and can be interpreted and interpreted and interpreted, and using other texts to "clarify" them is even worse as these are carefully chosen.

I agree I spent a year studying with them as well as with mormons and other denominations in my area out of interest in all the ways people worship god. I found them to be exceptionally nice people and excellent citizens but tied down by a lot of dogmatic belief. This isolated them from the rest of the world, both physically and psychologically But that is also exactly what they think should happen. That true Christians should live in the world but not be of the world, ie not be worldly

[Mr Walker]

Anyone who knocks on a strangers door to proselytize should be ready to have the person answering that door proselytize right back at them.

i agree it makes the exchange much more interesting. A cup of tea and a biscuit help but some denominations prefer whiskey.

[Mr Walker]

But how are dinosaurs millions of years old when the Earth is only 6000 years old?

Check mate, atheist!

Obviously they are alien beings.

[Mr Walker]

That's rough. Whenever I run into something the wife says "We" believe, which doesn't really affect my life, I just go along with it. It is kind of like eating Health Food. "Yum... Yes this dry salad IS delicious...".

'And that black dress makes you look 10 pounds lighter and five years younger dear' (gotta be careful with this one that they don't think you are insinuating they normally look older and fatter than they are.)

[Mr Walker]

Yeah, you can argue with the church and all it's teachings but do not argue with the wife. It will go nowhere and you will always lose and years later she will be able to bring the argument back up word for word. Some things are best left alone.

Mind you this one works sometimes when she calls you an idiot etc 'Oh but dear, from all the women i could have had, i married/chose YOU. I cant possibly be that much of a fool/idiot, whatever.'

[Frank Merton]

I know I am late on this, I was raised a JW, all my family is JW and my uncles are Elders. JW's have no issue with evolution. This woman seems to just be ignorant of it, many will go to the meetings and act alll christianny and all, yet know little to nothing of the faith they claim to be.

JW's stand on the fence on evolution in the manner of saying 'God has his ways, and there is no reason why he could not have used evolution as a way to create.... '

you may get a few die hards who will say, no no, it is missinterpreted by man.. but most will just say that there is nothing wrong with saying that evolution is gods tool.

I am no longer a JW, being excommunicated, I am agnostic.

What you say is to me interesting. As a matter of fact when I had my experiences with JWs they had a booklet specifically attacking evolution on scientific grounds, and also maintaining that it was contrary to scripture. It would seem they have changed and maybe decided to downplay this, or just ignore it, as it is kinda hard to fit evolution into their cosmogony (although my contact with them is indeed old -- dating from the 1960s) and they have proved amenable to doctrinal change in the past.

As someone disfellowshipped (a practice I find among the most abhorrent of their teachings), do they still insist that a disfellowshipped person be avoided and ostracized utterly or has this also relaxed any?

[Frank Merton]

Ok, fair enough, I see from your answer. I'm not debating your points of neanderthals and humans and interbreeding or the neanderthals being more survivalists. Well, actually, it would be nice to links to show your points on that. I did some research, and see various sites with that such historic talking points, but it's hard to agree on all of it, when you cannot prove how they came to be for what purpose and for whom.

Do you think animals come to be for specified purposes or for specific other animals? That seems a strange idea if I read you right.

[Mr Walker]

Mention was made above of how Jehovah's Witnesses tend to tear families apart. I think this is one of the great evils of all doctrinaire religion -- they latch onto naive young people, and some maybe not so young, and teach them that their family has false doctrine that leads to Hell or something similar (JW's don't believe in Hell but the eternal death they do teach is not much more sensible when it comes to punishment for a short lifetime's misbehavior).

This tends to split families, which the doctrinaire endorse, and even Jesus said as much about tearing families apart. This is the main reason missionaries are so hated in much of the world.

Sadly true.

However any doctrine can tear a family apart, even following different football teams causes irrevocable family separations and disinheritance if the allegiance is very strong. Any time two people hold very disparate views, those views will cause a rift between them. Normally one side gives in on an issue but where both have strongly held views and wont compromise, conflict is inevitable. I think Christ recognised this in his teachings. If one chooses to follow a spiritual path it will cause conflict with those close to you who do not.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

I had two old Jehovah Witness ladies 90 and 92 that have passed on now come to my house for years. They knew I was only studying religions and we had many long talks. I find there is some truths in all religions.

Yes there are truths in all religions -- this is probably unavoidable about any belief system of enough complexity. I would also assert that that coin has an obverse -- that there are falsehoods in all religions.

One can reach one of two (at least two) conclusions from this. One might be that religion in general is a waste of time and worrying about religious truth and untruth are even more a waste of time. The other might be that revealing truth is not a valid function of religion, but instead religion serves other human needs, probably deriving from our need to serve and worship and be comforted by whatever straw we can grasp -- derived ultimately by the natural selection of our evolution.

[Mr Walker]

I stumped a Jehovah Witness once...

They knocked i answered and politely started explaining to them that I was the devil.

That was all it took and they high tailed it out of there.Didn't let me finish explaining that it was my gf at the time that made it known to me

ETA

It all started with a pair of shoes...

I thought your mother had convinced you not to wear that costume around the house.

[Mr Walker]

I would think (this is just a guess) that going door to door brings one into contact with a lot of people out of touch with reality, and one quickly learns to high-tail outta there when one even suspects it.

I used to do a lot of door knocjkng collecting for charity. Admittedly it was before ice/crack etc but while i found a huge range of responses i never cam across anyone dressed up like satan, or otherwise clearly disturbed, and this was in a fairly disadvantaged area. I cant even remember anyone getting angry at me for asking them for money But then I am such a cute and charming character in real life. What got me was that the poorest people gave the most. Must be a lesson in that. Maybe the rich get rich by being thrifty.

[+Paranoid Android]

On the subject of the body and blood of Christ, I was raised Roman Catholic and grew up among Roman Catholics. I'm certain there are Catholics who genuinely believe in the body and blood, but most of us see it as symbolic.

Wow, I'm really on my soap box tonight. I'll stop now.

Maybe this is something like childbirth protection (condoms, pills, etc) where most Catholics don't hold to the strict beliefs of the church, but the doctrine of Transubstantiation is essential to Catholic teaching - while holding the appearance, taste, texture, etc of bread and wine, it is actually the literal body and blood of Jesus, according to Catholic theology.

Of course Vietnamese include actual blood in their diet, even though the government has tried to discourage it as not heart healthy.

I had a cube of congealed cows blood in a bowl of pho that I had a few years back. I didn't see the point, it was completely tasteless, but that's how it was served. Pho is my favourite food of all time, I'd go for that over virtually any dish I could ever have. Add in a heap of chilli and I'm in heaven (yes, pho is the meal served by God in heaven ).