Supreme Court divded by conscience?

[ellapenella]

When does government cross the line as to ruling over people ?For example I moved away from N.Y - reason- I refuse to live in a state that fails to comply with the constitution . Every single borough in N.Y has went downward due to forced implements onto society- in exchange for what?

I don't know if anyone has given thought to this or not but The Supreme Court is conflicted whereas gay marriage is concerned. I think they're conflicted on a lot of things these days. I believe it's because of conscience. Not a selfish consciousness but an obedient conscience towards God.

How does justice measure right & wrong? Good & Bad ? Conscience right? But it is measured according to conscience higher than man - if not things go wrong. Hopefully some of you realize how God & country must go together.

This is an article of the supreme court trying to reach a unified accord clean conscience regarding gay marriage.

http://www.nytimes.c...riage.html?_r=0

"the proper role for government in America is to provide national defense, a court system for civil disputes, a criminal justice system for acts of force and fraud, and little else." ~ Dr. Ron Paul

[Gromdor]

God's law and the constitution however go two different paths. The constitution promotes self-reliance and liberty, whereas God's law is about obedience and love to a higher power.

Just compare the Ten Commandments to the Constitution and Bill of Rights and you will see where they differ.

[GlitterRose]

We see what happens when they go together, and the picture is not pretty. And that's the thing...everyone wants only their religion to be the ruling one. If it opens up that everyone can just disregard the law of the land and parrot religious freedom, then that's everyone. That means the Koran gets into public schools. The Satanic coloring books get in. The Scientology people will be in there handing out stuff. Everyone can discriminate against everyone in any governmental or any business related thing, because there are religions for which that is their belief. So the Christian Identity movement can state that since they believe Jews are literally the spawn of Satan, and brown people are less than human...according to their religion...if they own a business or hold some elected position, they don't have to serve them anymore.

You see how quickly and drastically this can go very badly.

[questionmark]

When does government cross the line as to ruling over people ?

So who but the government are you proposing to rule? The caste of the Priests? The Pope? A King?

[+ouija ouija]

I wonder if N.Y. has noticed you've gone .................

[GlitterRose]

No one is forcing anyone to change their deeply held religious beliefs. The problem is that they can't interfere with anyone else's civil rights. So if you have a deeply held religious belief that gay marriage is wrong, and you can't follow the laws to do your job as a county clerk, then you probably owe it to your god to get a different job. Or is the $80,000 a year really what's important?

I might add...$80,000 a year...for NOT doing your job.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ChaosRose

[questionmark]

No one is forcing anyone to change their deeply held religious beliefs. The problem is that they can't interfere with anyone else's civil rights. So if you have a deeply held religious belief that gay marriage is wrong, and you can't follow the laws to do your job as a county clerk, then you probably owe it to your god to get a different job. Or is the $80,000 a year really what's important?

sure helps when there are other thingies like music on Sunday or failing to go to mass to ignore....

[Iron_Lotus]

No one is forcing anyone to change their deeply held religious beliefs. The problem is that they can't interfere with anyone else's civil rights. So if you have a deeply held religious belief that gay marriage is wrong, and you can't follow the laws to do your job as a county clerk, then you probably owe it to your god to get a different job. Or is the $80,000 a year really what's important?

Cash rules everything around me C.R.E.A.M., get the money, dollar, dollar bill y'all

[GlitterRose]

The thing of it is...people don't elect folks thinking that they're just gonna do whatever the heck they feel like. They expect they're a) gonna actually do their job, and that they're gonna follow the laws, whatever they are...and not "go rogue." That really isn't too much to expect. And everyone knows that laws change, and pretty much everyone knows (or should have known) that this was inevitable. There has never been a Constitutional basis for discriminating against gay people. There have only ever been religious grounds, and our government is not a theocracy. And if someone is a person who thinks this should be a theocracy, then I would say that person is un-American.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ChaosRose

[+and-then]

The USSC is like every other institution in this country today. It is divided by political loyalties. I don't think God has had a place at the table in a very long time.

[GlitterRose]

The USSC is like every other institution in this country today. It is divided by political loyalties. I don't think God has had a place at the table in a very long time.

Again...which version of God are you talking about? Because everyone just automatically thinks it will be theirs. So who do you want at the table, because if you open it up to "God," you're gonna get everyone.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ChaosRose

[questionmark]

The USSC is like every other institution in this country today. It is divided by political loyalties. I don't think God has had a place at the table in a very long time.

If such an entity exists it never had any place on any table, to the contrary of his self appointed representatives.

[+and-then]

If such an entity exists it never had any place on any table, to the contrary of his self appointed representatives.

No, regardless what revisionism you'd like to impose, you cannot change the historical record. I won't argue with you or anyone about this but America prospered and grew stronger until we decided to push the God of the Bible out of every area of our lives. So every complaint about how bad things have gotten amounts to whining about self inflcited wounds. Deal with it. You are NEVER going to see an improvement in this country. It's on it's way down - and it is the BEST of a bad lot.

[shadowhive]

No, regardless what revisionism you'd like to impose, you cannot change the historical record. I won't argue with you or anyone about this but America prospered and grew stronger until we decided to push the God of the Bible out of every area of our lives. So every complaint about how bad things have gotten amounts to whining about self inflcited wounds. Deal with it. You are NEVER going to see an improvement in this country. It's on it's way down - and it is the BEST of a bad lot.

Wow. You say such incredible things. You always manage to impress me with how crazy you sound.

What would you rather have instead then? God imposed on everyone? So what? Forced conversion of every non-christian? Imprisonment for those that don't comply? Atheists and LGBT purged? How is that world preferable exactly?

[questionmark]

No, regardless what revisionism you'd like to impose, you cannot change the historical record. I won't argue with you or anyone about this but America prospered and grew stronger until we decided to push the God of the Bible out of every area of our lives. So every complaint about how bad things have gotten amounts to whining about self inflcited wounds. Deal with it. You are NEVER going to see an improvement in this country. It's on it's way down - and it is the BEST of a bad lot.

ah, another self appointed representative?

[Leonardo]

When does government cross the line as to ruling over people ?

It is the job of government to do it's best to ensure equal, and equitable, conditions and opportunity for all it is elected to govern. Doing so necessarily means compromise in some cases and exerting authority in others.

Believe me, even if you consider government to be onerous - perhaps even "evil" - it is far less onerous than living in a situation without government, and a necessary "evil".

Edited September 5, 2015 by Leonardo

[Leonardo]

Let me ask you this, ellapenella - how has the legalisation of marriage for same-sex couples inconvenienced you personally? How did that ruling inconvenience Ms Davis?

[+and-then]

ah, another self appointed representative?

Not at all. I speak about my own OPINIONS. I have never attempted to compel anyone to believe anything, nor will I ever. IMO the reason people like yourself and poor SH become so angry and dismissive is that the idea that anyone or anything other than yourself will never be greater than YOU in deciding right and wrong. That is your choice. If you believe this country and this world are less chaotic and less dangerous today than it was in years past then I believe you are deluded. Yes, even you, Q. That voice you hear telling what next sarcastic remark to make? That's your pride... be sure and obey it, it's in control, after all.

[ninjadude]

Hopefully some of you realize how God & country must go together.

god and country might go together for an individual. But god and GOVERNMENT have NO PLACE together now or ever.

As my ancestor, Roger Williams (a devoutly religious man) said, there should be a not just a wall but a HIGH wall separating church and state.

http://www.wallofseparation.us/the-origins-of-wall-of-separation/

[questionmark]

Not at all. I speak about my own OPINIONS. I have never attempted to compel anyone to believe anything, nor will I ever. IMO the reason people like yourself and poor SH become so angry and dismissive is that the idea that anyone or anything other than yourself will never be greater than YOU in deciding right and wrong. That is your choice. If you believe this country and this world are less chaotic and less dangerous today than it was in years past then I believe you are deluded. Yes, even you, Q. That voice you hear telling what next sarcastic remark to make? That's your pride... be sure and obey it, it's in control, after all.

Sorry, but I can't take anybody seriously who wants to tell me the opinion of somebody neither he nor I (nor anybody else for the case) has met is supposed to have. As a kid I used to have (like all kids) an imaginary friend or two...can't recall any of them forming my vision of good and bad. And I have to say that I outgrew them.

For my part I don't need any social control or moral pressure groups to know what is right, and that is the law. Everything else is quite secondary.

Edited September 5, 2015 by questionmark

[shadowhive]

Not at all. I speak about my own OPINIONS. I have never attempted to compel anyone to believe anything, nor will I ever. IMO the reason people like yourself and poor SH become so angry and dismissive is that the idea that anyone or anything other than yourself will never be greater than YOU in deciding right and wrong. That is your choice. If you believe this country and this world are less chaotic and less dangerous today than it was in years past then I believe you are deluded. Yes, even you, Q. That voice you hear telling what next sarcastic remark to make? That's your pride... be sure and obey it, it's in control, after all.

The world has always been chaotic and dangerous. A historical (and current) contributor to that chaos and danger has been religion. Today we are better inform on what's going on in the world, in ways no one else before us could be. Go back 200 years and you'd not know anything more than what happened in your own back yard, much less what happened on the other side of the world.

I am angry and dismissive because this 'higher power' of yours has done nothing. Because christians have caused wars and persecution worldwide and play the victim card whenever they're called out on it. Christians use their belief in a higher power to do truly horrible things and that is inexcusable.

Humans should decide what is right and wrong, not god or a holy book written in his name.If we didn't make our own decisions slavery would still be legal, as would marital rape. Women would be second class citizens, unable to decide who to marry or able to leave an abusive marriage. Interacial and interfaith marriages would be illegal. LGBT would still be persecuted fully. And the list goes on. We would, as a society, as a species, be morally bankrupt and stagnant.

You want an idea of what putting god back would do? Just look at the muslim countries where god is front and center, because that's the horror you want.

I fail to see why anyone actually wants all those things. How people can put a positive spin on a god like yours who is, truly, worse than all humanity put together.

Edited September 5, 2015 by shadowhive

[+and-then]

Wow. You say such incredible things. You always manage to impress me with how crazy you sound.

What would you rather have instead then? God imposed on everyone? So what? Forced conversion of every non-christian? Imprisonment for those that don't comply? Atheists and LGBT purged? How is that world preferable exactly?

Very impressive straw man. I never said any of that.

[shadowhive]

Very impressive straw man. I never said any of that.

No you didn't. But before god was 'pushed out' those are the sorts of things that happened. Pushing god out has given non-christians and LGBT greater freedom. You sound like that was a bad thing, a mistake, that should be corrected.

Note also, that I asked what you wanted instead and you completely ignored that. So go on then and then, what is it you actually want?

Edited September 5, 2015 by shadowhive

[shadowhive]

IMO the reason people like yourself and poor SH become so angry and dismissive is that the idea that anyone or anything other than yourself will never be greater than YOU in deciding right and wrong.

And to add to this point specifically. I don't like the idea of a unelected, unaccountable being deciding what is right and wrong. That's why I don't like dictators. Add to that that god is invisible, refuses to talk to us directly and is non-human and that just compounds the problems further. Then add to that that there's no solid evidence that any god actually exists and you have one massive problem. (And that's not even mentioning that god's ideas of right and wrong on many issues are very backward.)

So yes, I'm dissmissive of the idea and each and every one of those reasons to be dismissive is a good one.

Edited September 5, 2015 by shadowhive

[Leo Krupe]

One thing to remember is we (that is, the United States) have always been a very diverse country. There have always been Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, and every other religion represented at some point, at some place in the country since its founding. What many people are disliking is that the idea of the Christian majority is shrinking. And to an extent, it is, because fewer people are religious today than say, 25 or 50 years ago.

What's really changing now isn't so much the "forcing out of God in our lives," it's the focus on the Others. Those who look, act, and believe differently than The Rest of Us. In the past, "they" knew their place. In their own neighborhoods, or in their own part of town. And woe be to he who comes to "our" side of town and stays past sundown, or whistles at a white woman, or tries to Jew me down when I'm buying something.

I'm rereading Harpo Speaks, by Harpo Marx (first published 1961). He details how badly his family was treated by theater managers, landlords, and anyone else who wasn't Jewish. It didn't matter they were white, they were Jews. And for that alone, they were despised. Part of the reason for their success was they left out Jewish humor in their act, and so it played in Peoria. And Kankakee, and Kansas City, and Altoona....

My point is that a lot of people are scared they won't "have it" anymore, whatever "it" is. It's an intangible thing; it's power, it's prestige, it's The Way We've Always Done Things In This Country.

But it's not just whites who feel this way. In the early 70s, Flip Wilson had a comedy album called "Cowboys and Colored People," in which he (Wilson) was talking an American Indian, and at one part, mentioned the name of the advocacy group: "The National Association for the Advanced of Colored People Immediately, and For the Indians On a Gradual Basis." So even though that was a joke bit, it displays how blacks felt (at least through that bit) about Native Americans.

It's an interesting time in our country's history. Almost like the country itself is an adolescent, right between childhood and adulthood. Still throwing tantrums, but eventually, accepting what is.