Germany open to 500,000 refugees a year

[bmk1245]

The only way I can think of is chip them in a place that it can't be removed and have sensors along the border, or maybe done by satellite, so if they cross it someone is notified then use GPS to find them. Probably would be expensive. Bet they would also start screaming about their rights.

Highly doubt that would work, as you mentioned - costly and "screaming". As for "don't easily removed"... I've read and heard that some immigrants would go through cutting themselves just to be granted asylum... So no, thats not an option. Out of the table. Period.

[bmk1245]

And rightfully so. The rights in the EU are for everyone.

Is that so? Do restrictions in rights for illegal immigrants have a place?

[FLOMBIE]

Well, Ashotep, Berlin is a city with about 400.000 Muslims, and it works just fine. There are no clashes in everyday life. Of course you got overzealous people, but those exist in every single aspect of life.

Is that so? Do restrictions in rights for illegal immigrants have a place?

Illegal immigrants? An asylum seeker is not an illegal immigrant.

[bmk1245]

Illegal immigrants? An asylum seeker is not an illegal immigrant.

Everyone, entering country illegally, is illegal immigrant, and only after, literally, saying "I seek asylum", becomes asylum seeker (then document processing, statements, etc). What to do when there are no documents? With hundreds (heck, even few thousands) per month, any country can cope with that (more or less), but when you have ten/hundred fold increase in the flow... Just to represent situation more graphically (sorry for cynicism): clog your toilet, and pee... Nothing major will happen... Now, take a weekend-bean-steak dump, and flush it... Feel the difference.

[FLOMBIE]

Everyone, entering country illegally, is illegal immigrant, and only after, literally, saying "I seek asylum", becomes asylum seeker (then document processing, statements, etc). What to do when there are no documents? With hundreds (heck, even few thousands) per month, any country can cope with that (more or less), but when you have ten/hundred fold increase in the flow... Just to represent situation more graphically (sorry for cynicism): clog your toilet, and pee... Nothing major will happen... Now, take a weekend-bean-steak dump, and flush it... Feel the difference.

No, you are wrong. An illegal immigrant is someone entering a country by violating the country's immigration laws. Someone entering a country to seek asylum is not violating the immigration laws.

[bmk1245]

No, you are wrong. An illegal immigrant is someone entering a country by violating the country's immigration laws. Someone entering a country to seek asylum is not violating the immigration laws.

Heh, if we follow the rules, where do asylum seekers have to stay? How many crossed - through and out - Hungary, for example?

You know what, I don't freaking care, you'll have to deal with it, cause majority of "asylum seekers" will flee to Germany, UK, etc

[FLOMBIE]

Heh, if we follow the rules, where do asylum seekers have to stay? How many crossed - through and out - Hungary, for example?

You know what, I don't freaking care, you'll have to deal with it, cause majority of "asylum seekers" will flee to Germany, UK, etc

We will deal with it and we can. I am pretty certain that new regulations for the distribution of asylum seekers inside the EU are already in the making. If they violate their status, they will get penalized under law. There are already proper mechanisms to deal with that. It's not a new issue.

[bmk1245]

We will deal with it and we can. I am pretty certain that new regulations for the distribution of asylum seekers inside the EU are already in the making. If they violate their status, they will get penalized under law. [...]

Bit optimistic, but ok, lets say it will work.

[...] There are already proper mechanisms to deal with that. It's not a new issue.

Could you care to explain details of "proper mechanisms".

[FLOMBIE]

Fines? Prison? Just to name the obvious.

[bmk1245]

Fines? Prison? Just to name the obvious.

Fines? What can you take from the person John Roe (who has no docs)? His sneakers? Dirty sweatpants?

Prison? OK, you jail John Roe (no docs, imaginary story told) on what grounds? Just to remind you: checking every story told by John Roe might take... with havoc in ME I actually have no idea how long it would take, but I'd guess, quite long... How many John Roes are trying to enter EU? In current situation - helluva lot (info from many bits from different media).

[FLOMBIE]

Fines? What can you take from the person John Roe (who has no docs)? His sneakers? Dirty sweatpants?

Prison? OK, you jail John Roe (no docs, imaginary story told) on what grounds? Just to remind you: checking every story told by John Roe might take... with havoc in ME I actually have no idea how long it would take, but I'd guess, quite long... How many John Roes are trying to enter EU? In current situation - helluva lot (info from many bits from different media).

Why do you mention it so often that they have no documents? When they apply for asylum, they will be documented and given proper documents. And they will also receive money. Because life costs money. There is enough you can sanction.

Seriously, you don't seem to know much about the process of immigration and asylum seeking. On what grounds? Violation of their mandatory residence.

And yes, it takes a few months. so what?

[+DieChecker]

Well, Ashotep, Berlin is a city with about 400.000 Muslims, and it works just fine. There are no clashes in everyday life. Of course you got overzealous people, but those exist in every single aspect of life.

When I was in Germany in the 1990s, everyone was complaining about the Turks.

http://www.todayszam...key_369997.html

Although the young generation of Turkish immigrants born and raised in Germany is mostly fluent in German, they still have problems integrating into German society, and many reportedly face serious economic deprivation and discrimination. This pushes many to move to Turkey, even though most of them only know their ancestral land through their parents' and other relatives' narratives.

“I feel German when I am in Turkey and am called a foreigner when I am in Berlin,” said 28-year-old Filiz Ayan, who left Germany for İstanbul in pursuit of better job opportunities.

Illegal immigrants? An asylum seeker is not an illegal immigrant.

An asylum seeker usually files paperwork, and arrives in a way known to the hosting government, these people are flooding into Hungrey and using the rail lines to get into Germany with no paperwork, and no where to go, and no one knowing they are coming... Thus.... illegally.

They also are not planning on going back, as far as I know, which makes them immigrants, not asylum seekers who will go back when it is safe. Though I could be wrong on this point, many of them may intend to go back right later.

http://www.nytimes.c...ter16.html?_r=0

Edited September 9, 2015 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

This is another good point.

I wouldn't call them terrorists as long as they don't plan and carry out any terror plots.

But I think it is fair to estimate at least 5% radical 'believers'. And if Germany allows 800,000 only for this year it means 40,000 radicals.

I am afraid they not only need 20,000 additional teachers (to teach the language) but also 100,000 additional policemen to cope with this.

Today some newspapers report about salafists who already showed up near those refugee camps warning them to not adopt the western life-style...

I was watching this online today and the same thought struck me.... These people are basically traveling in their hundreds and thousands into the EU heartland without really being challenged at all. Who is to say that there isn't 10,000 ISIS soldiers rounding themselves up in a Berlin district right now? I certainly HOPE that the guys running ISIS (or Al'Quida) are stupid and don't think of this monstrously simple plan to get thousands of terrorists at EU soft targets. I sincerely hope the bad guys aren't smart enough to make a plan that basically only involves walking and riding a train....

[FLOMBIE]

When I was in Germany in the 1990s, everyone was complaining about the Turks.

You must have spoken to the wrong people. I hardly believe it was "everyone". Not where I grew up.

An asylum seeker usually files paperwork, and arrives in a way known to the hosting government, these people are flooding into Hungrey and using the rail lines to get into Germany with no paperwork, and no where to go, and no one knowing they are coming... Thus.... illegally.

They also are not planning on going back, as far as I know, which makes them immigrants, not asylum seekers who will go back when it is safe. Though I could be wrong on this point, many of them may intend to go back right later.

http://www.nytimes.c...ter16.html?_r=0

Again, these people will register at their final destination, thus not being an illegal immigrant. Illegal immigration does not mean crossing the border without a visa. Some of these people do actually have proper visa.

Some of them might want to stay, but they have to go back. There are exceptions, yes, but we had these kinds of situations before, and people do go back.

[bmk1245]

Why do you mention it so often that they have no documents? [...]

Cause its the way illegals are entering EU. It was done in the past, and its going now. On the east border of EU, in Lithuania, for example, there are constant attempts to cross the border without the docs (i.e. cross the border illegally: in the truck concealment, through the forests (easily catchable pray for border patrol), etc). All are being detained, kept in the refuge center, until identity clarified, and dealt accordingly. That is a tiny thingy in comparison of what flows through mediterranean...

[...] And they will also receive money. Because life costs money. [...]

Of course life costs money. Now, let me ask you simple question: is local pensioner, living on 100-200euros (and paying all bills, buying food for himself), worth less than immigrant being payed for apartment/food plus 1.5euro per day, and still complaining about that?!!! Find justice in that, I dare you.

[...] And yes, it takes a few months. so what?

With that influx, it will take years.

[FLOMBIE]

Cause its the way illegals are entering EU. It was done in the past, and its going now. On the east border of EU, in Lithuania, for example, there are constant attempts to cross the border without the docs (i.e. cross the border illegally: in the truck concealment, through the forests (easily catchable pray for border patrol), etc). All are being detained, kept in the refuge center, until identity clarified, and dealt accordingly. That is a tiny thingy in comparison of what flows through mediterranean...

There are ways to filter who is a proper asylum seeker and who not. And yes, it's in no way certain, but that should not matter. Most of them are refugees from the middle east.

Of course life costs money. Now, let me ask you simple question: is local pensioner, living on 100-200euros (and paying all bills, buying food for himself), worth less than immigrant being payed for apartment/food plus 1.5euro per day, and still complaining about that?!!! Find justice in that, I dare you.

A pensioner receives more money in Germany. In 2014 it was an average 1164 Euros. People granted asylum become shelter and 351 Euros, plus 220 Euros per child. And neither the pensioner nor the asylum seeker is worth less. They are worth exactly the same: A human life. That is what this is all about.

With that influx, it will take years.

In total it will. So what? The issue in the middle east will take years as well. There is plenty of time.

[Astra.]

This isn't just a few extra thousand asylum seekers looking for refuge in other countries.

This is a human tsunami of asylum seekers.

It will take more than just a few months to process documents/papers and do back ground checks on these people.

Not to mention the strain and the burden on Germany - and of course other countries who are taking them in - as far as the economics

and infrastructures are concerned within the system.

The strain on finding them housing - employment and education will prove to be a massive task in the long run.

Then there is the health sector - such as extra burden put on hospitals - doctors etc.....

It is not the genuine cases of familes seeking help and refuge that I am concerned about -

it is the many that may slip through the nets undetected - that could be terrorists.

In the long term - all I see is chaos - confusion - and much mayhem that possibly lies ahead.

[FLOMBIE]

We should let all these people die or live in misery, indeed. That is much better for us, and we'll keep it cozy and nice for us, without these people from elsewhere.

I salute you for that much compassion. I am glad I am different. We can holster this problem. And the refugees can be a part of it, if we all work together. Don't be paranoid and scared. Show compassion and rational optimism.

[bmk1245]

There are ways to filter who is a proper asylum seeker and who not. And yes, it's in no way certain, but that should not matter. Most of them are refugees from the middle east.

[...]

Turkey, Pakistan... middle east... 20-year old Pakistani throws passport, and becomes 16-year old Syrian, go figure...

[...]

A pensioner receives more money in Germany. In 2014 it was an average 1164 Euros. People granted asylum become shelter and 351 Euros, plus 220 Euros per child. And neither the pensioner nor the asylum seeker is worth less. They are worth exactly the same: A human life. That is what this is all about.

[...]

I brought pensioner income in Baltic states, where some refugees will be placed, and I used words from Syrian refugee (call him John Roe) in Latvia, who complained about refuge conditions (monetary), and had a plan to flee to Germany after granted asylum. So, once again, how do you keep John Roe in Latvia? Simple question... Requires simple answer...

[...]In total it will. So what? The issue in the middle east will take years as well. There is plenty of time.

So what? Freaking havoc in detention centers, constant clashes between groups, certain deaths.

[Astra.]

We should let all these people die or live in misery, indeed. That is much better for us, and we'll keep it cozy and nice for us, without these people from elsewhere.

I salute you for that much compassion. I am glad I am different. We can holster this problem. And the refugees can be a part of it, if we all work together. Don't be paranoid and scared. Show compassion and rational optimism.

If you want to bury your head in the sand - and sugar coat this serious situation - then by all means do so.

I choose to take a more rational and realistic approach.

I do have compassion for the genuine refugees - but I do have concerns and doubts that they are all genuine.

I also have concerns that the countries who are taking so many in - will eventually implode under the enormous pressure.

Time will tell.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Astra-

[bmk1245]

We should let all these people die or live in misery, indeed. That is much better for us, and we'll keep it cozy and nice for us, without these people from elsewhere.

I salute you for that much compassion. I am glad I am different. We can holster this problem. And the refugees can be a part of it, if we all work together. Don't be paranoid and scared. Show compassion and rational optimism.

Please, those in the need will die, or have a bleak life in UN camps, while you will blabber about "poor" refugees (majority 20-40 year males) who have been able to pay $#!+load of money to bring their ***e$ in EU, while leaving their wifes and children behind...

Lets say, you are running away from the war. Whom you would send first to the safety? Do I have to spell it? Don't say it starts with "m" and ends with "e"...

[FLOMBIE]

Turkey, Pakistan... middle east... 20-year old Pakistani throws passport, and becomes 16-year old Syrian, go figure...

Nobody will mistake a Pakistani for a Syrian. Turks have much easier and better legal ways to get into Germany. And they don't even speak Arabic.

I brought pensioner income in Baltic states, where some refugees will be placed, and I used words from Syrian refugee (call him John Roe) in Latvia, who complained about refuge conditions (monetary), and had a plan to flee to Germany after granted asylum. So, once again, how do you keep John Roe in Latvia? Simple question... Requires simple answer...

So we must have to make sure everybody gets a similar amount of money in each EU nation. We can handle that. And I already told you how: Send them back and penalize them.

So what? Freaking havoc in detention centers, constant clashes between groups, certain deaths.

What are you even going off about? Detention centers? They shouldn't and will not be in detention centers. Clashes always happen. But thankfully are hateful people are strong minority. Certain deaths? I mean, everybody will die eventually, but I have no idea what you mean in this context.

[FLOMBIE]

If you want to bury your head in the sand - and sugar coat this serious situation - then by all means do so.

I choose to take a more rational and realistic approach.

I do have compassion for the genuine refugees - but I do have concerns and doubts that they are all genuine.

I also have concerns that the countries who are taking so many in - will eventually implode under the enormous pressure.

Time will tell.

So you should rather leave them all out, because a few of the could be coming under false pretenses? That is not very compassionate.

[+and-then]

I'd prefer to not predict, as this whole pile of garbage topic depresses me, and our own current government is stupid enough to do the same thing. Having this going on in Canada is just terrible, I hope you guys don't let it happen.

As I watched this today on the news, it occurred to me that the West is being subjected to a "surge" of it's own. If these people truly were looking to come west and change to fit the culture and society then they should be welcomed. But there are few examples where this has happened. And this silliness coming from Juncker isn't even worth the time it takes to talk about it. Europe is going to have MILLIONS flooding in soon unless they use force to stop them. My guess is that once this becomes apparent, a real war in Syria between Russia and the West is going to occur. Perilous times indeed.

[bmk1245]

Nobody will mistake a Pakistani for a Syrian. Turks have much easier and better legal ways to get into Germany. And they don't even speak Arabic.[...]

I speak fluently in Russian, so? That doesn't make me Russian, and without Russian native translator, you wont' see a difference. Do EU authorities, responsible for crisis mitigation have enough Turks/Arabs to translate? I mean translate, not translate.google like...

[...]

So we must have to make sure everybody gets a similar amount of money in each EU nation. We can handle that. And I already told you how: Send them back and penalize them.

[...]

And again... No passport... sneakers... sweatpants... Germany...

[...]

What are you even going off about? Detention centers? They shouldn't and will not be in detention centers. Clashes always happen. But thankfully are hateful people are strong minority. Certain deaths? I mean, everybody will die eventually, but I have no idea what you mean in this context.

Don't like "Detention centers"? Lets call it "Fancy centers". Do exactly the same, but with fancy title... Thats better?