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OverSword

All male vs mixed gender marines

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FLOMBIE

Yes, job title. Infantry? Medic? Scout? Forward Observer?

Is this about my personal life now? It was an infantry unit.

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Agent0range

Is this about my personal life now? It was an infantry unit.

Why would your infantry unit have females in it? I'm just genuinely curious about this infantry unit with females out on patrol for days at a time.

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FLOMBIE

Why would your infantry unit have females in it? I'm just genuinely curious about this infantry unit with females out on patrol for days at a time.

Because females are allowed to be part of these branches of service in Germany, so why wouldn't they?

Edited by FLOMBIE

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F3SS

I doubt we'll find that females will "add" anything to combat units. At best we'll find that there are a rare few who can, at best, just keep up. Those few ought to expect to be treated like men but that poses problem for a lot of men.

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FLOMBIE

I doubt we'll find that females will "add" anything to combat units. At best we'll find that there are a rare few who can, at best, just keep up. Those few ought to expect to be treated like men but that poses problem for a lot of men.

But that can be controlled. Self control is a very masculine ability.

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BlackBearWolf

Because females are allowed to be part of these branches of service in Germany, so why wouldn't they?

i think American males are the issue. They are brought up being seperated from females too much and cant help but be immature and stunted because of this.
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FLOMBIE

i think American males are the issue. They are brought up being seperated from females too much and cant help but be immature and stunted because of this.

Good point. That might be an important factor. The upbringing concerning sexuality and such is much different over here.

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F3SS

But that can be controlled. Self control is a very masculine ability.

Sure but why add one more thing to their already full plates?

i think American males are the issue. They are brought up being seperated from females too much and cant help but be immature and stunted because of this.

Our military hasn't become the world's most fearsome by being open minded and chivalrous. The method is to find what works best, not what seems fair.

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spartan max2

i think American males are the issue. They are brought up being seperated from females too much and cant help but be immature and stunted because of this.

What in the world are you talking about?

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Lucas Cooper Merrin

i think American males are the issue. They are brought up being seperated from females too much and cant help but be immature and stunted because of this.

This is not an isolated American issue! Men are men the world over!

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FLOMBIE

Sure but why add one more thing to their already full plates?

Because it can become a non-issue easily. I can say that from my own experience. The women I had to work with were just as good and well respected as the men.

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F3SS

Because it can become a non-issue easily. I can say that from my own experience. The women I had to work with were just as good and well respected as the men.

Ok then what if it is just an American thing and it causes more distraction for us than contribution? Should we really care about what everyone thinks or continue to do what works best for us?

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BlackBearWolf

Sure but why add one more thing to their already full plates?

Our military hasn't become the world's most fearsome by being open minded and chivalrous. The method is to find what works best, not what seems fair.

i agree. Choose the best of the best regardless of gender. No room for playing nice.

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F3SS

You really know how to fire everyone up oversword. What's next? Victoria's Secret models demand ring time in Sumo wrestling.

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BlackBearWolf

Ok then what if it is just an American thing and it causes more distraction for us than contribution? Should we really care about what everyone thinks or continue to do what works best for us?

or we can slowly change and do things that are not based off of fear or ignorance. We can make things work, we just have to try. Not trying is just living in ignorance. Let's leave a better world for our children.
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F3SS

i agree. Choose the best of the best regardless of gender. No room for playing nice.

That's fair enough but I'll bet money that for every spot taken by a female that spot could've easily been filled with a number of males who could out perform them. That's why I see this as females being crowbarred into combat roles simply for the sake of it.

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F3SS

Let's leave a better world for our children.

That might be tough to do if our military is softened.

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FLOMBIE

Ok then what if it is just an American thing and it causes more distraction for us than contribution? Should we really care about what everyone thinks or continue to do what works best for us?

Well yes, certainly. I don't know if it's just an American thing. And I didn't read the study, so I also don't know exactly how the mixed units were underperforming. The article is lacking numbers, but is mentioning physical disadvantages, which would to be expected. I know it's an exception, but I know females who can keep up with men in these kind of tests. All I say that if a woman can get the regular qualifications, I don't see any reason to keep her out of service. We certainly shouldn't just include them because of PC.

Edited by FLOMBIE
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CRYSiiSx2

So father merrin im guessing you dont want gay males in combat roles either because all those same issues will apply.

No, they would not apply. There is a huge difference, a pair of balls and a dick being the most noticeable.

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Wickian

As long as they don't lower the bar so more than the lone woman here or there can make the cut, I'm not against it.

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Kenemet

I strongly disagree with having females in the special forces!

In extreme situations a mans mind must be on the task in hand, a female presence in a direct combat unit destroys the bond, creates jealously and sexual tension, alters a mans natural protective instincts, basically it alters the entire focus and effectiveness of the unit, red blooded males are under enough stress and strain without adding a sexual distractions and weak links

So you're saying that American men are weak-minded sex obsessed creatures who can only function in same-gender groups? And that with a woman around they go all hormonal and fall apart?

I find that kinda hard to believe. Women and men work alongside each other in police and fire units (equally stressful) and they seem to function just fine.

Other countries' military units have integrated with women and had few problems. Perhaps it's the inherent chauvinism of the American military system standing in the way of integrated troops?

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and then

God behold, what if a woman might actually be better than a man! :rofl:

It happens, but this study seems to provide evidence that mixed units simply aren't as effective. Since failure in real world situations for these marines can mean death, I'd say the study should be digested and recommendations made from it. The military is not a place for social experiments - especially in combat arms.
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Lucas Cooper Merrin

So you're saying that American men are weak-minded sex obsessed creatures who can only function in same-gender groups? And that with a woman around they go all hormonal and fall apart?

I find that kinda hard to believe. Women and men work alongside each other in police and fire units (equally stressful) and they seem to function just fine.

Other countries' military units have integrated with women and had few problems. Perhaps it's the inherent chauvinism of the American military system standing in the way of integrated troops?

What im saying is that no matter what the profession or industry, when men work along side women there are allways complications! Whether it be affairs, discrimination, jealously, sexual tension, it happens all the time,its basic human nature! and in day to day life in run of the mill jobs it dosnt really effect things, but in life or death situations it matters alot!

I dont expect the average civilian to understand just how intense a special forces position is! Every aspect is magnified, every emotion is multiplied. Its not a 9-5 filing reports, its not putting out fires or selling insurance or delivering parcels, its killing human beings! Its being shot at! Its being under the constant threat of IED's and snipers, its about holding your best friend as they bleed out after taking an RPG proximity hit, every step you take could be your last! And you dont go home every night to your wife or partner, you cant sleep because you are haunted by the horrifc scenes you have witnessed that day! All you have is your unit and the unbreakable bond and trust that gives you a reason to get up the next day and do it all over again!

So believe me when i say im not being sexist, im not suggesting women are not capable, what im saying is you are operating under the most intense psychological and physical pressure with absolutely no room for distraction, or any change in unit dynamics that may comprises the overall mentality of everybody involved! Unfortunately the special forces is the one profession where a slip in concentration or an emotional quandary simply cannot be allowed to occur!

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Stubbly_Dooright

What im saying is that no matter what the profession or industry, when men work along side women there are allways complications! Whether it be affairs, discrimination, jealously, sexual tension, it happens all the time,its basic human nature! and in day to day life in run of the mill jobs it dosnt really effect things, but in life or death situations it matters alot!

I dont expect the average civilian to understand just how intense a special forces position is! Every aspect is magnified, every emotion is multiplied. Its not a 9-5 filing reports, its not putting out fires or selling insurance or delivering parcels, its killing human beings! Its being shot at! Its being under the constant threat of IED's and snipers, its about holding your best friend as they bleed out after taking an RPG proximity hit, every step you take could be your last! And you dont go home every night to your wife or partner, you cant sleep because you are haunted by the horrifc scenes you have witnessed that day! All you have is your unit and the unbreakable bond and trust that gives you a reason to get up the next day and do it all over again!

So believe me when i say im not being sexist, im not suggesting women are not capable, what im saying is you are operating under the most intense psychological and physical pressure with absolutely no room for distraction, or any change in unit dynamics that may comprises the overall mentality of everybody involved! Unfortunately the special forces is the one profession where a slip in concentration or an emotional quandary simply cannot be allowed to occur!

Kenemet made a good point. I would consider police and fire units as a life and death situation just as much, and yes men and women work together with no problem there. Living on a military base for years, I see both genders work professionally together.

Frankly, I'm believing you Father, that you are not sexist, but one has to realize that there is also a responsibility for one's behavior more. And women too can be ....................... attracted too, to put it innocently. The bottom line, the job, and the job comes first and adults are quite capable of performing without letting their behavior get in the way. There will always be any sort of 'complications' in any job, the goal is to be professional.

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Leonardo

From the article:

In 2013, the US military lifted its ban on women serving in combat. Shortly after, the Marine Corps began what it calls an “unprecedented research effort” to understand the impact of gender integration on its combat forces. That took the form of a year-long experiment called the Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force, in which 400 Marines—100 of them female—trained for combat together and then undertook a simulated deployment, with every facet of their experience measured and scrutinized.

All branches of the military are facing a January 1, 2016, deadline to open all combat roles to women. The Marine Corps is using this experiment to decide whether to request exceptions to that mandate. The Corps’ summary of the experiment, posted online today by NPR, concludes that combat teams were less effective when they included women.

Overall, the report says, all-male teams and crews outperformed mixed-gender ones on 93 out of 134 tasks evaluated. All-male teams were universally faster “in each tactical movement.” On “lethality,” the report says:

Continued here

I note the article does not mention whether the "reduced accuracy" was actually a particular issue with the female members of the team, or were the males simply underperforming? Likewise, all the other metrics do not indicate it was the actions of the female members which was the reason for the mixed-gender team being less effective, but their presence.

This would not suggest to me that mixed-gender teams would not be as effective as single-gender teams, but that social and gender-specific behavioural patterns were the reason behind the poor performance - specifically that the males may have been subconsciously distracted by the presence of female team-members. It is possibly a matter of how the male team-members perceive the female team-members, and not how the female team-members perform.

If that is the case, then it is likely the issue would disappear over time as the integration of male and females into fire-teams became perceived as 'normal' and the males (and/or possibly the females) stopped viewing the opposite gender members as different or 'special'.

Edited by Leonardo
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