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OverSword

All male vs mixed gender marines

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OverSword

That would not solve the problem. They are not stupid.

How would that not solve the problem? They are out there on the firing range and the obstacle course practicing regularly the only thing different is how statistics are being arranged and there is no need at all for the marines on the practice field to be aware of that. All the people that think this is somehow rigged are wrong I think. It's pretty clear in these tests the top 25th percentile of females aligned with the bottom 25th percentile of males. That's not hard to believe at all IMO. Those that think this is rigged must also believe that a WNBA team can keep up with an NBA team or that mixed gender UFC matches are just around the corner. Keep dreaming. Edited by OverSword
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Stubbly_Dooright

My question is, when they are selecting special forces trainees, have they changed any of the physical requirements from years past? Also if you were to hand the results of all the testing of the applicants to a person who did not know the gender of the applicants, only the results of each test, would the women have been chosen? If the answer is yes, then by all means, they deserve it, but if the answer is no, then something other than the best interest of the military is afoot. Also in a time when we have sequestration and military units are being deactivated, troops getting their walking papers, why would we waste money training people on functions they are not legally able to do, unless it is for photo ops for politicians to garner the female vote? If we determine that the best army is made up of 6'4" 250 lb Martian hermorphrodites, then we should be looking for them. The point of the military is to win wars not to win popularity or be a jobs program, or to raise male or female self esteem. The military exists to kill the enemy or convince the potential enemy it is futile to ever attack us.

In a sense, I see your point, if we look at the historical significance of wars were for and how they did it. Although, I wonder in the varying differences of cultures in the Native American people of the past, where they were varying tribes and varying traditions, ( I do believe there were not only patriarchal societies, but matriarchal ones as well. And women fought along side men.

http://www.indians.o...ican-women.html

http://plainshumanit...doc/egp.gen.045

I wonder how the training was for these cultures?

And as well, if I put a slightly humoristic, but yet truthful thought in the heart of some, you give a large group of mothers into fighting mode, by telling them their children were going to be harmed by the enemy, the enemy is toast! ;):P:devil:

Well, I say this as a mother, I would die for my children, and if they were ever harmed by someone or some group, I would find any way to destroy them......................................... slowly!

The "eventually" is sincerely what concerns me. Men generally feel the need to protect women to their detriment. They will come to a woman's defense, whether we need it or not., putting their own lives in danger.

It took me years to train my husband to back off when I said, "I got this". :lol: He has never been one to get into fights to begin with, but he won't back down when confronted with certain situations. I can pretty easily diffuse a situation that could quickly take a turn for the worst.

I can understand the mindset being there for some time, but I agree in this sense, it should be disfused, if by a slow pace.

Here's the thing, the man's urge to defend and protect women, well can't that go both ways? Granted, I think about that yes, in a ratio, men are built stronger than women. But would you be assured of a not so bright muscled bound man who cannot think for himself in a dangerous situation, or a well intelligent, resourceful, and very confident woman who would think of a way to defend herself and others for that matter? I would think, that the woman can herself, but that particular man may need help. Do not women feel the need to 'protect' men too? I'll let a man open the door for me, I would even thank him. I do want to hold a door for him, not just as an appreciation to him, but to be there for him too. Why can't women show that they want to defend men as well. I just think that sometimes, there is a need in other aspects. :yes:

I think the pertinent question is why should men have to fight against their natural instincts, when every other group on the planet is actively encouraged to embrace them these days?

I wonder though. Is it a natural instinct, or a cultural one?

If a woman is to prove her worth measured against the capabilities of fighting fit men, wont that mean a woman has to be more alike a man just to be equal ?

~

I don't think so. If I am understanding the point of question, that is. Is it meaning how feminine she is, if she can bench press the same weight as a man can? If that is the question, I do believe a woman can feel just still a woman, and still equal to the man, in how they meet challenges.

Again, if I am understanding your question correctly.

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright

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LV-426

I wonder though. Is it a natural instinct, or a cultural one?

Natural I'd say, but I can only offer my own opinion :)

We're animals at the end of the day. I think we're biologically programmed to act in a certain manner. Sure, there are environmental variables, and psychological factors that influence behavior, but I think in modern times some try too hard to make us "better" than we actually are.

Sorry... I can't help but throw another homage in, to one of my favourite films!

There's a scene in Serenity where Mal says he doesn't hold to the belief that we can 'make people better', relating to a government experiment to weed aggression out of people that went catastrophically wrong.

I know... my arguments will never get taken seriosuly when I rely heavily on pop culture references! :blush:

There's a serious point to be found in there though. Where do we draw the line on what our natural instincts tell us, and should we attempt to change nature to make us 'better'?

Like I say, it's only my opinion. Maybe it's better to consult a contemporary of Freud regarding the Oedipus and Electra Complexes :unsure2:

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Erowin

Your right, its a natural male instinct, its very difficult to overcome a preset reaction! Its like the way a female may respond to the crys of a child!

I agree that females are by far the better sex at being able to diffuse a situation before it escalates, but special ops go in when things have already taken a turn for the worst!

Soldiers always get really close to other squad members though, and they fight pretty hard to protect each other because they become family. I'd hope that in a more equal future, if orders were to leave a fellow soldier behind (and that soldier was female) they have the self control needed to obey. I mean going into the military you are trained to kill, probably even woman combatants if needed. If they can override that instinct of 'don't kill women' to obey orders, I suspect they can obey orders about their fellow soldiers.

If a woman can pass the marines various tests and is willing to possibly die for her country I see no reason she shouldn't be allowed to fight.

Edited by Erowin
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Erowin
I wonder though. Is it a natural instinct, or a cultural one?

That's also a good question! History shows that many innocent women and even not so innocent women were killed by men no problem- plenty of massacres in ancient times killed everyone in the area regardless of gender. There are also plenty of men who enjoy hurting women or hunt them specifically. Plenty of serial killers targeted women. I'm not so sure it's encoded in our genes. It does make sense for a small society to place value over womens lives because they can only breed once every 2 years maybe, whereas a single man could impregnate 1,000 women in a short amount of time theoretically. If you have 10 women and 90 men it would be much harder to keep the population up than if you had 90 women and 10 men.

Still, that doesn't apply to society anymore because there's so many of us.

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Frank Merton

We all shudder at the thought of the "weaker sex" being exposed to combat hell. Fact is we should shudder at anyone being exposed.

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Deleted

i prefer all women marines, did they test that? I guess not.

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Yamato

To our resident black belts, special forces, fighter pilots, etc

She will destroy you.

mma23n-6-web.jpg

But ooh she's a bright shiny object and our male lobes will want to protect her and take unreasonable risks to ensure her safety and thereby jeopardize the unit cohesion of the sacred brotherhood. Seriously?

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Lucas Cooper Merrin

To our resident black belts, special forces, fighter pilots, etc

She will destroy you.

mma23n-6-web.jpg

But ooh she's a bright shiny object and our male lobes will want to protect her and take unreasonable risks to ensure her safety and thereby jeopardize the unit cohesion of the sacred brotherhood. Seriously?

You cannot take a unique example and use it to generalise!

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Leonardo

You cannot take a unique example and use it to generalise!

Well, it would be premature to say she is a "unique example" when not everyone has been "tested".

Provided a woman is able to qualify for service in the Marines or even the Special Forces, I see no reason she should not be allowed to serve alongside men. The 'test' in the OP article was biased, as it pitted new recruits against seasoned veterans. So, we don't really know if those new female recruits performed not as well, equal to, or even better than new male recruits would have.

That is the acid test, not the results from the badly constructed 'test' that the Marines conducted.

And all the objections (from men) I have read so far in this thread look to me like nothing more than chest-thumping rather than rational arguments.

Edited by Leonardo
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Lucas Cooper Merrin

You cannot take a unique example and use it to generalise!

You cant take a MMA fighter and compare her to that female soldier either! Your argument is total nonsense!

Your compairing a prize rooster to the rest of the chicken coop!

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LV-426

To our resident black belts, special forces, fighter pilots, etc

She will destroy you.

mma23n-6-web.jpg

But ooh she's a bright shiny object and our male lobes will want to protect her and take unreasonable risks to ensure her safety and thereby jeopardize the unit cohesion of the sacred brotherhood. Seriously?

I wonder if she'd destroy these guys?

00-military-muscle-02.jpg

Sorry... just wanted to jump on the bandwagon of posting an irrelevent picture to backup an argument.

These guys look pretty beefy though. I'm sure you can use them to further your stereotypical view of 'the sacred brotherhood.'

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Lucas Cooper Merrin

I wonder if she'd destroy these guys?

00-military-muscle-02.jpg

Sorry... just wanted to jump on the bandwagon of posting an irrelevent picture to backup an argument.

These guys look pretty beefy though. I'm sure you can use them to further your stereotypical view of 'the sacred brotherhood.'

What type of websites do you frequent? ?

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spartan max2

To our resident black belts, special forces, fighter pilots, etc

She will destroy you.

mma23n-6-web.jpg

But ooh she's a bright shiny object and our male lobes will want to protect her and take unreasonable risks to ensure her safety and thereby jeopardize the unit cohesion of the sacred brotherhood. Seriously?

It is genetic to want to protect the women and children first. Women have kids and kids are the next generation. So from and evolution prospective it would make sense that it would be built in to the male psyche.It has none thing to do with being a "bright shiny object".

Is it unfair to women to not let them serve because of how men are designed ? yeah probably, but at the same time it isnt fair or safe to the men to put them in situation where they have to fight their genetically built in instincts instead of only focusing on fighting.

Protecting women and children first is human nature despite how people want to act like its not. the "tribe" survives when the women and children survive, that is why it developed

Edited by spartan max2
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Bama13

It is genetic to want to protect the women and children first. Women have kids and kids are the next generation. So from and evolution prospective it would make sense that it would be built in to the male psyche.It has none thing to do with being a "bright shiny object".

Is it unfair to women to not let them serve because of how men are designed ? yeah probably, but at the same time it isnt fair or safe to the men to put them in situation where they have to fight their genetically built in instincts instead of only focusing on fighting.

Protecting women and children first is human nature despite how people want to act like its not. the "tribe" survives when the women and children survive, that is why it developed

Most animals, not just humans, have this instinct. A male will protect the females and offspring. The females will protect their offspring.

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Rlyeh

Protecting women and children first is human nature despite how people want to act like its not. the "tribe" survives when the women and children survive, that is why it developed

So is killing your rivals, still we have laws against that.

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Four Winds

Been there done that, you put a few women mixed with men and it does not work.

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Stubbly_Dooright

Natural I'd say, but I can only offer my own opinion :)

Ooooh, LV, I could just hug you! :blush::wub: I feel that it's cool. :tu:
We're animals at the end of the day. I think we're biologically programmed to act in a certain manner. Sure, there are environmental variables, and psychological factors that influence behavior, but I think in modern times some try too hard to make us "better" than we actually are.
You know, I think that from time to time. I kind of agree with your animal thoughts. In which, is why I ask the question about whether it's natural or cultural. Sometimes, I wonder if it's one or the other in talking of this, or the lines get blurred somehow.
Sorry... I can't help but throw another homage in, to one of my favourite films!

There's a scene in Serenity where Mal says he doesn't hold to the belief that we can 'make people better', relating to a government experiment to weed aggression out of people that went catastrophically wrong.

I know... my arguments will never get taken seriosuly when I rely heavily on pop culture references! :blush:

There's a serious point to be found in there though. Where do we draw the line on what our natural instincts tell us, and should we attempt to change nature to make us 'better'?

Like I say, it's only my opinion. Maybe it's better to consult a contemporary of Freud regarding the Oedipus and Electra Complexes :unsure2:

And I respect your opinion. :yes: And I do believe I see your point in that scene. I have the DVD to that movie and to the series.

So, onto thanks for that scene, as to what you are trying to convey.........................

and just thanks for just posting anything from that series period. :D

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OverSword

To our resident black belts, special forces, fighter pilots, etc

She will destroy you.

mma23n-6-web.jpg

But ooh she's a bright shiny object and our male lobes will want to protect her and take unreasonable risks to ensure her safety and thereby jeopardize the unit cohesion of the sacred brotherhood. Seriously?

So that's the average woman in your opinion huh? For the record I don't believe for one second that she could best a male UFC fighter in her own weight class. I doubt she could defeat a male fighter from a lighter weight class. Edited by OverSword
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Stubbly_Dooright

That's also a good question! History shows that many innocent women and even not so innocent women were killed by men no problem- plenty of massacres in ancient times killed everyone in the area regardless of gender. There are also plenty of men who enjoy hurting women or hunt them specifically. Plenty of serial killers targeted women. I'm not so sure it's encoded in our genes. It does make sense for a small society to place value over womens lives because they can only breed once every 2 years maybe, whereas a single man could impregnate 1,000 women in a short amount of time theoretically. If you have 10 women and 90 men it would be much harder to keep the population up than if you had 90 women and 10 men.

Still, that doesn't apply to society anymore because there's so many of us.

I love your answer. And I feel these are good points here too. I wonder, and I talk about this as a mother. What if a mother had to chose to die for her children, if the case came up. Well, as a true loving mother, that's a no brainer. I would. :yes: What would a man do, to instinctually protect that woman, but she would die for her children. I think something is being blurred here. Protect the woman, but the woman is protecting her children. And so the confusion of how 'vulnerable' the woman is gets. Let's just see how a person does, no matter the gender, and see what happens. I'm sure the results will surprise a lot of people.

For me, to back up your points, I see a lot more cultural teachings, then natural. And yes, it seems to me history shows some very good examples. :yes:

I wonder if she'd destroy these guys?

00-military-muscle-02.jpg

Sorry... just wanted to jump on the bandwagon of posting an irrelevent picture to backup an argument.

These guys look pretty beefy though. I'm sure you can use them to further your stereotypical view of 'the sacred brotherhood.'

I hope one takes this as a quirky example from me. ( and my insanity to think this) but what if one 'kicks' all four of the individuals in the pics, in that certain 'area' and see what happens. Who will get back up quickly to battle? I sometimes wonder, which gender has the 'achilles heal' ;)

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OverSword

Provided a woman is able to qualify for service in the Marines or even the Special Forces, I see no reason she should not be allowed to serve alongside men. The 'test' in the OP article was biased, as it pitted new recruits against seasoned veterans.

No it wasn't

I read nothing to support what you're saying here, you repeating it doesn't make it true.

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LV-426

What type of websites do you frequent? ?

Trust me when I say I'm not easily shocked, but I actually turned my google filter on for the first time after searching for 'macho soldier'... *shudders*

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Lucas Cooper Merrin

Trust me when I say I'm not easily shocked, but I actually turned my google filter on for the first time after searching for 'macho soldier'... *shudders*

Not for the hetrosexual faint hearted i presume?

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LV-426

I hope one takes this as a quirky example from me. ( and my insanity to think this) but what if one 'kicks' all four of the individuals in the pics, in that certain 'area' and see what happens. Who will get back up quickly to battle? I sometimes wonder, which gender has the 'achilles heal' ;)

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure you're not talking about the actual 'heel'! :rofl:

Edited by LV-426
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LV-426

Not for the hetrosexual faint hearted i presume?

That would be a no, for people of any sexual persuasion to be honest.

I should actually have learned my lesson a few years back. I remember searching for an image to post on a forum, of a childhood toy 'Action Man.'

$_35.JPG

Needless to say that search turned up more than I bargained for too :cry:

Edited by LV-426
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