Refugees Begin Hunger Strike

[stevewinn]

Well the EU as voted through migrant quotas to resettle 120,000 people. - Anyone on here can see this is a drop in the ocean, and fixes nothing, in fact it will make matters worse. What is the result going to be when 5,000 refugees are told to gather their belongings board that EU Bus you are being shipped off to "Poland" When they want to be in Germany/Sweden. - We've already seen the violence used when the "refugees" are prevented from travelling to the country of THEIR choosing.

So once the "refugees" are shared out around the EU how are they going to be detained in their allotted countries? ship 5,000 to Poland are they going to remain there? what happens if they walk back to Germany? Does Germany then ship them back Poland. and continue repeating this process right across the EU?

The EU shows just once again how Crazy their policy is. 120,000 people, Yet we are told 5,000 migrants arrive in the EU every single day, that's 1.8+Million expected to arrive in Europe within 12 months. So its clear the problem is not solved. 460,000 are already in the EU according to the UN. You cannot help but feel the whole policy is typical EU political grandstanding at its best to make it look like the EU is in control and dealing with the problem. - truth is its the complete opposite. the numbers don't lie.

Question's are also raised over Democracy in the EU. - most people wont pay attention to how the vote was passed. But this Policy today gives us warning signs - How can we have a situation where the status of individual countries National sovereign borders is being determined by the EU. Four Eastern European countries, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania and Hungary voted against the quotas - But they've effectively had their self determination on their National Sovereignty decided for them by the EU. and if they don't follow what the EU has told them they will be fined by the EU, 0.2% of GDP. Then we have the vote itself the EU used the QMV voting system. a system in which the number of Votes is determined by the size of the Country. Germany and France's combined votes alone dwarf them of Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania and Hungary combined. So the vote was always going to be passed. - in response: Slovak PM Robert Fico. Reacting to the Brussels deal, he said migrant quotas will not be implemented in his country as long as he is prime minister, according to :Reuters.

Problems are going from bad to worse. Its time to sit back and watch the resulting train crash in the coming months.

Edited September 22, 2015 by stevewinn

[bmk1245]

[...]

So once the "refugees" are shared out around the EU how are they going to be detained in their allotted countries? ship 5,000 to Poland are they going to remain there? what happens if they walk back to Germany? Does Germany then ship them back Poland. and continue repeating this process right across the EU?

[...]

Either bye bye Shengen treaty, either pay them as much as they would earn in Sweded/Germany. I can't imagine, for example, Polish Ultras (whole army of animals, literally) being ok with latter...

[meryt-tetisheri]

Thats naive of you, the point is that people do take these cases and say all moslems are like that. They make it about religion. I read enough forums to know that all about people write is religion. It is only about Islam for most of teh people. (you even can read it in this thread -.-) Do you know why, because the majority of people in the west dont mind if someone is sexist, if he/she discriminates and do you know why thsi is because most christians are like that since they are raised by the bible and the bible and quoran have the same roots, they are naturally sexist and discriminating its the same in Europe its the same in Africa. For example if it was a christian who reacted like a macho and said he doesnt want to talk to a woman, then he would have been a sexist and th ignorant fools would never have made a connection between christianity and his behaviour, while christianity is as patriachal as islam is.

No, I am not being naive. A problem with your response is the tendency to over-generalize. You are building your opinion on the responses of people in forums, but what is their percentage of the general population? How representative are they, and with an international membership, of which society? The same questions apply to your statement about the 'majority' in the West being sexist, patriarchal & discriminatory. What is the informative role played by Christianity in the contemporary western societies and how influential is it? Is it the same in France, the UK, as in Louisiana, or Sweden? You have lumped different cultures, histories, and societal idiosyncrasies together and came up with one sweeping generalization. The same applies to Islam. Are Muslims from Bangladesh the same as Saudi Arabians, Tunisians, or Indonesians? If some jumped to the conclusion that Mohammed D., who refused to talk to women, did that because he is a Muslim, isn't this exactly what you are doing now? Regardless of your or my subjective opinions, beliefs or preferences, both the Quran and the Bible are elements of 'ideal' culture; how they are interpreted and practiced is part of the 'real' culture which differs from one society to the other, and from one historical period to the other. The real issue is not how people are praying, but adaptability, integration, and acceptance of the norms of the host culture. In the case of Islam, its image in the West has been largely hijacked and formed by an influential, loud faction which claims to represent it. The blame does not lay solely with those who can see only this image, or can hear nothing but the din of the extremists. Sorry, but as an anthropologist I have a difficulty accepting sweeping cultural factors under the rug.

I admit that some facts you state are true, but as I said in another post I am neither a fan of christianity or islam, nor I am a fan of patriachal cultures and fascisme and these things existed and can exist in the west. Not long a ago spain was a dictatorship and spain is stll very conservative and violent. It is true that the laws in the west are better than they are in most african countries, but socially europe it is not sacred place, for exampel if the right wing nuts gain power it will turn out to be pretty much the same as north africa, if additionally the economy crashes. You will see how they will prosecute non-christians, enforce anti gay laws and enforce anti- women laws. And european history has proven that many times.

I have said before that both 'East' and 'West' have their problems. Utopia exists no where. Though the right has been steadily gaining, I don't think they will succeed in turning the clock back to the Middle Ages, but there will be trouble if the economy crashes.

Anyway, all in all people make it about Islam thats what the politicians wanted to and thats what the people do. Fact is people are immigrating and Europe needs to handle it, by handling I dont mean closing borders and forcing them onto Greece, Turkey, Serbia and other ocuntries. By handling I dont mean letting them starve or attack children with pepper spray and teargas like slovenia and hungary, I mean providing camps where they get support and can register, while teh EU decides onto every indivudals status.

Camps? How well did that work for Palestinians since 1948? Camps will only create a chronic problem. The only solution is to go to the source of the problem in the case of Syrians. I still believe that the honorable thing to do for all these young men is to fight for their country, not flee. That leaves 49% of the refugees/migrants. With the continuous economic crisis, how well do you think Europe can handle such a huge influx of migrants? Where I live tax liberation day comes at the end of July, in other countries it's beginning August, at what point do you think the pain threshold will be reached? Can you fairly criticize the legitimate worry of European citizens when other countries are doing nothing? Not all source countries were bombed by the West (which is the favorite explanation of some), how far can the burden of Eritrea, Bangladesh, Nigeria..etc. be carried before a breaking point is reached? How can the future prospects of any of these countries be improved if immigration and brain drain continues?

Edit: women who flee often gets raped abuse and worse during their journey so I wonder whats more secure staying behind, where she has protection from friends and family and sending a male to the EU or "traveling" as a woman to the west.

​Raped by whom and where? How does that compare with beheading, gang rape, having a price ticket slapped on the wrist and sold publicly in a slave market, or being exchanged among 'comrades'? Where was the safety net of friends and family for these women? It is a fact that women in ISIS controlled areas face as much danger, if not more than men. I read an article about rape and forced prostitution in refugee camps but dismissed it as probably a biased report, now you are confirming it?

Edited September 22, 2015 by meryt-tetisheri

[Michelle]

Edit: women who flee often gets raped abuse and worse during their journey so I wonder whats more secure staying behind, where she has protection from friends and family and sending a male to the EU or "traveling" as a woman to the west.

So, this is the kind of men we are supposed to feel sorry for fleeing for their safety? Where women are not safe making the same journey without them abusing and or raping them? Are these the same men who are too tired and worn they couldn't be any trouble at all and people are supposed to accept with open arms?

[spud the mackem]

Maybe you would need to be arab to understand it i dont know but most arabs do live in a secular society and if i compare mine to yours the only difference is its name what you call law we call islam and ours means peace . we have everything you have there is no difference and if some people wish to hold on to certain believes then that might be for a good reason . i am making this statement with the exceptions of some arab nations where they apply strict rules but are being the most hypocrites . we have modernized islam but when i make a referrance to it its being called bs and lies ... no one wish to see what all those scholars are trying so hard to break old habbits that never had anything to do with islam in the first place . even them being attacked because they want to keep the people small and dumb . if they would invest the money that they invested in all the wars instead of education it would be far better . but we cant win no matter how hard we try we just cant .

I will consider the Arab nations civilised when they stop stoning women to death, and treating them as 2nd class citizens, and stop cutting hands off thieves,and stop taking pot shots at Sailors on the decks of ships passing through the Suez Canal.

I have read most of your posts with interest , but no where have you mention why you left your home Country and for what reason. and have you found it better where you are now or would you rather be back in the dusty streets of Morocco.

[141]

'YA AMAR', first this is a very nice name ; I am sorry you were ill and wish you the best of health.

I have been following your posts here, and though as an Egyptian I can better understand your position, yet allow me to play the devil's advocate as I disagree with some points you (and others) raised.

Several times you mentioned 'bashing' of Arabs & Muslims in the West, implying that this is the main motive/reason many are worried about the recent wave of migrants & asylum seekers. It is regrettable if you have experienced the bigotry of some at one point or the other. However, this is not a characteristic of people here, or Western societies in general. I have lived by now most of my life in Europe, married a European, have family and friends here, and not even once have I, or many others I know, experienced any instance of discrimination or prejudice. The increasing numbers of Muslims seeking residence here, even before 2011, would in itself be proof of the tolerance of Western societies

hello to you firstly , i wish to jump right in and say that page by page people say very mean things about muslims . Maybe my eyes fail me but i do read some pretty bad things here . Today a Moderator deleted someones post i will not say who it was or what it was but it was so bad that i believe if i had said anything like that i would have been banned . but here is another one you be the judge if this is nice : I agree. Unleash the full might of our decadent Western military machine and seed the sand with their ashes. Don't tie one arm behind our backs. No halfways here. No quarter. Fight a real war for once. Do not play fair. If islam isn't going to take care of "radical" islamists once and for all, then allow us to do it. Lets not forget i was married to an american and i lived in many parts of this world and i know how life is in Europe and in the USA and Asia . when i was living in America i lived mainly in California and it was a good place to be i call it my second home . But we got transferred to Bolling Air Force Base and my ex husband worked for the Pentagon and white house . i grew up mostly in america so i have a good vision of how things are . D.C. was one of the most criminal city ever and a lot of prejudice people white against black black against hispanic etc etc so i got my fair share due to my exotic look . i hear verses from '' who let them migrated here '' to jealous women who wanted to fight me on the street just because of envy . i have never seen such a crazy place . germany was worse but i must say germany is divided you have those who accept you and those who dont and they are pretty bold about it . i dont know where you live but be happy you never had to go through any bad situations . i for one i got tired of people making fun of my religion and i took it with ease but it gets hard from constant sexual approaches by men as it is accepted for them to talk vulgar to women . i could name so many things but what is the use . But you know i never forgot my roots and where i came from and i never pretend to be something that i was not . We all here on this thread never denied the issue of the immigrant and i know what most countries are already faced with . i cant even express with words what goes through my mind when i think what will be . there is biiiig concern rightfully so . None of us ever argued that point . but they are people and maybe you dont read all posts but i think its pretty hurtful to hear that others refer to them as a horde of muslims and predicting what they will do . they were promised a golden ticket by merkel if you have arab roots then you should know what that means for arabs you know their living conditions . you know in my country there are people who still go to rivers and wash their clothes there they have close to zero but they dont complain . in the western world they play lotto i think they call it that you know how much money goes into it ? every weekend ? but elsewhere people are suffering . i dont forget where i come from and i try my best to give a bit of humanity back .

Nevertheless, there are no cultures which are devoid of problems, neither East nor West. The Middle East is not Utopia. I can understand your emotional response to what you perceived as bias, but enumerating problems in the West did not address the question at all. Maybe alcoholism is not a problem in the ME, but we do do have serious social issues with addiction: from Qat in Yemen to cannabis in Ketama, passing by pills in Egypt! Juvenile delinquency, school drop out & higher illiteracy rates among women, unfair family laws, FGM, lenient laws for crimes against women...the list goes on. Glossing over problems means they will never be properly diagnosed nor addressed. Unless the cultural norms which dictate these problems are resolved, the ME will continue to stumble. Rape rates in USA have little or no bearing on the problems we are facing in the ME. The last straw, we now have ISIS, enslaving women & selling them in markets! You mentioned the 'Arab mentality' of men as providers travelling alone/ahead of the family, to support them; but this applies only in cases of immigration or temporary work, when the women and children are safe at home not when they are likely to be slaughtered or become sex slaves of a group of maniacs. In the case of asylum seekers, these women were abandoned to their fate, so are we talking about migrants or asylum seekers?

i have worked as a social worker in the USA and you say it has no bearing to the problems that we face in the ME ???? i beg to differ but thats not the issue right now but let me say one thing just because those things happening overseas in the so called civilized nation doesnt make it less terrible . because we hear it from a muslim country it must be more horrible . where i am from i dont have to worry getting approached in a bad way unless i wish it . isis is the big subject here and they are a serious threat not just to europe and america but for all of us and who ever takes a shut eye to that has little education about the whole issue . we all know what isis does but having worked for the military i could give you numerous stories what US Soldiers had to do in iraq lets not forget that either what people do in times of war . is one crime lesser because of nationality ??? its still a horrible crime . and to the arab mentality you say you come from egypt ? you should know how arab men think and treat their women then or am i wrong ? Men in our society try at least to provide and women must stay back and normally you see they send the sons out and that is what is happening right now .

Some facts need to be delineated to avoid confusion of the topic:

1) Of the 449, 421 who arrived by sea in 2015 only 51% are Syrians. The rest come from 10 other different countries (UNCHR http://data.unhcr.or...an/regional.php ) Hence, not all are running for their life from Syria or war torn countries

i fully agree with that ...no questions ask

2)More than 70% of the refugees are males, the largest group are men between 18-34

3) Hungary ranked third in Europe in "The number of asylum applicants and their relative importance (for example, their number in relation to the total resident population of the country where the application is lodged" (http://ec.europa.eu/...tat_information)

4) Europe is passing through a prolonged economic crisis, from banks 'which are too big to fail', to rising taxes, cost of living, unemployment etc. That European citizens are worried is neither a sign of bigotry nor selfishness, rather the inadequacy and ineptitude of governments. It is not about bashing Islam & ArabsWatch the video below to get a 'feel' of what the most vulnerable in Europe are passing through:

German government evict poor Germans from their homes"

i will go to germany in october i will investigate this issue

https://www.youtube....player_embedded

5) Out of the 2.1 million Syrians registered by UNCHR in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon only 24,000 are registered in North Africa, according to the map mostly in Libya. How many are registered in Algeria, Tunisia or Morocco? How many are welcomed in Saudi Arabia, Qatar (the 2 countries which funded the collapse and civil war of Syria), or Kuwait, Oman, UAE... Isn't "Al qarib awla bil ma3rouf"? Other than the fleeting intangible promises offered during a fit of their sincérité du moment, almost nothing

6) There is a problem of integration and willingness to adapt to the culture of the host country. An example is a Syrian driver who refused to cede passage at an intersection in Belgium, blocked city center traffic then refused to talk to the police officer because she was a woman. After being maced and pulled out of the car he still refused the service of the translator ay the prosecutor's office because once again, it was a woman. Finally he was taken to court. The judge turned out to be also a woman. No one knows if he finally talked to her or not; but she decided to keep him for a while . This is not because he's a Muslim, religion has nothing to do with it, idiocy does! Nevertheless, such incidents, even if only few, do scare some people. We are not talking about paying tourists who stay for a short while then leave, these are most likely permanent residents.

can you blame them that people have a hard time adapting , i think is normal some people specially the older generation are often very uneducated . Thats not to say they shouldnt learn they should try but things are embedded in them for all their lives . my fear is that it will clash , when i see the people in the UK how they scream behead the muslims but say with the same breath that muslims are radical . i fear what will happen as they probably make the slightest mistake and things will get ugly . and i say with pride that from all my experiences in this life my people are more tolerant about many things . and i wouldnt change for nothing to leave my country . i know where i come from and i never forget my roots .

Lastly, while the 70% men are seeking refuge instead of fighting, this mother of two and other women back in Syria are fighting without helmets, bullet proof vests, equipment etc, and died heroically for their country, and I am extremely proud of them (http://www.dailymail...stage-ISIS.html)

Edited September 22, 2015 by YA AMAR

[141]

I will consider the Arab nations civilised when they stop stoning women to death, and treating them as 2nd class citizens, and stop cutting hands off thieves,and stop taking pot shots at Sailors on the decks of ships passing through the Suez Canal.

I have read most of your posts with interest , but no where have you mention why you left your home Country and for what reason. and have you found it better where you are now or would you rather be back in the dusty streets of Morocco.

speak about morocco dusty roads ... well if you google you will see that morocco is very modern unless you go to the desert where my people are from . i am not in europe so dont worry but i did pay taxes in europe so i can go any time . and i do that every now and then . i will not argue the point that horrible things are not happening we here dont have sharia law but people need to fully understand the sharia law and what it takes till it goes into affect . i ask you ? why do you still have the death penalty ??? why is it that the crime rate is so high in most other countries ? women get raped , women get beaten , children get sexually abused much more often in any other country then in our country . i am against people being put to death through sharia or otherwise . there are a few countries that i frown upon myself and they need to step up and modernize to a certain extend i fully agree . violence in any shape or form is a bad thing . but i urge anyone to learn about sharia law . but as i said before other countries have same just in different form . you know for example in germany anyone who rapes a child go free , you can murder and do 10 years or plead insane and get out easy but when someone tries to cheat the government out of 5 euros all hell breaks lose . there need to be so much education in the ME i totally agree but with groups like isis and all before them i dont know how this problem can be solved . but i see the same here on this thread you show people that some muslims are much more modern i got called a liar . people will always just focus on the bad . and that really makes me sad .

Edited September 22, 2015 by YA AMAR

[141]

you see how you speak about morocco dusty roads ... well if you google you will see that morocco is very modern unless you go to the desert where my people are from . i am not in europe so dont worry but i did pay taxes in europe so i can go any time . and i do that every now and then . i will not argue the point that horrible things are not happening we here dont have sharia law but people need to fully understand the sharia law and what it takes till it goes into affect . i ask you ? why do you still have the death penalty ??? why is it that the crime rate is so high in most other countries ? women get raped , women get beaten , children get sexually abused much more often in any other country then in our country . i am against people being put to death through sharia or otherwise . there are a few countries that i frown upon myself and they need to step up and modernize to a certain extend i fully agree . violence in any shape or form is a bad thing . but i urge anyone to learn about sharia law . but as i said before other countries have same just in different form . you know for example in germany anyone who rapes a child go free , you can murder and do 10 years or plead insane and get out easy but when someone tries to cheat the government out of 5 euros all hell breaks lose . there need to be so much education in the ME i totally agree but with groups like isis and all before them i dont know how this problem can be solved . but i see the same here on this thread you show people that some muslims are much more modern i got called a liar . people will always just focus on the bad . and that really makes me sad .

the reason why i left my home country is very personal and a very hurtful chapter of my life that i will not post here as it is not of relevance . i came back here to the maghrib where i belong and hope to god will die here . hope you can at least understand that

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

You know what I'm finding interesting bout this thread?

How the group dynamics have changed, people normally so ideologically divided are siding with each other, while their usual allies are on the "other side" of the debate.

[Michelle]

You know what I'm finding interesting bout this thread?

How the group dynamics have changed, people normally so ideologically divided are siding with each other, while their usual allies are on the "other side" of the debate.

I noticed that too!

[Wickian]

You know what I'm finding interesting bout this thread?

How the group dynamics have changed, people normally so ideologically divided are siding with each other, while their usual allies are on the "other side" of the debate.

There's no such thing as a perfect liberal/conservative. We all have topics that we agree with the "other side" on from time to time.

[141]

'YA AMAR', first this is a very nice name ; I am sorry you were ill and wish you the best of health.

I have been following your posts here, and though as an Egyptian I can better understand your position, yet allow me to play the devil's advocate as I disagree with some points you (and others) raised.

Several times you mentioned 'bashing' of Arabs & Muslims in the West, implying that this is the main motive/reason many are worried about the recent wave of migrants & asylum seekers. It is regrettable if you have experienced the bigotry of some at one point or the other. However, this is not a characteristic of people here, or Western societies in general. I have lived by now most of my life in Europe, married a European, have family and friends here, and not even once have I, or many others I know, experienced any instance of discrimination or prejudice. The increasing numbers of Muslims seeking residence here, even before 2011, would in itself be proof of the tolerance of Western societies.

Nevertheless, there are no cultures which are devoid of problems, neither East nor West. The Middle East is not Utopia. I can understand your emotional response to what you perceived as bias, but enumerating problems in the West did not address the question at all. Maybe alcoholism is not a problem in the ME, but we do do have serious social issues with addiction: from Qat in Yemen to cannabis in Ketama, passing by pills in Egypt! Juvenile delinquency, school drop out & higher illiteracy rates among women, unfair family laws, FGM, lenient laws for crimes against women...the list goes on. Glossing over problems means they will never be properly diagnosed nor addressed. Unless the cultural norms which dictate these problems are resolved, the ME will continue to stumble. Rape rates in USA have little or no bearing on the problems we are facing in the ME. The last straw, we now have ISIS, enslaving women & selling them in markets! You mentioned the 'Arab mentality' of men as providers travelling alone/ahead of the family, to support them; but this applies only in cases of immigration or temporary work, when the women and children are safe at home not when they are likely to be slaughtered or become sex slaves of a group of maniacs. In the case of asylum seekers, these women were abandoned to their fate, so are we talking about migrants or asylum seekers?.

Some facts need to be delineated to avoid confusion of the topic:

1) Of the 449, 421 who arrived by sea in 2015 only 51% are Syrians. The rest come from 10 other different countries (UNCHR http://data.unhcr.or...an/regional.php ) Hence, not all are running for their life from Syria or war torn countries

2)More than 70% of the refugees are males, the largest group are men between 18-34

3) Hungary ranked third in Europe in "The number of asylum applicants and their relative importance (for example, their number in relation to the total resident population of the country where the application is lodged" (http://ec.europa.eu/...tat_information)

4) Europe is passing through a prolonged economic crisis, from banks 'which are too big to fail', to rising taxes, cost of living, unemployment etc. That European citizens are worried is neither a sign of bigotry nor selfishness, rather the inadequacy and ineptitude of governments. It is not about bashing Islam & ArabsWatch the video below to get a 'feel' of what the most vulnerable in Europe are passing through:

German government evict poor Germans from their homes"

https://www.youtube....player_embedded

5) Out of the 2.1 million Syrians registered by UNCHR in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon only 24,000 are registered in North Africa, according to the map mostly in Libya. How many are registered in Algeria, Tunisia or Morocco? How many are welcomed in Saudi Arabia, Qatar (the 2 countries which funded the collapse and civil war of Syria), or Kuwait, Oman, UAE... Isn't "Al qarib awla bil ma3rouf"? Other than the fleeting intangible promises offered during a fit of their sincérité du moment, almost nothing

6) There is a problem of integration and willingness to adapt to the culture of the host country. An example is a Syrian driver who refused to cede passage at an intersection in Belgium, blocked city center traffic then refused to talk to the police officer because she was a woman. After being maced and pulled out of the car he still refused the service of the translator ay the prosecutor's office because once again, it was a woman. Finally he was taken to court. The judge turned out to be also a woman. No one knows if he finally talked to her or not; but she decided to keep him for a while . This is not because he's a Muslim, religion has nothing to do with it, idiocy does! Nevertheless, such incidents, even if only few, do scare some people. We are not talking about paying tourists who stay for a short while then leave, these are most likely permanent residents.

Lastly, while the 70% men are seeking refuge instead of fighting, this mother of two and other women back in Syria are fighting without helmets, bullet proof vests, equipment etc, and died heroically for their country, and I am extremely proud of them (http://www.dailymail...stage-ISIS.html)

sorry i forgot to mention thank you very much for the well wishes ...i forgot to add that so thank you from the heart

Edited September 22, 2015 by YA AMAR

[141]

I will consider the Arab nations civilised when they stop stoning women to death, and treating them as 2nd class citizens, and stop cutting hands off thieves,and stop taking pot shots at Sailors on the decks of ships passing through the Suez Canal.

I have read most of your posts with interest , but no where have you mention why you left your home Country and for what reason. and have you found it better where you are now or would you rather be back in the dusty streets of Morocco.

my english is not that great so could you please be so kind and explain the meaning of '' taking pot shots '' i dont understand this term

[meryt-tetisheri]

It seems that some points need clarification. I am under the impression that you have questions about "my roots", whether I "forgot" them, or whether I am aware of Arab culture and poverty in the Middle East. Without going too much into personal details, I am 100% Egyptian; I have not lost touch with my roots. Doing field work, I have experienced first-hand the poverty and lack which exist in some villages which are even poorer than the ones you referred to in Morocco. I have lived in a North African country for 6 years, and I have earned a degree about the problems of integration of second and third generation immigrants. Our opinions may differ, we disagree, but please credit me with honesty and having some idea about what I am talking about. I was sincere when I told you I understand how you may emotionally respond to the topic. However, unless one tries to be as objective as possible, a discussion can easily deteriorate to an argument or a shouting match. My objection to your bringing up rape, sexual harassment and social problems in the West has two folds. I believe that veering into what some may take as a "pot calling kettle black" is counterproductive and obscures the issue. On the other hand, it also minimizes the gravity of the very real problems of gender based violence in ME, including both Egypt & Morocco. The case of Amina Filali comes to mind, and unfortunately article 475 of the Moroccan penal code is not an exception in Arab countries. The reason VAW seems less in the East than the West is largely due to underreporting, the taboo attached to sexual issues, values attaching family honor to female sexuality, and the tendency to attach blame to the victim " where i am from i dont have to worry getting approached in a bad way unless i wish it" .

Back on topic, integration does not mean 'forgetting where one comes from' or sacrificing one's 'roots', rather adapting to, and adopting the main norms and values of the culture the migrants chose to live in. Attempting to recreate and confining oneself to a small bubble Syria, Egypt,Nigeria or whatever in the host country only leads to alienation & social marginalization (ghettoization), and it is the migrants-particularly the second and third generations- who pay the heaviest price. For the host culture they might be regarded as a threat to social cohesion and cultural identity. The anger and harsh words you witnessed here are only symptoms of that. An illustration of this view is what someone once told me "they don't want us, they want our money". Responsibility for such attitudes lies on both sides, not just one. Painting one side all black, the other all rosy, using generalizations, further neither understanding nor solutions; you are a professional social worker so I am sure you are aware of that, so sorry for stating the obvious but it needed to be said. I have already expressed my opinion about the economic and political aspects when responding to hellwyr, you read all posts in this thread so I will not bore you by repeating myself. At the end, let us agree to disagree

PS you mentioned that "it gets hard from constant sexual approaches by men as it is accepted for them to talk vulgar to women ".

Harassment is definitely neither acceptable nor legal in Germany, you should have reported them

[Likely Guy]

my english is not that great so could you please be so kind and explain the meaning of '' taking pot shots '' i dont understand this term

A 'pot shot' is a shot from a firearm taken from a very long distance, or with very little accuracy attempted. Basically a shot taken with no real hope of actually hitting the 'target'.

Hope that helps.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Likely Guy

[141]

It seems that some points need clarification. I am under the impression that you have questions about "my roots", whether I "forgot" them, or whether I am aware of Arab culture and poverty in the Middle East. Without going too much into personal details, I am 100% Egyptian; I have not lost touch with my roots. Doing field work, I have experienced first-hand the poverty and lack which exist in some villages which are even poorer than the ones you referred to in Morocco. I have lived in a North African country for 6 years, and I have earned a degree about the problems of integration of second and third generation immigrants. Our opinions may differ, we disagree, but please credit me with honesty and having some idea about what I am talking about. I was sincere when I told you I understand how you may emotionally respond to the topic. However, unless one tries to be as objective as possible, a discussion can easily deteriorate to an argument or a shouting match. My objection to your bringing up rape, sexual harassment and social problems in the West has two folds. I believe that veering into what some may take as a "pot calling kettle black" is counterproductive and obscures the issue. On the other hand, it also minimizes the gravity of the very real problems of gender based violence in ME, including both Egypt & Morocco. The case of Amina Filali comes to mind, and unfortunately article 475 of the Moroccan penal code is not an exception in Arab countries. The reason VAW seems less in the East than the West is largely due to underreporting, the taboo attached to sexual issues, values attaching family honor to female sexuality, and the tendency to attach blame to the victim " where i am from i dont have to worry getting approached in a bad way unless i wish it" .

Back on topic, integration does not mean 'forgetting where one comes from' or sacrificing one's 'roots', rather adapting to, and adopting the main norms and values of the culture the migrants chose to live in. Attempting to recreate and confining oneself to a small bubble Syria, Egypt,Nigeria or whatever in the host country only leads to alienation & social marginalization (ghettoization), and it is the migrants-particularly the second and third generations- who pay the heaviest price. For the host culture they might be regarded as a threat to social cohesion and cultural identity. The anger and harsh words you witnessed here are only symptoms of that. An illustration of this view is what someone once told me "they don't want us, they want our money". Responsibility for such attitudes lies on both sides, not just one. Painting one side all black, the other all rosy, using generalizations, further neither understanding nor solutions; you are a professional social worker so I am sure you are aware of that, so sorry for stating the obvious but it needed to be said. I have already expressed my opinion about the economic and political aspects when responding to hellwyr, you read all posts in this thread so I will not bore you by repeating myself. At the end, let us agree to disagree

PS you mentioned that "it gets hard from constant sexual approaches by men as it is accepted for them to talk vulgar to women ".

Harassment is definitely neither acceptable nor legal in Germany, you should have reported them

i think you have misunderstood my words as we are writing and not talking and you took what i say out of context and you quickly assumed . i talk about myself and how i feel from my heart . if other people feel national pride so can i . unlike what most people believe i am not into shouting matches i just voice my opinion just like everyone else does . what one member have said to me in a post was beyond and i saw i got edited but everyone gets the right to use hate speech but i have never attacked anyone and even if i had tried to make a joke here and there people take it bad . i see how it is . but i will not let people rain down on me because i am muslim . i could have hidden that fact and pretend but i am honest and i follow my religion . the whole issue started because some of us believed to be civil with these people because it is what it is instead of callig them names or predicting the future . and the country that faced those people without prejudgment setting aside fear was croatia . and at this point i am tired of discussing this issue, same complaints and no solutions but it is what it is . if you felt personally attacked then i feel sorry but unlike others and you wouldnt know because words are written , i am not a angry person . i get emotional yes but hardly i get angry and thats the difference between many of us ...

[141]

A 'pot shot' is a shot from a firearm taken from a very long distance, or with very little accuracy attempted. Basically a shot taken with no real hope of actually hitting the 'target'.

Hope that helps.

thank you for explaining

[meryt-tetisheri]

i think you have misunderstood my words as we are writing and not talking and you took what i say out of context and you quickly assumed . i talk about myself and how i feel from my heart . if other people feel national pride so can i . unlike what most people believe i am not into shouting matches i just voice my opinion just like everyone else does . what one member have said to me in a post was beyond and i saw i got edited but everyone gets the right to use hate speech but i have never attacked anyone and even if i had tried to make a joke here and there people take it bad . i see how it is . but i will not let people rain down on me because i am muslim . i could have hidden that fact and pretend but i am honest and i follow my religion . the whole issue started because some of us believed to be civil with these people because it is what it is instead of callig them names or predicting the future . and the country that faced those people without prejudgment setting aside fear was croatia . and at this point i am tired of discussing this issue, same complaints and no solutions but it is what it is . if you felt personally attacked then i feel sorry but unlike others and you wouldnt know because words are written , i am not a angry person . i get emotional yes but hardly i get angry and thats the difference between many of us ...

No harm no foul YA AMAR, this is a discussion board

[Crabby Kitten]

I believe that real genuin families with children need help. NOT the crowds of angry single men.

[Likely Guy]

No harm no foul YA AMAR, this is a discussion board

I now live in a tiny little town (population: 350), remote from the world's activities and I appreciate the discourse.

We now have a few Cambodians, some Chinese placer miners and a small Fillipino contingent. All told, there's about 20 or so. I wish there were more.

How boring it would be that everyone is the same as you.

[Likely Guy]

I believe that real genuin families with children need help. NOT the crowds of angry single men.

Yes, the families with children were left behind in the refugee camps as they couldn't make the trip. Who are the 'angry single men' again?, I missed that part.

[meryt-tetisheri]

I now live in a tiny little town (population: 350), remote from the world's activities and I appreciate the discourse.

We now have a few Cambodians, some Chinese placer miners and a small Fillipino contingent. All told, there's about 20 or so. I wish there were more.

How boring it would be that everyone is the same as you.

Yes, diversity can be very enriching, as long as a certain degree of cultural harmony is achieved

[141]

No harm no foul YA AMAR, this is a discussion board

agreed ...

[bmk1245]

ALDE requests nuclear option over Hungary

The liberal ALDE group in the European Parliament called on Monday (21 September) for the activation of article 7 of the EU Treaty against Hungary over its handling of refugees.

The punishment, sometimes referred to as "the nuclear bomb", has never been used before.

[...]

Read more...

So, Hungary, open all gates and let everyone pass through... And watch A.Merkel climb highest tree, screaming and tearing hairs...

Edited September 23, 2015 by bmk1245

[Crabby Kitten]

Yes, the families with children were left behind in the refugee camps as they couldn't make the trip. Who are the 'angry single men' again?, I missed that part.

The large crowds of men of a similar fighting age.