Leonardo Posted September 19, 2015 #51 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Helen, and any German posters here along with any Muslims, I sincerely apologise for the ignorance of some of my fellow UK residents. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted September 19, 2015 #52 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Helen, and any German posters here along with any Muslims, I sincerely apologise for the ignorance of some of my fellow UK residents. I don't think its ignorance. People wanna defend their cultural values. Otherwise lets do away with borders, language, flags and national identity and make a new law whereby if you can reach another country you automatically become a citizen of that country. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted September 19, 2015 #53 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Send them to Wales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 19, 2015 #54 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Helen, and any German posters here along with any Muslims, I sincerely apologise for the ignorance of some of my fellow UK residents. I apologise to you for being overly rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip UK Posted September 19, 2015 #55 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I don't think its ignorance. People wanna defend their cultural values. Otherwise lets do away with borders, language, flags and national identity and make a new law whereby if you can reach another country you automatically become a citizen of that country. Welcome to the New World Order, where national self-preservation is now a hate crime. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorvir Posted September 19, 2015 #56 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I don't think its ignorance. People wanna defend their cultural values. Otherwise lets do away with borders, language, flags and national identity and make a new law whereby if you can reach another country you automatically become a citizen of that country. Are you kidding? That's exactly what the likes of those you're responding to want to happen. No borders, no language, no flags, no national identity...everyone exactly the same. No inspiration, no aspirations, no individualism...no freedom. Great place, this utopia they want, isn't it? I'll pass on that, thanks. I like being a human being and not sheep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 19, 2015 #57 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Screw your identity if it can be erased. My nation's identity - among many other nations' identites - survived centuries of horrors unthinkable to our generations. If any of you loses their identity, it means you weren't up to it anyway. I know I'm not losing mine. That invader, politician or banker who could change me wasn't born yet. I don't have to hate others to prove how much I value my own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted September 19, 2015 #58 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Welcome to the New World Order, where national self-preservation is now a hate crime. I used to joke about this New World Order stuff with friends telling them to wrap their heads in tin foil. I guess they were right and i wrong and the jokes on me. This New World Order is NO joke let me tell you. Nationhood is being eroded and replaced with the rise of corporations and business interests. Look at what Merkel is doing. She is slowly destroying what it is to be European all for the sake of future European economic dominance for Germany. And if that's what the Germans want then fine by me. Let them send transport planes and ships to Syria directly and move the entire nation, jihadists and all, directly to Germany... but don't drag the rest of Europe into Germany's folly. Merkel is not Europe's bloody queen. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted September 19, 2015 #59 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Screw your identity if it can be erased. My nation's identity - among many other nations' identites - survived centuries of horrors unthinkable to our generations. If any of you loses their identity, it means you weren't up to it anyway. I know I'm not losing mine. That invader, politician or banker who could change me wasn't born yet. I don't have to hate others to prove how much I value my own. The reason you even have your current identity and culture is cause the people you inherited from decided that they wanted to keep theirs and not surrender lock stock and barrel every time a new peoples and culture decided to boggie on in. If its the Syrian culture and identity you crave then off you go to Syria my dear... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 19, 2015 #60 Share Posted September 19, 2015 The reason you even have your current identity and culture is cause the people you inherited from decided that they wanted to keep theirs and not surrender lock stock and barrel every time a new peoples and culture decided to boggie on in. If its the Syrian culture and identity you crave then off you go to Syria my dear... Actually, I'm one of the people who decided to keep their identity not just while it was suppressed and renouncing it rewarded, but also in times when it was physically dangerous to keep it. So you don't get to preach me how national identity is kept. Therefore, I'll repeat it for you: if you can lose yours, you were not worth it anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted September 19, 2015 #61 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) I don't think its ignorance. People wanna defend their cultural values. Otherwise lets do away with borders, language, flags and national identity and make a new law whereby if you can reach another country you automatically become a citizen of that country. Which cultural values you are talking about, there is teh law and there are social rules. And every group has different social rules like christians tend to be conservative and closmided, there are liberals, there are hippies, there are all kinds of people. The law which is based on the enlightment wont change if more religous nuts enter the country. If you think that me and others consider the values which the right wings try to defend ours then you are very wrong, so please dont talk about values O.o Edited September 19, 2015 by hellwyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 19, 2015 #62 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) My identity doesn't rely on what piece of land I happen to be standing on, it is who I am. I don't particularly consider myself a citizen of any nation, I just happen to live in the UK. Sure, I support a British football team and I like the UK and most of the people who live here. If other people wished to bring harm to those people I would stand and fight to help protect them - but the idea of "nation" means little to me except as being a way we separate ourselves from one another. I am not "British", or "European", I am who I am just as all other people are who they are. If others want to label themselves as 'belonging' to some tribal entity as if they granted that entity possession over them then that is their prerogative, but it is not what I seek. I understand this might sound pretentious, and perhaps it is, but I believe in the freedom of the individual not the (to me) false comfort of the herd. Edited September 19, 2015 by Leonardo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted September 19, 2015 #63 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I understand this might sound pretentious, and perhaps it is, but I believe in the freedom of the individual not the (to me) false comfort of the herd. not a fan of religious indoctrination then . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 19, 2015 #64 Share Posted September 19, 2015 My identity doesn't rely on what piece of land I happen to be standing on, it is who I am. I don't particularly consider myself a citizen of any nation, I just happen to live in the UK. Sure, I support a British football team and I like the UK and most of the people who live here. If other people wished to bring harm to those people I would stand and fight to help protect them - but the idea of "nation" means little to me except as being a way we separate ourselves from one another. I am not "British", or "European", I am who I am just as all other people are who they are. If others want to label themselves as 'belonging' to some tribal entity as if they granted that entity possession over them then that is their prerogative, but it is not what I seek. I understand this might sound pretentious, and perhaps it is, but I believe in the freedom of the individual not the (to me) false comfort of the herd. I'm tribal but I like the way you think. Especially the part about false comfort of the herd. For some of us, tribalism comes out of care, sense of responsibility for the family. For others, it's just that, that false comfort. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted September 19, 2015 #65 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Which cultural values you are talking about, there is teh law and there are social rules. And every group has different social rules like christians tend to be conservative and closmided, there are liberals, there are hippies, there are all kinds of people. The law which is based on the enlightment wont change if more religous nuts enter the country. If you think that me and others consider the values which the right wings try to defend ours then you are very wrong, so please dont talk about values O.o The only reason you can afford to think like that is cause you have the benefit of freedom of expression something you won't find in Syria or anywhere else in the Middle East. What you're advocating is that we fill it with people that care zero for our values and solely look at coming to Europe as a financial move. Example we can can use satire, jokes and ridicule our faith we can question our faith and segregating it from society but heaven forbid we ask the same of our new citizens from Syria. In fact lets talk about that for a moment... the majority aren't even from Syria they are from other country's. But we are bombarded with images of sadness and guilt like its our fault that these people have given up on their own country. These single men should go back to their home country's and change their country instead of trying to change me and my values and identity. Edited September 19, 2015 by Harry_Dresden 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 19, 2015 #66 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) not a fan of religious indoctrination then . Ha! You could say that. I don't mean that I am not sociable, it is just that I believe people shouldn't limit themselves to living in "boxes" such as 'nationality', etc. Helen, I'm tribal but I like the way you think. Especially the part about false comfort of the herd. For some of us, tribalism comes out of care, sense of responsibility for the family. For others, it's just that, that false comfort. Placing restrictions on yourself out of a sense of responsibility is not wrong, and I respect those who accept their responsibilities. It is perhaps too deep a topic to be able to properly expand my thoughts in just a couple of paragraphs, and I did not mean that considering yourself part of a group was necessarily a bad thing. But boxing yourself into a 'label' so much that you reject others just because they wear a different label is, imo, definitely 'wrong'. Edited September 19, 2015 by Leonardo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted September 19, 2015 #67 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Actually, I'm one of the people who decided to keep their identity not just while it was suppressed and renouncing it rewarded, but also in times when it was physically dangerous to keep it. So you don't get to preach me how national identity is kept. Therefore, I'll repeat it for you: if you can lose yours, you were not worth it anyway. Oh i won't lose mine but id like to think that i can give the same choice to those that follow me instead of having them just accept whats in front of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted September 19, 2015 #68 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Ha! You could say that. I don't mean that I am not sociable, it is just that I believe people shouldn't limit themselves to living in "boxes" such as 'nationality', etc. I presume that 'etc' means compulsory religion...? . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 19, 2015 #69 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Oh i won't lose mine but id like to think that i can give the same choice to those that follow me instead of having them just accept whats in front of them. We can't stop people moving around today. I mean, we could, but it would be boring, insane and inbred in just few decades of walls. I don't think we're that weak we should fear migrations uncontrollably. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 19, 2015 #70 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I presume that 'etc' means compulsory religion...? . I don't believe there is any such thing as "compulsory religion", or "compulsory nationality" or "compulsory any-other-of-the-boxes-we-put-ourselves-in". All of those things are by choice. Sure, sometimes the alternative choice is not very pleasant, sometimes it might even be fatal, but it is still a choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted September 19, 2015 #71 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) The only reason you can afford to think like that is cause you have the benefit of freedom of expression something you won't find in Syria or anywhere else in the Middle East. What you're advocating is that we fill it with people that care zero for our values and solely look at coming to Europe as a financial move. Example we can can use satire, jokes and ridicule our faith we can question our faith and segregating it from society but heaven forbid we ask the same of our new citizens from Syria. In fact lets talk about that for a moment... the majority aren't even from Syria they are from other country's. But we are bombarded with images of sadness and guilt like its our fault that these people have given up on their own country. These single men should go back to their home country's and change their country instead of trying to change me and my values and identity. 1. there are enough people in western countries who wish an autocratic leadership, who defend their values, which consist of denieng homosexuals their rights making, one religion the state religion and living the so called conservative life. I dont see how the refugees pose a greater threat than them. 2. Just recently there were many fascist regimes in Europe, the people who fought for freedom (that includes the personal freedom to believe in what you want) and equality were people from the left, mostly femenists, atheists, liberals...etc and not conservatives 3. Its the right wing people who are talking about defending their values and their values arent far off from the values the dictators in islamic countries have. 4. If the religion and belives of your neighbors can change your identity you should look into yourself and ask yourself who you are. Edited September 19, 2015 by hellwyr 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted September 19, 2015 #72 Share Posted September 19, 2015 http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/604964/David-Cameron-under-fire-EU-army-stance It emerged yesterday that policy officials in Mrs Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union party had drawn up a 10-point plan for EU military cooperation.The document calls for a permanent headquarters, joint procurement of equipment and a shared doctrine. The document said: “In the long run, this process should, according to the present German coalition agreement, lead also to a European army subject to parliament control.” That seems like bad timing....shared doctrine...? Never mind an EU army - Merkel will be lucky if there is still the EU after the migrant chaos that she has a lot of direct responsibility for... with the borders open borders closed chaos after INVITING hundreds of thousands/millions of refugee/migrants into a Europe that is not united and can't cope with them... . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted September 19, 2015 #73 Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Send them to Wales YOU MONSTER!! Don't you think they've suffered enough! Edited September 19, 2015 by Sir Wearer of Hats 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted September 19, 2015 #74 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I don't believe there is any such thing as "compulsory religion", or "compulsory nationality" or "compulsory any-other-of-the-boxes-we-put-ourselves-in". All of those things are by choice. Sure, sometimes the alternative choice is not very pleasant, sometimes it might even be fatal, but it is still a choice. High ideals indeed..... not very realistic though... . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 19, 2015 #75 Share Posted September 19, 2015 High ideals indeed..... not very realistic though... . . Ideals don't have to be realistic, or reachable, they just have to be something we aspire to in the hope of improving ourselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts