Croatia closes border crossings with Serbia

[Grey Area]

Not sure where exactly all the fear of Islam comes from here. Some reasonably naive and possibly ignorant views being expressed across a number of threads at the moment.

I work in an area of birmingham that has a majority Muslim community and a large migrant population. I take my lunch in this area almost every day I am in the office and am always treated with respect, and not once have I ever seen any attempt at preaching or conversion. Sure there is a mosque, it's opposite a church, there's two more churches on the same road and a Kingdom Hall and several small evangelical churches.

The community on the whole are respectful and well integrated. The local store sells all the normal western stuff as well as some of the more traditional things from the Middle East and Asia, and a truck load of rice. It's a pretty deprived area and doesn't look too inviting, but that is not a consequence of migration or the Islamic population, but the councils lack of funds. White people I that area are rare, but I think more so because of their ignorance than anything else.

I admit there are problems within these communities but they are generally cultural rather than religious. But this is something we have seen before and no doubt will see again, and the second and third generations generally are fully integrated.

I'm not making a statement about the immigration crisis, that is another thing entirely, but I do not believe this is a problem with religion at least it shouldn't be, but people keep raising it and that makes it an issue. Why in our country of tolerance and democracy should we be making an issue over who our neighbours pray to?

The only issue I have is that there is nowhere local that sells bacon sarnies

Edited September 20, 2015 by Grey Area

[Harry_Dresden]

Not sure where exactly all the fear of Islam comes from here. Some reasonably naive and possibly ignorant views being expressed across a number of threads at the moment.

I work in an area of birmingham that has a majority Muslim community and a large migrant population. I take my lunch in this area almost every day I am in the office and am always treated with respect, and not once have I ever seen any attempt at preaching or conversion. Sure there is a mosque, it's opposite a church, there's two more churches on the same road and a Kingdom Hall and several small evangelical churches.

The community on the whole are respectful and well integrated. The local store sells all the normal western stuff as well as some of the more traditional things from the Middle East and Asia, and a truck load of rice. It's a pretty deprived area and doesn't look too inviting, but that is not a consequence of migration or the Islamic population, but the councils lack of funds. White people I that area are rare, but I think more so because of their ignorance than anything else.

I admit there are problems within these communities but they are generally cultural rather than religious. But this is something we have seen before and no doubt will see again, and the second and third generations generally are fully integrated.

I'm not making a statement about the immigration crisis, that is another thing entirely, but I do not believe this is a problem with religion at least it shouldn't be, but people keep raising it and that makes it an issue. Why in our country of tolerance and democracy should we be making an issue over who our neighbours pray to?

The only issue I have is that there is nowhere local that sells bacon sarnies

The fear comes from the fact that citizens from Western nations don't want their nations developing along the lines of the Middle East.

It's got nothing to do with racism or xenophobia... but everything to do with the followers of a religion that just don't seem to be compromising. We live in a secular society and i don't see why there needs to be two sets of standards and rules of the people.

[Thorvir]

Not sure where exactly all the fear of Islam comes from here. Some reasonably naive and possibly ignorant views being expressed across a number of threads at the moment.

Because it's part of the problem. ISIS isn't run by atheists after all.

I work in an area of birmingham that has a majority Muslim community and a large migrant population. I take my lunch in this area almost every day I am in the office and am always treated with respect, and not once have I ever seen any attempt at preaching or conversion. Sure there is a mosque, it's opposite a church, there's two more churches on the same road and a Kingdom Hall and several small evangelical churches.

Hey, great to read! Just don't pretend that your example is representative of the rest of the world.

The community on the whole are respectful and well integrated. The local store sells all the normal western stuff as well as some of the more traditional things from the Middle East and Asia, and a truck load of rice. It's a pretty deprived area and doesn't look too inviting, but that is not a consequence of migration or the Islamic population, but the councils lack of funds. White people I that area are rare, but I think more so because of their ignorance than anything else.

Again, great to read and very comforting to know that you're having such a good go at it.

I admit there are problems within these communities but they are generally cultural rather than religious. But this is something we have seen before and no doubt will see again, and the second and third generations generally are fully integrated.

Which is good, if those generations can be reached. But what's happening with this islamist migration threatens the national identities of those countries being overrun.

I'm not making a statement about the immigration crisis, that is another thing entirely, but I do not believe this is a problem with religion at least it shouldn't be, but people keep raising it and that makes it an issue. Why in our country of tolerance and democracy should we be making an issue over who our neighbours pray to?

Because it is part of the problem. I'm not hating, I don't do that, just pointing out facts.

The only issue I have is that there is nowhere local that sells bacon sarnies

Those monsters! j/k...

Edited September 20, 2015 by Thorvir Hrothgaard

[Grey Area]

The fear comes from the fact that citizens from Western nations don't want their nations developing along the lines of the Middle East.

It's got nothing to do with racism or xenophobia... but everything to do with the followers of a religion that just don't seem to be compromising. We live in a secular society and i don't see why there needs to be two sets of standards and rules of the people.

It's not xenophobia? It's something... Where 98% of muslims in this country get on fine and for the most part would consider themselves Patriots and subject to the law of the land. Of course it's not racism, Islam is a religion.

We certainly do not live in a secular society, with the queen being head of the Church of England and senior c of e positions having automatic seats in the House of Lords, you may look out your window and see a few people In strange attire but rest assured, good old Christian values still run this country.

[kartikg]

It's not xenophobia? It's something... Where 98% of muslims in this country get on fine and for the most part would consider themselves Patriots and subject to the law of the land. Of course it's not racism, Islam is a religion.

We certainly do not live in a secular society, with the queen being head of the Church of England and senior c of e positions having automatic seats in the House of Lords, you may look out your window and see a few people In strange attire but rest assured, good old Christian values still run this country.

That's expected and will slowly change, but it should not be changed to run on Islamic or any other values which is totally foreign and might wreck havoc.

[Grey Area]

Because it's part of the problem. ISIS isn't run by atheists after all.

So then it is ISIS that are the problem not Islam. There are plenty of radical Christian movements, not to mention the Protestant vs Catholic argument that has plagued Northern Ireland for decades, so do we fear our dear Christian flocks?

Hey, great to read! Just don't pretend that your example is representative of the rest of the world.

I think it is representative of the attitude of most Muslims who come to the UK or who are born in the UK. the main reason these communities are segregated is because people don't make an effort to understand them, that and the convoluted socio-economics involved in population dispersion.

Again, great to read and very comforting to know that you're having such a good go at it.

Well it's not hard, they are people you just talk and interact normally.

Which is good, if those generations can be reached. But what's happening with this islamist migration threatens the national identities of those countries being overrun.

There's the fear again. Our national identity may become one of multi-culturalism and multiple faiths, so what's new?

Because it is part of the problem. I'm not hating, I don't do that, just pointing out facts.

Yes but the only reason this is a problem because people are making it one. I've not seen anything about these migrants demanding freedom of religion. All I have heard on this matter is people on these boards saying they are going to come here and build mosques. And maybe a few might pop up, just another building. But it doesn't really matter anyway because no self respecting UK native would ever venture into the areas where these things would be built, save to maybe drive through and tut at the eyesore. Are we so afraid of Islam that when a building where people go to pray and receive spiritual counselling becomes some sort of object of hate? Because if that is the case I am rather ashamed of my country, it's like the Tudors revisited. But at least Henry did it for sex.

Those monsters! j/k...

Yeah that's the one thing I really don't understand, imagine going your whole life never having had bacon, poor sods!

[141]

So then it is ISIS that are the problem not Islam. There are plenty of radical Christian movements, not to mention the Protestant vs Catholic argument that has plagued Northern Ireland for decades, so do we fear our dear Christian flocks?

I think it is representative of the attitude of most Muslims who come to the UK or who are born in the UK. the main reason these communities are segregated is because people don't make an effort to understand them, that and the convoluted socio-economics involved in population dispersion.

Well it's not hard, they are people you just talk and interact normally.

There's the fear again. Our national identity may become one of multi-culturalism and multiple faiths, so what's new?

Yes but the only reason this is a problem because people are making it one. I've not seen anything about these migrants demanding freedom of religion. All I have heard on this matter is people on these boards saying they are going to come here and build mosques. And maybe a few might pop up, just another building. But it doesn't really matter anyway because no self respecting UK native would ever venture into the areas where these things would be built, save to maybe drive through and tut at the eyesore. Are we so afraid of Islam that when a building where people go to pray and receive spiritual counselling becomes some sort of object of hate? Because if that is the case I am rather ashamed of my country, it's like the Tudors revisited. But at least Henry did it for sex.

Yeah that's the one thing I really don't understand, imagine going your whole life never having had bacon, poor sods!

my respect ... greatly worded

[Deleted]

What I have noticed is that people dont really care about concervatives values, they care about apearance as long as a person is dressed western above all women than evertyhing is fine. The truth is that apearance doesnt tell you anything like someone who looks nice can be the biggest nazi also someone who dresses in western cloths can be very fundamentalist. People are superficial there are people who apear religious, who are more open minded than people who dont apear religious and I say that this superficiallity is one of the problems.

Also segeration is caused by failed government politics. Also crime correlates with your social status and not with your religion and or race, the fact is that people of other "race" and religion are often in a low social status that is why crime is higher in those areas. Before there were larger immigrant groups, other people held the position of the poorest and social weaker group, now the immigrants "took over" that position. So the whole issue has to do with the system and not with ones religion or "race".

If you would send all immigrants away also all people with immigrants as parents then someoen else needs to take over the postion, thus the problems will remain the same, only some people will lose there scapegoat and maybe new scapegoats will be created (like white trash or maybe all red haired people take over that position ...).

Edited September 20, 2015 by hellwyr

[141]

Because it's part of the problem. ISIS isn't run by atheists after all.

Hey, great to read! Just don't pretend that your example is representative of the rest of the world.

Again, great to read and very comforting to know that you're having such a good go at it.

Which is good, if those generations can be reached. But what's happening with this islamist migration threatens the national identities of those countries being overrun.

Because it is part of the problem. I'm not hating, I don't do that, just pointing out facts.

Those monsters! j/k...

isis isnt islam and they are not muslim as much as they claim to be rather they use the religion to bring us down . they use islam as a shield but they are infidels

[141]

What I have noticed is that people dont really care about concervatives values, they care about apearance as long as a person is dressed western above all women than evertyhing is fine. The truth is that apearance doesnt tell you anything like someone who looks nice can be the biggest nazi also someone who dresses in western cloths can be very fundamentalist. People are superficial there are people who apear religious, who are more open minded than people who dont apear religious and I say that this superficiallity is one of the problems.

Also segeration is caused by failed government politics. Also crime correlates with your social status and not with your religion and or race, the fact is that people of other "race" and religion are often in a low social status that is why crime is higher in those areas. Before there were larger immigrant groups, other people held the position of the poorest and social weaker group, now the immigrants "took over" that position. So the whole issue has to do with the system and not with ones religion or "race".

If you would send all immigrants away also all people with immigrants as parents then someoen else needs to take over the postion, thus the problems will remain the same, only some people will lose there scapegoat and maybe new scapegoats will be created (like white trash or maybe all red haired people take over that position ...).

yet another very well written post

[Leonardo]

isis isnt islam and they are not muslim as much as they claim to be rather they use the religion to bring us down . they use islam as a shield but they are infidels

Ya Amar,

Rather than calling ISIS "infidels" - because that word carries a particular, and rather derogatory, resonance with all non-Muslims - it might be better to refer to those who support the twisted 'ideals' of ISIS as "criminals".

As for whether they are "Muslims", that rather depends on the vagaries of semantics. If the various hate-groups that call themselves "Christian" - such as the Westboro Baptist Church - do so rightfully (i.e. they are "Christian", but they are rather 'twisted' in how they express Christian ideology) then we might justifiably refer to ISIS, and other similar groups, as "Muslims".

That wouldn't mean they are representative of Islam - no one group is, as there are many different 'flavours' of Islam - ISIS simply represents a particularly unpleasant, twisted 'flavour'.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Leonardo

[141]

Ya Amar,

Rather than calling ISIS "infidels" - because that word carries a particular, and rather derogatory, resonance with all non-Muslims - it might be better to refer to those who support the twisted 'ideals' of ISIS as "criminals".

As for whether they are "Muslims", that rather depends on the vagaries of semantics. If the various hate-groups that call themselves "Christian" - such as the Westboro Baptist Church - do so rightfully (i.e. they are "Christian", but they are rather 'twisted' in how they express Christian ideology) then we might justifiably refer to ISIS, and other similar groups, as "Muslims".

That wouldn't mean they are representative of Islam, but there are many different 'flavours' of Islam - ISIS simply represents a particularly unpleasant, twisted 'flavour'.

i wish to clarify infidels ... just because there are non muslims doesnt mean that they are infidels ... there are many non muslim good and decent believers, for me it doesnt matter what religious system they believe in as long as they believe to be good and do good ... i will never judge a non muslim as infidel . not even if they are atheists . i know atheist that behave much better then some muslims do . i cant and wont go much deeper into it , i dont wish to write a long drawn out story . are there many flavors of islam ? yes, do we even battle each other ? yes ... we fight among each other ... as they do in many other religious systems ... bottom line is that people dont want to hear that they (isis ) are not of us .

Edited September 20, 2015 by YA AMAR

[Arbenol]

Hey, great to read! Just don't pretend that your example is representative of the rest of the world.

Being American (I presume), you might not appreciate this but Grey Area is talking about Birmingham. Which, if you are a Daily Mail reader, is one more Muslim away from becoming the "Islamic State of Birmingistan" (they would have to do away with the "ham", naturally).

If it ain't happening in Birmingham, it ain't happening anywhere.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

isis isnt islam and they are not muslim as much as they claim to be rather they use the religion to bring us down . they use islam as a shield but they are infidels

The media in the West needs to report such beliefs from within the Muslim community, because the narrative we're seeing is ISIS saying and doing all those terrible things and no one saying boo. We're being shown tragedy after tragedy orchestrated by radicals and stony silence from everyone else in Islam. were being given the evidence of silent complicity from the wider Islamic community barring token "not all of us!" From the odd cleric or community leader.

[Arbenol]

The media in the West needs to report such beliefs from within the Muslim community, because the narrative we're seeing is ISIS saying and doing all those terrible things and no one saying boo. We're being shown tragedy after tragedy orchestrated by radicals and stony silence from everyone else in Islam. were being given the evidence of silent complicity from the wider Islamic community barring token "not all of us!" From the odd cleric or community leader.

It may be the narrative from some sources, but that does not mean it's accurate.

In all fairness, many Muslims are coming out and criticising ISIS. There's one right here on these boards, the very person you responded to, to say this.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2014/08/the-muslims-who-are-condemning-isis/

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/10/28/muslim-leaders-from-around-the-world-issue-isis-rebuke/

I'm sure there's many more examples. This was just a one minute search.

The other side of this is that to demand condemnation from other Muslims tends to imply that if they don't, well they must support ISIS. And the wheel of hate and intolerance goes round.

And if this criticism is out there, why don't we hear so much about it?

[141]

The media in the West needs to report such beliefs from within the Muslim community, because the narrative we're seeing is ISIS saying and doing all those terrible things and no one saying boo. We're being shown tragedy after tragedy orchestrated by radicals and stony silence from everyone else in Islam. were being given the evidence of silent complicity from the wider Islamic community barring token "not all of us!" From the odd cleric or community leader.

i agree that this is happening , you see all these things but if i go deeper into it i will be called a liar we as muslims will be called liars . the media will always focus on the horrifying acts of what isis does . it is to promote fear and i can even understand people and their fear its not that they are wrongit is even legit . What do people think that we see in our country ? we see the exact same terrible acts . we fear isis, we fear for our lives ... i have recently seen a video where a mans head got cut off with a knife and he called out allahu akbar ... i cried for days , i vomite i cant believe still what i saw . to say its wrong is a big understatement . we all know what is going on but we are being held down . how many people know that in my country if you walk around with a beard you are labeled a terrorist , we started to fear each other and thats the whole agenda ... again , i worked for the US Military and was married to a military member with a very high security clearance . i know what i know and that knowledge has almost cost my life and the life of my family ... and before i kick the bucket and bite the grass i will open my mouth ...

[Leonardo]

i wish to clarify infidels ... just because there are non muslims doesnt mean that they are infidels ... there are many non muslim good and decent believers, for me it doesnt matter what religious system they believe in as long as they believe to be good and do good ... i will never judge a non muslim as infidel . not even if they are atheists . i know atheist that behave much better then some muslims do . i cant and wont go much deeper into it , i dont wish to write a long drawn out story . are there many flavors of islam ? yes, do we even battle each other ? yes ... we fight among each other ... as they do in many other religious systems ... bottom line is that people dont want to hear that they (isis ) are not of us .

I wasn't making any personal criticism of you, Ya Amar, and I had faith you weren't using the word "infidel" in a way derogatory to all non-Muslims. All I wished to express to you is how many, perhaps most, non-Muslims perceive that word and that it would be best to perhaps not use it in a serious context.

[Deleted]

Wether you let those immigrants in or not, wether you want to help them or not has nothing to do with Islam and what they believe in, thats something I wanted to clarify.

Personally I reject Islam and Christianity in my point of view it is the same and has the same roots, I also think Islam is part of the problem as well as Christianity is and I am pretty sure that when Christians get a hold of power and the country is in a poor state they will do the same as ISIS, it happened before in history and will propaply happen again. Both Islam and Chrsitianity are a social system a constitution of rules, which stands in direct conflict with law and other social developements, you can interprete it more peacefully or not its up to teh individual, but still there are limits as how you can interprete it and there are core believes which will always stay the same, also it is written and as such it is hard to change, it is more then just faith it is a system as such it is to some extent a threat, but as much as I personally dislike those religions (actually same goes for buddhism and hinduism) everyone has the right to believe what he or she wants to as long as no criminal actions are conducted, so I wont condemn migrants and refugees beforehand, they deserve a chance and they obviously need help and I dont see them as moslems or christians I see them as human beeings and I dont derive their worth from what they believe in. Also as stated in other posts there are many reason as to why we should let them in, Islam is not more or less a threat as Christianity and some other religions are and the whole Islam is so dangerous discussion is ridicolous and is only used to control people and agitate them. If you seriously want to protect western values then let them in and sho the world that equality and humanism are still things which are appreciated in the west.

[141]

I wasn't making any personal criticism of you, Ya Amar, and I had faith you weren't using the word "infidel" in a way derogatory to all non-Muslims. All I wished to express to you is how many, perhaps most, non-Muslims perceive that word and that it would be best to perhaps not use it in a serious context.

i know and i apologize deeply but sometimes i get a bit emotional .

[Ashotep]

i know and i apologize deeply but sometimes i get a bit emotional .

We can all get emotional over some of these topics sometimes.

[Ashotep]

Ya Amar,

Rather than calling ISIS "infidels" - because that word carries a particular, and rather derogatory, resonance with all non-Muslims - it might be better to refer to those who support the twisted 'ideals' of ISIS as "criminals".

As for whether they are "Muslims", that rather depends on the vagaries of semantics. If the various hate-groups that call themselves "Christian" - such as the Westboro Baptist Church - do so rightfully (i.e. they are "Christian", but they are rather 'twisted' in how they express Christian ideology) then we might justifiably refer to ISIS, and other similar groups, as "Muslims".

That wouldn't mean they are representative of Islam - no one group is, as there are many different 'flavours' of Islam - ISIS simply represents a particularly unpleasant, twisted 'flavour'.

I think the biggest difference in ISIS and WB is that if WB tried some of the things that ISIS did they would be brought down. This would happen because most people including other Christians see WB as a bunch of loons and we have laws to keep them in their place. Where as many think ISIS is great and support them. Often some Muslim countries are run by Muslim hardliners that allow this kind of activity to take place, some even finance it. Not that I think all Muslims would.

[Leonardo]

I think the biggest difference in ISIS and WB is that if WB tried some of the things that ISIS did they would be brought down. This would happen because most people including other Christians see WB as a bunch of loons and we have laws to keep them in their place. Where as many think ISIS is great and support them. Often some Muslim countries are run by Muslim hardliners that allow this kind of activity to take place, some even finance it. Not that I think all Muslims would.

Yes, secular laws. What you wrote speaks more, I think for the difference between secularism and non-secularism (i.e. not having religion dictate your government policy and law) than any difference between ISIS and the WBC.

If groups like the WBC existed in a theocratic environment similar to where ISIS evolved, and exists, I have little doubt it's members may be as brutal and inhumane as the members of ISIS are.

[Thorvir]

So then it is ISIS that are the problem not Islam. There are plenty of radical Christian movements, not to mention the Protestant vs Catholic argument that has plagued Northern Ireland for decades, so do we fear our dear Christian flocks?

Thing is, without islam, there would be no ISIS. Oh I agree that there are plenty of "radical" christian movements, I just don't see them currently making war on their neighbors using religion as the reason, raping and stoning women for transgressions, beheading prisoners and putting the videos up on youtube....

I think it is representative of the attitude of most Muslims who come to the UK or who are born in the UK. the main reason these communities are segregated is because people don't make an effort to understand them, that and the convoluted socio-economics involved in population dispersion.

Wait...now it's the host country's fault? OMG...

There's the fear again. Our national identity may become one of multi-culturalism and multiple faiths, so what's new?

That would be acceptable, however, that's not what appears to be happening. Oh, and don't think that I fear anything. I do not. I am concerned and I am wary. Big difference.

Yes but the only reason this is a problem because people are making it one. I've not seen anything about these migrants demanding freedom of religion. All I have heard on this matter is people on these boards saying they are going to come here and build mosques. And maybe a few might pop up, just another building. But it doesn't really matter anyway because no self respecting UK native would ever venture into the areas where these things would be built, save to maybe drive through and tut at the eyesore. Are we so afraid of Islam that when a building where people go to pray and receive spiritual counselling becomes some sort of object of hate? Because if that is the case I am rather ashamed of my country, it's like the Tudors revisited. But at least Henry did it for sex.

Wait, so you admit that "no self-respecting UK native would ever venture into the areas where these things were built...." yet you say it's not an issue? You're can't have it both ways....

Yeah that's the one thing I really don't understand, imagine going your whole life never having had bacon, poor sods!

I cannot fathom that at this time. I'm going to have to go cook up some bacon now to make me feel better...

[Thorvir]

Being American (I presume), you might not appreciate this but Grey Area is talking about Birmingham. Which, if you are a Daily Mail reader, is one more Muslim away from becoming the "Islamic State of Birmingistan" (they would have to do away with the "ham", naturally).

My nationality has nothing to do with that. Try again.

[bmk1245]

[...]

I don't feel like any of migrants are spitting in my face. They are very grateful to both our civilians and officers who are helping them. Of course they don't want to stay here, we can't offer much, we're full of our own poverty-stricken people who too would gladly work in Germany but it's not as easy as it was during 1960-1990s. Not to digress.

[...]

Well... If asylum seekers. escaping grave dangers, consider your peaceful country as not worthy to stay, that fits "spit in the face", IMHO.