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Croatia closes border crossings with Serbia


bubblykiss

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:lol:

Of course he did. He was a child refugee too.

And of course he does, when he sees the ways some people are defending Christianity.

Funny detail: Milanovic asked Orban, in semi-official talk, to ‘do not defend Christianity for me’. Meaning that Croats don’t need others to defend their Christian traditions.

But I was talking about our true traditions, much older than Christianity. Fortunatelly, they are the same in the essence.

Some did. They’re already settled somewhere, after travelling first class. No one minds, just like no one minds when rich Arab buys western whores.

These folks everyone’s frothing about actually walk with 100 euros in pocket. Oh, and the phone. How dare they own a phone.

I have ‘designer’ clothes I bought for the price of a pack of cigarettes. They’re fake.

I also had pretty hiking boots that fell apart after one walk up and half way down my favourite path. I stick to our Jelen boots since then.

And you would keep them out of Christian Europe? Jesus needs new box of tissues, just because of you personally.

Most of them, yes. Some were so traumatised not even Germans will be able to calm them down, so there’s a chance they’ll grow up to be just like you, but that won’t be our damn fault.

Yes, charging points and young volunteers walking around camps with free WiFi. They carry battery and the equipment in the backpacks, with piece of paper with ‘free WiFi’ sticked on said backpack. Migrants couldn’t believe and asked how much to connect. Nothing, it’s free.

If you were ever separated from your family and friends, desperate for information, you’d believe them and me that sometimes, information is more important than food.

Besides, are smartphones really a sign of wealth in your society? They don’t have to be of I-won’t-give-them-free-add-here brand, you can buy them at relatively acceptable price.

Not to mention they're so brown. And short. No, really, they are short. Makes it a little easier to oversee the crowd.

But don’t be so envious, come over here, we’ll let you sleep in the tent too and use free WiFi. Then we’ll give you a free ride in the opposite direction, so you can walk down to ME and see for yourself if they moved out of spite, curiosity or necessity.

Not to curb your unfounded sense of superiority, but Tennessee was not richer or more cultivated than Syria – before the war, naturally.

You, of course, draw your personal illusion of supremacy out of influence and strength of the whole US, country that is half a continent big, with states that do not equally contribute to the overall economy.

So your state is actually a geopolitical equivalent of those awful poor folks who make you so uncomfortable.

65,000 migrants went through Croatia so far. Neighbouring Serbia, Hungary and Slovenia are throwing joint hysteric fits, because this migrant wave was supposed to be left stranded in Croatia (and break Croatia down as a bonus). It didn't happen, so they're a bit frustrated, understandably.

Croatian rightish centre, currently in the opposition, praises Serbian and Hungarian treatment of the migrants and their head is in contact with Serbian prime minister, with intention to plot with Serbia against current, elected Croatian government. It's not surprising to anyone who knows objective recent history of this land. The louder the nationalist, the less true patriotism he has.

Another great side effect of a horrible situation: very clear reminder of the nature of certain political figures, right before the elections. Perfect.

Anyone in Croatia who wants Serbia as the closer ally than EU, should vote for the current opposition.

Not that current government was successful. They were freaking disaster. The only thing they handle right is external affairs, which is still something, far better than that, what fake nationalists have to offer.

Helen, i appreciate your posts and the updates you are providing its good to get a sense of what's happening on the ground. - But we have to remember here that we need balance - and that's where my posts are coming from. the EU's figures along with the UN's state 80% of those in Europe are not Refugees. So when you was giving people a update you was giving the side of the story for the 20% of the refugees. Me i was talking about the 80% of Economic Migrants and by default Illegal Migrants. But you seem to have got all bitter and twisted in your reply.

Figures are.

480,000 Estimated Numbers in the EU,

20% refugees

80% illegal migrants

8,000 Migrants entering Europe everyday with no end in sight. UN.

EU Quota program to relocate 120,000 migrants against their will. (So not fixing the problem at all, 120,000 is a drop in the ocean)

Estimated Numbers by years end 1.8 Million in Europe. - Where are they all going to go? when you take the figures you can see the 120,000 EU quota is achieving nothing.

At some point reality is going to sink in that there is now end in sight to the numbers arriving. With the UN warning there is no end in sight and over a million a year for the next five years, this crisis is not going away and only going to worsen. Countries struggling now, imagine what their going to be like in the coming months.

Take Croatia as a perfect example, Croatia is struggling to handle the crisis, Croatia is damaging relations with her neighbours. - by placing restrictions on border crossings from Serbia and illegally placing migrants on buses and trains and simply shipping them across the border to Hungary unannounced - their policy is collapsing. Fights between Migrants and police in Croatian camps is breaking out.

And why is this all happening? well, if we cast our minds back it was Boats in the Med coming from Africa in the Southern Med. - The Eu's policy to rescue these migrants and not to return them to Africa but to bring them to Europe gave the Green light for others hundreds of miles away from the Eastern Med, Turkey to see that policy and take advantage of it. - The Moment Germany went off solo, with no backing from the EU or anyone else and Frau Merkel announced ALL ARE WELCOME. Well the flood gates opened. - Whatever happened to Frau Merkels, we will take 400,000 a year for the next seven years? 14,000 turned up and they closed their border, put in border checks and then went crying to the EU that we, ALL of Europe should all share the burden Germany chose to place on itself.

serious Question, and lets see how many answer it. at what point is enough, enough is enough? Someone put a figure on it.

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Helen, i appreciate your posts and the updates you are providing its good to get a sense of what's happening on the ground. - But we have to remember here that we need balance - and that's where my posts are coming from. the EU's figures along with the UN's state 80% of those in Europe are not Refugees. So when you was giving people a update you was giving the side of the story for the 20% of the refugees. Me i was talking about the 80% of Economic Migrants and by default Illegal Migrants. But you seem to have got all bitter and twisted in your reply.

*starts reading* Thank you. *keeps reading on* And **** you. Kidding!

Seriously now: I believe you are stating actual and accurate (as possible) data.

It is my personal opinion that the same mercy and chances should be given to both refugees and economic migrants. I also believe the definition of a refugee is somewhat wrong, because fleeing hunger is as serious as fleeing artillery.

Of course most of them are illegal. There’s this law stating the minimum amount of money you have to have at your disposal if you want to enter Croatia, for example. You could be legal but broke and if the bureaucracy decides so, you could be tossed out just because of that little catch. It’s not insisted upon, unless someone’s annoying.

Our authorities do not exempt migrants from our laws. They are found, contained (in dignified manner) and their further transit (or care, some will die or be born at our soil) organized. My government would be more than happy if there was one clear European (and wider) agreement and actual plan what to do with these migrants and especially those that will follow them.

Figures are.

480,000 Estimated Numbers in the EU,

20% refugees

80% illegal migrants

8,000 Migrantsentering Europe everyday with no end in sight. UN.

EU Quota program to relocate 120,000 migrants against their will. (So not fixing the problem at all, 120,000 is a drop in the ocean)

Estimated Numbers by years end 1.8 Million in Europe. - Where are they all going to go? when you take the figures you can see the 120,000 EU quota is achieving nothing.

At some point reality is going to sink in that there is now end in sight to the numbers arriving. With the UN warning there is no end in sight and over a million a year for the next five years, this crisis is not going away and only going to worsen. Countries struggling now, imagine what their going to be like in the coming months.

Yes.

In my opinion, the only way to stop misery and collapse of human society spreading through Europe too is to start fixing the problem at the source.

We are wondering what to do with toothache spreading through the whole jaw, how to keep it isolated on the bad tooth, instead of looking for ways to fix the troubled tooth. Pull it out if needed be.

Take Croatia as a perfect example, Croatia is struggling to handle the crisis, Croatia is damaging relations with her neighbours. - by placing restrictions on border crossings from Serbia and illegally placing migrants on buses and trains and simply shipping them across the border to Hungary unannounced - their policy is collapsing.

I’d say the lovely neighbours started first, but I admit I cannot possibly be objective about that.

Serbia did actually and objectively closed us off first (our measures were only the answer to their extortion) and is forcing migrants to illegally cross the border into Croatia. Instead of driving them to the crossings, in tempo my government is more than willing to plan with the neighbours, all of them. Yes, our authorities have it documented.

Hungary has a problem larger than the migrant issue. That Springtime for Hitler Orban is directing has producers no one sane would trust.

Fights between Migrants and police in Croatian camps is breaking out.

Not true. Period.

Isolated cases of thuggery are not any special challenge for our police. Looking at wet, scared, exhausted and ragged people, kids especially, is a challenge.

Sometimes migrants do start shouting, demanding they’re let to walk on if the transport is late, but I’d shout too in their place. There’re no clashes with the police at this moment.

And why is this all happening? well, if we cast our minds back it was Boats in the Med coming from Africa in the Southern Med. - The Eu's policy to rescue these migrants and not to return them to Africa but to bring them to Europe gave the Green light for others hundreds of miles away from the Eastern Med, Turkey to see that policy and take advantage of it. -The Moment Germany went off solo, with no backing from the EU or anyone else and Frau Merkel announced ALL ARE WELCOME. Well the flood gates opened. -

What was the alternative? Hitting migrants with oars? Letting them drown? Pushing the survivors back into the sea?

They’re not floating and walking to Europe because of what Merkel said weeks ago, the human tsunamis are hitting Italy since years. And Iraqis are drowning in Danube since years, human smugglers are working overtime since years, but no one noticed it before. Just like no one noticed the immortal Chinese immigrants - one maybe physically dies, but another lives on with his papers. And so on.

Whatever happened to Frau Merkels, we will take 400,000 a year for the next seven years? 14,000 turned up and they closed their border, put in border checks and then went crying to the EU that we, ALL of Europe should all share the burden Germany chose to place on itself.

Tempo. If Germany said they’ll take this number in that time, they’ll do exactly that.

This wave must be slowed down in arrival, not stopped by inhumane means.

serious Question, and lets see how many answer it. at what point is enough, enough is enough? Someone put a figure on it.

It was far too many years ago.

If nothing’s done few more hundred thousand will arrive, but some already want back. Europe is attractive only while it has something to offer.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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When you have Donald Tusk the president of the European council, who chaired the recent EU migrant crisis summit, warned: “The greatest tide of refugees and migrants is yet to come.” Then you know Europe is in real, real real deep trouble. Borders and fences going up and No room at the Inn.

The UK in the last twelve months has taken in 630,000 migrants, and 38,000 Asylum seekers 7,000 of them Syrians and because of this Crisis its been announced we'll take a further 20,000 Refugees from Syria over the next five years. I don't know about anyother country, But reality is going to hit home at some point, and our numbers are unsustainable. We cannot afford to allow unlimited numbers. and at the end of the day that's what it'll come down to, Numbers.

I remember as a kid watching a NEWS report on a famine in Africa somewhere, possibly Ethiopia, There was a UN camp, run by a French Aid worker, and this woman was confronted at the gates of the camp by not just hundreds, but thousands of woman and children dying of starvation, the situation was utterly hopeless in every sense of the word - and this French woman had to pick who could and could not enter the camp, - She was having to choose who would live and who would die, with limited resources ALL could not be saved. faced with such a dilemma she had to turn away the most needy - the children who where days away from dying in order to save the children who where weeks away from dying. I'd love to know exactly who this woman was or even the NEWS piece in which she was featured. I hope she lived a happy life afterwards because the horrors and the decisions she was forced to make out of sheer desperation at that time was something no person should ever had to face or make.

Now, This current EU migrant crisis is not on the same scale as the Ethiopian Famine, But it has the potential to reach the same point where people are going to have to choose who lives and who dies, simply by stopping numbers. - the current numbers coming from African and Syria/middle east are unsustainable. with 24%, or 124Million people in the EU living on or below the poverty line, a 2013 Eurostat study projects that figure set to increase. With UN figures stating 1.8million migrants from Syria and the middle east are to make the journey to Europe by the end of 2016 and UN figures estimating a further Half a million Migrants are travelling up through Africa to reach Europe, that's 2.3 Million people in 12 months. If the UN is to be believed, that this crisis could continue for five or more years that's 11.5 Million people in Five years. - at some point someone regardless of all the best intentions in the world is going to have to make the tough decision. Its this reason alone that i was and still am in favour of making the tough decision sooner rather than later.

Edited by stevewinn
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i wonder how many of these migrants will go back to syria in the future if the problems in syria get sorted out, i bet not many.

Unless forced to, why would they? Free room and board in a country that will bow to their every wish, in a country that will change it's culture to the whims of the migrants? Naw, they won't leave.

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When you have Donald Tusk the president of the European council, who chaired the recent EU migrant crisis summit, warned: “The greatest tide of refugees and migrants is yet to come.” Then you know Europe is in real, real real deep trouble. Borders and fences going up and No room at the Inn.

The UK in the last twelve months has taken in 630,000 migrants, and 38,000 Asylum seekers 7,000 of them Syrians and because of this Crisis its been announced we'll take a further 20,000 Refugees from Syria over the next five years. I don't know about anyother country, But reality is going to hit home at some point, and our numbers are unsustainable. We cannot afford to allow unlimited numbers. and at the end of the day that's what it'll come down to, Numbers.

I remember as a kid watching a NEWS report on a famine in Africa somewhere, possibly Ethiopia, There was a UN camp, run by a French Aid worker, and this woman was confronted at the gates of the camp by not just hundreds, but thousands of woman and children dying of starvation, the situation was utterly hopeless in every sense of the word - and this French woman had to pick who could and could not enter the camp, - She was having to choose who would live and who would die, with limited resources ALL could not be saved. faced with such a dilemma she had to turn away the most needy - the children who where days away from dying in order to save the children who where weeks away from dying. I'd love to know exactly who this woman was or even the NEWS piece in which she was featured. I hope she lived a happy life afterwards because the horrors and the decisions she was forced to make out of sheer desperation at that time was something no person should ever had to face or make.

Now, This current EU migrant crisis is not on the same scale as the Ethiopian Famine, But it has the potential to reach the same point where people are going to have to choose who lives and who dies, simply by stopping numbers. - the current numbers coming from African and Syria/middle east are unsustainable. with 24%, or 124Million people in the EU living on or below the poverty line, a 2013 Eurostat study projects that figure set to increase. With UN figures stating 1.8million migrants from Syria and the middle east are to make the journey to Europe by the end of 2016 and UN figures estimating a further Half a million Migrants are travelling up through Africa to reach Europe, that's 2.3 Million people in 12 months. If the UN is to be believed, that this crisis could continue for five or more years that's 11.5 Million people in Five years. - at some point someone regardless of all the best intentions in the world is going to have to make the tough decision. Its this reason alone that i was and still am in favour of making the tough decision sooner rather than later.

First of all, thank you, seriously, for talking about estimated 11.5 million migrants.

I’m fed up with those who babble about 100 million rabid islamists.

Of course you can’t allow unlimited numbers. No one can.

But 500 million Europeans is still far from being in danger of getting overrun by the newcomers. This current wave can be accepted without major problems. (Has anyone counted drug addicts lately? A lot, huh? But we’re not in panic they’ll destroy the society, though they are not just completely useless but also expensive with their host of medical problems. Not to mention dangerous, especially those in politics while on cocaine.)

The exact number when it becomes enough-is-enough depends on the integration of the already accepted people. It has to be an actual integration, no enclaves, no acting like you can’t learn the basics of one freaking language, no tolerance to salamists or whaaaaahabists or any other perversion. No rebellious youth of undisclosed ethnicity. Name, shame and deport. What they’ll wear and eat is their choice, but what I’ll wear and eat is mine. I think that would be fair and constructive.

I disagree on fences, because you know better than me that people do find their way not just through a fence, they’re pouring in your country for years, though it has perfect natural barrier.

The borders can be protected, by the type of force that we have no right to use at this point. We were not attacked. We were asked to help.

Even with moral obligation aside, we obviously can’t keep pretending like it’s not our problem.

Only by doing something at the source we can help ourselves, even if we don’t care for the others.

But how? By popular demand. No, really.

Average European must not fall into hysteria and blame migrants. They’re victims. Blame the perpetrator: greedy, stupid, short-sighted, disloyal profiteers. They screwed it up at the source, they may unscrew it too. Maybe not that easily, maybe not completely, but they can do as much as it takes for the crisis to diminish into an issue.

Until that happens, the decline in the offer for the migrants, that will inevitably follow the unrealistic numbers, will sort these numbers out.

There's already a Dutch reporter helping migrants realize Croatia cannot give them accomodation up to his expectations. Guy entered Croatia, lying he's Syrian without identification, made video in which he's accusing Croatia of not making migrants comfortable and free to move around (!) enough. And I was puzzled what made Serbia, of all migrant traps, make the same claim.

Well, **** it, neighbours and lying Dutchmen, this is what Croatia can offer. You are most welcome to do better.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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For how ruthless it may sound but shifting the problem isn't the solution. Allowing hundreds of thousands of people to move into Europe from the ME and North Africa will only deteriorate the conditions of life for future generations of Europeans. Why wouldn't Europeans feel the need to look after their own backyard? Unfortunately life isn't always fair and just. When massive emigrations occurred last century to the Americas and to a minor degree, to Australia, the world wasn't overpopulated and those countries specifically were in need of the extra skills and labor these people were bringing. Now we have over 7 billion people in the world. Europe has approx, 750 million souls living there, compared to 400 million in the early 1900's.

There is only one solution and the solution is to fix the problem at the source and everyone should dip in. By enhancing education and prosperity they can build a better Middle East but they need to ditch religion out of their Parliaments, they need the rich fat a$$.. from the Gulf States to invest in local infrastructures and build industries. After all, the petrodollar isn't going to last forever. They should start following the examples of the BRICS. The rest of the world should support in aid (humanitarian and financial if necessary) but that's where the buck should stop.

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Yeah. Let's follow BRIC example and let people live in favellas, slave factories and crap up to their necks, while the elite is swearing on the ****en Kapital instead of the Bible. What an amazing difference.

Wake up, nephew. It's all the same and they all dine at the same table, while we eat the same ****.

Back on topic.

70,000+ through Croatia so far, Macedonia has 5,000 more of the announced and god knows how many more on top of it.

The threats and intrigue in the neighbourhood continue, showing the actual goal of opening the floodgates in Turkey: sowing political chaos in Europe. Wrecking fragile EU cooperation, possibly destroying it from the inside.

It takes a moron to bite that bait, but it turns out we're not short of morons in power.

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First of all, thank you, seriously, for talking about estimated 11.5 million migrants.

I’m fed up with those who babble about 100 million rabid islamists.

Of course you can’t allow unlimited numbers. No one can.

But 500 million Europeans is still far from being in danger of getting overrun by the newcomers. This current wave can be accepted without major problems. (Has anyone counted drug addicts lately? A lot, huh? But we’re not in panic they’ll destroy the society, though they are not just completely useless but also expensive with their host of medical problems. Not to mention dangerous, especially those in politics while on cocaine.)

The exact number when it becomes enough-is-enough depends on the integration of the already accepted people. It has to be an actual integration, no enclaves, no acting like you can’t learn the basics of one freaking language, no tolerance to salamists or whaaaaahabists or any other perversion. No rebellious youth of undisclosed ethnicity. Name, shame and deport. What they’ll wear and eat is their choice, but what I’ll wear and eat is mine. I think that would be fair and constructive.

I disagree on fences, because you know better than me that people do find their way not just through a fence, they’re pouring in your country for years, though it has perfect natural barrier.

The borders can be protected, by the type of force that we have no right to use at this point. We were not attacked. We were asked to help.

Even with moral obligation aside, we obviously can’t keep pretending like it’s not our problem.

Only by doing something at the source we can help ourselves, even if we don’t care for the others.

But how? By popular demand. No, really.

Average European must not fall into hysteria and blame migrants. They’re victims. Blame the perpetrator: greedy, stupid, short-sighted, disloyal profiteers. They screwed it up at the source, they may unscrew it too. Maybe not that easily, maybe not completely, but they can do as much as it takes for the crisis to diminish into an issue.

Until that happens, the decline in the offer for the migrants, that will inevitably follow the unrealistic numbers, will sort these numbers out.

There's already a Dutch reporter helping migrants realize Croatia cannot give them accomodation up to his expectations. Guy entered Croatia, lying he's Syrian without identification, made video in which he's accusing Croatia of not making migrants comfortable and free to move around (!) enough. And I was puzzled what made Serbia, of all migrant traps, make the same claim.

Well, **** it, neighbours and lying Dutchmen, this is what Croatia can offer. You are most welcome to do better.

With 23.6Million people currently unemployed in the EU 28. Where are all the Jobs coming from for the refugees / migrants? the follow on question is - without jobs were is all the money coming from to support each migrant/refugee? Its a figure which hasn't been talked about. except the Irish Government who stated stated €12 Million per 100,000 migrants. that's €12,000 per refugee/migrant for 12 month period. It wont be long before the EU is asking for more money.

Unemployment rates across the EU.

Greece 24%

Spain 22.5%

Cyprus 16.2%

Croatia 15.3%

Italy 12.7%

Portugal 12.4%

Slovakia 11.8%

France 10.2%

Ireland 9.7%

Bulgaria 9.6%

Finland 9.5%

Slovenia 9.2%

Belgium 8.6%

Lithuania 8.5%

Poland 7.7%

Sweden 7.6%

Hungary 7%

Romania 7%

Netherlands 6.9%

Estonia 6.5%

Denmark 6%

Austria 6%

Luxembourg 5.7%

United Kingdom 5.6%

Malta 5.5%

Czech Republic 4.9%

Germany 4.7%

Edited by stevewinn
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The statistic for Croatia is wrong. There's a lot more than 15,3% unemployed. Finding a job in Croatia is equal to a miracle.

I guess they counted only the people who are regularly checking in Zavod za zaposljavanje (Institute for employment). You can tell how useful it is, just by it's pompous name. Another socialist legacy, make it pompous, bureaucratize it to death and be careful not to actually do anything.

Migrants maybe could find a job in Croatia, if they entered legally or have been granted asylum (granted, not applied for only), there are some extremelly physically demanding jobs open, but they couldn't live from the wages because no one can. The state bases budget on constant borrowing more money and blowing good portion of it on overpaying completely useless bureaucrats. State employees who actually do some real work, such as policemen, teachers, state health care etc. are ridiculously underpaid and are doing their jobs because they are idealistic morons who don't want to be migrants.

Still we can't just close the borders.

There are kids and disabled people among migrants. For some, failing health of their child was the reason why they came to ask for help.

There are people pushing wheelchairs across fields and country roads. Jesus Christ. Who can turn them down?

Croatia asked Serbia to stop dropping migrants at fields, instructing and pushing them to cross illegally. Croatia asked Serbia to bring migrants to Tovarnik crossing, because the railway is close.

Why Serbia refuses to organize and coordinate tranzit is a mystery, since all those people will reach the West, either way, the difference is only if they'll be exposed to completely unnecessary cruelty on their way.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Not to curb your unfounded sense of superiority, but Tennessee was not richer or more cultivated than Syria – before the war, naturally.

You, of course, draw your personal illusion of supremacy out of influence and strength of the whole US, country that is half a continent big, with states that do not equally contribute to the overall economy.

So your state is actually a geopolitical equivalent of those awful poor folks who make you so uncomfortable.

Accusations of bigotry and insults are certainly the best ways to garner sympanthy for any cause.

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The statistic for Croatia is wrong. There's a lot more than 15,3% unemployed. Finding a job in Croatia is equal to a miracle.

I guess they counted only the people who are regularly checking in Zavod za zaposljavanje (Institute for employment). You can tell how useful it is, just by it's pompous name. Another socialist legacy, make it pompous, bureaucratize it to death and be careful not to actually do anything.

Migrants maybe could find a job in Croatia, if they entered legally or have been granted asylum (granted, not applied for only), there are some extremelly physically demanding jobs open, but they couldn't live from the wages because no one can. The state bases budget on constant borrowing more money and blowing good portion of it on overpaying completely useless bureaucrats. State employees who actually do some real work, such as policemen, teachers, state health care etc. are ridiculously underpaid and are doing their jobs because they are idealistic morons who don't want to be migrants.

Still we can't just close the borders.

There are kids and disabled people among migrants. For some, failing health of their child was the reason why they came to ask for help.

There are people pushing wheelchairs across fields and country roads. Jesus Christ. Who can turn them down?

Croatia asked Serbia to stop dropping migrants at fields, instructing and pushing them to cross illegally. Croatia asked Serbia to bring migrants to Tovarnik crossing, because the railway is close.

Why Serbia refuses to organize and coordinate tranzit is a mystery, since all those people will reach the West, either way, the difference is only if they'll be exposed to completely unnecessary cruelty on their way.

So you haven't got a clue, where all the jobs are coming from or the money its going to cost per migrant, three fundamental questions i've asked, the other was at what figure do we say stop that's it full. - and no-one can answer them. Im not expecting you to have the answer Helen. But it just shows the mentality and short sightedness that's exists of the we must help regardless brigade, don't worry about it, but at some point these issues are going to need addressing and tackling. those unemployment figures cannot just be glossed over. over 20 million Europeans unable to get a job - but these migrants will. the dots don't join up. its inconvenient truths that throws a spanner in the works.

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Accusations of bigotry and insults are certainly the best ways to garner sympanthy for any cause.

Diagnosis, not accusations. Being insulted with the facts only confirms said diagnosis.

Also, you got the wrong impression I was trying to garner your sympathy for the migrant cause - it would be a waste of time to try explaining compassion to someone who doesn't have it.

I did explain the cynic reasons for why migrants shouldn't be treated like vermin, but you obviously don't get them so there, all we have is your insisting to put your offendedness into the centre of attention.

I don't think so.

Contribute to the discussion or stop getting in the way with your attention seeking.

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Diagnosis, not accusations. Being insulted with the facts only confirms said diagnosis.

Also, you got the wrong impression I was trying to garner your sympathy for the migrant cause - it would be a waste of time to try explaining compassion to someone who doesn't have it.

I did explain the cynic reasons for why migrants shouldn't be treated like vermin, but you obviously don't get them so there, all we have is your insisting to put your offendedness into the centre of attention.

I don't think so.

Contribute to the discussion or stop getting in the way with your attention seeking.

Quite the assumptions you've made about me. Since it is obvious you are too emotional to have a reasonable discussion I will no longer participate.

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So you haven't got a clue, where all the jobs are coming from or the money its going to cost per migrant, three fundamental questions i've asked, the other was at what figure do we say stop that's it full. - and no-one can answer them. Im not expecting you to have the answer Helen. But it just shows the mentality and short sightedness that's exists of the we must help regardless brigade, don't worry about it, but at some point these issues are going to need addressing and tackling. those unemployment figures cannot just be glossed over. over 20 million Europeans unable to get a job - but these migrants will. the dots don't join up. its inconvenient truths that throws a spanner in the works.

*sigh*

I'm not jealous of the migrants that will get a job, or those who won't and will be doomed to live on the dole. No one sane should be.

There will be jobs for our workers too, I'm still racist enough to be certain about that, it's just that it looks like we will have to stay mobile and keep learning languages.

It seems that you genuinely don't understand there are things immensely more important than selfish (and false) sense of financial security.

Fine.

Let's explain it the cynic way again: migrants are coming. Through any fence. You can organize and welcome them, or you can treat them like criminals and crap.

Guess which approach will cost you more in the long run.

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Treat them like "criminals and crap", detain all of them until IDs can be verified and housing acquired. Letting million of unknown migrants from a war-torn place to run rampant is folly. It's dangerous for the migrants and the local population. Helen you don't seem to appreciate the incredibly large cultural void that separates these two groups of people. Your ideas are idealistic in that you seem to expect everyone to join hands and sing songs of global peace.

Well there have already been several migrant rape cases (both of Europeans and a lot more within the camps,) massive protests against the migrants in Hungary, Germany, Italy, Serbia (pelting the migrant trains with rocks and bottles, in Germany a gymnasium was burned down because it was supposed to be migrant housing) etc. Yes, I have links and sources for all and more.

Just like there are migrants who are only coming to prey on an unsuspecting first world society there are also Europeans who are going to actively oppose all the migrants. Again, to prevent a small civil war, keep them all in tent city, put up fences to protect your borders and always look after your own safety before you help a drowning victim.

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*sigh*

I'm not jealous of the migrants that will get a job, or those who won't and will be doomed to live on the dole. No one sane should be.

There will be jobs for our workers too, I'm still racist enough to be certain about that, it's just that it looks like we will have to stay mobile and keep learning languages.

It seems that you genuinely don't understand there are things immensely more important than selfish (and false) sense of financial security.

Fine.

Let's explain it the cynic way again: migrants are coming. Through any fence. You can organize and welcome them, or you can treat them like criminals and crap.

Guess which approach will cost you more in the long run.

Half the time i cant tell by your replies if you understand the situation, you seem to miss the point intentional or unintentional i don't know. - You seem to have this attitude that exists a lot in the western world, of things just happen and someone else sorts out the nitty gritty the heart of the matter; the basic essentials; the harsh realities. I've often explained this mentality has someone turning on the light switch in their home, they flick the switch and the light comes on, but they don't question why or how, - all they care is, the light comes like by magic. and its the same with the migrant crisis. we haven't a clue, how many is to many? we haven't a clue were the jobs are coming? from and we haven't a clue where the money is coming from?

- just like the light switch the answers to these questions just happen if by magic. - Croatia is a good example they're not solving a problem their actions - they are quite happy to just ferry the migrants into other countries. And you yourself don't seem to be able to foresee the consequences that lay ahead. when you say to me

It seems that you genuinely don't understand there are things immensely more important than selfish (and false) sense of financial security.
i truly despair. you seem to think everything in dealing with this crisis is unlimited but nothing could be further from the truth, What happens when the limits are reached. go on pretending? equal sharing of misery?
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Treat them like "criminals and crap", detain all of them until IDs can be verified and housing acquired. Letting million of unknown migrants from a war-torn place to run rampant is folly. It's dangerous for the migrants and the local population. Helen you don't seem to appreciate the incredibly large cultural void that separates these two groups of people. Your ideas are idealistic in that you seem to expect everyone to join hands and sing songs of global peace.

Well there have already been several migrant rape cases (both of Europeans and a lot more within the camps,) massive protests against the migrants in Hungary, Germany, Italy, Serbia (pelting the migrant trains with rocks and bottles, in Germany a gymnasium was burned down because it was supposed to be migrant housing) etc. Yes, I have links and sources for all and more.

Just like there are migrants who are only coming to prey on an unsuspecting first world society there are also Europeans who are going to actively oppose all the migrants. Again, to prevent a small civil war, keep them all in tent city, put up fences to protect your borders and always look after your own safety before you help a drowning victim.

Thank you for the good (no, seriously, it is good) advice, but I think I already learnt the ways of taking very good care of my own and the safety of others.

I have good reasons to trust both my country’s police and military will ensure our safety. They can do that even in the case of an actual threat, such as an aggression. This is not aggression, this is sorrow on the move.

If you were wondering why I’m not fazed with this all - it's because we are a little weird nation, it’s not just patriotism talking, we really are a bit above average in defence and similar tasks. We are also experienced in that stuff.

Massive protest against migrants in Croatia gathered 20 (twenty) people.

We also won’t burn any shelters down, because hey, it’s easy for Germans, they can always build new one (hopefully with our migrant builders, I have more than one friend who would be interested).

Rape cases by migrants are particularly infuriating, and it is an actual mystery to me why countries where such crimes took place did not respond in the proper way. I’m very certain the retaliation in my country would be awful.

Now, the fences... let me quote Croatian prime minister Milanovic who said today:

‘No to the wire, no to the fence, never, never, no passaran. I will not, regardless it’s the neighbours we’re talking about, remain silent to such bad things. ... We didn’t put wire not even on the border with Serbia, who attacked us and we were at war with them, because the wire is the symbol of evil, division and hatred and that will not be put on the Croatian border.’

So it’s not just me that’s not fazed out, there’s also the prime minister, defence minister, interior and so on, then there are my Slavonians who do have inconveniences because of the migrant transit but they are not really scared since it’s crawling with the police there... no one I actually know is fazed yet, except one (yes, one) co-worker of mine. But she’s afraid of artificial soups too. Not that she doesn’t have a point, both about migrants and soups, it’s just that caution is useful, hysteria is not.

Croatian prime minister also asked Serbia again to stop tossing migrants at random parts of the border where it can be physically crossed, illegally, instead of bringing them to the legal crossings, preferably with announcement.

It’s not a particular challenge for Croatian police to notice and pick up the migrants and bring them to the shelters, it’s not even annoying us, said prime minister, it’s only causing more suffering for the migrants.

Speaking of the suffering, about 10% of migrants needed medical intervention, mostly because of dehydration, exhaustion and injuries due to long walking, but there were serious cases too. No serious contagious diseases yet, there shouldn’t be any, since they spent the incubation period on their way here.

Half the time i cant tell by your replies if you understand the situation, you seem to miss the point intentional or unintentional i don't know. - You seem to have this attitude that exists a lot in the western world, of things just happen and someone else sorts out the nitty gritty the heart of the matter; the basic essentials; the harsh realities. I've often explained this mentality has someone turning on the light switch in their home, they flick the switch and the light comes on, but they don't question why or how, - all they care is, the light comes like by magic. and its the same with the migrant crisis. we haven't a clue, how many is to many? we haven't a clue were the jobs are coming? from and we haven't a clue where the money is coming from?

- just like the light switch the answers to these questions just happen if by magic. - Croatia is a good example they're not solving a problem their actions - they are quite happy to just ferry the migrants into other countries. And you yourself don't seem to be able to foresee the consequences that lay ahead. when you say to me i truly despair. you seem to think everything in dealing with this crisis is unlimited but nothing could be further from the truth, What happens when the limits are reached. go on pretending? equal sharing of misery?

It won’t be that bad as you fear. It’s actually the cynic, who shares the same head with the kind me, that is telling you that. We – people in general – are the resource too. A little more of ebony, a little less of ivory, I think we can Kumbaya to that.

It would be wrong by default to discuss numbers without knowing them. Statistics you can get is false. Starting with employment in Croatia, for example. There are people, more calculative than you, who have the actual data. Don’t you worry, unless it amuses you.

If I’m wrong then yes, equal sharing of misery.

I do not give up just because it’s not easy. For some things, I do not give up even if it's lost. My ancestors would roll in their graves if I wasn't like that.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Thank you for the good (no, seriously, it is good) advice, but I think I already learnt the ways of taking very good care of my own and the safety of others.

I have good reasons to trust both my country’s police and military will ensure our safety. They can do that even in the case of an actual threat, such as an aggression. This is not aggression, this is sorrow on the move.

If you were wondering why I’m not fazed with this all - it's because we are a little weird nation, it’s not just patriotism talking, we really are a bit above average in defence and similar tasks. We are also experienced in that stuff.

Massive protest against migrants in Croatia gathered 20 (twenty) people.

We also won’t burn any shelters down, because hey, it’s easy for Germans, they can always build new one (hopefully with our migrant builders, I have more than one friend who would be interested).

Rape cases by migrants are particularly infuriating, and it is an actual mystery to me why countries where such crimes took place did not respond in the proper way. I’m very certain the retaliation in my country would be awful.

Now, the fences... let me quote Croatian prime minister Milanovic who said today:

‘No to the wire, no to the fence, never, never, no passaran. I will not, regardless it’s the neighbours we’re talking about, remain silent to such bad things. ... We didn’t put wire not even on the border with Serbia, who attacked us and we were at war with them, because the wire is the symbol of evil, division and hatred and that will not be put on the Croatian border.’

So it’s not just me that’s not fazed out, there’s also the prime minister, defence minister, interior and so on, then there are my Slavonians who do have inconveniences because of the migrant transit but they are not really scared since it’s crawling with the police there... no one I actually know is fazed yet, except one (yes, one) co-worker of mine. But she’s afraid of artificial soups too. Not that she doesn’t have a point, both about migrants and soups, it’s just that caution is useful, hysteria is not.

Croatian prime minister also asked Serbia again to stop tossing migrants at random parts of the border where it can be physically crossed, illegally, instead of bringing them to the legal crossings, preferably with announcement.

It’s not a particular challenge for Croatian police to notice and pick up the migrants and bring them to the shelters, it’s not even annoying us, said prime minister, it’s only causing more suffering for the migrants.

Speaking of the suffering, about 10% of migrants needed medical intervention, mostly because of dehydration, exhaustion and injuries due to long walking, but there were serious cases too. No serious contagious diseases yet, there shouldn’t be any, since they spent the incubation period on their way here.

It won’t be that bad as you fear. It’s actually the cynic, who shares the same head with the kind me, that is telling you that. We – people in general – are the resource too. A little more of ebony, a little less of ivory, I think we can Kumbaya to that.

It would be wrong by default to discuss numbers without knowing them. Statistics you can get is false. Starting with employment in Croatia, for example. There are people, more calculative than you, who have the actual data. Don’t you worry, unless it amuses you.

If I’m wrong then yes, equal sharing of misery.

I do not give up just because it’s not easy. For some things, I do not give up even if it's lost. My ancestors would roll in their graves if I wasn't like that.

Be careful to the detriment of yourself and good luck.

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  • 4 weeks later...

It seems Croatia is up to its old tricks of just dumping the migrants on other countries borders. - As reported on the BBC NEWS last night, we seen the dramatic night-time pictures have emerged of thousands of migrants crossing Croatia's border with Slovenia. They were shot from a Slovenian police helicopter using a thermal camera and released to show how migrants are being helped to cross the border illegally.

A train pulls up the Croatian police then offload the thousand of migrants, the Croatian police then lead them to the Border and simply stand to the side and allow the Migrants to run across the border illegally into another country. It highlights that Croatia is struggling and is resorting to underhand tactics, violating international borders of its neighbours. Croatia needs bringing to task like any other country. It's representatives should be summoned to the EU parliment to explain and fines or compensation paid to its neighbours for violating the Rules.

here is the video.

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It seems Croatia is up to its old tricks of just dumping the migrants on other countries borders. - As reported on the BBC NEWS last night, we seen the dramatic night-time pictures have emerged of thousands of migrants crossing Croatia's border with Slovenia. They were shot from a Slovenian police helicopter using a thermal camera and released to show how migrants are being helped to cross the border illegally.

A train pulls up the Croatian police then offload the thousand of migrants, the Croatian police then lead them to the Border and simply stand to the side and allow the Migrants to run across the border illegally into another country. It highlights that Croatia is struggling and is resorting to underhand tactics, violating international borders of its neighbours. Croatia needs bringing to task like any other country. It's representatives should be summoned to the EU parliment to explain and fines or compensation paid to its neighbours for violating the Rules.

here is the video.

Thank you, steve, for stabbing Croatian back so diligently.

It’s actually old Serbian trick.

We improved it by not charging migrants for the ride and trying to talk Slovenia into letting our buses or train take migrants to Austria.

Slovenia is refusing, demanding EU pays them more for their expenses. Since Slovenia is not transporting migrants, but lets them walk, I wonder what expenses they have at all.

Croatia also constantly offers help to Slovenia, in form of proven advice on organisation, use of our own transport, announcing and coordinating migrant groups.

But, no, Slovenia keeps nitpicking, refusing transit, blaming Austria, while Austria claims they have no quota and migrants are still free to pass.

So Croatia keeps helping migrant transit, because yes, these people will go through, the difference is only if you’ll torture them and squeeze any money out of them or you’ll make them pass with dignity and help they deserve as much as any of us does.

My Croatia did excellent job.

Our police, medical personnel, bus and train drivers, cleaning crews, our patient and kind citizens... our government too, that annoyed the hell out of me for 4 years, but they did great in this situation.

We got as many as 10,000 unfortunate migrants a day and it wasn’t their fault they had to cross in highly unconventional manner. We did our best to help these people get dry clothes, shoes, food, water, shelter and transport.

Croatia will keep helping migrants transit for as long as Germany (and other developed European countries) accepts them.

What Croatia will not do is play Slovenian extortion games.

By the way, steve, take a look at Croatian portals and you’ll see normal videos of migrants crossing, some even had live feeds. Thermal cameras are great toys, but you don’t really need them to shoot something routinely recorded by any phone around.

It’s no secret Croatia has to force Slovenia into letting migrants pass to Austria.

Summoned to the EU parliament... for fines and compensations, no less :lol: Be careful what you wish, for it may come true :yes:

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Thank you, steve, for stabbing Croatian back so diligently.

It’s actually old Serbian trick.

We improved it by not charging migrants for the ride and trying to talk Slovenia into letting our buses or train take migrants to Austria.

Slovenia is refusing, demanding EU pays them more for their expenses. Since Slovenia is not transporting migrants, but lets them walk, I wonder what expenses they have at all.

Croatia also constantly offers help to Slovenia, in form of proven advice on organisation, use of our own transport, announcing and coordinating migrant groups.

But, no, Slovenia keeps nitpicking, refusing transit, blaming Austria, while Austria claims they have no quota and migrants are still free to pass.

So Croatia keeps helping migrant transit, because yes, these people will go through, the difference is only if you’ll torture them and squeeze any money out of them or you’ll make them pass with dignity and help they deserve as much as any of us does.

My Croatia did excellent job.

Our police, medical personnel, bus and train drivers, cleaning crews, our patient and kind citizens... our government too, that annoyed the hell out of me for 4 years, but they did great in this situation.

We got as many as 10,000 unfortunate migrants a day and it wasn’t their fault they had to cross in highly unconventional manner. We did our best to help these people get dry clothes, shoes, food, water, shelter and transport.

Croatia will keep helping migrants transit for as long as Germany (and other developed European countries) accepts them.

What Croatia will not do is play Slovenian extortion games.

By the way, steve, take a look at Croatian portals and you’ll see normal videos of migrants crossing, some even had live feeds. Thermal cameras are great toys, but you don’t really need them to shoot something routinely recorded by any phone around.

It’s no secret Croatia has to force Slovenia into letting migrants pass to Austria.

Summoned to the EU parliament... for fines and compensations, no less :lol: Be careful what you wish, for it may come true :yes:

Nice attempt to paper over the cracks but Croatia is deliberately breaking not only the trust of her neighbours but international laws. You cannot simply "help" people to illegal enter another country just because Croatia cannot handle the situation, or because Croatia as a policy as a "transit" country for the migrants. This is not the first time Croatia as stooped to such lows. another Fence will be going up soon in response to Croatia's actions, poor Slovenia has now asked the EU for assistance, they've asked the EU for police officers and extra equipment to deal with the thousands of migrants entering the small Alpine country from Croatia. Slovenia has protested to Croatia for continuing to let migrants cross the border by train. 50,000 migrants have crossed into Slovenia in the last week alone.

You keep going on about Croatia doing a Excellent job, Really? an excellent job by dumping the migrants over the border and washing your hands of them, - off loading them to Slovenia causing all sorts of problems by those actions. Give a thought to Slovenia whose struggling, and Croatia simply dumping the migrants over the border doesn't fix the situation. in fact your countries actions of dumping them across the border has led to Slovenia having to request tents, blankets and other supplies under the EU's disaster relief programme, because they dont have enough to take the numbers, But you seem happy enough, - Croatia doing an excellent job. no, not really. just causing tensions to rise with all her neighbours she's p***ing off.

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Nice attempt to paper over the cracks but Croatia is deliberately breaking not only the trust of her neighbours but international laws. You cannot simply "help" people to illegal enter another country just because Croatia cannot handle the situation, or because Croatia as a policy as a "transit" country for the migrants. This is not the first time Croatia as stooped to such lows. another Fence will be going up soon in response to Croatia's actions, poor Slovenia has now asked the EU for assistance, they've asked the EU for police officers and extra equipment to deal with the thousands of migrants entering the small Alpine country from Croatia. Slovenia has protested to Croatia for continuing to let migrants cross the border by train. 50,000 migrants have crossed into Slovenia in the last week alone.

You keep going on about Croatia doing a Excellent job, Really? an excellent job by dumping the migrants over the border and washing your hands of them, - off loading them to Slovenia causing all sorts of problems by those actions. Give a thought to Slovenia whose struggling, and Croatia simply dumping the migrants over the border doesn't fix the situation. in fact your countries actions of dumping them across the border has led to Slovenia having to request tents, blankets and other supplies under the EU's disaster relief programme, because they dont have enough to take the numbers, But you seem happy enough, - Croatia doing an excellent job. no, not really. just causing tensions to rise with all her neighbours she's p***ing off.

Hungary, Slovenia , Austria they all let migrants and refugees pass so they get to Germany.

Croatia sends them to Slovenia, Slovenia sends them to Austria and Austria sends them to Germany.

Otherwise Croatia would have to handle them, while she is a small country and Germany is a big country with 80 million people.

Edited by hellwyr
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