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LucidElement

Russia in Syria

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Phaeton80

I have no love for dictators, let alone for those who cling to power to maintain the status quo. That's how the civil war got started, we can't ignore that fact. I think the West has a moral obligation in Syria to support Secular rebels in favor of democracy AND try to find a solution with the Syrian regime and Russia. It's obvious that Putin is trying to position his client as the ''one and only aternative'' so that we can forget it's opposition who did not enjoy the same military backing.

If our mission is to correct dictator situations, why not focus on say, Saudi Arabia? Maybe this list of authoritarian regimes supported by the US will underwrite my point somewhat. The only way to turn this ISIS bs around is to regain stability in the region.

And stability in the region is gained by supporting the present government (a present government which has explicitly stated democratic elections will be issued). This conclusion is obviously supported by the experiences gained from earlier ME 'interventions'. Destabilization of the region has been the main effect of our efforts to 'save the people from their tirant', and it has at the very least indirectly facilitated the present 'ISIS situation' (the school of thought of which btw, Wahhabism, hails from the very same close ally, Saudi Arabia).

Edited by Phaeton80

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Phaeton80

Adding that talking from a position of a US 'democratic system', where two parties provide a selection of runners who in turn succeed soully by virtue of corporate funding.. would be an absolute joke ofcourse. No offence intended.

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EEHC

If our mission is to correct dictator situations, why not focus on say, Saudi Arabia? Maybe this list of authoritarian regimes supported by the US will underwrite my point somewhat. The only way to turn this ISIS bs around is to regain stability in the region.

Change must come from within. In this case, the Syrian regime tried to repress it and hold on to power despite a civil uprising. Syrian forces responded to the crisis with brutal crackdown and refused to step down, as any wise politician would have done.

As for regaining stability, I have a hard time imagining a peaceful and united Syria again with Assad as President. Do you really?

Edited by Sam.

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Phaeton80

It was a civilized, well organised, peaceful situation before the socalled 'Arab Spring', wasnt it. Assad is no madman, in contrast to popular belief. He can be reasoned with, Im quite sure of that. Again, Im not defending the Ba'athist regime; Im saying stability is gained with the present government regaining control, and with these disorganised insurgent groups being motivated to disarm to form a legitimate political entity.

Edited by Phaeton80
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Farmer77

It was a civilized, well organised, peaceful situation before the socalled 'Arab Spring', wasnt it. Assad is no madman, in contrast to popular belief. He can be reasoned with, Im quite sure of that. Again, Im not defending the Ba'athist regime; Im saying stability is gained with the present government regaining control, and with these disorganised insurgent groups being motivated to disarm to form a legitimate political entity.

Here in the US the government repealed the anti propoganda laws. Its honestly impossible for most Americans to form an educated opinion on this issue because there is zero honest coverage. Everybody (media and politicians) is in line for that corporate handout.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/color-revolutions-getting-our-facts-straight-on-the-arab-spring/5379479

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EEHC

It was a civilized, well organised, peaceful situation before the socalled 'Arab Spring', wasnt it. Assad is no madman, in contrast to popular belief. He can be reasoned with, Im quite sure of that. Again, Im not defending the Ba'athist regime; Im saying stability is gained with the present government regaining control, and with these disorganised insurgent groups being motivated to disarm to form a legitimate political entity.

I guess Egypt was in a ''peaceful situation'' too before Mohammad Morsi was ousted, when millions of protesters descended on the streets.

Maybe for us it looked that way but for those living in a corrupted, authoritarian system; I am not so sure. A hoax? Go asking them.

As for the Syrian regime, it will be difficult to regain control since the Syrian Army is shriking by the day and remain mostly ineffective despite having the best Russian tanks, planes and weapons available to them. They will need to compromise with secular rebels or I see little hope of improvement.

Edited by Sam.

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Phaeton80

Here in the US the government repealed the anti propoganda laws. Its honestly impossible for most Americans to form an educated opinion on this issue because there is zero honest coverage. Everybody (media and politicians) is in line for that corporate handout.

http://www.globalres...-spring/5379479

I feel I need to mention the like is meant as an agreement, because I am gravely concerned with the point you just made (as in dangerous) - and thus thoroughly dislike it. Especially in context of that m*ron Trump's success and what not. If that man ever gets into the whitehouse, G*d have mercy on all of us.

Edited by Phaeton80

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EEHC

Here in the US the government repealed the anti propoganda laws. Its honestly impossible for most Americans to form an educated opinion on this issue because there is zero honest coverage. Everybody (media and politicians) is in line for that corporate handout.

http://www.globalres...-spring/5379479

I am not sure that I would trust Global Research either (the link you provided) since it's runned by conspiracy theorists, I think we should be skeptical of that also.

Edited by Sam.
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Farmer77

I am not sure that I would trust Global Research (the link you just provided) since it's runned by conspiracy theorists, I think we should be skeptical of that also.

Im skeptical of EVERYTHING LOL....at this point i feel like Woody Harrelson in 2012.

That dude was nuts, but he wasnt wrong!

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and then

Adding that talking from a position of a US 'democratic system', where two parties provide a selection of runners who in turn succeed soully by virtue of corporate funding.. would be an absolute joke ofcourse. No offence intended.

Dissatisfied with the current regime, P80? Wait til you meet the NEW boss... You'll be begging for the good old days - if we survive it.

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and then

This is an interesting article from a reasonably respected source. It runs down why the US should just let Putin deal with Syria.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/29/syria-putin-russia-assad-obama/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Campaign&utm_term=%2AEditors%20Picks

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Phaeton80

Dissatisfied with the current regime, P80? Wait til you meet the NEW boss... You'll be begging for the good old days - if we survive it.

The system AT, the system. The world will never be thesame if that madman comes to power.

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EEHC

This is an interesting article from a reasonably respected source. It runs down why the US should just let Putin deal with Syria.

http://foreignpolicy...=*Editors Picks

We don't really know about Putin's intentions in Syria. He may only be looking to carve an Alawite state for his client Assad from Damascus to the coastal region. This seems like a more realistic option since Russia will still be able to protect the Tartus Naval facility from there. Iran may be satisfied with that, as long as they keep supply lines with the Hezbollah. If that's the case, it doesn't really solve anything for us. ISIS is not going to disappear on it's own and more civilians might look towards Europe.

Edited by Sam.
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robinrenee

Of course. In fact, the ridiculous and foolhardy fashion with which the various proxy "armies" were arranged over there, with mercenaries able to transition between "moderate" and "extremist" factions and back again, played right into the Kremlin's hands. Putin simply declared all of them terrorists and began bombing the lot of them. The Saudi/Qatari/Israeli/US alliance could not have been more stupid...and now the Russia/Iran/China alliance look to be the stabilizing influence in the ME. Go figure.

Sad, but true... :hmm:

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robinrenee

Some of these same geniuses were behind the Ukraine coup d'etat as well. One wonders why they have grown so desperate.

I think they've grown desperate because of the economy. The "warlords" need a war to bail out the economy... again...

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ian hacktorp

Abject humiliation for the Israeli/Saudi/US-PNAC-neocon blood-lusting, war-mongering, hate-masters of chaos?

U.S. Backs Off Hard Line on Syrian President’s Future

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-backs-off-hard-line-on-syrian-presidents-future-1446161540

The Obama administration entered a crucial round of international talks on Syria’s war prepared to accept a deal that leaves President Bashar al-Assad in place for several months or more during the transition to a new government.

It's over for them. Bush family will hole up in Paraguay, John McCain's red, festering boil of a head will explode, and Bibi will be found in fetal position, sucking thumb, babbling incoherently...

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Dark_Grey

Abject humiliation for the Israeli/Saudi/US-PNAC-neocon blood-lusting, war-mongering, hate-masters of chaos?

U.S. Backs Off Hard Line on Syrian President’s Future

http://www.wsj.com/a...ture-1446161540

It's over for them. Bush family will hole up in Paraguay, John McCain's red, festering boil of a head will explode, and Bibi will be found in fetal position, sucking thumb, babbling incoherently...

If this is accurate, it's a political white flag waving.

Putin played this situation like a fiddle. He saw the perfect moment to bring Soviet-esque Russia back in to the lime light. I believe he didn't want to mess this up because of the opportunity to be the hero (for once,) while demeaning and almost embarrassing America on the world stage at the same time. Everyone wants ISIS gone so Putin took full advantage of America's obvious and deliberate lack of motivation. It IS in Russia's best interest to wipe out ISIS as quickly and cleanly as possible, to make a real statement about their capabilities and take American morale down a few notches at the same time.

Carefully placed public digs at Obama, Syrian rebels, the economy, etc...it's a propaganda war to show that Russia that is no longer the boogeyman - America has assumed that unfortunate title now.

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bmk1245

[...] It IS in Russia's best interest to wipe out ISIS as quickly and cleanly as possible, to make a real statement about their capabilities and take American morale down a few notches at the same time.

[...]

Won't happen... Russian media already went on "silence" mode, i.e. no pompous bragging about "victories", no "40%", "60%", or whatever percentage they have "destroyed". And Syrian army (gov.) recently lost to ISIS some ground west of Palmyra, and some other places:

syria_20151012-20151029_zpspzqlg8lp.gif

Edited by bmk1245
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Phaeton80
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EEHC

Abject humiliation for the Israeli/Saudi/US-PNAC-neocon blood-lusting, war-mongering, hate-masters of chaos?

U.S. Backs Off Hard Line on Syrian President’s Future

http://www.wsj.com/a...ture-1446161540

It's over for them. Bush family will hole up in Paraguay, John McCain's red, festering boil of a head will explode, and Bibi will be found in fetal position, sucking thumb, babbling incoherently...

If the article is accurate, I don't see it as a big deal. Assad staying a couple more months as President while a transition is organized and then stepping down seems like an acceptable compromise as long as there is a guarantee. He's not going anywhere right now with Russia involved anyway.

All sides in these negotiations will need to find the middle ground or it's a waste of time.

Edited by Sam.

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ian hacktorp

I think they've grown desperate because of the economy. The "warlords" need a war to bail out the economy... again...

You may well be right about that. They are acting like cornered dogs and can still bite. The plane that went down in Sinai was reportedly filled with vacation Russian elites headed back to St. Petersburg. Such a criminal act would be the MO of the Israeli/Saudi/Qatari/US-PNAC-Neocon thugs using their convenient ISIS proxy bogeyman patsy.

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Farmer77

You may well be right about that. They are acting like cornered dogs and can still bite. The plane that went down in Sinai was reportedly filled with vacation Russian elites headed back to St. Petersburg. Such a criminal act would be the MO of the Israeli/Saudi/Qatari/US-PNAC-Neocon thugs using their convenient ISIS proxy bogeyman patsy.

The transparency is astounding. Yet millions of Americans will continue to rant about islamofascism and use this incident as a pretext for more war.

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and then

The transparency is astounding. Yet millions of Americans will continue to rant about islamofascism and use this incident as a pretext for more war.

Transparency? It's as clear as mud unless you have your magic glasses.

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Farmer77

Transparency? It's as clear as mud unless you have your magic glasses.

There is a clearly established pattern of the US using guerilla organizations to do their bidding in proxy wars. Should this claim of Russian oligarchs being on this plane bare out then noone should be shocked that a US funded terrorist organization is the one that took the aircraft down. That serves two purposes, harms Russia who has flatly called the US out on their BS lately , and gives the propaganda machine publicity tool for fear mongering and money raising.

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