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LucidElement

Russia in Syria

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and then

It also must be said that a lot of their latitude in defending their State came via the means of billions of US dollars each year in Military Aid in the last 40-50 years. Feel proud, their resilience is also thanks to your tax contributions.

Quite proud thank you. The disconnect for the anti Israel/"Zionist" crowd for those who aren't actual Israel haters (That's you I think) is the point of Palestinian intentions. Their leaders regularly, OPENLY, call for ALL THE LAND and the destruction of the descendants of apes and swine. Not my words, 1, THEIR'S. If this were not the case then I'd push for more compromise by the Israelis. Demanding Israel acquiesce to Abbas' demand is tantamount to asking Israel to fence themselves onto an indefensible position that will bring war sooner rather than later. Those who support the Palestinians simply refuse to acknowledge this fact.

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I don't believe Russia nor China want hegemony. Maybe some old heads from the Soviet Politburo days may still have dreams of grandeur but definitely China doesn't, at least not militarily. IMO this isn't a direct Russia/China vs US/West scuffle and won't escalate (I hope) into any major war. It's more of a show of support for their allies. I suppose Putin got sick of many years of western interference and decided to do something for his Shiite friends. Also, it helps take away the focus on the Ukraine.

I hope you are right. My fear is that Putin has become so emboldened by Obama's weakness that he might well overstep and cause an escalation

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RavenHawk

Delusional? In case you haven't figured it out. Russia is the big yellow one and all the blue dots are NATO basis. But you must be right, they're probably pointing the missiles southwards, towards that warmongering nation, Israel.

Sigh!

Let’s go over it one more time. What do you think the need for all of those bases are? Do you think it might be to hold Soviet/Russian aggression in check? If the intent was conquest, it would have happened already.

Washingtons objective is to pull Russia into its sphere of influence. What better way than to encroach into Russia's sphere of influence.

That’s certainly another possibility and what is wrong with that? Shouldn’t all nations be in the same sphere of influence? Isn’t that the idea behind the concept of the UN?

Remember reading about the Cuban missile crises? Well it's not much different to what's happening now. In fact it's uncanny.

That was our interest in keeping the Shah in power. Iran had been a key piece in controlling the Soviets. But also the Medinan radicals.

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Black Red Devil

Quite proud thank you. The disconnect for the anti Israel/"Zionist" crowd for those who aren't actual Israel haters (That's you I think) is the point of Palestinian intentions. Their leaders regularly, OPENLY, call for ALL THE LAND and the destruction of the descendants of apes and swine. Not my words, 1, THEIR'S. If this were not the case then I'd push for more compromise by the Israelis. Demanding Israel acquiesce to Abbas' demand is tantamount to asking Israel to fence themselves onto an indefensible position that will bring war sooner rather than later. Those who support the Palestinians simply refuse to acknowledge this fact.

Can you provide me with a link where Abbas says this (from a reliable source)?

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Black Red Devil

Sigh!

Let's go over it one more time. What do you think the need for all of those bases are? Do you think it might be to hold Soviet/Russian aggression in check? If the intent was conquest, it would have happened already.

Yeah right! Russia was accused of aggression and we nearly had WW3 when they wanted to place missiles on Cuba back in the 60's. Therefore by the same principles the NATO basis surrounding Russia are an aggression. The fact that they didn't respond to this aggression is the main reason we didn't have any major conflicts.

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Black Red Devil

Obama is just an executive in charge of the Greater Middle East project. It's ongoing and from what i read organic with a life of its own. They foster the conditions and if they take root they support it. Syria should have been solved 4 years ago and saved the people of Syria alot of grief and heartache, instead it became a cruel work in progress. If the West is losing Syria it's by there own making. Hillary is right to state that a no fly zone should be in place over Syria BUT only 4 years too late.

I don't understand what a no-fly zone over Syria would achieve. Nobody has any aircraft to fly. Battles are mainly taking place on the ground.

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Can you provide me with a link where Abbas says this (from a reliable source)?

Reliable sources are difficult to come by when the reliability of ANY source that disagrees with you is called into question. For a start though:

"...There is no such thing as ‘Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

And here is the PLO executive committee member, Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper, Trouw.

"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.

And statements by various Hamas members:http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.Vg9F2flViko

PA leader Jibril Ajoub:http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=9153

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NewAge1

I don't understand what a no-fly zone over Syria would achieve. Nobody has any aircraft to fly. Battles are mainly taking place on the ground.

This idea was originally intended to prevent the Assad regime for carrying airstrikes against the Western-backed rebels, nothing more.

Edited by Draco20

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Harry_Dresden

I don't understand what a no-fly zone over Syria would achieve. Nobody has any aircraft to fly. Battles are mainly taking place on the ground.

No not any more but that was not always the case. In the early years of the Syrian civil war, it was the Syrian airforce that largely stayed intact and loyal to Assad. As the war progressed more and more airbases, pilots and aircraft fell into rebel hands, limiting Assads only real advantage to the point were he was months away from collapse. It's no coincidence that Russian help has come in the form of air support as this gives Assad the only advantage against his numerically superior enemy. A no fly zone back then would have meant Assad's defeat.

I remember Turkey tried for a no-fly zone a couple of years ago but the idea was scrapped due to the hard-core and "moderate" successes on the battlefield and Russian and Chinese objections in the United Nations. Look at what has happened these past couple of days. 40 Russian sorties have demoralised Islamic insurgents and given Assad breathing space and the ability to counter attack. One must seriously ask whether America and it's allies actually performed 7000 sorties and whether they were on target if Islamic State is still the largest army in Syria.

Edited by Harry_Dresden

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No not any more but that was not always the case. In the early years of the Syrian civil war, it was the Syrian airforce that largely stayed intact and loyal to Assad. As the war progressed more and more airbases, pilots and aircraft fell into rebel hands, limiting Assads only real advantage to the point were he was months away from collapse. It's no coincidence that Russian help has come in the form of air support as this gives Assad the only advantage against his numerically superior enemy. A no fly zone back then would have meant Assad's defeat.

I remember Turkey tried for a no-fly zone a couple of years ago but the idea was scrapped due to the hard-core and "moderate" successes on the battlefield. Look at what has happened these past couple of days. 40 Russian sorties have demoralised Islamic insurgents and given Assad breathing space. One must seriously ask whether America and it's allies actually performed 7000 sorties and whether they were on target if Islamic State is still the largest army in Syria.

All I have seen reported on our efforts are that most of the time the RoE are so strict that pilots almost always come back to base with unspent ordnance aboard.
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NewAge1

Reliable sources are difficult to come by when the reliability of ANY source that disagrees with you is called into question. For a start though:

"...There is no such thing as ‘Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

And here is the PLO executive committee member, Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper, Trouw.

"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.

And statements by various Hamas members:http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.Vg9F2flViko

PA leader Jibril Ajoub:http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=9153

You can do better than ''PalWatch'', a biased right-wing pro-Zionist organization. I don't think that's what he meant by 'reliable'.

Edited by Draco20
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You can do better than ''PalWatch'', which is a biased right-wing pro-Zionist organization. I don't think that's what he meant by 'reliable'.

Care to cite any specific facts that have been disproved from PalWatch? And it was only one source. He tends to poo poo ANY source that disagrees with his outlook yet cannot cite factual discrepancies from them.

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Harry_Dresden

All I have seen reported on our efforts are that most of the time the RoE are so strict that pilots almost always come back to base with unspent ordnance aboard.

Yes interesting fact. I've read this also and am flabbergasted that American RoE seem to not be working. The fact that it hasn't been rectified all these years speaks volumes. But lets be serious the only real opponent Assad has is Islamic State and without Islamic State there wouldn't be a Syrian civil war anymore so the fact that the USAF has to abide by draconian rules indirectly favours the war against Assad which is in itself what the West wants.

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Shiloh17

Care to cite any specific facts that have been disproved from PalWatch? And it was only one source. He tends to poo poo ANY source that disagrees with his outlook yet cannot cite factual discrepancies from them.

Joel 3:4

Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

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NewAge1

Care to cite any specific facts that have been disproved from PalWatch? And it was only one source. He tends to poo poo ANY source that disagrees with his outlook yet cannot cite factual discrepancies from them.

You made a claim about Abbas, it is for you to support it with reasonable and objective sources. ''PalWatch'' does not qualify as such.

It's owned by the Israeli right wing and funded by Netanyahu's governement.

Edited by Draco20
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Black Red Devil

No not any more but that was not always the case. In the early years of the Syrian civil war, it was the Syrian airforce that largely stayed intact and loyal to Assad. As the war progressed more and more airbases, pilots and aircraft fell into rebel hands, limiting Assads only real advantage to the point were he was months away from collapse. It's no coincidence that Russian help has come in the form of air support as this gives Assad the only advantage against his numerically superior enemy. A no fly zone back then would have meant Assad's defeat.

I remember Turkey tried for a no-fly zone a couple of years ago but the idea was scrapped due to the hard-core and "moderate" successes on the battlefield and Russian and Chinese objections in the United Nations. Look at what has happened these past couple of days. 40 Russian sorties have demoralised Islamic insurgents and given Assad breathing space and the ability to counter attack. One must seriously ask whether America and it's allies actually performed 7000 sorties and whether they were on target if Islamic State is still the largest army in Syria.

I've asked myself that same question. Is it because they're being extra-careful of civilian casualties or they're just trying to restrict troop movements, not actually offend (or both)?

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Black Red Devil

Care to cite any specific facts that have been disproved from PalWatch? And it was only one source. He tends to poo poo ANY source that disagrees with his outlook yet cannot cite factual discrepancies from them.

This is what you're claiming Palestinian leadership is openly calling for:

"Their leaders regularly, OPENLY, call for ALL THE LAND and the destruction of the descendants of apes and swine. Not my words, 1, THEIR'S. If this were not the case then I'd push for more compromise by the Israelis. Demanding Israel acquiesce to Abbas' demand is tantamount to asking Israel to fence themselves onto an indefensible position that will bring war sooner rather than later. Those who support the Palestinians simply refuse to acknowledge this fact."

Abbas is the current official Palestinian leader. Show me a link to your claims so we can acknowledge your facts.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Mr.United_Nations

Why you guys are talking about palestine and Israel...again.

Id look at Egypts reaction to the Muslim Brotherhood, they prevented an islamic takeover by arresting key leaders and spokespeople. The brothethood movement ended.

Im not sure Assad had thought of this way to quell protests.

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Leonardo

No I don't. I don't think I've hated anyone as much as I hate Obama. And let's get this out of the way. It has nothing to do with his race. He is as phony as the day is long. If you've heard me say this once, you've heard me say it many times. I voted against this guy twice. Not for the color of his skin but because of the content of his character.

In the movie "JFK", you see the reaction of some people that hated Kennedy when he was assassinated. And it was truly distasteful to me that people could hate a President like that. I couldn't understand that but everything changes. Yes, he was a Democrat but you knew he loved this country and had the best interests of this nation at heart. That has been the case with every President up till today. The Presidents between JFK and now, may have made mistakes, or were misguided, or whatever, but you knew they were doing their best. And because of that, a love or respect grew. That is not the case with this current Administration. And if some mishap were to befall him, it would be good riddance. He has over stayed his welcome.

Obama could come to my home and spend hours personally trying to convince me that he loves this nation and would fail in doing so. I see through his façade. As a baby, if someone of poor character held me, my mom told me that I would spit on them. Well, I'm still doing it today but rhetorically. How much I wish to be a baby again and be held by Obama. :)

While this is off-topic, I would suggest your real issue lies not with how Mr Obama views "America", but how you do. You appear to have a rather narrow view of what "America" is, what the nation stands for in principles, and who are "Americans".

Perhaps Mr Obama is not the one who is "betraying America"?

Now, a bit more on-topic, I just read this article on the BBC website...

The medical charity MSF says at least three of its staff were killed in the Afghan city of Kunduz after a clinic was hit by an air strike on Saturday.

US forces were carrying out air strikes at the time. The Nato alliance has admitted the clinic may have been hit.

MSF says more than 30 staff are unaccounted for. The hospital had 105 patients at the time.

There has been intense fighting in Kunduz since Taliban fighters swept into the northern city on Monday.

...and it rather puts the hypocritical complaints by the US (and other, US-allied nations) about the "indiscriminate nature of Russia's actions", the "killing of civilians", and the "effect on the populace with respect further radicalisation" into perspective.

Everything that Russia is accused of by "the West", is something "the West" themselves are guilty of, in every theatre of military action they are currently engaged in.

Edited by Leonardo
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Deleted

Yes but in all fairness, with out those billions Israel would have been wiped off the map. The Jews deserve to live in their ancestral lands in peace and prosperity. And i would feel proud that if my tax dollars found their way to Israel it would be to stop another holocaust. My issue is that I'm just annoyed with all the skullduggery and deception going on. You turn on the telly and all they do is repeat the same nonsensical anti Assad propaganda. Even the Israeli leaders are unconvincing when they state their case for more war to remove a tyrant so Islamic headcutters can take over.

Actually Israel is not their ancestral home, its Syria they immigrated to Canaan (original name of Palestina/Israel). And in my opinion after the second world war they should have gotten a part of Germany where they could have founded their country, but well now it is as it is.

Edited by hellwyr
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ExpandMyMind

While this is off-topic, I would suggest your real issue lies not with how Mr Obama views "America", but how you do. You appear to have a rather narrow view of what "America" is, what the nation stands for in principles, and who are "Americans".

Perhaps Mr Obama is not the one who is "betraying America"?

Now, a bit more on-topic, I just read this article on the BBC website...

...and it rather puts the hypocritical complaints by the US (and other, US-allied nations) about the "indiscriminate nature of Russia's actions", the "killing of civilians", and the "effect on the populace with respect further radicalisation" into perspective.

Everything that Russia is accused of by "the West", is something "the West" themselves are guilty of, in every theatre of military action they are currently engaged in.

I read that article earlier in disbelief. Unbelievable.

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jeem

You can do better than ''PalWatch'', a biased right-wing pro-Zionist organization. I don't think that's what he meant by 'reliable'.

i call PalWatch Mossad's propaganda wing

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and then

i call PalWatch Mossad's propaganda wing

Care to cite any inaccuracies?

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This is what you're claiming Palestinian leadership is openly calling for:

"Their leaders regularly, OPENLY, call for ALL THE LAND and the destruction of the descendants of apes and swine. Not my words, 1, THEIR'S. If this were not the case then I'd push for more compromise by the Israelis. Demanding Israel acquiesce to Abbas' demand is tantamount to asking Israel to fence themselves onto an indefensible position that will bring war sooner rather than later. Those who support the Palestinians simply refuse to acknowledge this fact."

Abbas is the current official Palestinian leader. Show me a link to your claims so we can acknowledge your facts.

First, he is not the only leader, in fact he is struggling to retain his power. Second, he is the mouth piece of the Palestinians who continually shake down the West for cash so why would he admit openly what HIS plans are? Third, I don't speak or read Arabic so I cannot quote him in English and finally, if you deny the goals of the Palestinians being removal of Israel from all the land then you are swallowing an awful lot of propaganda that it pleases you to repeat. Since you can justly say the same of me I anticipate that any source would be sufficient for you except one that reflects your worldview. And the last sentence of my quote you posted stands acknowledged.

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NewAge1

Russia Hits IS In Syria Heartland In Defiance Of The West

''Beirut (AFP) - Russia bombed the Islamic State group's Syrian stronghold Saturday and vowed to press its aerial campaign despite criticism from Washington and its allies that its military action was strengthening the jihadists.

[...]

A senior officer in Moscow said Russia’s latest raids had forced hundreds of IS militants to flee.

"Panic and desertion have started in their ranks," said Colonel General Andrei Kartapolov, from the Russian General Staff.

"Some 600 mercenaries have abandoned their positions and are trying to find their way into Europe."

Link: http://news.yahoo.co...-150148206.html

Edited by Draco20

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