The Origins of Religion

[Dhurfjooydig]

3 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Now you are engaging in cheap propaganda.

Is he?  Then let me ask again ... who is this "we", in light of my post:

10 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Somewhere around half the world's population — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day. Who exactly is the "we" you referenced?

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[back to earth]

Why did you say that Frank ?       Its reality !   Why is it propaganda to include the starving  and displaced masses of the world within the definition of  'we' and 'us' .  Its actually  'propergander'     (ie.  its true {proper) and you go have a look ( gander ) . 

I imagine the opposite actually applies !   It would be propaganda to exclude them ! 

Even here , we got some of the WORST record in the 'free world' regarding how we have treated and still treat our Indigenous . 

[Frank Merton]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

Is he?  Then let me ask again ... who is this "we", in light of my post:

 

We know this; publishing pictures of starving children tells us nothing.  It is cheap propaganda.

[back to earth]

Ohh, now I get you  now  .... it  seems it  isnt propaganda as much  ( not my understanding of the word )  ... I am assuming you are objecting to my usage of 'emotive media'  to display well known information,  going on what you now have written . 

 

I did that as some seemed to be arguing against this well known information ? 

[Frank Merton]

26 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Ohh, now I get you  now  .... it  seems it  isnt propaganda as much  ( not my understanding of the word )  ... I am assuming you are objecting to my usage of 'emotive media'  to display well known information,  going on what you now have written . 

 

I did that as some seemed to be arguing against this well known information ? 

That is kinda how I would define propaganda.  That there are starving children we know; it is not for the reasons you say (at least that is only a part of the story) but what you did was just cheap propaganda.  Kinda like showing pictures of aborted babies.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

More precisely, a transnational capitalist class:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnational_capitalist_class

... of which religion is an integral though covert player.

I hate to break it to you, but the relative degree of your 'freedom' has been factored into an acceptable level of allowed 'freedom' by the ruling class, and your internal narrative of 'freedom' was scripted and fed to you. Your life has been reduced to moving in sync with carefully designed ideological and marketing strategies that have been taught you, from birth to old age ... how to look, act, think, feel, believe, and—most important—consume.

Our hidden, greedy masters refer to you as a “consumption unit” and have guided you through “consumer life cycles” from infancy through your senior years. Within each consumer cycle, a limited number of consumer lifestyle options with short shelf lives are carefully constructed for maximum profit by those who own these commerce infrastructures. What you buy today will be obsolete or unfashionable tomorrow, as they were planned to be. _­­­The same strategy is used by purveyors of ideas and shapers of opinion and belief. Superficial, polarized debate is provoked and discreetly encouraged in society within the narrow parameters of provided information templates, ready-to-wear narratives, and institutionalized beliefs, giving you the impression that you're knowledgeable and freely participating. In actuality, you're only choosing a prepackaged option within a micromanaged script that benefits those who write and own the script. Those who cannot or will not fit themselves into these well-strategized structures and seductive templates are disadvantaged, marginalized, and often scapegoated and punished.

This isn’t freedom … it’s a factory, and you're both the product and the consumer. Nope ... you're not free, but you've been culturally conditioned to think you are freer than any human being has ever been in all of history.  

yUP conspiracy theorist. The real world  does not work like that, with such a simple dialectic  or narrative

You have no idea how much freedom i have compared especially to any human being in the past  I can travel around the world for a few weeks salary whereas in the  past most humans never went more than a day or two from their home town .

  I live in a country designated by the UN as the 3rd  best in the world on indicators of human well being,  and i can basically do anything i want  without fear of retribution as long as it is legal.  I   had access to an excellent education allowing me wide knowledge and  understanding of many many disciplines, all for free. Because i have free hospital medical and chemist   or very nearly so i am also free economically. I can live like a king  without working  and when i did work, I could  support a family  in a very good condition working only about  24 hours a week.   i don't fly anywhere for environmental reasons, and i can travel anywhere in australia without even giving my name or details ( unless i commit a crime like speeding).  Thus there are no economic, social ,political or religious, factors which restrict the freedom of my mind or my behaviours, except those necessary for a safe and functioning society. 

I hate to tell you, but not all of us have been indoctrinated, as you have been, into the narrative you espouse  

Funny that i haven't bought any new clothes for 12 years and only then because we lost everything in a bushfire ( We buy all our clothes apart from jocks and socks second hand form charity shops)  Funny that i can live comfortably on about 35000 dollars a year and can eliminate water and electricity costs by using rainwater and solar energy. Funny that i never buy  a new item like a phone or a television or car until the old one no longer works and can not be economically repaired  Funny that i can live buy buying fresh fruit and veges  and growing my own on about 5 dollars a day total food bill for 2.  I guess the indoctrination didn't take with me  But then i read  "The man who ate the world"  (the one by frederik pohl ) when i was a teenager, and have been aware of the need for sustainable living all of my life    "The waste makers"  by vance packard was written in about 1960 so this is not a new idea ANd it has NOTHING to do with religions. My parents lived through the great depression and taught us never to waste anything.  

Might I guess you have been to uni recently, or are still going? The sort pf  polemics you indulge in here are common in such places, but a dose of the real world usually sorts out most.  The rest become the die hard grizzled old revolutionaries of the counterculture.  

The best thing you can do is to live by your principles, be an example, and make a difference. 

You are right about effect, but not cause.  Until each human being decides to live sustainably and to share the resources of our planet more equitably, two things will happen. We will inexorably use up the non renewable resources available and we  will cause poverty, malnutrition and conflict, because of the basic lack of equality in access to the world's resources.  

When people realise that health, happiness, self esteem, freedom,  and all our basic needs are met from  within, rather than through material possessions beyond those needed for food shelter warmth etc,   THEN the world will be transformed.  When humans realise that, in an environment of plenty, the eating habits of scarcity will kill them, then  we will eat less and waste a lot less. 

 For me, christianity is one of the powerful motivators for sustainability, freedom, and equality for human beings. Although there are other drivers, religion is so embedded and powerful that it can be the most powerful motivator and driver for change. 

Really if it wasnt so serious i could only laugh at the   idea that, in any way, i am;  disadvantaged, marginalized, and often scapegoated and punished.

It is almost impossible, in the west, for an educated person to be marginalised  or disadvantaged, because knowledge and education are the prime tools of empowerment in a knowledge based society. 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I think you describe the state of things fairly accurately; what you miss is that we all are prospering, probably because of just what you describe.  The myths of modern society do blind us to the greed and corruption of the rulers, but their greed and corruption is to an extent a lubricant that keeps things from being locked in place by lawyers and moralists.

IMO it is the greed and corruption (of ethics and moralities)  of the ordinary man which allows our rulers to gain power over us. We enable them through our selfishness and greed. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Somewhere around half the world's population — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day. Who exactly is the "we" you referenced?

All humans benefit by human progress and material well being.   However the benefit is not equitable Thus mortality rates have dropped in developing countries Women are gaining more political and economic power and thus birth rates are reducing and by the middle of this century will be a t replacement level   Life expectancies are increasing  but indeed the world remains divided unfairly  Wiping out diseases like small pox or polio benefits humans in all countries   So does improved techniques in food production so does a simple thing like the provision of electricity which also is one of the most effective ways of reducing birth rates and thus the mortality of women and children in childbirth. 

If your 2.50  a day buys you adequate food, shelter, clothing and medical care, then it is enough to live on, but, of course, usually it does not, and developed country's inhabitants live lives of comparative luxury (in australia even the lowest paid or unemployed person CAN, with govt assistance, find housing, shelter, food, and will have free medical care)  

 Along with a lot of other money we gave about 30 dollars a week to an organisation which provided basic,cheap and nutritious food to children who would otherwise have starved to death    That was enough to feed thirty young children and keep them alive  for as long as we continued to provide it.  we maintained that and increased it a little over the years, for over thirty years.

 When we began  It actually cost them 21 dollars a week to feed those thirty  kids with healthy nutritious food,  and they used the rest for other projects. .  In 2008 it had risen to 25 cents per day to feed a child, and today unicef can feed a child for a day on 50 cents.  For the cost of a cup of coffee you can still feed a child for a week.  (a cappuccino at my local bakery costs me $ 3.50.)

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Dhurfjooydig]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

IMO it is the greed and corruption (of ethics and moralities)  of the ordinary man which allows our rulers to gain power over us. We enable them through our selfishness and greed. 

lol ... classic 'blame the victim' mentality. The function of ruling includes the responsibility and inevitability of setting a moral example  ... because power always determines the prevailing standard of morality / ethics. Leaders set the moral / ethical tone of nations, corporations, and community.

Modern society has been culturally conditioned by powerful forces that function in the service of the ruling class ... educational systems, the multibillion dollar advertising industry, the 6 corporations that own 90% of all media outlets (in the U.S.), the tech industry that provides electronic devices (that have quickly become necessary to own) so that people  stay tethered and 'connected' to the dictates of the ruling class 24/7. Perhaps you did escape consumer conditioning ... good for you (I'm betting that white privilege played a part in this escape) ... but you are not the measure of humanity. Most people don't have the luxury of stepping out of consumer conformity. For you to say that it is the greed and corruption of ordinary men  (and presumably women too, even though you specifically omit them) who would be at the risk of social / career ostracism if they rebelled against the dictates of consumer society ... that actually rule the actions of our rulers ... is to turn reality on its head (real 'alice in wonderland' stuff) and reeks of privilege. 

This statement by Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) blasts your fantasy that it is ordinary men who set the moral tone:

“If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, is it not possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing about it? The recent practice of propaganda has proved that it is possible, at least up to a certain point and within certain limits.” He continues: “We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. … In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses”  - Edward Bernays, 1928.

Edited May 21, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[Frank Merton]

48 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

lol ... classic 'blame the victim' mentality. The function of ruling includes the responsibility and inevitability of setting a moral example  ... because power always determines the prevailing standard of morality / ethics. Leaders set the moral / ethical tone of nations, corporations, and community.

Modern society has been culturally conditioned by powerful forces that function in the service of the ruling class ... educational systems, the multibillion dollar advertising industry, the 6 corporations that own 90% of all media outlets (in the U.S.), the tech industry that provides electronic devices (that have quickly become necessary to own) so that people  stay tethered and 'connected' to the dictates of the ruling class 24/7. Perhaps you did escape consumer conditioning ... good for you (I'm betting that white privilege played a part in this escape) ... but you are not the measure of humanity. Most people don't have the luxury of stepping out of consumer conformity. For you to say that it is the greed and corruption of ordinary men  (and presumably women too, even though you specifically omit them) who would be at the risk of social / career ostracism if they rebelled against the dictates of consumer society ... that actually rule the actions of our rulers ... is to turn reality on its head (real 'alice in wonderland' stuff) and reeks of privilege. 

This statement by Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) blasts your fantasy that it is ordinary men who set the moral tone:

“If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, is it not possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing about it? The recent practice of propaganda has proved that it is possible, at least up to a certain point and within certain limits.” He continues: “We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. … In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses”  - Edward Bernays, 1928.

What ideology are you preaching?

[Dhurfjooydig]

2 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

What ideology are you preaching?

Hmmm ... why don't you tell me. I'm just deconstructing a prevailing ideology. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

lol ... classic 'blame the victim' mentality. The function of ruling includes the responsibility and inevitability of setting a moral example  ... because power always determines the prevailing standard of morality / ethics. Leaders set the moral / ethical tone of nations, corporations, and community.

Modern society has been culturally conditioned by powerful forces that function in the service of the ruling class ... educational systems, the multibillion dollar advertising industry, the 6 corporations that own 90% of all media outlets (in the U.S.), the tech industry that provides electronic devices (that have quickly become necessary to own) so that people  stay tethered and 'connected' to the dictates of the ruling class 24/7. Perhaps you did escape consumer conditioning ... good for you (I'm betting that white privilege played a part in this escape) ... but you are not the measure of humanity. Most people don't have the luxury of stepping out of consumer conformity. For you to say that it is the greed and corruption of ordinary men  (and presumably women too, even though you specifically omit them) who would be at the risk of social / career ostracism if they rebelled against the dictates of consumer society ... that actually rule the actions of our rulers ... is to turn reality on its head (real 'alice in wonderland' stuff) and reeks of privilege. 

This statement by Edward Bernays (nephew of Sigmund Freud) blasts your fantasy that it is ordinary men who set the moral tone:

“If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, is it not possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing about it? The recent practice of propaganda has proved that it is possible, at least up to a certain point and within certain limits.” He continues: “We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. … In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses”  - Edward Bernays, 1928.

 No it is NOT blame the victim. It is an open and honest assessment of human nature  if each individual had a set of ethical guidelines and lived by them, first the world would not be as it is, and second politicians would not be able to manipulate ordinary peole We ENABLE then to manipulate us via our own greed, selfishness, materialism  and desires. What you are doing is taking away the concept of personal responsibility and saying the world is in a mess because of companies corporations and govts.  And yet the biggest offenders outside china are democratically elected  governments.  People in parts of the world die and suffer only because you and I and  other ordinary people are greedy and selfish and wont give up any of our wealth, resources, income  or privilege to help others.  If peole in developed countries  donated 5% of their income poverty and malnutrition would cease to exist in the developing world   

 

White privilege LOL i came from a poor working class family and gained a scholarship to complete school and uni. But I AM lucky to live in australia, one of the world's richest and socially just societies according to swiss and UN sources.

if you had ANY idea of  Australia's education system and its values and priorities you would realise how ridiculous your posturing is to me.

It teaches cooperation socialism,  environmental sustainability  reduced consumption and personal responsibility for what we consume   it is anti capitalism and especially globalisation and big corporations  Most teachers who come through the university system are basically social democrats,  with strong commitment to social justice, sustainable living, and equality of opportunity    Cooperative endeavour and teamwork is emphasized over individual performance or competition. 

And lol In australia you can and damn well do say what you please. There are laws to protect you from unfair dismissal or punishment  Society is far more diverse and strong than you give it credit for  Ive never been criticised for my lifestyle although some can't understand why i live it .  The national broadcaster has just spent a whole week concentrating its programmes on overconsumption and waste and its effects on the environment,  so it is hardly a radical idea or lifestyle.

We have container deposit laws   (I get 10 cents for every  drink container i take to the recycler., usually about 5 dollars for a bag full) and cannot  get free plastic shopping bags when we go through the checkout. You either have to bring your own bags or pay for recycled plastic ones  We have recycling bins for each house and recycling depots in the smallest towns.  And this has been in place or occurring for  40 years or so There are laws penalising commercial polluters and laws to stop further land clearance, as well as to promote revegetation You can't open a mine or a business without passing strict environment checks.

Fnally, while psychology is a useful tool in advertising,  no, In an educated society with diverse media sources, One CANNOT "control the masses without their   knowing about it "

The masses do as they damn well please, driven by their own desires and greed, insecurities and fears  It is going to be along hard slog to make people realise that our wealth and privilege is unfair and unsustainable and a s individuals we will HAVE to give up something (but not an unreasonable amount)  to establish equality in the world. None actually NEEDS the latest electronic device, for example, the y simply desire it.  No one needs an overseas holiday every year (or even at all)  They simply desire it. No one NEEDS a new car every year The y just WANT one. if your desires and wants prevent another human from having their basic needs  like food shelter and medical help met, then your lifestyle  is unfair and  unsustainable and only YOU can make a different choice.  Your govt wont, until you tell it to and even then it will need a LOT of people telling it . . 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Dhurfjooydig]

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 No it is NOT blame the victim. It is an open and honest assessment of human nature  if each individual had a set of ethical guidelines and lived by them, first the world would not be as it is, and second politicians would not be able to manipulate ordinary peole We ENABLE then to manipulate us via our own greed, selfishness, materialism  and desires. What you are doing is taking away the concept of personal responsibility and saying the world is in a mess because of companies corporations and govts.  And yet the biggest offenders outside china are democratically elected  governments.  People in parts of the world die and suffer only because you and I and  other ordinary people are greedy and selfish and wont give up any of our wealth, resources, income  or privilege to help others.  If peole in developed countries  donated 5% of their income poverty and malnutrition would cease to exist in the developing world   

 

White privilege LOL i came from a poor working class family and gained a scholarship to complete school and uni. But I AM lucky to live in australia, one of the world's richest and socially just societies according to swiss and UN sources.

if you had ANY idea of  Australia's education system and its values and priorities you would realise how ridiculous your posturing is to me.

It teaches cooperation socialism,  environmental sustainability  reduced consumption and personal responsibility for what we consume   it is anti capitalism and especially globalisation and big corporations  Most teachers who come through the university system are basically social democrats,  with strong commitment to social justice, sustainable living, and equality of opportunity    Cooperative endeavour and teamwork is emphasized over individual performance or competition. 

And lol In australia you can and damn well do say what you please. There are laws to protect you from unfair dismissal or punishment  Society is far more diverse and strong than you give it credit for  Ive never been criticised for my lifestyle although some can't understand why i live it .  The national broadcaster has just spent a whole week concentrating its programmes on overconsumption and waste and its effects on the environment,  so it is hardly a radical idea or lifestyle.

We have container deposit laws   (I get 10 cents for every  drink container i take to the recycler., usually about 5 dollars for a bag full) and cannot  get free plastic shopping bags when we go through the checkout. You either have to bring your own bags or pay for recycled plastic ones  We have recycling bins for each house and recycling depots in the smallest towns.  And this has been in place or occurring for  40 years or so There are laws penalising commercial polluters and laws to stop further land clearance, as well as to promote revegetation You can't open a mine or a business without passing strict environment checks.

This entire post reeks of privilege. 

[Frank Merton]

9 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Hmmm ... why don't you tell me. I'm just deconstructing a prevailing ideology. 

I'm pretty sure I recognize preaching of an ideology when I see one.  The word "deconstructing" is a clue.  If not, let me tell you your posts are impossible to read; they sound like the diatribes of the world's extremist groups, all of which sound much the same to me, 

Why not  just engage what others say in a paragraph or two of plain, non-doctrinaire, English

[Dhurfjooydig]

1 minute ago, Frank Merton said:

Why not  just engage what others say in a paragraph or two of plain, non-doctrinaire, English

Got it ... 4 paragraphs (approx. 5 seconds of spoken conversation) is too much for you to comprehend. Here's a tip: you don't need to respond to my posts if they are beyond the limits of what you can intellectually process. 

[Frank Merton]

Just now, No Solid Ground said:

Got it ... 4 paragraphs (approx. 5 seconds of spoken conversation) is too much for you to comprehend. Here's a tip: you don't need to respond to my posts if they are beyond the limits of what you can intellectually process. 

OK, I'll ignore you.  You won't be the only one, so don't think because of this you are special.  I tend to ignore demagogues anyway, and the long-winded ones most of all.

[Mr Walker]

16 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

This entire post reeks of privilege. 

lol I am lucky, and in that sense privileged  Never denied this. I was born in the best place and time ever possible in human history up until now  . 

I have spent my life, and a   great deal of our finances, doing my best to balance out my luck and good fortune by helping  homeless young people and others in our community, helping many people overseas stay alive get an education have healthy water and sanitation give women empowerment through economic development  and  to protect  animals being abused and hurt.

As ive said elsewhere, in forty years of marriage my wife and i have given away about a million dollars, or 25-35% of my income over that time,  to help others and animals .  What have you done?

 Dont try getting personal with me, rather than address the issues, mate.  You haven't got a leg to stand on if you start criticising my life,  and i  could rip your  metaphorical legs out from under you,  simply by relating our life story .

But in deference to those who already know it, i will not

 Privilege comes with responsibility and, the greater the privilege, the greater the responsibility to act, from the position of power and wealth which privilege confers. .I can help a starving person somewhere and so i must.  They can do nothing for me and so are under  no obligation to do anything.   

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

34 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Got it ... 4 paragraphs (approx. 5 seconds of spoken conversation) is too much for you to comprehend. Here's a tip: you don't need to respond to my posts if they are beyond the limits of what you can intellectually process. 

Ah, yes, your intellect is far above mine.

[Frank Merton]

Let me tell you one more thing, mr. superior intelligence, I live in rurual Cambodia and I know poverty first hand and am trying to actually do something rather than sit back and weave complicated intellectual balderdash.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

This entire post reeks of privilege. 

The post was actually information designed to refute your global conspiracy theory that govts and the rich elite ( the church apparently now temporarily put to  one side)  make wage slaves of us all and cause   materialism, over use of resources and rape of the planet  etc  In australia (and i suspect in most of the world) this is not the case and it is no where as simple as that  

But explain how my life reeks of privilege i do live in the lucky country  Compared wit a child from  somalia i grew up incredibly rich and  prosperous.

Mind you we never had new shoes or clothing; we never had fast food or takeaways.  We never traveled by air  We ate home grown food  including bread and dripping, sheep's brains  in bread crumbs, tiny fish soused in vnegar,and lamb's tails pies and we provided a lot of our food from  our own garden and fruit trees and via hunting rabbits, pigeons, and a lot of fishing and shell fish gathered from diving   the local sea.

 Library books were available for a small subscription and, in teaching me to read, my mother gave me an initial head start which later enabled me to get exam based scholarships to complete school ( pay for fees books etc) and uni ( paid for fees and accommodation a t a boarding house in the city.) I had worked every holiday since i was 13 as a cleaner and groundsman at my school to earn enough to help me live and study at uni. and put al the money earned into a bank account for that purpose. 

 My parents certainly could not afford this on my father's wage, with three younger siblings to educate and raise.  We were never hungry, but were never allowed to waste a single piece of food, and everything had to last, so things were repaired;  by my father if mechanical, and my mother if clothing etc.  

We had one hot bath a week (on friday night)  with water from a chip fired water heater,  and all four of the children took turns in using the same water    and yet, you are right. i was privileged, and my parents reminded me of this every day.  if i didn't like a food like tripe or kidneys  i was told that many children were starving and would give anything to have that  food. So I ate anything and everything put in front of me, and most of it was delicious. .  if i thought hand me downs and second hand shoes were beneath my dignity, i was told how my father and his brother shared a pair of shoes in the depression, so both could go to school, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, as you could not attend school bare foot, and the y only had the one pair of shoes.  Or i was told a story of an african girl who walked to school barefoot 20 miles to get an education

 I was brought up not just recognising my privileged position in our world, but with a  humanist obligation to do something with myself  (and the advantages my privilege conferred on me)   to help those less fortunate,, both close by and far away. 

i have dedicated my whole life (with a great deal of help from my wife)  to do this both professionally and in our private lives. And enjoyed every minute of it.    

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[back to earth]

16 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

That is kinda how I would define propaganda.  That there are starving children we know; it is not for the reasons you say (at least that is only a part of the story) but what you did was just cheap propaganda.  Kinda like showing pictures of aborted babies.

Whoa !   That 'kinds like'  is more like a quantum jump  .      Ya just about  ' cheap propagandared'  me there 

[back to earth]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

..

  I live in a country designated by the UN as the 3rd  best in the world on indicators of human well being,

Load of crap !

here is what the UN thinks about Australia and 'human well being ' 

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/australia-again-denounced-for-treatment-of-aborigines-as-un-investigates/article17551568.ece

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

and i can basically do anything i want  without fear of retribution as long as it is legal.

Yep ... just like in Sharia law you would be free to do what they want as long as its legal .      

 

 

[back to earth]

13 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

This entire post reeks of privilege. 

Not only that .... a lot of it is BS and twisted ... Walker thinks he can get away with it as most people dont now how Australia works. Thing is I am from Australia  and I can see his BS .

One example is he goes 'here in Australia ........ blah blah blah  .... then starts going on about things that are NOT happening in Australia but might be regional (like the container / bottle refund and the plastic bag issue ) .

And the BS coverup about us getting in trouble with the UN regarding our indigenous  and the unfair advantage we have over them and how we live in wealth created from environmental destruction here and around the world . UN not happy about that either !

He goes on about how great and free life is here ... but we have probably the highest rate , per person, of polluting energy sustaining us in the world . Look what happened at carbon talks !  Austral wants all these other countries to cut back but us ?  Oh no , we cant do that , our way of life is dependant on it !     As if others way of life doesnt !     Typical ! 

He would probably laugh to see any connection  made with that and the global  environment problem .

[Dhurfjooydig]

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

But explain how my life reeks of privilege

It isn't your life that reeks of privilege so much as your attitude of privilege, which is implicitly (and frequently explicitly) expressed in your views. Paraphrasing:

"It isn't the neoliberal transnational capitalist class that is responsible for 150k species going extinct annually and accelerating [ which is a moral issue, above all ] ... it's those darned [ amoral ] ordinary  people who force the ruling class to destroy the ecosystem."  

Wow. A sense of privilege is required to assume the right to define / blame ordinary people for what they have been forced to participate in ("ordinary people" implicitly states that you're speaking from a place of 'non-ordinary'). 

"If you believe that the neoliberal transnational capitalist class is manufacturing poverty, micromanaging the dominant media, buying science, aligned with religion to further its agenda of profit, and is responsible for the destruction of the ecosystem, then you're just a conspiracy theorist".  

This kind of knee jerk dismissiveness is evidence of a sense of privilege that allows you not to have to seriously considered it. 

"If ordinary people would just have faith in "god" and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, then they could be privileged like I am".  

Assumes they have access to the privilege you enjoy which would make it easy for them to pull themselves up.

"I don't see a ruling class"

Ta da! The ultimate privilege is to not have to acknowledge the existence of a ruling class.

"I'm a Christian. My life is privileged. Therefore Christianity is good."

The faulty logic of the privileged. 

"Primitive people were basically mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots. Christianity did them a favor by destroying their cultural views".  

You feel unquestionably certain in your dismissive evaluation of the quality of their cognitive skills and in your ability to define their perceptual relationship with existence ... by virtue of your alignment with [now archaic) dominant academic views and with a [now archaic though still] dominant 'religion'.  This is conceptual colonialism ... the domain of those who assume privilege without questioning it. 

"It is almost impossible, in the west, for an educated person to be marginalised  or disadvantaged, because knowledge and education are the prime tools of empowerment in a knowledge based society."  

This is actually evidence of a naïveté, but it's a naïveté that only a privileged person would blithely be unaware of. It also assumes, by omission, that the West is all that's necessary to take into account ... Western privilege not feeling the need to acknowledge the rest of the world (while claiming the right to define the rest of the world).

Edited May 21, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[back to earth]

I also note he has run off from my challenge on the original question.

he has also managed to divert the conversation away from that into this .

 

So I am supposing  he COULD NOT  manup and answer clearly, but had to resort to old tactics of a smoke screen  / diversion /  ...

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by back to earth