The Origins of Religion

[Frank Merton]

1 hour ago, back to earth said:

Whoa !   That 'kinds like'  is more like a quantum jump  .      Ya just about  ' cheap propagandared'  me there 

I know the standards of civilized debate aren't much followed on these boards, but you don't have to follow the crowd -- let alone lead them.

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

It isn't your life that reeks of privilege so much as your attitude of privilege, which is implicitly (and frequently explicitly) expressed in your views. Paraphrasing:

"It isn't the neoliberal transnational capitalist class that is responsible for 150k species going extinct annually and accelerating [ which is a moral issue, above all ] ... it's those darned [ amoral ] ordinary  people who force the ruling class to destroy the ecosystem."  

Wow. A sense of privilege is required to assume the right to define / blame ordinary people for what they have been forced to participate in ("ordinary people" implicitly states that you're speaking from a place of 'non-ordinary'). 

"If you believe that the neoliberal transnational capitalist class is manufacturing poverty, micromanaging the dominant media, buying science, aligned with religion to further its agenda of profit, and is responsible for the destruction of the ecosystem, then you're just a conspiracy theorist".  

This kind of knee jerk dismissiveness is evidence of a sense of privilege that allows you not to have to seriously considered it. 

"If ordinary people would just have faith in "god" and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, then they could be privileged like I am".  

Assumes they have access to the privilege you enjoy which would make it easy for them to pull themselves up.

"I don't see a ruling class"

Ta da! The ultimate privilege is to not have to acknowledge the existence of a ruling class.

"I'm a Christian. My life is privileged. Therefore Christianity is good."

The faulty logic of the privileged. 

"Primitive people were basically mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots. Christianity did them a favor by destroying their cultural views".  

You feel unquestionably certain in your dismissive evaluation of the quality of their cognitive skills and in your ability to define their perceptual relationship with existence ... by virtue of your alignment with [now archaic) dominant academic views and with a [now archaic though still] dominant 'religion'.  This is conceptual colonialism ... the domain of those who assume privilege without questioning it. 

"It is almost impossible, in the west, for an educated person to be marginalised  or disadvantaged, because knowledge and education are the prime tools of empowerment in a knowledge based society."  

This is actually evidence of a naïveté, but it's a naïveté that only a privileged person would blithely be unaware of. It also assumes, by omission, that the West is all that's necessary to take into account ... Western privilege not feeling the need to acknowledge the rest of the world (while claiming the right to define the rest of the world).

Ah so it is not that i am privileged, but that you attribute privilege to me, due to my tone and style  Thank you for the compliment As a working class lad it is an accolade.

No it is not the trans whatever which causes ecological disaster. It is basic human greed and selfishness (or if you like, the evolved human psychological need to consume in good times in order to survive the lean times) No one has to buy a new phone every year, eat out every day, or go on a world trip every year. Those are individual choices for which individual people are responsible, and trying to blame others is a personal abrogation of responsibility. it is like a man saying,  "Oh, she made me hit her."

if you believe the transitional whatever is deliberately manufacturing poverty you are an idiot. Logically they would make more money if there was no poverty. Poverty today is a result of an inequality in the distribution of wealth and resources not a lack of resources   Capitalism and enterprise has built great wealth in some parts of the world (and ordinary westerners are a large part of that wealth)  However until humans see that selfishness is both unfair/unjust and bad for all, there will be no change. ie the rich will not transfer any part of their wealth to the poor

  If capital was invested in developing counties under democratic sound governance then the peole in those countries would also grow wealthier.  BUT there is not enough water soil or living material on earth to sustain  all humans at a western standard, SO either westerners reduce their living standards OR we significantly reduce population levels (luckily this is beginning to happen in developed countries) 

The sort of word order you  talk of does not exist outside of dan brown novels, although the examples of extreme wealth invested in a handful of humans does.

Ps this is not a knee jerk reaction, it is a consequence of over 60 years of following politics, history geography human psychology  sociology etc.   This includes five years of university study in those subjects and the ongoing study and research needed to teach them to students preparing to enter university  Ive attended numerous conferences addressing many of the issues you raise.  

Who mentioned god ?

People need self esteem and an opportunity for education.  If the y can gain access to even a little capital that is even better but it  is education which liberates and empowers.  But everyone of us has a potential which only we can realise via hard work discipline and time. That s a humanist value not a christian one. 

I do not see a ruling class in my life or in australia because none exists. it is an outmoded concept superseded by modern realities  Reading and study shows no such "class" actually exists anywhere except perhaps in china and russia, where an historical subservience of the population has allowed a modern political (not religious)  oligarchy to dominate

Again where did christianity enter the picture I was raised secular humanist. Many of the world's wealthiest men are jews and muslims others are russian and chinese atheists. Christianity is a religion of  the poor, the powerless, and the underprivileged.It liberates and empowers people, freeing them from materialist expectations, fears and desires; and thus  from control by wealth or power, which attempts to use those things to control them. .  (of course this is the opinion of someone who is opposed to much catholic doctrine and whose forebears were scottish presbyterians and calvinists)  

No you are imputing other concepts onto mine 

primitive peole dont have the advantages of modern science technology and medicine.  they dont have knowledge and thus they don't have power This is not a religious issue but a socio econmoc one

Study population transition theory for a full understanding of how technology changes both ideas and physical conditions in the world  Primitive peoples adapted well to local environments but thus were always a the mercy and control of environmental factors, Science and technology puts humans in control and gives us choice and empowerment. But with great power comes great responsibility and the need for great wisdom.

We now have the power to destroy our planet or to make it into a paradise,  .  Conceptual colonialism?  No, in that colonialism in liberal academic circles is a dirty word   I will not argue with a person who believes tha t european western science ad technology has not improved the lot of all those colonised the noble savage is a romantic illusion  And would never survive contact with advanced technology science etc. Modern indigenous people struggle to retain historical identities, yet can only do so  within a context of a modern civilization surrounding them. Few, if any, forgo modern medicine for example few can survive, living the lives of their ancestors. . 

Well, which is it ? naivete or privilege ?  i was pointing out that given education  any human can gain the same relative advantages a s i can  although how non relative that advantage will be depends on the socio economic context surrounding that person Hence by giving a woman  in some parts of the world  a few hundred dollars i can give her a lifetime huge advantage in not just economic terms but self esteem and also power within  her family and society. .  I cant make her rich by western standards but i can make her rich by her standards and confer freedom and empowerment on her in doing so.  Ps we ordinary peole are the NON  neoliberal transnational capitalist class It is you who is making assumptions about my use of terms 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Mr Walker

[XenoFish]

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Ah but i am an insensitive cuss   I don't posses a sense of entitlement in the sense you mean here.  I feel strongly the opposite . 

As described, i am well aware.  of my good fortune and the reasons for it  (Luck  good parenting and good genes)

Rather than, however, feel entitled in the negative way the word is often used, I was taught that good fortune must be shared, that our lives are not for us alone,  but for others; and that  the more power and privilege a person has, the more responsibility and duty they also have to others.

 My personal understanding of reality is based on a long and strong education including politics, history, (including revolutionary theory colonialism etc)  sociology and human  geography, such as demographics and sustainable economics , and a personal interest in faith  and belief as structures of human cognition and psychology which evolved to benefit and help humans survive. 

[Mr Walker]

16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

What a mighty fine case of narcissism we have here folks. The ultimate altruist. 

Therein lies a logical fallacy  A narcissist has no interest in altruism

 Take it or leave it.

i was raised  on the opposite concept to  entitlement ie that NO ONE is entitled to anything. Not even life.

Everything we have is, first, a gift from the gods or, if you are an atheist, a gift from nature and chaotic chance.

 We have no entitlement to anything, and really only develop the rights to things, by hard work and discipline.

 However if we get lucky, and /or through hard work, get rich, or become powerful,  then we owe a duty and responsibility to those who did not have our luck and good fortune  (a bit less duty and responsibility  to those who  also had it but chose not to use it) 

[Frank Merton]

The subject of narcissism interests me, and I've recently expanded by English vocabulary with this word. Well, not quite -- I had known the word all along as the name of the guy in Greek myth who fell in love with his reflection -- so I had always taken it as the name of a sexual deviation where people look for others with appearance like theirs (the joke is the guy kissing himself in the mirror).

I now understand that the word refers to something much more sinister -- someone who just automatically assumes they are right and anything bad about them is a lie.  (Anyone in particular come to mind?)

That such people are dangerous when in power is obvious.  They don't exactly lack a conscience, but something worse -- they assume, no matter what evil they commit, that it was the right thing to do.  Hypocrisy just comes naturally to them -- it's a lie that I criticized Obama for bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia -- or maybe the reports that I did so are a lie.  Whatever, the narcissist can do nothing wrong nor ever make a mistake -- such a possibility doesn't even enter his head.

 

 

[back to earth]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

 

T shirt material that one !    

Peeps want the privileged life they believe they are entitled to    ...... must be all them princess stories they read them in the kiddy books  ? 

Edited May 22, 2017 by back to earth

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

The subject of narcissism interests me, and I've recently expanded by English vocabulary with this word. Well, not quite -- I had known the word all along as the name of the guy in Greek myth who fell in love with his reflection -- so I had always taken it as the name of a sexual deviation where people look for others with appearance like theirs (the joke is the guy kissing himself in the mirror).

I now understand that the word refers to something much more sinister -- someone who just automatically assumes they are right and anything bad about them is a lie.  (Anyone in particular come to mind?)

That such people are dangerous when in power is obvious.  They don't exactly lack a conscience, but something worse -- they assume, no matter what evil they commit, that it was the right thing to do.  Hypocrisy just comes naturally to them -- it's a lie that I criticized Obama for bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia -- or maybe the reports that I did so are a lie.  Whatever, the narcissist can do nothing wrong nor ever make a mistake -- such a possibility doesn't even enter his head.

 

 

Evil is a measurable outcome My ethics and moralities are based on  attaining measurably productive outcomes for myself and others and the environment

Ive been accused of narcissism many times, sometimes by trolls but generally by those who totally misunderstand the actual nature of narcissism and its psychological causation.

 I am not in fact narcissistic  i am the opposite  i care deeply and strongly about others and have spent most of my life helping them.   A strong sense of self esteem is not narcissistic but healthy, an honest pride in hard won accomplishments is not narcissistic either. Of the 9 to 12 clinical indicators of narcism i don't actually have any although some of my behaviours for other reasons do appear similar to a narcissists. Eg i will not accept personal attacks about me or the person i am   No one has to accept tha t.  However i do accept criticism of my ideas opinions or beliefs ( a narcissist would not be ale to do this)  Then i go out and argue about WHY my own beliefs opinions values and behaviours  etc are better than others, based on criteria referenced assessment of outcomes  

 I  care and act because  this is part of the code i was brought up on, about honour and duty, compassion and care     When you care about another you do your best to protect the from harm even self harm.    Your beliefs values ethics and moralities run deep and are uncompromising  although the y may be nuanced  people must be allowed to take measured risks in order to learn grow and develop ., so the important is to keep them informed and teach tem how to make the necessary logical assessment of risk  Every adult has this duty not only to children but also to others the y care about. IF oyu care about everyone then you do what oyu can to educate a s many peole as possible. and to structure society to achieve a balance of risk and safety 

Any intelligent person should  be making less mistakes as they get older because every experience and also wisdom learned from every experience, teaches us how to avoid mistakes  Mistakes in the young are a sign of their learning; In adult a sign of carelessness and in the old a sign of desperation  

Edited May 22, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

41 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

But a narcissist will try to pass themselves off as an altruist if they think it will improve their image (by masking their self obsession).

But an accurate judgement of character can be measured using criteria referenced assessment   My behaviors do not match those of a narcissist Neither do my motivations or values/beliefs Thus it is clear that it is the minds of others passing a judgement based on their subjective opinions  rather than objective criteria. I sometimes suspect that many posters here lack self belief and self esteem and this is characterised by envy of others and a desire to bring them down in any way the y can .  But then how could i know tha t any better than someone could know if i was a narcissist.  

[XenoFish]

Should we go down the list? I think we should. Let's see 2, 5, 6, 8, 13, and 14. I'm not say, but I'm saying. 

[Dhurfjooydig]

DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:

• Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
• Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
• Exaggerating your achievements and talents
• Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
• Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
• Requiring constant admiration
• Having a sense of entitlement
• Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
• Taking advantage of others to get what you want
• Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Being envious of others and believing others envy you
• Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner

[Frank Merton]

1 hour ago, back to earth said:

I dont know how Frank got in there , nor can I get rid of him .... oh well   

Couldn't you have said something like "delete" or "remove" rather than "get rid?"  On second thought, I don't like the idea behind the words delete and remove either.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Should we go down the list? I think we should. Let's see 2, 5, 6, 8, 13, and 14. I'm not say, but I'm saying. 

 You PERCEIVE those characteristics via a subjective world view.  Let us check them off.

2 I dont fail so i dont ever need to blame others  

5 I am not arrogant A strong self belief and confidence is not arrogance especially when it is justiied (remember i am never wrong  

Often low self esteem and confidence in others causes them to see confident people as a threat or something to envy.  Assertiveness confidence and  certainty especially in debate is not arrogance

6 I live in a very real and physical world.  Ive been highly successful and functional within it, on any form of assessment you want to  use  I also construct ( for entertainment ) fantasies  (including whole worlds) for  myself and others But as professional assessments (and the outcomes of my life) have shown i am highly competent in my abilty to perceive reality and non reality.   The problem occurs where others insist only their limited experience with the real world is true and because  (for example) they have never encountered a real ghost, then real ghosts can not possibly exist. . I don't watch porn, have never flirted ( i love my wife and honour our marriage vows too much  for this),  and actually fear too much  success and fame. It is who we are, and how we behave, which defines us, not  how others perceive us. 

8 I've never lied on UM (except as humour) and, if you can show, or prove, otherwise, I  challenge you to do so . 

I accept that facts can be used in different ways. I use logic and context and evidences when i interpret facts , Another's disagreement does not make my assessment invalid. 

9 lol. I am scottish by descent. I am incredibly canny with money and  we live on/ around. the age pension mark. very comfortably ( about 36000 dollars a year.)   Of course if you consider giving money away to those who are dying of starvation or disease to be irresponsible, or buying only things we need, to be  irresponsible, then this illustrates your problem, not mine.  Money is a means of gaining things/ a medium of exchange   i have all I need and so use it for others. I use it to make the world a little better and safer. if i run out temporarily because i have given a bit too much away.then the world (or god)   gives it back to me   (this only occurred when we were living on my salary Now that i have a substantial reserve it doesnt happen)  I owe nothing to anyone except a small mortgage on my home, which is more than covered by superannuation assets. I have no credit card or shop debts (and don't own a credit card or run shop accounts)  despite giving away a large part of our income over our married life

  

I have overall assets of about half a million dollars, including a home worth $250000, and almost $200000 in superannuation.  My car is 3 years old and paid for. I owe $60000  on our house and pay $1000 a month on the loan which has 6 more years to run   I could pay it off, but i earn nearly 3 times the interest on my super investment, what  my mortgage interest rate is 

Woops this one you did NOT accuse me of Still my explanation shows i am the opposite to a narcissist when it comes to money. I don't spend anything much on my appearance  or pleasure, for example.  

13 I can understand this pov but i look at it another way.

 i correct errors of fact and try to help people see things in more constructive, less dangerous, ways This does mean confronting people who behave in ways that can harm self or others. I value social order and safety for the most vulnerable ABOVE my individual rights and freedoms because without a strong stable society I will HAVE no rights and freedoms.  This is the opposite reason for why a narcissist tends to provoke and blame others.  

14. Show me a  factual mistake and i will admit to it. I've made about 2 factual errors on UM in a decade or more, and have shifted my opinion on a couple of more things, when presented with good arguments.  Again there are many pov on some subjects.

i can defend mine with facts and logic whereas many resort to attacks on my intelligence character or honesty.   Others can and should disagree with many of my views and opinions because the y are not me and have a different life experience    but this does not make my opinions or views wrong or mistaken.

Thank you for not accusing me of the missing characteristics. i am sure there are some posters who would also perceive and impute those characteristics in me as well.

If i am honest i know very well that i am one of the luckiest men on earth, in every facet of my life.

However, my joy, happiness, lack of fear depression anxiety or worry, is also due to years of hard work and disciplined effort , characteristics instilled in me by my parents.

i sincerely want ALL humans to be a s happy and as productive and successful in everything as i have been albeit with emphasis on their OWN needs and talents   i want them to be able to like and love the person they are to e confident enough to know the y can do anything the y realy put their mind to and to know that they are valued and worthy That the y are the equal to(  no better, but no less,)  than ANY other human on earth.  I am no better as a human being  than a beggar on the streets of mumbai, but i am no less than the crown prince of saudi arabia   I am defined by how i behave. not by birth, skills, talents, wealth or power. 

I dont believe in  heaven or hell but i KNOW we each have the abilty, first to make our own lives either heaven or hell and also to contribute a little to either making earth into a paradise or a hell   and because we CAN ,then we must. We have a social, humanist, ethical duty, to act to make earth more like "heaven"  and less like "hell." 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 You PERCEIVE those characteristics via a subjective world view.  Let us check them off.

2 I dont fail so i dont ever need to blame others  

5 I am not arrogant A strong self belief and confidence is not arrogance especially when it is justiied (remember i am never wrong  

Often low self esteem and confidence in others causes them to see confident people as a threat or something to envy.  Assertiveness confidence and  certainty especially in debate is not arrogance

6 I live in a very real and physical world.  Ive been highly successful and functional within it, on any form of assessment you want to  use  I also construct ( for entertainment ) fantasies  (including whole worlds) for  myself and others But as professional assessments (and the outcomes of my life) have shown i am highly competent in my abilty to perceive reality and non reality.   The problem occurs where others insist only their limited experience with the real world is true and because  (for example) they have never encountered a real ghost, then real ghosts can not possibly exist. . I don't watch porn, have never flirted ( i love my wife and honour our marriage vows too much  for this),  and actually fear too much  success and fame. It is who we are, and how we behave, which defines us, not  how others perceive us. 

8 I've never lied on UM (except as humour) and, if you can show, or prove, otherwise, I  challenge you to do so . 

I accept that facts can be used in different ways. I use logic and context and evidences when i interpret facts , Another's disagreement does not make my assessment invalid. 

9 lol. I am scottish by descent. I am incredibly canny with money and  we live on/ around. the age pension mark. very comfortably ( about 36000 dollars a year.)   Of course if you consider giving money away to those who are dying of starvation or disease to be irresponsible, or buying only things we need, to be  irresponsible, then this illustrates your problem, not mine.  Money is a means of gaining things/ a medium of exchange   i have all I need and so use it for others. I use it to make the world a little better and safer. if i run out temporarily because i have given a bit too much away.then the world (or god)   gives it back to me   (this only occurred when we were living on my salary Now that i have a substantial reserve it doesnt happen)  I owe nothing to anyone except a small mortgage on my home, which is more than covered by superannuation assets. I have no credit card or shop debts (and don't own a credit card or run shop accounts)  despite giving away a large part of our income over our married life

  

I have overall assets of about half a million dollars, including a home worth $250000, and almost $200000 in superannuation.  My car is 3 years old and paid for. I owe $60000  on our house and pay $1000 a month on the loan which has 6 more years to run   I could pay it off, but i earn nearly 3 times the interest on my super investment, what  my mortgage interest rate is 

Woops this one you did NOT accuse me of Still my explanation shows i am the opposite to a narcissist when it comes to money. I don't spend anything much on my appearance  or pleasure, for example.  

13 I can understand this pov but i look at it another way.

 i correct errors of fact and try to help people see things in more constructive, less dangerous, ways This does mean confronting people who behave in ways that can harm self or others. I value social order and safety for the most vulnerable ABOVE my individual rights and freedoms because without a strong stable society I will HAVE no rights and freedoms.  This is the opposite reason for why a narcissist tends to provoke and blame others.  

14. Show me a  factual mistake and i will admit to it. I've made about 2 factual errors on UM in a decade or more, and have shifted my opinion on a couple of more things, when presented with good arguments.  Again there are many pov on some subjects.

i can defend mine with facts and logic whereas many resort to attacks on my intelligence character or honesty.   Others can and should disagree with many of my views and opinions because the y are not me and have a different life experience    but this does not make my opinions or views wrong or mistaken.

Thank you for not accusing me of the missing characteristics. i am sure there are some posters who would also perceive and impute those characteristics in me as well.

If i am honest i know very well that i am one of the luckiest men on earth, in every facet of my life.

However, my joy, happiness, lack of fear depression anxiety or worry, is also due to years of hard work and disciplined effort , characteristics instilled in me by my parents.

i sincerely want ALL humans to be a s happy and as productive and successful in everything as i have been albeit with emphasis on their OWN needs and talents   i want them to be able to like and love the person they are to e confident enough to know the y can do anything the y realy put their mind to and to know that they are valued and worthy That the y are the equal to(  no better, but no less,)  than ANY other human on earth.  I am no better as a human being  than a beggar on the streets of mumbai, but i am no less than the crown prince of saudi arabia   I am defined by how i behave. not by birth, skills, talents, wealth or power. 

I dont believe in  heaven or hell but i KNOW we each have the abilty, first to make our own lives either heaven or hell and also to contribute a little to either making earth into a paradise or a hell   and because we CAN ,then we must. We have a social, humanist, ethical duty, to act to make earth more like "heaven"  and less like "hell." 

If your self esteem is so solid, and your confidence so unshakeable why are you defending yourself.. Psych 101 immaturity defends, justifys, and explains. Maturity takes what  is of value in others opinions and leaves the rest. 

You literally take point by point, who does this, not someone who is happy, content, and has a solid sense of self. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Sherapy

[back to earth]

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Couldn't you have said something like "delete" or "remove" rather than "get rid?"  On second thought, I don't like the idea behind the words delete and remove either.

 

Sorry  .....   ummmmmm   .....   < thinks of appropriate word  >   .....

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

If your self esteem is so solid, and your confidence so unshakeable why are you defending yourself.. Psych 101 immaturity defends, justifys, and explains. Maturity takes what  is of value in others opinions and leaves the rest. 

You literally take point by point, who does this, not someone who is happy, content, and has a solid sense of self. 

 

 

 

 

That is not a very intelligent question.

Truth is important and should always be defended. 

 If i never responded, then only one point of view (a false and malicious one)  would be recorded. 

Ask yourself rather,,  why am i questioned in ways which require a defence?  This forum should be about the exchange and debate of ideas, NOT  personal commentaries.   However , when people strongly disagree with beliefs, ideas or experiences, and can't argue against them successfully, using facts, logic and argument, they seek to undermine the strength of the opposition by personal attacks on the opponent  

It is very simple, Sherapy.  Think of it this way. If others were making personal attacks, including lies,  misrepresentations ridicule, sarcasm and name calling (like this silly example  of narcissism) etc about you and your life, what would you do?

  It has nothing to do with ego, but is about character and integrity. I will always defend attacks on my honesty, character, honour or integrity, or other characteristics,  because to me these are the things which make a man, and the only true wealth a human being possesses  

I dont need your psych 101. I've completed 4 years of university psychology and done 20 years as a trained counsellor in health and sexual development among adolescents 

Truth not immaturity requires defence.  The immaturity in debate lies with those who seek to "win" an argument by attacking and undermining the opponent.  Decades ago ( probably in debating or logic 101) i was taught that, once an opponent begins attacking you, you can know you have won the objective and factual argument.  

A point by point rebuttal has no significance to an emotional state. It is a debating tactic or style, to use order and logic to respond to criticism, point by point, and then to summarise (again debating 101) 

You see this is what concerns me on this forum. Many peole never had the advantage of the old fashioned classical education that  i had and thus never learned what is a appropriate debating style and what is not, or what is allowable or wise in a public argument and what is not .  This is often what forces them to resort to personal attacks. 

[back to earth]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 You PERCEIVE those characteristics via a subjective world view.  Let us check them off.

2 I dont fail so i dont ever need to blame others  

Except you failed to convince us of all your BS    and we right here watching you   =   fail

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

5 I am not arrogant A strong self belief and confidence is not arrogance especially when it is justiied (remember i am never wrong  

I couldnt have answered that one better than you did .       Writes a for word  self asserting sentence  ... immediately contradicts it in next sentence . 

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Often low self esteem and confidence in others causes them to see confident people as a threat or something to envy.  Assertiveness confidence and  certainty especially in debate is not arrogance

6 I live in a very real and physical world.

With god dog angel orange space men looking after you ... and imaginary trips to Sth America where your body feels warm . 

Rambles on 90%  delusional  etc  etc  .   

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

. 

8 I've never lied on UM (except as humour) and, if you can show, or prove, otherwise, I  challenge you to do so . 

Yet when I challemged you after I clearly busted you lying , and posted the prrof and wanted an explanation ... nothing . 

Three times I posted it and said if you dont explain this we will have to then realise you are lying .  You didnt, you chose to be seen (then) as liar .  You liar ! 

 

You also seem to forget what happens day to day , as if yesterday never happened and is not remembered . Well, it is , by us .

I guess thats why you dont think or believe you lie , just wipe the memory ever night eh ? 

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

14. Show me a  factual mistake and i will admit to it. I've made about 2 factual errors on UM in a decade or more, and have shifted my opinion on a couple of more things, when presented with good arguments.  Again there are many pov on some subjects.

NO you won;t  ... you will lie about it maybe  .... thats all .

 

[back to earth]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

If your self esteem is so solid, and your confidence so unshakeable why are you defending yourself.. Psych 101 immaturity defends, justifys, and explains. Maturity takes what  is of value in others opinions and leaves the rest. 

You literally take point by point, who does this, not someone who is happy, content, and has a solid sense of self. 

 

NO, he not too happy at the moment ... he got censored in the other thread   (   I am glad you didnt see what he did there  .... horrible !   The mods have fixed it now though . 

So expect some more  Walker   thinly veiled    passive agro .   he just gotta find someone else to pick on now    

[back to earth]

12 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

You see this is what concerns me on this forum. Many peole never had the advantage of the old fashioned classical education that  i had and thus never learned what is a appropriate debating style and what is not, or what is allowable or wise in a public argument and what is not .  This is often what forces them to resort to personal attacks. 

If you ever debated reasonable and intelligently without the full set of Walker BS.  tricks ,  double speak goal post moving etc etc etc   that has p***ed off so many people because YOU WON"T DEBATE PROPERLY YOURSELF! 

You would be reciieed entirely differently !   But you just cant see that can you ... as nothing can be your fault, as you never make mistakes (or lie ) 

Serves you right !  

 

What you think everyone just randomly reacted they way to YOU   just out of pure coincidence ... and you have no part in it at all ?

Pffft ! 

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:

• Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
• Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
• Exaggerating your achievements and talents
• Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
• Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
• Requiring constant admiration
• Having a sense of entitlement
• Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
• Taking advantage of others to get what you want
• Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Being envious of others and believing others envy you
• Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner

I think i already covered this  I do not have or posses any of these traits or characteristics although i can understand why others might perceive them  inme  

I have a totally appropriate sense of my own importance  I am the most important man on earth   yet no more nor less important than you  

LOL i dnt even think of myself as superior  so why should any one else think that i think of myself that way.    I have the achievements and if compelled to, could provide eyewitness statements and documented to prove any real world achievement i have claimed on UM. 

 I have Never once exaggerated  or   consciously lied about my achievements or talents on UM What would be the point ?   Disbelief is a problem with acceptance of difference, by others. 

I have plenty of fantasies but unless directly relevant (ike the triple breasted amazon space alien)   i don't discuss them on UM. Fantasy has a legitimate and constructive place in person's life but it must be kept in its place 

Well i dont KNOW why some have trouble with understanding me (wait a minute wasn't it you who accused frank of being to dumb to understand  your writing style?)  (if not i apologize)  Many do seem incapable of reading and sorting out more than a couple of sentences of text  or  understanding  complex compound concepts  

I don't require admiration from others i have enough love  and admiration for myself not to need any more  

Weve covered the entitlement question. I have the opposite concept ie  that I have a duty and responsibility to others, and all that i have is a gift, given to help others,  not an entitlement of birth or place. .

Special favours ? The world gives back to us what we give to us. I dont need favours. But yeah dude I expect you to be totally compliant  with my every expectation  lol

Because  of the gifts of life and god freely bestowed on me,  i dont need to take advantage of others, but it would be against the code of chivalry and honour instilled in me as a child  I am a samurai and a knight of the round table  (just kidding that is fantasy) but i do apply those codes to how I Live my life.

Oh yeah I am so cold man  I guess that is  why i am loved so much by so many  

Well really being perfect, intelligent,  wealthy, and incredibly handsome what on earth could i have to be envious about?  

Guilty   Well it is true that others perceive me like that sometimes This is  because i am just being honest and refuse to be hypocritical, lie or manipulate others with false emotions flattery or  fake friendship.    Sometimes i can appear that way.  Teaching for 40 plus years also grows a sort of demeanour about you as well.  Really i am a warm fuzzy little teddy bear and my year 9 girls told me so.  

Finally, a narcissist would be incapable of responding to you like this, using humour .  

Edited May 23, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

In my discussion of narcissism, Walker was not who I was thinking of and I can't imagine why he would get defensive.  It may be that I put it in a place where Walker was already active, but that is hard to avoid.  I don't generally read what he posts but right now I'm not interested in investigating it.  I would thing it obvious enough I was talking about Trump.

[Mr Walker]

4 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

In my discussion of narcissism, Walker was not who I was thinking of and I can't imagine why he would get defensive.  It may be that I put it in a place where Walker was already active, but that is hard to avoid.  I don't generally read what he posts but right now I'm not interested in investigating it.  I would thing it obvious enough I was talking about Trump.

Yea that is what happened frank It appeared to be referencing me (and i think another poster used it in that way)  and i accept your word that  it was not. But as you can see from the correspondence, it has long been an issue of perception that i must be incredibly narcissistic

. I am not  For example i don't even use a mirror to dress or groom. I don't brush my hair, or clean my shoes, until my wife makes me. I only shave about  once a year  and my clothes are 10 years old, repaired and patched several times   This is because, for me, who we are is about the inside character not the outside appearance . 

[Clarakore]

10 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

 I would thing it obvious enough I was talking about Trump.

It was obvious when you read the next paragraph after that regarding people in power then mention bowing to the Saudi Arabians.

[Frank Merton]

1 hour ago, back to earth said:

 

Sorry  .....   ummmmmm   .....   < thinks of appropriate word  >   .....

 

 

 

That won't quite make it either.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not a very intelligent question.

Truth is important and should always be defended. 

 If i never responded, then only one point of view (a false and malicious one)  would be recorded. 

Ask yourself rather,,  why am i questioned in ways which require a defence?  This forum should be about the exchange and debate of ideas, NOT  personal commentaries.   However , when people strongly disagree with beliefs, ideas or experiences, and can't argue against them successfully, using facts, logic and argument, they seek to undermine the strength of the opposition by personal attacks on the opponent  

It is very simple, Sherapy.  Think of it this way. If others were making personal attacks, including lies,  misrepresentations ridicule, sarcasm and name calling (like this silly example  of narcissism) etc about you and your life, what would you do?

  It has nothing to do with ego, but is about character and integrity. I will always defend attacks on my honesty, character, honour or integrity, or other characteristics,  because to me these are the things which make a man, and the only true wealth a human being possesses  

I dont need your psych 101. I've completed 4 years of university psychology and done 20 years as a trained counsellor in health and sexual development among adolescents 

Truth not immaturity requires defence.  The immaturity in debate lies with those who seek to "win" an argument by attacking and undermining the opponent.  Decades ago ( probably in debating or logic 101) i was taught that, once an opponent begins attacking you, you can know you have won the objective and factual argument.  

A point by point rebuttal has no significance to an emotional state. It is a debating tactic or style, to use order and logic to respond to criticism, point by point, and then to summarise (again debating 101) 

You see this is what concerns me on this forum. Many peole never had the advantage of the old fashioned classical education that  i had and thus never learned what is a appropriate debating style and what is not, or what is allowable or wise in a public argument and what is not .  This is often what forces them to resort to personal attacks. 

 

You are the only poster who debates using himself as the evidence, this is not debate. Come on, you know this. 

For example, you claim an education you do not demonstrate in your arguments, this is not to suggest you didn't get an education, it is just saying it isn't obvious in your posts, simply because you focus on things that do not matter, not because you don't have potential.

People are going to give an opinion when you post silly, outrageous things insisting they must believe you on your word,, try to stop doing that, let people have their of point of view, you have an incredible opportunity to let your argument stand for itself and when it doesn't work on bringing more facts and stick to the topic. 

I have been a poster who was disliked about as much as you, and I didn't engage in others assessments of me, why would I it wasn't about me, there was no reason to defend myself. This is what a self confident, mature adult does.  And the times (and there were a few of those) I reported the posts that would bring the kind of drama you instigate all the time. Part of integrity is to be mindful of your part in the problem. And, you are a big part of the issues you have, Use your "classic education"and change things and you might  find that your time on here is a lot more productive, and perhaps even rewarding. 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Sherapy