The Origins of Religion

[back to earth]

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Well, I don't know that he actually said as much.  One thing I would like to say -- archeology does not tell us what people were thinking or why they left this or that artifact behind, either at a tomb or somewhere else.  We often infer things that may not be the case -- take the cave paintings -- the presumption is they were some sort of ritual asking forgiveness for killing these beasts, but it could easily be must a spooky place with paintings intended as part of a coming-of-age ritual intended to scare the teenagers.  We can't know and I think it inappropriate to call something "religion" when we really can't know.

(Continued ) 

1.  re 'scaring the teenagers' .  There does seem some dynamic like that , but also as an initiation  or test , in prep for manhood ( and what it might mean for a hunter or gatherer or many  other aspects of life  back then,  ) - more to the point ; how he will react and respond even though he is ;scared to death' . 

2.  " We can't know and I think it inappropriate to call something "religion" when we really can't know. "   Some call some initiation rites religion and some do not.   Sometimes the rites seem like civil celebrations ,,, except back then there was no 'civil' either.  Think of civil, religious, secular , in some cases ; political or military   as having no difference .  It's the way their societies seem structured. 

The issue is  we now make a distinction between things religious and secular or scientific.  No distinction back then. 

Its not that they didnt do things that we do now that we call religion , its more that there was no distinction between  those things and the 'real'  or physical 'physical'    or no distinction between the 'real and the ideal ' .

Its hard to explain,  Butterworth does a much better job than I could, which is why I cite him , and the  scholars on it, much better too.

But as I said this is all rehash, its all been put up before  (under protest of you-know-who of course  ) 

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Another example: artifacts ("grave goods") found in tombs -- presumed left there for use by the dead in an afterlife.  Well, maybe -- that seems the most reasonable way to interpret it, and if that interpretation is right then there was belief in an afterlife -- but afterlife, as Buddhism shows, does not imply any sort of worship.  As Gershwin said, "It ain't necessarily so."  The grave goods could be only tokens of respect and honor, or something like that -- after all, grave robbery was common and the robbers clearly could see that the goods were still there with the decomposed body.  We really should not try to read the minds of these people from artifacts.

Yes, this is the 'evidence based' approach .   But it fun to extrapolate from the evidence.  Then , if we go to a source of living tradition, it is even more interesting !  regarding the 'cave paintings'  * here they may be in caves , overhangs, 'rock shelter'  outcrops or any unusual geological formation .... 

" We  paint the paintings ??   No ....   we touch them up, look after , fix them up.  They always been there ,  from Dreamtime . "

The idea here was that the paintings of each thing and form are the original form of that thing laid down in creation and the  plants animals and people are generated by the paintings .             I would never have  supposed that one by myself ! 

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I earlier had reason to indicate that I thought it likely religion originated in what we now call animism but what the people of the time may have thought being nothing more than being polite to the beings of nature.

Indeed !   But some people even today would call 'being polite to the beings of nature' a type of religion .  The crux is , being polite to the beings of nature would be an equally sensible part of life as not stepping on a crocodile to cross the river , or to eat dinner so you didnt get hungry.  Equal par .  Actually , I know some Aboriginals that would rather deal with a stepped on crocodile than be rude to the 'beings of nature' ! 

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

 

 Whether we call attributing intelligence to a mountain or a tree or something "religion" or not is debatable -- I would just call it being mistaken about the real nature of these things.

Or not seeing a separation or difference  in the  'being ' of the tree and the man .... in some cases .... that even applies to me supposedly ; they tell me I am a man AND a tree  !   Specifically, the Illawarra Flame Tree .  ( The person that told me that is man , but also a ring-tailed posssom  

Sound nuts ?     You should try some modern anthropology. down here , they speak in terms of 'the real' , ' the really real '  and the 'really really real ' .

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

So often things are interpreted not only in religious terms, but in terms of Western religion, especially Christianity.

Yes, that is what happened.  take that idea and transpose it to 'our idea of what religion is and should be ' . 

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

 

 These people were not Christians, folks.  They no doubt experienced awe and so on at the universe, as do we, but that and religion and ideals like idolatry are going to far.

Idolatrous pagans , no doubt .         -    did you know that an early definition of a pagan was - country dweller?  Latter, in dictionaries it was shown as any non Christian person ( so a Muslim would have been a pagan ) .  Nowadays its probably an accepted religion . 

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

Oh   Denisovans  now had religion !      Hiow did you come to that conclusion  from a few teeth       

The subject of that sentence was Neandertals. ie" Neandertals ......... at some point  also developed spiritual thinking............"  Stick with your image based communication forms. 

How are you getting round my ignore?   Both some of your posts, and some of sherapy's, appear on a page first up when i go to it,   although they later are hidden.   It seems almost as if,  if i have responded to one post of yours, then  the next one you write comes up as visible.  

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

The leaving of grave goods was a symbolic (non-religious, non-mystical) nod to and reminder of the physical reality understood as the Eternal Return. 

No that simply untrue and there is absolutely NO evidence for such a theory.  

We know from modern primitive behaviours and historical records that grave goods (and also how humans treat their dead for burial)  reflect a self aware consciousness of the nature of life and death,  and are an attempt by the living to reconcile life and death There is enough written by ancient egyptians on their own beliefs, customs, and ceremonies, alone, for us to be certain of this.

 ANY ritualised spiritual behaviour is religious behaviour  Something you either refuse to get or simply ignore  

There is almost NO behaviour in ealry people which is not spiritual or religious based. its how the y thought about life and nature.  You did not hunt, gather, plant or harvest, without communing with the spirits and gods You did not make anything or do anything without asking the gods for help or permission. In ealry human minds the gods and spirits RULED the ancient worlds not humans. You did not cut timber or even enter a forest without permission   You did not go fishing without praying to the gods of the sea and air.You wore or carried symbolic charms like odins hammer for protection.  Even earlier you used attractive stones from a river or beach,  or crystals, as talismans and charms. You carved objects from animal bone for the same purpose,  

And what on earth  is the Eternal return and how can it be a known physical reality?    Never mind i looked it up . This is a relatively late philosophy eg egyptian  and greek.  Some argue it is not religious but philosophical, yet it appears also as a religious form of belief in many religions like jainism sikhism buddhism and hinduism.  

it is NOT, however, a physical reality but a philosophical point of view about human life. There is no actual evidence that there is a cyclical nature to birth and death, or human existence for example, but rather a linear one.

This  is a religious belief which grew out of the cyclical nature of some things in nature. like seasons  and the regrowing of plants/crops from seed. It is an example of adapting religious belief to observable reality in order to make sense of life.    Humans do NOT recycle like plants or seasons (more is the pity) but its an understandable analogy for non scientific minds to construct.  

Tell me no solid ground; when YOU go to a loved ones grave and leave flowers or a child's toy  etc., what are YOU thinking.

"Oh This is me   constructing a symbolic (but not religious )  and non mystical  nod to  the elemental return?"

Or

 "I do this in remembrance of you and our love?  I do it for myself to maintain a connection in my mind  so that even though our physical connection is lost  you remain a part of me" ?

Ancient  people thought and felt just like you or me.

Religious forms were used to express spiritual feelings  which helped them cope with loss and death (among many other things they had to cope with) We don't have to cope with fears about wild animals and famine etc but we still fear death and separation and so we still use ritualised religious behaviors to cope.  Humans have been putting flowers on graves for around  50000 years and we know this is a deliberate religious ritual from about 15000 years ago.    

Edited May 25, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Stubbly_Dooright]

13 hours ago, back to earth said:

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

OH! So, we did?! ...................................................................  What was it?      

 

Errrm, ...     what was   what ?     I dont get your question in relation to the quote above it ? 

Sorry, I was kind of being snarky. Not snarky at you, being snarky with you.    I think I was channeling my inner Jim Carrey.

Quote

In any case its all explained here     in the brief Ch 1 .     a  source I have but up more than 8 times now .     (Walker refuses to read or acknowledge it  ... claims it is NOT academic at all , but when I challenged him to clearly say that these theories are NOT academic , and if he does, I will put up the scholars who wrote about it  ..... total silence .    Must have me on ignore , eh ?    

 

https://archive.org/details/originsofmoderns007291mbp

Well the link does have the actual book! Which kudos to you! Not the link to advertise it for you to buy it. All of it in it's  ebook form glory! Now, if some on these boards took your lead in providing links, we all would get along. There's a lot there, and I glanced through it a bit. You do realize, I have always respected your posts, and that I believe them. (Though, I am wondering if your link can be downloaded into one of my ereaders. Or atleast, uploaded into one. *shrugs* Sidemoved?

I have felt that the origins have always been in more than one area and time on this world. I wonder, does the basics match each other?  

 

 

13 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Well, I don't know that he actually said as much.  One thing I would like to say -- archeology does not tell us what people were thinking or why they left this or that artifact behind, either at a tomb or somewhere else.  We often infer things that may not be the case -- take the cave paintings -- the presumption is they were some sort of ritual asking forgiveness for killing these beasts, but it could easily be must a spooky place with paintings intended as part of a coming-of-age ritual intended to scare the teenagers.  We can't know and I think it inappropriate to call something "religion" when we really can't know.

Another example: artifacts ("grave goods") found in tombs -- presumed left there for use by the dead in an afterlife.  Well, maybe -- that seems the most reasonable way to interpret it, and if that interpretation is right then there was belief in an afterlife -- but afterlife, as Buddhism shows, does not imply any sort of worship.  As Gershwin said, "It ain't necessarily so."  The grave goods could be only tokens of respect and honor, or something like that -- after all, grave robbery was common and the robbers clearly could see that the goods were still there with the decomposed body.  We really should not try to read the minds of these people from artifacts.

I earlier had reason to indicate that I thought it likely religion originated in what we now call animism but what the people of the time may have thought being nothing more than being polite to the beings of nature.  Whether we call attributing intelligence to a mountain or a tree or something "religion" or not is debatable -- I would just call it being mistaken about the real nature of these things.

So often things are interpreted not only in religious terms, but in terms of Western religion, especially Christianity.  These people were not Christians, folks.  They no doubt experienced awe and so on at the universe, as do we, but that and religion and ideals like idolatry are going to far.

Nice post, I believe Frank.  

This reminds me of reading up on the history of the Native Americans, on how a lot of their gods and spirits tended to be in animal form. ( I wonder how at the 'spirit animal' that I often hear about too. ) I think of other cultures and think of how animals are incorporated into their beliefs. And I wonder, how they come to consider that. 

11 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

13 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Another example: artifacts ("grave goods") found in tombs -- presumed left there for use by the dead in an afterlife.  Well, maybe -- that seems the most reasonable way to interpret it, and if that interpretation is right then there was belief in an afterlife -- but afterlife, as Buddhism shows, does not imply any sort of worship. 

The leaving of grave goods was a symbolic (non-religious, non-mystical) nod to and reminder of the physical reality understood as the Eternal Return. 

Does this have a tie-in to the 'day of the dead' rituals? 

8 hours ago, back to earth said:

13 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Well, I don't know that he actually said as much.  One thing I would like to say -- archeology does not tell us what people were thinking or why they left this or that artifact behind, either at a tomb or somewhere else.  We often infer things that may not be the case -- take the cave paintings -- the presumption is they were some sort of ritual asking forgiveness for killing these beasts,

Whose presumption ?     I have never heard that one and I have been studying the subject for some time and also have access to a living tradition and their reasons why they do such things.

I always wonder at what the possibility of thoughts coming from a culture that is being studied. I think half the adventure is coming to an educated assumption from what clues left behind. I wonder at how historical fiction authors would come by their plots and such, because of what they have researched and then have the 'inventiveness to assume' that 'maybe' certain events occurred.  Of course, considering it's from a 'historical fiction' novel, you can't blast it for being wrong. When it's a fiction in the end, that is.  

I worked with one wonder past co-worker, who also has a degree and has done jobs in Archeology. We had a discussion at one point, that possibly that Katherine of Aragon was probably a negative antigen blood type, and that's why she lost so many children in childbirth and pregnancy. I remember feeling my synapses go berserk and feel how that seems to clinch with me.  It's a wonder how one could probably come to conclusions based on what clues are left, and another can't because of the same thing. 

*shrugs*

7 hours ago, back to earth said:

13 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Well, I don't know that he actually said as much.  One thing I would like to say -- archeology does not tell us what people were thinking or why they left this or that artifact behind, either at a tomb or somewhere else.  We often infer things that may not be the case -- take the cave paintings -- the presumption is they were some sort of ritual asking forgiveness for killing these beasts, but it could easily be must a spooky place with paintings intended as part of a coming-of-age ritual intended to scare the teenagers.  We can't know and I think it inappropriate to call something "religion" when we really can't know.

(Continued ) 

1.  re 'scaring the teenagers' .  There does seem some dynamic like that , but also as an initiation  or test , in prep for manhood ( and what it might mean for a hunter or gatherer or many  other aspects of life  back then,  ) - more to the point ; how he will react and respond even though he is ;scared to death' . 

2.  " We can't know and I think it inappropriate to call something "religion" when we really can't know. "   Some call some initiation rites religion and some do not.   Sometimes the rites seem like civil celebrations ,,, except back then there was no 'civil' either.  Think of civil, religious, secular , in some cases ; political or military   as having no difference .  It's the way their societies seem structured. 

The issue is  we now make a distinction between things religious and secular or scientific.  No distinction back then. 

Its not that they didnt do things that we do now that we call religion , its more that there was no distinction between  those things and the 'real'  or physical 'physical'    or no distinction between the 'real and the ideal ' .

Its hard to explain,  Butterworth does a much better job than I could, which is why I cite him , and the  scholars on it, much better too.

But as I said this is all rehash, its all been put up before  (under protest of you-know-who of course  ) 

I think I understand. (Emphasis on 'think'. I know, I could be wholly wrong on this.) But, with today's world of more secular political and civil attitudes, ideals, and laws, we have a more split of what is considered the truth of laws in life to live by, and what is part of a person's subjective and personal part of their life that partner's with it. And even then, it's mostly assumed, that these people still put the secular laws of the land as more important, than also consider their personal and subjective spirituality afterwards. ( like me!?  ) 

In the past, I feel a lot of cultures were merged on that and not as 'forked'.  

7 hours ago, back to earth said:

Yes, this is the 'evidence based' approach .   But it fun to extrapolate from the evidence.  Then , if we go to a source of living tradition, it is even more interesting !  regarding the 'cave paintings'  * here they may be in caves , overhangs, 'rock shelter'  outcrops or any unusual geological formation .... 

" We  paint the paintings ??   No ....   we touch them up, look after , fix them up.  They always been there ,  from Dreamtime . "

The idea here was that the paintings of each thing and form are the original form of that thing laid down in creation and the  plants animals and people are generated by the paintings .             I would never have  supposed that one by myself ! 

I pretty have felt that the cave paintings were their history books and wanted to tell their story in more ways than one. (the scare part, makes me intrigued. )

 

[Dhurfjooydig]

15 hours ago, back to earth said:

For more on this and  I recommend  Herzog  ; 

well worth the time ! 

Humans 35k years ago (and even 100k years ago) had the same cognitive capacity as modern people. This means that among them very likely existed people with genius level intellectual skills. It is a choice we make whether to see what they have left behind through a very modern culturally-conditioned religious / spiritual lens (and thus declare what is seen as an expression of 'religiosity' or 'spirituality') or see what they have left behind through an intellectual / conceptual lens (and thus begin to understand intellectual concepts being expressed). It is an unfortunate bias of religion / spirituality saturated modern culture that the former lens is most commonly used when looking back at premodern people's expressions.

Fortunately, some researchers don't auto-default to the 'religious / spiritual' lens. For example, It’s now thought by some paleo-astronomers that the exquisite Lascaux cave paintings in southwestern France that have been dated to approximately 18,000 BCE are records of the zodiac constellations, fixed stars, and solstice points. All of the constellations, with the exception of Aquarius and segments of Pisces, are represented by corresponding animals. It’s believed that the cave itself served as a gnomon (calendric device), with a ray of the sun penetrating the cave on the summer solstice and lighting up the painting of the Red Bull in the Hall of Bulls (it was the constellation Taurus (the bull) that dominated the summer solstice sky). An analysis of 130 caves in the immediate area has shown a common orientation to the sunrise and sunset at summer and winter solstice and spring and autumn equinox (Jègues-Wolkiewiez 2000). It has also been recently confirmed that geometrical patterns in Lascaux Cave are a form of archaic writing based on astronomical values, similar to other sites ... see:

 http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/01/28/analysis-of-the-astronomical-data-contained-within-the-engraved-stone-uncovered-at-the-shuidonggou-paleolithic-site-northwest-china/  

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/10/study-of-astronomical-text-on-the-dolni-vestonice-venus-figure/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-paleolithic-tally-marks/

Back to Chauvet Cave (the subject of Herzog's video) ... at 33-35k years ago, it also contains geometrical astronomical writing: 

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2014/01/28/analysis-of-the-bear-claw-pattern-at-chauvet-cave/

"The angular values present in the Chauvet Cave drawing thus appears to be “identical” to those present in the Lascaux geometrical drawings. Here the term identical refers to all patterns found in Lascaux and Chauvet being consistent with values astronomers use to predict eclipse events, or astronomical values relating to the moon, or lunar/solar year."

Of course, those that insist on seeing premodern / ancient people as mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots will see this as evidence of 'religion' and 'spirituality' ... which tells us more about them than it does about premodern / ancient people ... but sensible people will recognize that this level of intellectual expression seriously begs the question: if we acknowledge intellectual capacity and drop the religious / spiritual lens ... what is it that provoked ancient people to track celestial mechanics so carefully and consistently for thousands of years (keeping in mind that hunter-gatherers 35k years ago weren't using it to know when to plant or harvest). It begs the question: what rational reason would they have had 35k years ago to track celestial mechanics and to still be tracking them 18k years ago ... and still be tracking them 10k years ago ... and still be tracking them 1k years ago? It must have been something pretty darned important ...

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[back to earth]

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The subject of that sentence was Neandertals. ie" Neandertals ......... at some point  also developed spiritual thinking............"  Stick with your image based communication forms. 

More juggling ... like the way you worded the rest of that sentence ;   " go back over 100000 years, and at some point  "    'religion'  could go back 100,000 years  but   'at some point'  it was developed. because denisovans go back that far and they related to  Neanderthals ... but you dont mean Denisovans or 100000 years  ... just neanderthals and at some point .

So why mention the Denisovans and 1000000 years in the first place !

Thats how you 'seed' your statements. 

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

How are you getting round my ignore?   Both some of your posts, and some of sherapy's, appear on a page first up when i go to it,   although they later are hidden.   It seems almost as if,  if i have responded to one post of yours, then  the next one you write comes up as visible.  

OMG !   That means you are NOT ignoring them ....  can you get more thick !    Take a pill or something ... go out get some oxygen in your brain ! 

(turns off computer volume... then turns it back up  to hear things ... then cant figure out why volume is on        )

  OR   ...  Stop telling lies  and blaming me for the silly made up excuses that you are  using to try to cover up such lies . 

Like I have a way of 'getting around' your  ignore function.    Pfffft ! 

Like I used to say to my childhood friends little brother; "If you gonna tell lies, at least put some effort in and make them good ones ! "

[Dhurfjooydig]

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

ANY ritualised spiritual behaviour is religious behaviour  Something you either refuse to get or simply ignore  

There is almost NO behaviour in ealry people which is not spiritual or religious based. its how the y thought about life and nature.  You did not hunt, gather, plant or harvest, without communing with the spirits and gods You did not make anything or do anything without asking the gods for help or permission. In ealry human minds the gods and spirits RULED the ancient worlds not humans. You did not cut timber or even enter a forest without permission   You did not go fishing without praying to the gods of the sea and air.You wore or carried symbolic charms like odins hammer for protection.  Even earlier you used attractive stones from a river or beach,  or crystals, as talismans and charms. You carved objects from animal bone for the same purpose,  

There is nothing inherently 'spiritual' or 'religious' about ritual or the use of symbols ... therefore your insistence that premodern / ancient rituals are 'spiritual' and 'religious' is just a cultural projection, likely fueled by an emotional reaction, likely based on 'religious' belief.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And what on earth  is the Eternal return and how can it be a known physical reality?    Never mind i looked it up . 

Fascinating ... you "looked it up" and just like that you feel bigly qualified to teach us about this ancient, complex, nuanced, and extensively debated concept / phenomenon.  

Edited May 25, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[back to earth]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No that simply untrue and there is absolutely NO evidence for such a theory.  

We know from modern primitive behaviours and historical records that grave goods (and also how humans treat their dead for burial)  reflect a self aware consciousness of the nature of life and death,  and are an attempt by the living to reconcile life and death There is enough written by ancient egyptians on their own beliefs, customs, and ceremonies, alone, for us to be certain of this.

 ANY ritualised spiritual behaviour is religious behaviour  Something you either refuse to get or simply ignore  

There is almost NO behaviour in ealry people which is not spiritual or religious based. its how the y thought about life and nature.  You did not hunt, gather, plant or harvest, without communing with the spirits and gods You did not make anything or do anything without asking the gods for help or permission. In ealry human minds the gods and spirits RULED the ancient worlds not humans. You did not cut timber or even enter a forest without permission   You did not go fishing without praying to the gods of the sea and air.You wore or carried symbolic charms like odins hammer for protection.  Even earlier you used attractive stones from a river or beach,  or crystals, as talismans and charms. You carved objects from animal bone for the same purpose,  

Yet again, you put  forward my own evidence yet you dispute it when I write it !  You a real strange fellow ! 

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And what on earth  is the Eternal return and how can it be a known physical reality?    Never mind i looked it up . This is a relatively late philosophy eg egyptian  and greek.  Some argue it is not religious but philosophical, yet it appears also as a religious form of belief in many religions like jainism sikhism buddhism and hinduism.  

Not valid as you looked it up and it is Egyptian , yet above you cited Egyptian beliefs as you believe they supported what you saying then .    

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

it is NOT, however, a physical reality but a philosophical point of view about human life.

 

Whereas  your own incredible,  wacky and unusual spiritual beliefs are reality and physical         

 

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

There is no actual evidence that there is a cyclical nature to birth and death, or human existence for example, but rather a linear one.

This  is a religious belief which grew out of the cyclical nature of some things in nature. like seasons  and the regrowing of plants/crops from seed. It is an example of adapting religious belief to observable reality in order to make sense of life.    Humans do NOT recycle like plants or seasons (more is the pity) but its an understandable analogy for non scientific minds to construct.

Of course they do !  Where on earth do you get these ideas from Walker !  

I suppose YOU yourself thought you knew what  this analogy meant and judged that wrong ... you have not a clue about such things and it is obvious by what you write !  This is the same assumptive problem the 'superior' modern western mind has that is at the root of you not being able to understand that the concept of religion is a modern thing, developed post 1400 after a split of the m= human psychological paradigm into 'real and ideal' .. you will never understand it until you read Butterfield (and knowing you, probably not even then ) .

A seed comes from the two 'sexually differentiated' parts of a plant , a human comes from the two similar parts of a human.

It lives and then dies, like a human.  During life it can make more of its kind, like a human.  A death, it decomposes and its constituent parts dissolve and make more new plants, the plant as it was does not shoot up again (if it does after winter, it was not dead in the first place ) .  Ancient peoples were not stupid.

What is stupid is the modern suppositions of how we thought the thought .  

And please dont try to pretend you understand concepts of ancient Egyptian  psychic anatomy  and thought and the concepts of the numerous parts and functions that make up a whole person and the star journey afterwards . If you claim knowledge on that . meet me up in the ancient mysteries forum and i will gladly debate you there ... where the experts and professionals are ! 

But I know you wont go near that place with such ideas , like you will not go near the science forums with your 'scientific ideas' .

I wonder why ????? 

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Tell me no solid ground; when YOU go to a loved ones grave and leave flowers or a child's toy  etc., what are YOU thinking.

"Oh This is me   constructing a symbolic (but not religious )  and non mystical  nod to  the elemental return?"

Or

 "I do this in remembrance of you and our love?  I do it for myself to maintain a connection in my mind  so that even though our physical connection is lost  you remain a part of me" ?

Ancient  people thought and felt just like you or me.

How do you know that ?

I can assure you . many people are still left that think the way of ancient thought .  I would love to see the reaction you get from explaining your thought to some Aboriginal people I know and watching them react to your claim that you think just like them    

 

Dude !   Even WE dont think 'just like you '     

 

Ohhhh   classic !  

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Religious forms were used to express spiritual feelings  which helped them cope with loss and death (among many other things they had to cope with) We don't have to cope with fears about wild animals and famine etc but we still fear death and separation and so we still use ritualised religious behaviors to cope.  Humans have been putting flowers on graves for around  50000 years and we know this is a deliberate religious ritual from about 15000 years ago.    

barking up the wrong tree. its not about acts , its about ... yet again ... the division in conceptual thinking between 'real' and 'ideal'.

But you won't stop, I know that ... you be barkin up that wrong tree forever , while all the  local cats  sit in the other trees around you laughing . 

[back to earth]

Here is a classic Walkerism ;

 

  20 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

The leaving of grave goods was a symbolic (non-religious, non-mystical) nod to and reminder of the physical reality understood as the Eternal Return. 

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No that simply untrue and there is absolutely NO evidence for such a theory.  

We know from modern primitive behaviours and historical records ...  < blah blah blah > ... 

And what on earth  is the Eternal return ...

 Never mind i looked it up . This is a relatively late philosophy eg egyptian  and greek.

 

Goes from  no , what you said is  'simply untrue'       to        "absolutely NO evidence "     to       "       Never mind i looked it up "   ......        ' It is ... ' 

Says you wrong, it is untrue ... wait I looked it up  ....   it is       

[back to earth]

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Sorry, I was kind of being snarky. Not snarky at you, being snarky with you.    I think I was channeling my inner Jim Carrey.

 

 

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well the link does have the actual book! Which kudos to you! Not the link to advertise it for you to buy it. All of it in it's  ebook form glory! Now, if some on these boards took your lead in providing links, we all would get along. There's a lot there, and I glanced through it a bit. You do realize, I have always respected your posts, and that I believe them. (Though, I am wondering if your link can be downloaded into one of my ereaders. Or atleast, uploaded into one. *shrugs* Sidemoved?

Thats why I reccommed just reading Ch 1 to get the  specific point I am making . Of course you wanna read all of it - go for it ! 

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have felt that the origins have always been in more than one area and time on this world. I wonder, does the basics match each other?  

 

deffinately ....   its a generalisation based on the formation of a new 'western world paradigm' , its general, looking at certain trends. The rest of the book outlines specifics of time and place ( eg,  certain discoveries about  blood and circulation,  due in part to development of microscope - due in part to advances in  grinding and lense technology etc . 

of course  some peeps today still live hunter gatherer lifestyles, while others spend all day on the internet    

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

 

Nice post, I believe Frank.  

This reminds me of reading up on the history of the Native Americans, on how a lot of their gods and spirits tended to be in animal form. ( I wonder how at the 'spirit animal' that I often hear about too. ) I think of other cultures and think of how animals are incorporated into their beliefs. And I wonder, how they come to consider that. 

Does this have a tie-in to the 'day of the dead' rituals? 

I always wonder at what the possibility of thoughts coming from a culture that is being studied. I think half the adventure is coming to an educated assumption from what clues left behind. I wonder at how historical fiction authors would come by their plots and such, because of what they have researched and then have the 'inventiveness to assume' that 'maybe' certain events occurred.  Of course, considering it's from a 'historical fiction' novel, you can't blast it for being wrong. When it's a fiction in the end, that is.  

Yes, I find that very interesting , eg .  Christian Jaques  ( sic ? )  historical  fiction novels re ancient Egypt, based on his archaeology work .....   fun to fill in the gaps ... I loved those books . but they are , in essence fiction  BASED ON some things we know. And some wild imagination to make a good read  

A tactic someone else here uses    

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I worked with one wonder past co-worker, who also has a degree and has done jobs in Archeology. We had a discussion at one point, that possibly that Katherine of Aragon was probably a negative antigen blood type, and that's why she lost so many children in childbirth and pregnancy. I remember feeling my synapses go berserk and feel how that seems to clinch with me.  It's a wonder how one could probably come to conclusions based on what clues are left, and another can't because of the same thing. 

Note bolded  

Here is the researchers' danger signal ;  "  Ooooooooo ..  I like     that  possibility !   Let's see if we can find evidence for it ! "

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

*shrugs*

I think I understand. (Emphasis on 'think'. I know, I could be wholly wrong on this.) But, with today's world of more secular political and civil attitudes, ideals, and laws, we have a more split of what is considered the truth of laws in life to live by, and what is part of a person's subjective and personal part of their life that partner's with it. And even then, it's mostly assumed, that these people still put the secular laws of the land as more important, than also consider their personal and subjective spirituality afterwards. ( like me!?  ) 

yep, that one way to look at it .   We can give  religion and religious beliefs one   type of reality   (its not concrete and physical, but is real dues to its effects it has on some people) and we 'know' hard physical reality is something different. 

The other way of looking at it is no separation between the two each are as valid and real as each other and in the same 'class'  ... just like walker argues for the reality for his God being a real physical being ...  (which is so weird in him not getting this !   ) . 

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

In the past, I feel a lot of cultures were merged on that and not as 'forked'.  

  yes,  our culture got pretty   'forked' by it        

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I pretty have felt that the cave paintings were their history books and wanted to tell their story in more ways than one. (the scare part, makes me intrigued. )

 

 

Spoiler

 Boooo   !    

 

 

 

[back to earth]

4 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Humans 35k years ago (and even 100k years ago) had the same cognitive capacity as modern people. This means that among them very likely existed people with genius level intellectual skills. It is a choice we make whether to see what they have left behind through a very modern culturally-conditioned religious / spiritual lens (and thus declare what is seen as an expression of 'religiosity' or 'spirituality') or see what they have left behind through an intellectual / conceptual lens (and thus begin to understand intellectual concepts being expressed). It is an unfortunate bias of religion / spirituality saturated modern culture that the former lens is most commonly used when looking back at premodern people's expressions.

Fortunately, some researchers don't auto-default to the 'religious / spiritual' lens. For example, It’s now thought by some paleo-astronomers that the exquisite Lascaux cave paintings in southwestern France that have been dated to approximately 18,000 BCE are records of the zodiac constellations, fixed stars, and solstice points. All of the constellations, with the exception of Aquarius and segments of Pisces, are represented by corresponding animals. It’s believed that the cave itself served as a gnomon (calendric device), with a ray of the sun penetrating the cave on the summer solstice and lighting up the painting of the Red Bull in the Hall of Bulls (it was the constellation Taurus (the bull) that dominated the summer solstice sky). An analysis of 130 caves in the immediate area has shown a common orientation to the sunrise and sunset at summer and winter solstice and spring and autumn equinox (Jègues-Wolkiewiez 2000). It has also been recently confirmed that geometrical patterns in Lascaux Cave are a form of archaic writing based on astronomical values, similar to other sites ... see:

 http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/01/28/analysis-of-the-astronomical-data-contained-within-the-engraved-stone-uncovered-at-the-shuidonggou-paleolithic-site-northwest-china/  

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/10/study-of-astronomical-text-on-the-dolni-vestonice-venus-figure/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-paleolithic-tally-marks/

Back to Chauvet Cave (the subject of Herzog's video) ... at 33-35k years ago, it also contains geometrical astronomical writing: 

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2014/01/28/analysis-of-the-bear-claw-pattern-at-chauvet-cave/

"The angular values present in the Chauvet Cave drawing thus appears to be “identical” to those present in the Lascaux geometrical drawings. Here the term identical refers to all patterns found in Lascaux and Chauvet being consistent with values astronomers use to predict eclipse events, or astronomical values relating to the moon, or lunar/solar year."

Of course, those that insist on seeing premodern / ancient people as mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots will see this as evidence of 'religion' and 'spirituality' ... which tells us more about them than it does about premodern / ancient people ... but sensible people will recognize that this level of intellectual expression seriously begs the question: if we acknowledge intellectual capacity and drop the religious / spiritual lens ... what is it that provoked ancient people to track celestial mechanics so carefully and consistently for thousands of years (keeping in mind that hunter-gatherers 35k years ago weren't using it to know when to plant or harvest). It begs the question: what rational reason would they have had 35k years ago to track celestial mechanics and to still be tracking them 18k years ago ... and still be tracking them 10k years ago ... and still be tracking them 1k years ago? It must have been something pretty darned important ...

 

Yep ... its called    'staying alive ' 

here is a local example    '  a certain ineup of the two indicates the permissible times to  collect emu eggs for food .

 

Why ... or why not at other times - their reason ; 'Thats the Law ! '  end of story !

Our observation "  if laws like this aren to kept, the species numbers (and even existence ) suffers, hence putting the environment out of balance and messing up your own food supply.   A knowledge and intelligence sadly missing in today's world ; 

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120920-are-we-running-out-of-fish

These people protected their environment  in a stability that lasted over 40,000 years . Lets see how long our society can do that .... oh , we already stuffed up actually.

There is also another set of beliefs ( actually intimately related as, again, there were no such divisions then , including between ' environmental indicators', seasonal hunting and collecting ,  times to move and travel etc .     and      stages in the development of the psyche ( rites of passage and initiations )   ..... one example of this is in the northern Australian 'Wardaman culture' and the stories about the Milky way and the boy the that bit the dog's ear ( 'up there' )  ... seemingly a totally 'different set' of uses reasons and indicators (until you get into the depth of it ) . 

Another example is many of the sky stories here are extensions of land , not two separate realms  (how could they be for people that live and sleep under the sky and stars. In desert country at hot times, many activities are done at night and sleep in day.  If you can run fast enough, out to the horizon, you could run up into the stars and sky     

And even stars were not considered something different ; they were both  'Ooooo-ahhhhs'   ( term for 'stars' in Bundjalung lingo ) - nice beautiful things to look at  but also the camp fires of people camped out along the banks, waterholes and billabongs of the big river up there 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

PS .    I like your appreciation of ancient peoples. I been dealing with an idiot upstairs (in ancient mystery / alt. history forum 0 that goes on about stupid dumb 'cave scribblers'     and just cant see the genius execution * in some of these artworks ( re the 'cave art' ) 

* See 'cave of Forgotten Dream ' vid , where it is explained for those that cant see it . 

Edited May 26, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

There is nothing inherently 'spiritual' or 'religious' about ritual or the use of symbols ... therefore your insistence that premodern / ancient rituals are 'spiritual' and 'religious' is just a cultural projection, likely fueled by an emotional reaction, likely based on 'religious' belief.

EXXXXXXXXXX    ACTLY ! 

 

Thing is Walker sees there is  something          inherently 'spiritual' or 'religious' about ritual or the use of symbols   ... so it must be an objective truth !      

Oh wait ... I forgot , he doesnt comprehend or understand symbols  ( thats his own insistence he used to get out of other bother he got himself in      ) 

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

Fascinating ... you "looked it up" and just like that you feel bigly qualified to teach us about this ancient, complex, nuanced, and extensively debated concept / phenomenon.  

You will learn more about him as you go along.   I know you think we are harsh to him .  Give yourself a year of similar , then see how you go     

He loves 'looking things up '  he will race off to look things up so he can dispute with you, but he has history of misinterpreting the evidence to suit his nias in what he does look up, This was very evident in his weeks long raves about how going to church cures virtually every ill of the western world           followed by shifting moving goal posts strawmen dancing segways ... you name it , the whole shebang ! 

[Dhurfjooydig]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

"Oh This is me   constructing a symbolic (but not religious )  and non mystical  nod to  the elemental return?"

Or

 "I do this in remembrance of you and our love?  I do it for myself to maintain a connection in my mind  so that even though our physical connection is lost  you remain a part of me" ?

 

These aren't mutually exclusive ... and there's nothing inherently 'religious' or 'spiritual' about either. The mnemonic nod to / remembrance of the 'eternal return' would have served to preserve this concept in society ... and visiting a grave with flowers is a mnemonic ritual that served/serves to preserve the memory of the dead for individual (psychological) and community (cohesiveness) purposes ... in the same way that gnomonic rituals are a mnemonic acknowledgement of the dynamic information being generated by the gnomon and not 'religiosity' or 'spirituality' ... which is why there is no term for either of these two very modern concepts (or any terms that corresponds to them) in premodern / ancient languages. 

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Humans 35k years ago (and even 100k years ago) had the same cognitive capacity as modern people. This means that among them very likely existed people with genius level intellectual skills. It is a choice we make whether to see what they have left behind through a very modern culturally-conditioned religious / spiritual lens (and thus declare what is seen as an expression of 'religiosity' or 'spirituality') or see what they have left behind through an intellectual / conceptual lens (and thus begin to understand intellectual concepts being expressed). It is an unfortunate bias of religion / spirituality saturated modern culture that the former lens is most commonly used when looking back at premodern people's expressions.

Fortunately, some researchers don't auto-default to the 'religious / spiritual' lens. For example, It’s now thought by some paleo-astronomers that the exquisite Lascaux cave paintings in southwestern France that have been dated to approximately 18,000 BCE are records of the zodiac constellations, fixed stars, and solstice points. All of the constellations, with the exception of Aquarius and segments of Pisces, are represented by corresponding animals. It’s believed that the cave itself served as a gnomon (calendric device), with a ray of the sun penetrating the cave on the summer solstice and lighting up the painting of the Red Bull in the Hall of Bulls (it was the constellation Taurus (the bull) that dominated the summer solstice sky). An analysis of 130 caves in the immediate area has shown a common orientation to the sunrise and sunset at summer and winter solstice and spring and autumn equinox (Jègues-Wolkiewiez 2000). It has also been recently confirmed that geometrical patterns in Lascaux Cave are a form of archaic writing based on astronomical values, similar to other sites ... see:

 http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/01/28/analysis-of-the-astronomical-data-contained-within-the-engraved-stone-uncovered-at-the-shuidonggou-paleolithic-site-northwest-china/  

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/10/study-of-astronomical-text-on-the-dolni-vestonice-venus-figure/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-paleolithic-tally-marks/

Back to Chauvet Cave (the subject of Herzog's video) ... at 33-35k years ago, it also contains geometrical astronomical writing: 

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2014/01/28/analysis-of-the-bear-claw-pattern-at-chauvet-cave/

"The angular values present in the Chauvet Cave drawing thus appears to be “identical” to those present in the Lascaux geometrical drawings. Here the term identical refers to all patterns found in Lascaux and Chauvet being consistent with values astronomers use to predict eclipse events, or astronomical values relating to the moon, or lunar/solar year."

Of course, those that insist on seeing premodern / ancient people as mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots will see this as evidence of 'religion' and 'spirituality' ... which tells us more about them than it does about premodern / ancient people ... but sensible people will recognize that this level of intellectual expression seriously begs the question: if we acknowledge intellectual capacity and drop the religious / spiritual lens ... what is it that provoked ancient people to track celestial mechanics so carefully and consistently for thousands of years (keeping in mind that hunter-gatherers 35k years ago weren't using it to know when to plant or harvest). It begs the question: what rational reason would they have had 35k years ago to track celestial mechanics and to still be tracking them 18k years ago ... and still be tracking them 10k years ago ... and still be tracking them 1k years ago? It must have been something pretty darned important ...

 

Yes the y had the same cognitive capacity.  They did NOT however have any of the same knowledge of science or nature that we do, and even a genius had no way to access it   We don't attribute spirituality and religion to them because we are spiritual religious and they were not,  but precisely BECAUSE our cognitive processing has not changed.  We have the same spirituality and religious senses and cognitive patterns as they did

lol Ancient peolpe were hundreds of times more spiritual and religious than modern  humans.  They lived lives where spirits were real powerful forces to them.

Its quite possible the ancients used cave paintings to record astronomical observations we know that most ancient megaliths had an astronomical connection BUT we also know the y were built to serve the religious and spiritual needs  of the builders.  Because they believed that  their lives depended on nature and the gods/spirits, BOTH were observed carefully and were combined into practical applications So seasons could be known for planting but also to propitiate the gods spirits associated with each season at the right time.  There is, however, the other possibility that human pattern  recognition tends to make people see things which don't really exist like the ley lines between ancient sites.  Ie that researchers are attributing patterns with a purpose that never existed.  

You see, OBSERVATION and recording can give a good knowledge of things like the "movement"  of stars or seasons but it CANNOT give a scientific or rational understanding of them This requires physical knowledge and learned understandings impossible for ancient people to achieve . 

They  were not idiots.  Dont be stupid yourself . They were as intelligent as us, but limited by data and knowledge which could not be attained with the technologies available to them  You would be the same today if brought up on a deserted  island by a robot who cared for you but never imparted any knowledge or understanding of your world to you and never answered any of your questions.  What would you make, i wonder, of thunder lightning the stars,moon and sun with only observation and your own mind to inform you , and what would you make of the strange movement of some objects high in the sky by day and by night  . 

[back to earth]

17 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

These aren't mutually exclusive ... and there's nothing inherently 'religious' or 'spiritual' about either. The mnemonic nod to / remembrance of the 'eternal return' would have served to preserve this concept in society ... and visiting a grave with flowers is a mnemonic ritual that served/serves to preserve the memory of the dead for individual (psychological) and community (cohesiveness) purposes ... in the same way that gnomonic rituals are a mnemonic acknowledgement of the dynamic information being generated by the gnomon and not 'religiosity' or 'spirituality' ... which is why there is no term for either of these two very modern concepts (or any terms that corresponds to them) in premodern / ancient languages. 

Here is another way to explain it .   before we invented 'psychology'  it was not a separate branch of medicine . 

OF COURSE  people still had psychology , and manipulated it with drugs, ritual , dancing whatever , but it, for a time, was a part of medicine and not distinguished from it.  And before that 'medicine ' and medical practice was not distinct from ritual and offerings. 

Now we go  (  or  say . to the  'primitive'  peoples ) ..... oh no ... that is a real physical thing  ... and THAT  (other thing ) is a psychological response from you to the outer  environment ."

 And they ;  "  What outer environment ?   I am part of the environment !  " 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, back to earth said:

Here is a classic Walkerism ;

 

  20 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

The leaving of grave goods was a symbolic (non-religious, non-mystical) nod to and reminder of the physical reality understood as the Eternal Return. 

 

Goes from  no , what you said is  'simply untrue'       to        "absolutely NO evidence "     to       "       Never mind i looked it up "   ......        ' It is ... ' 

Says you wrong, it is untrue ... wait I looked it up  ....   it is       

Two different subjects this time.  The first was grave goods which we know are laid down because of human awareness of the nature of life and death and the spiritual construction of hopes for some return from death or a s a sign of repsect  to the dead from the living . These are religious spiritual patterns of thinking. The second was the eternal return  which i had not heard of so  i looked it up.

Turns out it is NOT just a philosophical or practical theory but actually a religious construct or spiritual philosophy and definitely both spiritual/religious and mystical in some religions, as well as a practical observation of patterns in nature. .

 MAybe you aren't really nasty you just  honestly can't read well.  and damn it now ALL your posts are appearing. 

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

There is nothing inherently 'spiritual' or 'religious' about ritual or the use of symbols ... therefore your insistence that premodern / ancient rituals are 'spiritual' and 'religious' is just a cultural projection, likely fueled by an emotional reaction, likely based on 'religious' belief.

Fascinating ... you "looked it up" and just like that you feel bigly qualified to teach us about this ancient, complex, nuanced, and extensively debated concept / phenomenon.  

Actually there is and is it is a matter of different understandings. it goes to the thinking behind and the way in which symbols and rituals are used. The pint is tha t human patterns ofcognition have not changed thus as we think so did our ancient forebears the only difference is in the accumulated knowledge and data we hold. 

YUP   it is clear from a short reading (and i read and scan/comprehend  a page of text in a second or two so it doesn't take long)   what the eternal return is and how it came to be a philosophy (remember i have 60 years of study and accumulated knowledge about history human cognition and psychology to draw upon. and to help me understand  The concept is familiar to me. The actual name was not. /

The source you gave made it clear tha t in part it is a deduction based on observations of nature which are then applied to humans (this is the basis for most spiritual religious thinking )

By itself that doesn't have to be religious but it leads to false conclusions eg that because seasons have cycles, so do civilizations. However the principle is also embedded into many religions especially indo european ones, where it is given a religious/ spiritual element about resurrection  rebirth etc. and that the human mind /spirit lives through cycles  This ALSO falls under the heading " the eternal return " and so your claim that  this is NOT a religious/spiritual philosophy is actually false  Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. And its those 60 years of reading and study which informs or gives me knowledge about the nature of ancient peole and their spiritual and religious forms of think and connection to the naturla world

 I could just a s easily argue tha t you cling to this unsupported theory because it its  your need to disbelieve that humans are innately spiritual and religious as part of the evolved cognitive processing of our minds.   

[Mr Walker]

And now, having refreshed my page, and  responded to the first  post by BTE, all his posts are hidden again, so i will leave them  that way  I am wondering its because when i get a little message a t the bottom of the page (24 new posts ) and click on tha t message it just shows me ALL new posts including those from posters i have put on ignore 

[Mr Walker]

31 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

These aren't mutually exclusive ... and there's nothing inherently 'religious' or 'spiritual' about either. The mnemonic nod to / remembrance of the 'eternal return' would have served to preserve this concept in society ... and visiting a grave with flowers is a mnemonic ritual that served/serves to preserve the memory of the dead for individual (psychological) and community (cohesiveness) purposes ... in the same way that gnomonic rituals are a mnemonic acknowledgement of the dynamic information being generated by the gnomon and not 'religiosity' or 'spirituality' ... which is why there is no term for either of these two very modern concepts (or any terms that corresponds to them) in premodern / ancient languages. 

That is religious and spiritual thinking.   You do understand that rather than some mystical magic, spirituality and religious forms beliefs symbols rituals etc. ARE psychological and cultural adaptations to help humans cope with the level of self awareness we have, combined with the lack of scientific knowledge and understanding we have ?

So, at  first, everything is spiritual and religious, and slowly these are confined to the remaining great unknowns like life and death 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Dhurfjooydig]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

That s religious and spiritual thinking.  

mne·mon·ic

nəˈmänik/

noun

1.

a device such as a pattern of letters, ideas, or associations that assists in remembering something.

 

---

 

... or ritual. Rituals can be entirely mnemonic in purpose without a shred of magical thinking / supernatural ideation / religiosity. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

mne·mon·ic

nəˈmänik/

noun

1.

a device such as a pattern of letters, ideas, or associations that assists in remembering something.

 

---

 

... or ritual. Rituals can be entirely mnemonic in purpose without a shred of magical thinking / supernatural ideation / religiosity. 

Not all rituals or mnemonics devices are religious,  but all religions use ritualised behaviours and devices of thought ,memory etc.  It is the same cognitive abilty to  ritualised behaviour and the same underlying need for ritual in human lives which enables spiritual and religious forms of thinking.   it is the PURPOSE or intent  behind a ritual which is important, and defines if it has a religious/ spiritual intent/nature, or not.  So a mnemonic  might be used by a shaman to remember important details of  years activity by a tribe or where animals were a t certain times of the year  or the ingredients for a healing potion.  Chants songs and sagas are mnemonic in nature and serve similar purposes Thus the y can be associated with religious or non religious purposes but because there was no separation between the spiritual and the material in ancient lives,  all things had an element of the spiritual in them . Thus  the chants and other devices were believed to ALSO have power in, and of, themselves. .   

[Dhurfjooydig]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

That is religious and spiritual thinking.   You do understand that rather than some mystical magic, spirituality and religious forms beliefs symbols rituals etc. ARE psychological and cultural adaptations to help humans cope with the level of self awareness we have, combined with the lack of scientific knowledge and understanding we have ?

So, at  first, everything is spiritual and religious, and slowly these are confined to the remaining great unknowns like life and death 

... and yet, Chauvet Cave (33-35k years ago), Lascaux Cave (18k years ago), Nabta Playa (7k years ago), Fajada Butte (1.5k years ago), Angkor Watt (1k years ago), Borobudur (1k years ago), and literally countless ancient megaliths / geoconstructions / architectural builds (all over the world) contain geometrical patters (which are a form of writing-based astronomical values that are consistent with modern astronomical values used to predict eclipses and other celestial mechanics) or reflections of (often complex and time spanning) celestial mechanics / alignments. This means that these ancient magical-thinking blockheads that you have conjured up in your mind were actually observing, tracking, measuring, recording, and preserving a record of physical processes (both terrestrial and celestial) and related scientific data. These observations and data were also encoded in oral / written narratives and symbols.

Given this, it's not hard to conclude that these astronomical-related constructions, allegorical narratives, and symbols were all elements of a complex sophisticated multilayered multifunctional mnemotechnical language, that encoded historical and scientific data, projected this data onto documented cycles of time (eternal return / precession of the equinoxes), and described a practical application of this data (as medicine) ... in the service of health and wellbeing. This complex mnemotechnical construct, taken as a whole, reflects meta-level conclusions related to the patterned predictability of future terrestrial / celestial patterns and processes, as well as  a deep knowledge of the effects of these patterns / processes on the thin fragile terrestrial biota within which humans are innately inseparably embedded in and at the effect of. 

No magical thinking. Nothing supernatural. No religion or spirituality. No mysticism. Just science and history and medicine, mnemonically preserved by intelligent people who had a clear sense of place and their place in it ... unlike modern people who are pathologically alienated from place and prone to religious / supernatural / mystical / spiritual fantasies and the perceptual hallucinations that result from these fantasies. The 'religion' and 'spirituality' you think you see is only there for you because you are putting it there in order to protect an emotion-based belief system that you were fed by the ruling class. Your fantasized simple-mindedness of premodern / ancient people is equally only there because you put it there ... this popular idea of the ancient mentally-deficient magical thinking idiot savage serves to create a sense of superiority that masks the barbarism of modern people that are destroying the ecosystem upon which the human species depends for its sustenance and survival. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

... and yet, Chauvet Cave (33-35k years ago), Lascaux Cave (18k years ago), Nabta Playa (7k years ago), Fajada Butte (1.5k years ago), Angkor Watt (1k years ago), Borobudur (1k years ago), and literally countless ancient megaliths / geoconstructions / architectural builds (all over the world) contain geometrical patters (which are a form of writing-based astronomical values that are consistent with modern astronomical values used to predict eclipses and other celestial mechanics) or reflections of (often complex and time spanning) celestial mechanics / alignments. This means that these ancient magical-thinking blockheads that you have conjured up in your mind were actually observing, tracking, measuring, recording, and preserving a record of physical processes (both terrestrial and celestial) and related scientific data. These observations and data were also encoded in oral / written narratives and symbols.

Given this, it's not hard to conclude that these astronomical-related constructions, allegorical narratives, and symbols were all elements of a complex sophisticated multilayered multifunctional mnemotechnical language, that encoded historical and scientific data, projected this data onto documented cycles of time (eternal return / precession of the equinoxes), and described a practical application of this data (as medicine) ... in the service of health and wellbeing. This complex mnemotechnical construct, taken as a whole, reflects meta-level conclusions related to the patterned predictability of future terrestrial / celestial patterns and processes, as well as  a deep knowledge of the effects of these patterns / processes on the thin fragile terrestrial biota within which humans are innately inseparably embedded in and at the effect of. 

No magical thinking. Nothing supernatural. No religion or spirituality. No mysticism. Just science and history and medicine, mnemonically preserved by intelligent people who had a clear sense of place and their place in it ... unlike modern people who are pathologically alienated from place and prone to religious / supernatural / mystical / spiritual fantasies and the perceptual hallucinations that result from these fantasies. The 'religion' and 'spirituality' you think you see is only there for you because you are putting it there in order to protect an emotion-based belief system that you were fed by the ruling class. Your fantasized simple-mindedness of premodern / ancient people is equally only there because you put it there ... this popular idea of the ancient mentally-deficient magical thinking idiot savage serves to create a sense of superiority that masks the barbarism of modern people that are destroying the ecosystem upon which the human species depends for its sustenance and survival. 

It is YOU using words like idiots or block heads  They were as clever as us and so could observe and even do primitive forms of geometry  This does not make them LESS superstitious than us (how could it?)   Obesrvation only allows your mind to go as far a s pre-existing knowledge and  available data takes you, so you  could observe and accurately record the movements of planets and NOT know what they were and think of them as living beings   HOW could any one even know that something as close as the sun or moon realy were without "modern"  scientific understandings.  You could observe the patterns of the seasons and have NO IDEA that this was caused by the axial tilt and revolution of the earth around the sun.  Telll me HOW anyone could know about axial tilt for example ?  it is only recorded about 3000 years ago in china and 750 years later by the greeks  So how does a shaman from m 10000 years ago explain the seasonal  cyclical nature of the climate ?  Observation and measurement only shows you results, it does not explain cause . 

allegorical narratives, and symbols were all elements of a complex sophisticated multilayered multifunctional mnemotechnical language That is rubbish and dressing it up in big words doesn't make it any less rubbish The simple answer is correct  People made accurate observations and measurements but, without any prior knowledge or  understanding of causal effect, fell back to the first form of human cognition ie magical thinking  ie  Something with intelligent purpose must CAUSE  such patterned and ordered behaviours.  Humans STILL think exactly the same way today.   This is not a product of christianity or modern thinking but the way human minds a re evolved to make order from chaos when they lack data. 

This whole paragraph is a lovely theory but fits none of the known facts either about early  humans spirituality and religion, oR the nature of human cognition and psychology   You are arguing that somehow these people with almost no conception of the reality surrounding them had developed a more sophisticated form of thinking than 21st century humans with all the datas and science a t ou tr fingertips.  We have this knowldge and yet most humans still rely on magical thinking Early humans had LESS knowledge and  were thus even more reliant  on, and  used the same form of, magical thinking to provide answers to questions. 

  The last paragraph is totally factually wrong,  and physically impossible, so it has nothing to do with any cognitive bias  it isn't even logical We know that indigenous australians are closely connected to place and space  and this is intertwined with their  spiritual beliefs and religious forms and practices 

Again no simple mindedness but it is physically impossible to construct scientific, knowledge based understandings, without either knowledge or science You cannot step out of the world and world view you live in   if you lack the knowledge to do so.

The only reason primitive peoples don't destroy their ecosystems is because they lack the technology to do so, and, without medical science, the death rates were so high that populations never expanded to put global pressure on resources (but australian aborigines certainly altered the  entire  ecosystem of australia into a fire climax form, and killed off quite a few species which preexisted them .)   They fought over local resources and diminished some local resources,  despite quite low population densities. Non technological peoples   did not set out to save the planet through enlightenment,  but were unable to threaten it due to scientific and technological inability to do so, and lack of population pressure other than in local areas.

Words like superior are emotive and subjective, Technology and science give modern humans great power to create and destroy.  This power began with fire and stone tools.   Early humans, like other animals, were adaptive to environment and inhabited comfortable niches with adequate resources. As technology and knowledge improved our capacity to live in more places improved ( One simple advance in technology in the middle ages meant a man could plow many more acres and much more effectively  farm the land than before, and hence more forests  could be cleared because withe same labour more area could be farmed.  

. ” Landes (1998, p. 41) notes that the heavy plough “opened up rich river valleys, turned land reclaimed from forest and sea into fertile fields, in short it did wonders wherever the heavy, clayey soil resisted the older Roman wooden scratch plow, which had worked well enough on the gravelly soils of the Mediterranean basin.” In fact, the historiography of medieval technology and its impacts contains a large amount of circumstantial evidence pointing towards a crucial role of the heavy plough for medieval economic development (see Poulsen 1997; Jensen 2010; Pounds 1974)

http://eh.net/eha/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Skovsgaard.pdf

And like i said there IS no ruling class in the modern world.

it certainly therefore does not use religion to control peole and I have NEVER  had it fed to me. Ive studied it academically and experienced god as a personal and physical entity but never had it forced on me or used as a form of motivating force. Argue the academic merits of your case and  dont try some psychological guilt trip based on faulty data  to make a point. Religion (and spiritual belief)  is a personal force of liberation and freedom, not a tool of oppression That is the reason it is so strong so universal, so popular, and so successful.  It meets the genuine psychological needs of human beings.    It is often those who most seek to oppress us, who try to take religion away from us, as we saw historically in russia and today in china.   They fear the power and strength given to people by individual faith and belief, and they don't like the allegiances given to ideals or ideas, other than their own. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Dhurfjooydig]

7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Something with intelligent purpose must CAUSE  such patterned and ordered behaviours.

When a rock falls in a pond and the entire pond ripples ... what was the "something with intelligent purpose" that 'caused' the patterned ripples?