The Origins of Religion

[Mr Walker]

10 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

When a rock falls in a pond and the entire pond ripples ... what was the "something with intelligent purpose" that 'caused' the patterned ripples?

You wouldnt understand, because you have a modern, educated mind filled with knowledge data and information. Heck you probably even have a theoretical understanding of wave form and motion.     The thinking would go like this. The water and even the rock to a lesser extent is filled with a living essence which probably has a similar sort of self aware consciousness to my own. thus the rock flew through the air and hit the water because of intent and purpose NOTHING happens without intent and purpose. 

It might have been a water sprite, a spirit of the air,   an invisible entity might have thrown the rock   The first question to answer is, what caused the rock to fall into the water ? 

You did not answer my earlier question about how a person with no scientific knowldge would think  about  what was causing thunder and lightning and apparently trying to strike him dead . 

You might have misunderstood me. I know what caused the rock to fall and the ripples to form because i have scientific knowledge.    I know that nature evolves things with pattern and order without the need for  intelligent intent and purpose (I am an evolutionist not a creationist) and how and why this occurs. I was explaining how someone without a knowledge of  fractal patterns , inertia, momentum,  gravity, wave movement. etc. would be thinking (as children today think) 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Dhurfjooydig]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I was explaining how someone without a knowledge of  fractal patterns , inertia, momentum,  gravity, wave movement. etc. would be thinking (as children today think) 

And there ya go again ... saying ancient people had the mental capacity and conceptual ability of children.  There really is no point to continue discussion with you. Fini. 

[Mr Walker]

14 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

And there ya go again ... saying ancient people had the mental capacity and conceptual ability of children.  There really is no point to continue discussion with you. Fini. 

No I did not say that.

 i actually said the opposite, but your cognitive bias is not allowing you to comprehend.

When a human being lacks knowldge, their self aware mind demands answers to give itself security through certainty.

They  then construct answers, based on beliefs,  built on the only real understanding they have ( How THEIR minds work, and what motivates them ,which is why all early gods are basically given human attributes and motivations.

  MY point was this.

Today only children pre the abilty to speak and understand   lack basic scientific knowledge and experiential or learned knowledge and understanding. You cannot put yourself back into the mind of an ancient person and think like them, once you have knowledge 

 They think using magical thinking. In ancient times there was NO WAY for anyone to develop  a science based understanding of causes of things in nature (hence my mention of axial tilt which causes the earth's  seasons)  You could observe effects but without other associated knowledge and the necessary instruments, it was IMPOSSIBLE to accurately extrapolate causes and connections except by luck. 

Thus, even adults could only apply magical thinking and logic to create answers to the questions their minds kept asking  

 It is not a question of intelligence or mental capacity, but of education, knowledge, and being trained in scientific ways of thinking.

 However even the most brilliant person using scientific method can't understand accurately  why peole die from strange diseases without access to a microscope.  The closest they can come is to vapours, or miasmas,  or dirty water, or the observation that rats and mice seem to be associated with a disease.  Likewise  no one one could consistently and   successfully do blood transfusions, until blood typing was possible.     

[Dhurfjooydig]

Mr. Walker: I was explaining how someone without a knowledge of  fractal patterns , inertia, momentum,  gravity, wave movement. etc. would be thinking (as children today think) 

No Solid Ground: And there ya go again ... saying ancient people had the mental capacity and conceptual ability of children.

Mr. Walker: No I did not say that. i actually said the opposite, but your cognitive bias is not allowing you to comprehend. 

---

Wow 

[Mr Walker]

In most of the western world, it has been common to blame humans for hunting megafauna on other continents to extinction. In Australia, however, dominant ideologies propose that humans were in harmony with the landscape. Consequently, the extinction of the megafauna tends to be explained in ways that preserve these ideologies. For example, in 1998 David Bowman, an ecology expert from Charles Darwin University, argued that humans did not have the population density or the technology to efficiently wipe out megafauna.  According to Bowman:

"It should be remembered that it becomes increasingly difficult to kill off a species as their population is reduced to low levels because of the extra hunting effort required to find the last remaining animals." (2)

While Bowman was correct in his assertion that a decline in prey numbers would necessitate more work on behalf of the hunters, common sense would also stipulate that as numbers decline, a species' genetic diversity declines with it.  Whether the last animal dies as a result of a spear or disease is irrelevant because it was over hunting the caused population decline. By Bowman's logic, colonists should not have been able to kill off Tasmanian Tigers because as their numbers got low, hunting them would have been too much effort.

As an alternative to the over-hunting theory, Bowman proposed that the megafauna were wiped out by climactic changes that humans did their best to prevent with fire management. According to Bowman:

"They intervened and they changed the habitat balance with their fire management practices and, in doing so conserved some habitats, such as rainforest, that might otherwise have been lost during the extreme aridity that characterised the end of the last ice-age some 10,000 to 20,000 years ago." (2)

Like his theory that a decline in population would somehow save a species from over hunting, Bowman's theory that burning forests somehow preserved them was also shallow in logic. By Bowman's logic, people today should counter the threat of rainforest decline, global warming or drought by investing in some flame throwers.

A final problem with Bowman's theory is that almost all the biggest animals appear to have gone extinct well before the ice age reached its maximum, and at least 20,000 years before the megafauna from nth America went extinct. If the climate change was a global phenomenon, megafauna extinction around the world should have happened at a similar time.

http://www.convictcreations.com/aborigines/megafauna.html

 

New evidence involving the ancient poop of some of the huge and astonishing creatures that once roamed Australia indicates the primary cause of their extinction around 45,000 years ago was likely a result of humans, not climate change.

Miller said the extinction may have been caused by “imperceptible overkill.” A 2006 study by Australian researchers indicates that even low-intensity hunting of Australian megafauna – like the killing of one juvenile mammal per person per decade – could have resulted in the extinction of a species in just a few hundred years.

In 2016 Miller used burned eggshells of the 400-pound bird, Genyornis, as the first direct evidence that humans actually preyed on the Australian megafauna.

The new study also included Research Professor Scott Lehman of INSTAAR. The study was funded in part by the U.S. National Science Foundation and the German Research Foundation.

 

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/01/20/humans-not-climate-change-wiped-out-australian-megafauna/

Scientists have debated whether climate change or human activity wiped out the world's megafauna. In Australia new evidence  points to hunting--and only hunting

"Extinctions in other parts of the world were remarkably similar in pattern and severity to those that occurred in Australia," he notes. After all, human hunting wiped out similar species from in neighboring New Zealand less than a millennia ago. "This seems to strengthen the view that human impact—mainly hunting—was the predominant cause in other places as well as in Australia."

The findings seem to close the case against modern human hunters, although they remain to be confirmed at other sites throughout the continent. And, on every continent except Africa, human arrival and large animal extinctions seem to coincide, 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hunters-killed-off-big-animals-australia/

[Clarakore]

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

READ and believe ( or not)  . See again this post appeared,  maybe because i have just been answering another one of yours  Tomorrow it will have disappeared   I am sure some technician for UM could explain it but it is just annoying.  No lies except those constructed in your mind. 

You and I both know there is no technician for U-M who would be able to verify that. As it is not on the server or a bug in the software.

You and I both know you are not lying about some posts appearing even when the user is on ignore.

It is yourself who unaware is causing the glitch Walker. 

And it is a glitch but not in the computer but in the simulation called reality.

And that is not magical thinking to believe it even if that would be the likely explanation to believe it.

You are being tested and also called for more.

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Mr. Walker: I was explaining how someone without a knowledge of  fractal patterns , inertia, momentum,  gravity, wave movement. etc. would be thinking (as children today think) 

No Solid Ground: And there ya go again ... saying ancient people had the mental capacity and conceptual ability of children.

Mr. Walker: No I did not say that. i actually said the opposite, but your cognitive bias is not allowing you to comprehend. 

---

Wow 

Yup.  wow. Look, the english and concepts are pretty simple, especially for a brain like yours. So one must assume that, if you cant see the difference, then there is a cognitive bias preventing you from doing so.  Mental capacity  and conceptual abilty are different from, and to, acquired  KNOWLEDGE and understanding, which has to be built up on  other prior knowledge, using experience and collected data,

. Children and ancient adults are similar in their lack of knowledge and data, so their minds work in the same way to provide answers to the questions their minds generate  (So does the mind of a modern adult without knowledge or data) 

  Ancient humans had the same mental capacity as modern human adults AND children, because a child's capacity is the same as an adults'

 Only knowledge and data allows a person to make effective USE of this capacity, however. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are or what your mental capacity is.  Without certain knowledge, understandings, and technologies you cant arrive a  a knowledge based and accurate understanding of your environment ,and so you make stuff up to explain what you can see. .   

[Mr Walker]

Oh look. Magic!  BTEs last 10 posts, which were all open to me, until i began a new page  ( including those i answered and those i did not ) ,  are now all hidden again.  How cute.   As per protocol, if i can't see them i wont reply. 

[Mr Walker]

31 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

You and I both know there is no technician for U-M who would be able to verify that. As it is not on the server or a bug in the software.

You and I both know you are not lying about some posts appearing even when the user is on ignore.

It is yourself who unaware is causing the glitch Walker. 

And it is a glitch but not in the computer but in the simulation called reality.

And that is not magical thinking to believe it even if that would be the likely explanation to believe it.

You are being tested and also called for more.

 

lol  I like this.

It is both frustrating and amusing. I  realy prefer not to have to respond to BTE'S sarcasm and ridicule, but refuse to refrain when it is brought to my attention   I have no where near the technical understanding to know why this is happening, let alone do anything about it,  but as a person  incapable of taking anything on  faith, i suspect there is indeed a real glitch in the programing, which opens up ignored users under some circumstances.  I respond to the  circumstances, whatever the cause,   with honor, dignity and consistency.  

[Clarakore]

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol  I like this.

It is both frustrating and amusing. I  realy prefer not to have to respond to BTE'S sarcasm and ridicule, but refuse to refrain when it is brought to my attention   I have no where near the technical understanding to know why this is happening, let alone do anything about it,  but as a person  incapable of taking anything on  faith, i suspect there is indeed a real glitch in the programing, which opens up ignored users under some circumstances.  I respond to the  circumstances, whatever the cause,   with honor, dignity and consistency.  

We have no honor we can only honor others even those you consider worthy of ignoring.

Diginity should also require giving all dignified answers not insulting them over mental capacity when that itself reveals our own heart's capacity.

Consistency can become so dominant that one would not be able to respond to the circumstances.

Can we turn good things into bad ones? Yes.

But to do the reverse is beautiful.

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, I hide behind words said:

We have no honor we can only honor others even those you consider worthy of ignoring.

Diginity should also require giving all dignified answers not insulting them over mental capacity when that itself reveals our own heart's capacity.

Consistency can become so dominant that one would not be able to respond to the circumstances.

Honour is all.

There is dignity in truth. 

Truth is consistent. 

  Seriously i can see your pov in the first two but disagree, i cant see how the last would be true Consistency of behaviour, like honour, allows for many varied responses to different circumstances, in order to create the most optimal outcome. .  

[Clarakore]

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Honour is all.

There is dignity in truth. 

Truth is consistent. 

  Seriously i can see your pov in the first two but disagree, i cant see how the last would be true Consistency of behaviour, like honour, allows for many varied responses to different circumstances, in order to create the most optimal outcome. .  

Most optimal outcome for who, you?

That is a zero sum game my friend.

But of course this is not what you meant even if it is what I seen (sic).

You are choosing to associate with us and therefore should strive to edify and celebrate us. We are worthy.

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Clarakore]

Regarding the current line of discussion, here is a really good article that I recommened reading in full.

Quote

But even if the world’s troubles were miraculously solved and we all led peaceful lives in equity, religion would probably still be around. This is because a god-shaped hole seems to exist in our species’ neuropsychology, thanks to a quirk of our evolution.

Understanding this requires a delve into “dual process theory”. This psychological staple states that we have two very basic forms of thought: System 1 and System 2. System 2 evolved relatively recently. It’s the voice in our head – the narrator who never seems to shut up – that enables us to plan and think logically.

System 1, on the other hand, is intuitive, instinctual and automatic. These capabilities regularly develop in humans, regardless of where they are born. They are survival mechanisms. 

...

Religious experiences for non-believers can also manifest in other, more bizarre ways. Anthropologist Ryan Hornbeck, also at the Thrive Center for Human Development, found evidence that the World of Warcraft is assuming spiritual importance for some players in China, for example

<continued>

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141219-will-religion-ever-disappear

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Mr Walker]

27 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

Most optimal outcome for who, you?

That is a zero sum game my friend.

But of course this is not what you meant even if it is what I seen (sic).

You are choosing to associate with us and therefore should strive to edify and celebrate us. We are worthy.

 

 

 

No.  Objective criteria- referenced assessment, based on logical extrapolation of data, will give you  the most optimal result for the most people, in any given scenario or decision.

Just input the data, do the math, and chose the best action.   This might result in my death, but the saving of 20 young children    This is a more optimal outcome than me living and the 20 children dieing. Or, more realistically, i might give up 30 dollars a week to feed  10 starving children somewhere in the world.This is a more optimal outcome than me buying 10 extra cups of coffee a week  

Of course human computing isnt perfect because we will always have incomplete data,  but if you aim for the best outcome, using the best modelling possible,  this is all al human being can do. 

I am not much into edifying or celebration.

Educating and helping in practical things is more my thing. I am not sure anyone needs edification or celebration  

. Only you can judge yourself, but anyone can benefit from knowledge and wisdom. .   

[Mr Walker]

30 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

Regarding the current line of discussion, here is a really good article that I recommened reading in full.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141219-will-religion-ever-disappear

ive been telling people this for years. it is well established scientific understanding about one of the critical elements of human cognition and evolved  psychological drivers.  

In very basic terms

System 1, for example, makes us instinctually primed to see life forces – a phenomenon called hypersensitive agency detection – everywhere we go, regardless of whether they’re there or not. Millennia ago, that tendency probably helped us avoid concealed danger, such as lions crouched in the grass or venomous snakes concealed in the bush. But it also made us vulnerable to inferring the existence of invisible agents – whether they took the form of a benevolent god watching over us, an unappeased ancestor punishing us with a drought or a monster lurking in the shadows.

 System 1 encourages us to see things dualistically, meaning we have trouble thinking of the mind and body as a single unit. This tendency emerges quite early: young children, regardless of their cultural background, are inclined to believe that they have an immortal soul – that their essence or personhood existed somewhere prior to their birth, and will always continue to exist. This disposition easily assimilates into many existing religions, or – with a bit of creativity – lends itself to devising original constructs

 religion promotes group cohesion and cooperation. The threat of an all-powerful God (or gods) watching for anyone who steps out of line likely helped to keep order in ancient societies. “This is the supernatural punishment hypothesis,” Atkinson says. “If everyone believes that the punishment is real, then that can be functional to groups.”

“A Scandinavian psychologist colleague of mine who is an atheist told me that his three-year-old daughter recently walked up to him and said, ‘God is everywhere all of the time.’ He and his wife couldn’t figure out where she’d gotten that idea from,” says Justin Barrett, director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, and author of Born Believers. “For his daughter, god was an elderly woman, so you know she didn’t get it from the Lutheran church.”

For all of these reasons – psychological, neurological, historical, cultural and logistical – experts guess that religion will probably never go away. Religion, whether it’s maintained through fear or love, is highly successful at perpetuating itself. If not, it would no longer be with us.

“Humans need comfort in the face of pain and suffering, and many need to think that there’s something more after this life, that they’re loved by an invisible being,” Zuckerman says. “There will always be people who believe, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they remain the majority.”

Edited May 26, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Clarakore]

45 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No.  Objective criteria- referenced assessment, based on logical extrapolation of data, will give you  the most optimal result for the most people, in any given scenario or decision.

Just input the data, do the math, and chose the best action.

If you want to show us the equation and formula specific to your response here.

Quote

This might result in my death, but the saving of 20 young children    This is a more optimal outcome than me living and the 20 children dieing. Or, more realistically, i might give up 30 dollars a week to feed  10 starving children somewhere in the world.This is a more optimal outcome than me buying 10 extra cups of coffee a week  

Of course human computing isnt perfect because we will always have incomplete data,  but if you aim for the best outcome, using the best modelling possible,  this is all al human being can do. 

Toward the last sentence above: Don't discount what humans practicing their humanity while being humane can do.

Towards all of the above: You can be wonderful and lose a bit of that pride just by being nice to others and being pleasant to them.

No need to lose a life or even $30 AUD.

No need to be a martyr and if you were one you would not be here with us now.

You celebrate others (always telling us about martyrs and grandmother protestors and even yourself you celebrate. Just not us. You don't celebrate us and could. Why?

Quote

I am not much into edifying or celebration.

You speak truth about not being into edification.

ed·i·fi·ca·tion

ˌedəfəˈkāSH(ə)n/

noun

formal

1. the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually.

   "the idea that art's main purpose is to supply moral uplift and edification"

   synonyms:

   education, instruction, tuition, teaching,training, tutelage, guidance; More

Quote

Educating and helping in practical things is more my thing.

You would be a good educator but stronger on theory than practical matters.

If your strength was in practical matters then everyone here would "actually be doing" what you told them.

prac·ti·cal

ˈpraktək(ə)l/

adjective

1. 1.

   of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas.

   "there are two obvious practical applications of the research"

    

    

Quote

I am not sure anyone needs edification or celebration.

I am certain they do.

But it is one of your weaknesses to be able to offer edification and celebration to others. So improve your skillset as you have mastered other skills enough ok.

Then you could apply all of it together and actually edify others through celebration and also celebrate others through edification.

You yourself are worthy of both, being celebrated and edified.

(^_~)

Quote

Only you can judge yourself, but anyone can benefit from knowledge and wisdom.  

You said this too and thus now are bound by it and will benefit from the wisdom and knowledge of others again.

Maybe you have tips for me in how to best solicit wisdom and knowledge and understanding from others?

Maybe we both need tips from others in that and in how to best contain, maintain, be possessed by, and present others love, life and loyalty. Not just in our hometowns but here as well online.

These last two paragraphs is also how religion evolved outside of any supernatural dynamic.

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

If you want to show us the equation and formula specific to your response here.

Toward the last sentence above: Don't discount what humans practicing their humanity while being humane can do.

Towards all of the above: You cam be wonderful and lose a bit of that pride just by being nice to others and being pleasant to them.

No need to lose a life or even a thirty australian dollars.

No need to be a martyr and if you were one you would not be here with us now.

You celebrate others and even yourself. Just not us. You don't celebrate us and could.

You speak truth.

ed·i·fi·ca·tion

ˌedəfəˈkāSH(ə)n/

noun

formal

1. the instruction or improvement of a person morally or intellectually.

   "the idea that art's main purpose is to supply moral uplift and edification"

   synonyms:

   education, instruction, tuition, teaching,training, tutelage, guidance; More

You would be a good educator but stronger on theory than practical matters.

If your strength was in practical matters then everyone here would "actually be doing" what you told them.

prac·ti·cal

ˈpraktək(ə)l/

adjective

1. 1.

   of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas.

   "there are two obvious practical applications of the research"

    

    

I am certain they do and that it is one if your weaknesses to do so. So improve your skillset as you have mastered other skills enough.

Then you could apply all of it together and actually edify others through celebration.

You yourself are worthy of both, being celebrated and edified. 

(^_~)

You said this too and now are bound by it again and will benefit from the wisdom and knowledge of others again.

it is not the role of an educator to force or even lead  (as one would lead a horse)  others but only to educate  them in knowledge and skills so that they  may find their own way.  

 If i was a practical mechanic, this would not mean i made a better teacher of mechanics  although it would help me.    I dont want or expect anyone to do as i tell them and whatever i taught, from theology to motor mechanics i would expect many to have a greater knack for it than me, and surpass my own abilities, eventually.  There are about a hundred ex students whom i taught who have gone on to be teachers for example   I have close contact with about 20 of them and  many are better teachers than i was yet all thank me for imparting a love of learning, and a desire to teach, and giving them  the self esteem and encouragement which kept them going.  

I dont need any validation about my own skills or abilities from unknown peole online ( Not talking about you here)   I have all i need in the real world. .:) 

Ps i learn things every day and gain wisdom from wise people every day There are even a couple of wise posters on UM   But mostly i get information, alternative views, and wisdoms  from reading as i can cover so much more in an hours reading than i can in conversation either online or in real life.The wisdom and knowledge in books is also condensed and prepared for you to look at and consider.  

[Clarakore]

18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

it is not the role of an educator to force or even lead  (as one would lead a horse)  others but only to educate  them in knowledge and skills so that they  may find their own way.  

 If i was a practical mechanic, this would not mean i made a better teacher of mechanics  although it would help me.    I dont want or expect anyone to do as i tell them and whatever i taught, from theology to motor mechanics i would expect many to have a greater knack for it than me, and surpass my own abilities, eventually.  There are about a hundred ex students whom i taught who have gone on to be teachers for example   I have close contact with about 20 of them and  many are better teachers than i was yet all thank me for imparting a love of learning, and a desire to teach, and giving them  the self esteem and encouragement which kept them going.  

I dont need any validation about my own skills or abilities from unknown peole online ( Not talking about you here)   I have all i need in the real world. .:) 

Others here need them Walker. You could and can give them and will soon enough. This is also the real world. We are real people.

Quote

Ps i learn things every day and gain wisdom from wise people every day There are even a couple of wise posters on UM   But mostly i get information, alternative views, and wisdoms  from reading as i can cover so much more in an hours reading than i can in conversation either online or in real life.The wisdom and knowledge in books is also condensed and prepared for you to look at and consider.  

The best book is written on our hearts by You Know Who. 

Here are two parting thoughts not my own but you know from where and read them before:

I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory

&

no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Btw thank you for all the sciency stuff you share plus the interesting characters of history who did great things you tell us about. They are overlooked by so many. Have a good night and starshine in you.

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Stubbly_Dooright]

17 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Humans 35k years ago (and even 100k years ago) had the same cognitive capacity as modern people. This means that among them very likely existed people with genius level intellectual skills. It is a choice we make whether to see what they have left behind through a very modern culturally-conditioned religious / spiritual lens (and thus declare what is seen as an expression of 'religiosity' or 'spirituality') or see what they have left behind through an intellectual / conceptual lens (and thus begin to understand intellectual concepts being expressed). It is an unfortunate bias of religion / spirituality saturated modern culture that the former lens is most commonly used when looking back at premodern people's expressions.

Fortunately, some researchers don't auto-default to the 'religious / spiritual' lens. For example, It’s now thought by some paleo-astronomers that the exquisite Lascaux cave paintings in southwestern France that have been dated to approximately 18,000 BCE are records of the zodiac constellations, fixed stars, and solstice points. All of the constellations, with the exception of Aquarius and segments of Pisces, are represented by corresponding animals. It’s believed that the cave itself served as a gnomon (calendric device), with a ray of the sun penetrating the cave on the summer solstice and lighting up the painting of the Red Bull in the Hall of Bulls (it was the constellation Taurus (the bull) that dominated the summer solstice sky). An analysis of 130 caves in the immediate area has shown a common orientation to the sunrise and sunset at summer and winter solstice and spring and autumn equinox (Jègues-Wolkiewiez 2000). It has also been recently confirmed that geometrical patterns in Lascaux Cave are a form of archaic writing based on astronomical values, similar to other sites ... see:

 http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/01/28/analysis-of-the-astronomical-data-contained-within-the-engraved-stone-uncovered-at-the-shuidonggou-paleolithic-site-northwest-china/  

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/10/study-of-astronomical-text-on-the-dolni-vestonice-venus-figure/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-paleolithic-tally-marks/

Back to Chauvet Cave (the subject of Herzog's video) ... at 33-35k years ago, it also contains geometrical astronomical writing: 

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2014/01/28/analysis-of-the-bear-claw-pattern-at-chauvet-cave/

"The angular values present in the Chauvet Cave drawing thus appears to be “identical” to those present in the Lascaux geometrical drawings. Here the term identical refers to all patterns found in Lascaux and Chauvet being consistent with values astronomers use to predict eclipse events, or astronomical values relating to the moon, or lunar/solar year."

Of course, those that insist on seeing premodern / ancient people as mentally-deficient magical-thinking savage idiots will see this as evidence of 'religion' and 'spirituality' ... which tells us more about them than it does about premodern / ancient people ... but sensible people will recognize that this level of intellectual expression seriously begs the question: if we acknowledge intellectual capacity and drop the religious / spiritual lens ... what is it that provoked ancient people to track celestial mechanics so carefully and consistently for thousands of years (keeping in mind that hunter-gatherers 35k years ago weren't using it to know when to plant or harvest). It begs the question: what rational reason would they have had 35k years ago to track celestial mechanics and to still be tracking them 18k years ago ... and still be tracking them 10k years ago ... and still be tracking them 1k years ago? It must have been something pretty darned important ...

 

I have always felt that varying past ancient cultures, had an extreme inventive and vast intelligence. I think about what they have discovered in the ruins of Pompeii, (from what I have read and such) to the ancient Native Americans. I do believe they were able to have a healthy society with what they can do with what they had in the land. I think it was what they wanted to keep around that is nature. Kind of like sustainable living today. I really like to think that they had that in most of these cultures. I do believe it's more than religious ideals in these cultures. Though, I do feel spirituality played a big part in most of them. 

I sometimes wonder if spirituality and sustainable, and science, worked hand in hand. 

15 hours ago, back to earth said:

It lives and then dies, like a human.  During life it can make more of its kind, like a human.  A death, it decomposes and its constituent parts dissolve and make more new plants, the plant as it was does not shoot up again (if it does after winter, it was not dead in the first place ) .  Ancient peoples were not stupid.

What is stupid is the modern suppositions of how we thought the thought .  

Which always burns my butt!!  

How so many people, and years go by, having to fool others because they don't like it. I think about the Titanic, and despite numerous survivor accounts at the time of the sinking, seemed to be insistent or something close to that, that the ship didn't break apart at the time of the sinking.  It had to take the ship being found to prove what some saw to be true.  

The truth always has a way to come to the surface. So, I really wish everyone, historians, all of them in the past, thought of that originally. 

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

Well the link does have the actual book! Which kudos to you! Not the link to advertise it for you to buy it. All of it in it's  ebook form glory! Now, if some on these boards took your lead in providing links, we all would get along. There's a lot there, and I glanced through it a bit. You do realize, I have always respected your posts, and that I believe them. (Though, I am wondering if your link can be downloaded into one of my ereaders. Or atleast, uploaded into one. *shrugs* Sidemoved?

Thats why I reccommed just reading Ch 1 to get the  specific point I am making . Of course you wanna read all of it - go for it ! 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.   OK, thanks.  

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

I have felt that the origins have always been in more than one area and time on this world. I wonder, does the basics match each other?  

 

deffinately ....   its a generalisation based on the formation of a new 'western world paradigm' , its general, looking at certain trends. The rest of the book outlines specifics of time and place ( eg,  certain discoveries about  blood and circulation,  due in part to development of microscope - due in part to advances in  grinding and lense technology etc . 

of course  some peeps today still live hunter gatherer lifestyles, while others spend all day on the internet    

Exactly!  

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

I always wonder at what the possibility of thoughts coming from a culture that is being studied. I think half the adventure is coming to an educated assumption from what clues left behind. I wonder at how historical fiction authors would come by their plots and such, because of what they have researched and then have the 'inventiveness to assume' that 'maybe' certain events occurred.  Of course, considering it's from a 'historical fiction' novel, you can't blast it for being wrong. When it's a fiction in the end, that is.  

Yes, I find that very interesting , eg .  Christian Jaques  ( sic ? )  historical  fiction novels re ancient Egypt, based on his archaeology work .....   fun to fill in the gaps ... I loved those books . but they are , in essence fiction  BASED ON some things we know. And some wild imagination to make a good read  

A tactic someone else here uses    

  Yup, I know. 

What I love about them as well, is how they get me to up and research actual historic references and sources to find out more of a historical person used as a character in such a story. Reading Phillipa Gregory's "The Other Boleyn Girl", I then researched Mary Boleyn. Knew about Anne Boleyn and her brother Thomas for sometime, but have heard very little of the sister. Other than that she was a previous Henry the viii mistress and she survived getting her head chopped off when her sister and brother did. (And that I will always imagine Black Widow as her face, and her husbands from the movie ended up as Star Trek villians.  )................................... ((and also Marvel characters too.  )) 

Sorry, got derailed there.  

..................................  Well, anyways, each historical fiction is to me, the starting point for me to go further and get excited in learning more history elsewhere. I'm now obsessed with Diana Gabaldon's "Outlander" series at the moment, and actually finding out that the Scottish "Battle of Culloden" actually did exist!!!!  ((Yeah, I'm gone.  ))

But, history in itself should be a precedent over other sources, I feel, and I like it that I have the key to get there.  

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

I worked with one wonder past co-worker, who also has a degree and has done jobs in Archeology. We had a discussion at one point, that possibly that Katherine of Aragon was probably a negative antigen blood type, and that's why she lost so many children in childbirth and pregnancy. I remember feeling my synapses go berserk and feel how that seems to clinch with me.  It's a wonder how one could probably come to conclusions based on what clues are left, and another can't because of the same thing. 

Note bolded  

Here is the researchers' danger signal ;  "  Ooooooooo ..  I like     that  possibility !   Let's see if we can find evidence for it ! "

I know, I know, some think they can find it. Here's the kicker, what does one do when they can't find it? For me, when it's a possibility, it's still not a definite until there is proof. I think it's still cool to have an eye opening thought of something one didn't consider before. But, it will probably stay that way, considering records were not easily made and kept then, as they are today. Sadly, a lot of mysteries stay that way, if we consider it seriously. Like the the two princes in the tower.  

But, a kick to the synapses is always happy, I always feel.    

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

*shrugs*

I think I understand. (Emphasis on 'think'. I know, I could be wholly wrong on this.) But, with today's world of more secular political and civil attitudes, ideals, and laws, we have a more split of what is considered the truth of laws in life to live by, and what is part of a person's subjective and personal part of their life that partner's with it. And even then, it's mostly assumed, that these people still put the secular laws of the land as more important, than also consider their personal and subjective spirituality afterwards. ( like me!?  ) 

yep, that one way to look at it .   We can give  religion and religious beliefs one   type of reality   (its not concrete and physical, but is real dues to its effects it has on some people) and we 'know' hard physical reality is something different. 

The other way of looking at it is no separation between the two each are as valid and real as each other and in the same 'class'  ... just like walker argues for the reality for his God being a real physical being ...  (which is so weird in him not getting this !   ) . 

Well, I feel that way, but I feel one is superior over the other. And that the other should not be pushed, when the first is the most believable. 

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

In the past, I feel a lot of cultures were merged on that and not as 'forked'.  

  yes,  our culture got pretty   'forked' by it        

I think you knew what I meant, but I was thinking the other and pretty much was thinking what you actually posted.      

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

Quote

I pretty have felt that the cave paintings were their history books and wanted to tell their story in more ways than one. (the scare part, makes me intrigued. )

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 Boooo   !    

 

 

 

I don't know if I'm scared.  

.............................  a little turned on maybe!      

 

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

15 hours ago, back to earth said:

Here is another way to explain it .   before we invented 'psychology'  it was not a separate branch of medicine . 

OF COURSE  people still had psychology , and manipulated it with drugs, ritual , dancing whatever , but it, for a time, was a part of medicine and not distinguished from it.  And before that 'medicine ' and medical practice was not distinct from ritual and offerings. 

Now we go  (  or  say . to the  'primitive'  peoples ) ..... oh no ... that is a real physical thing  ... and THAT  (other thing ) is a psychological response from you to the outer  environment ."

 And they ;  "  What outer environment ?   I am part of the environment !  " 

I wonder, if the 'wise men' ( or women  ) were the 'head shrinks' of the time, and were the ones to go to ask for advice, ( and probably 'vent' too?   I have found, that even though the terms have changed, it was something that was occurring then than it did today. 

8 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Mr. Walker: I was explaining how someone without a knowledge of  fractal patterns , inertia, momentum,  gravity, wave movement. etc. would be thinking (as children today think) 

No Solid Ground: And there ya go again ... saying ancient people had the mental capacity and conceptual ability of children.

Mr. Walker: No I did not say that. i actually said the opposite, but your cognitive bias is not allowing you to comprehend. 

---

Wow 

I know right!?  

It's ok. Take a deep breath. It's ok.  

Luckily, we have the wisdom of BTE, LG, Sheri, Frank, 8bits, Davros, and others here who have the great way of employing great stuff here, like I think you do.  (Where's Psyche? I miss him.  )

Thanks for being here.  

And also be assured, when it's posters like me, when I say crazy ****, I will admit it.  

I think you are an asset here.  

   

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

Regarding the current line of discussion, here is a really good article that I recommened reading in full.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141219-will-religion-ever-disappear

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here, I hide. Unless, the origins are better easily explained, because of the human need for something to better deal with the harshness of society. I believe, that has always been evident. But, are you trying to prove that religion is provable, because of the desire of guidance and help? 

And duality, seems to me, to be played out in varying ways. I have read about the Native Americans, (more so in the past) believe in two souls. ( I seem to be slow in understanding how they see that. ) But, I don't think it can be fully reasoned to be actual proof, but explained away in psychological means. 

 

[Clarakore]

1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here, I hide. Unless, the origins are better easily explained, because of the human need for something to better deal with the harshness of society. I believe, that has always been evident. But, are you trying to prove that religion is provable, because of the desire of guidance and help? 

And duality, seems to me, to be played out in varying ways. I have read about the Native Americans, (more so in the past) believe in two souls. ( I seem to be slow in understanding how they see that. ) But, I don't think it can be fully reasoned to be actual proof, but explained away in psychological means. 

 

The article provided various reasons why religion perpetuates itself and will keep on, be it because of "fear or love", "served a cooperative function", "psychological, neurological, historical, cultural and logistical" reasons.

You stated the harshness of the world and the article also mentioned a religious void being filled by spiritualizing a video game.

So there is a spectrum full of reasons for religion's developments, developments as plural, as they are still ongoing, and religion did not develop and now will decline and die. It is ongoing.

Not only do all the reasons mentioned in the article seem relatable to me but also can be extroploative as other reasons for why perhaps religion developed. To add onto the reasons we already do know about that is.

 

And there is nothing to prove or disprove.

 

Two spirits

Here is a song (art) of a "rainbowarrior of two spirits" that some others might enjoy at another time.

 

Twin spirit refers to gender and not two souls. As can be seen in the video one of the singers is actually in the role of a twin spirit (female appearing as male in this case).

And you are most likely right regarding the "wise men", as you termed it, did play the roles of physician, counselor, etc....equally likely is women also had these roles.

Unrelated trivia is the "wisemen" at the nativity scene were Zorastrian magis.

 

Sustainability

Also sustainability does have a spiritual component to it. The land is becoming sacred once again. But the ancients perhaps did this organically while we are having to be reminded of how to do it, and science is a wonderful reminder.

Any new successful technology will first be used for its benefits and only much later will we work around the negative impact. Which is what I meant by science being a reminder but more of an illustrator of not only benefits but th3 negative impacts.

As Walker noted the modern hunters are responsinble for some extinctions. Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond has a wonderful discourse about this.

Then we have examples of ancients who were not so connected to the land. Romans contributed to deforestation. Their silver smelting lead to lead and then lead pipes.

The word plumbing comes from the Latin plumbum which means lead. Well lead pipes led to drinking led-laced water.

Mental illness and crime rates rose.

But to wind this post up (actually three posts in one).  Modern industralization is recent and has exacerbated the need for sustainability and for a new spirituality coupled with science to bring it about.

Anyways thanks for bringing up ancient roles of the wise men and also about sustainability. It is nice to wonder about these things!

Edited May 26, 2017 by I hide behind words

[Dhurfjooydig]

3 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Thanks for being here.  

 think you are an asset here.  

Thanks

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

Others here need them Walker. You could and can give them and will soon enough. This is also the real world. We are real people.

The best book is written on our hearts by You Know Who. 

Here are two parting thoughts not my own but you know from where and read them before:

I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory

&

no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

Btw thank you for all the sciency stuff you share plus the interesting characters of history who did great things you tell us about. They are overlooked by so many. Have a good night and starshine in you.

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts . Forgive my pomposity.  Sometimes praise is harder to accept than criticism. 

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

The article provided various reasons why religion perpetuates itself and will keep on, be it because of "fear or love", "served a cooperative function", "psychological, neurological, historical, cultural and logistical" reasons.

You stated the harshness of the world and the article also mentioned a religious void being filled by spiritualizing a video game.

So there is a spectrum full of reasons for religion's developments, developments as plural, as they are still ongoing, and religion did not develop and now will decline and die. It is ongoing.

Not only do all the reasons mentioned in the article seem relatable to me but also can be extroploative as other reasons for why perhaps religion developed. To add onto the reasons we already do know about that is.

 

And there is nothing to prove or disprove.

 

Two spirits

Here is a song (art) of a "rainbowarrior of two spirits" that some others might enjoy at another time.

 

Twin spirit refers to gender and not two souls. As can be seen in the video one of the singers is actually in the role of a twin spirit (female appearing as male in this case).

And you are most likely right regarding the "wise men", as you termed it, did play the roles of physician, counselor, etc....equally likely is women also had these roles.

Unrelated trivia is the "wisemen" at the nativity scene were Zorastrian magis.

 

Sustainability

Also sustainability does have a spiritual component to it. The land is becoming sacred once again. But the ancients perhaps did this organically while we are having to be reminded of how to do it, and science is a wonderful reminder.

Any new successful technology will first be used for its benefits and only much later will we work around the negative impact. Which is what I meant by science being a reminder but more of an illustrator of not only benefits but th3 negative impacts.

As Walker noted the modern hunters are responsinble for some extinctions. Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond has a wonderful discourse about this.

Then we have examples of ancients who were not so connected to the land. Romans contributed to deforestation. Their silver smelting lead to lead and then lead pipes.

The word plumbing comes from the Latin plumbum which means lead. Well lead pipes led to drinking led-laced water.

Mental illness and crime rates rose.

But to wind this post up (actually three posts in one).  Modern industralization is recent and has exacerbated the need for sustainability and for a new spirituality coupled with science to bring it about.

Anyways thanks for bringing up ancient roles of the wise men and also about sustainability. It is nice to wonder about these things!

Guns germs and steel is a fascinating and informative book. It was given to me as part of a teaching award for geography, and then lost in the bushfire The colleague who nominated me for the award kindly organised for the geography teachers association to replace not only the certification  but the book  It remains the ONLY book of many thousands which  were burned, which was directly replaced.  

 I think I get into a lot of arguments here, because others simply haven't read many of the books articles journals etc covering the topics discussed,  and think I make the points of view and opinions up myself, because they are not aware of their academic background or foundation.  You are clearly well read and have thought about these issues and thus, while i might not agree with every point you make, i can understand where you are coming from and can argue civilly with those opinions. And I agree with most of your  interpretations