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Anomalocaris

The Origins of Religion

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Hammerclaw

The Smoky Mountainsgreat-smoky-mountains-national-park--258Scenic-photo-of-the-Great-Smoky-Mountain

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Dhurfjooydig
On 6/18/2017 at 7:33 PM, Mr Walker said:

Those who seek to deny free will usually do so in  an attempt to deny the individual responsibility for behaviour, which is inherent in free will.

Ok, I'll play ...

Those who are attached to the concept of 'free will' usually do so in an attempt to deny interdependency, interrelationship, and cause / effect dynamics that inherently operate beyond their imagined control.

This clinging to 'free will' ... the battle cry of a trained radical-individualist, consumer / capitalist, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, compassionless, self-obsessed, militaristic, animalistic modern society that operates in the interests of the ruling class ... is a symptom of a culturally conditioned collectively-accepted form of schizophrenia. A primary symptom of schizophrenia is the inability to recognize and accept innate relationship (the reality of being 'bound by') ... a pathological alienation from everything that binds us (genetics, circumstances, society, body, the natural world, exoplanetary / biological interface).  

On 6/18/2017 at 7:33 PM, Mr Walker said:

It is an illusion that human beings are bound by anything

No 'man' is an island ... this will (hopefully) at least become clear to you when you lay dying, incapacitated and utterly dependent on others for all your needs (many of which will go unnoticed and unattended, to your detriment and suffering) ... you, like all humans, will become an aged helpless infant bound by and at the effect of circumstances and the attentiveness (or lack of) offered by strangers.  And as you enter the final moments of life, if you're paying attention ... if you're even able to ... you'll notice that your life is utterly bound by ... exists in undeniable relationship with ... both earth's atmosphere and your body's ability / inability to inhale it. 

There are undeniable boundaries ... or perhaps better termed 'innate relationships and unavoidable circumstances' that you are not exempt from and cannot transcend.  Humans are "bound by" innumerable processes and circumstances. For example, as I mentioned early, your cardiac rhythms ... fundamental to life ... are regulated and potentially disrupted (innately "bound") by both solar and lunar fluctuations. You don't exist separate from the patterns and processes of the sun and moon. Less abstractly, your patterns of thought and emotional reactivity are conditioned by heredity, social circumstances, class, race, gender, sexual orientation, and past / immediate experiences.  

I'm not suggesting that we are total slaves of birth, environment, and circumstances. The idea of 'free will' is best understood within a conceptual framework of 'conventional' and 'ultimate'. The idea of 'free will' understood conventionally means that with practiced and cultivated attention / awareness, we can observe many of the ways that we are bound by force of habit ... and we can free ourselves from habitual reactivity to these bound relationships. But ultimately, 'free will' is, at best, a useful fiction ... at worst, a hallucination rooted in denial. A denial of our embeddness in and effectedness by patterns and processes that are larger than us is insanity.  

Shake those 'self' protective patterns of thought loose ... cultivate a receptivity to uncertainty. Acceptance of the innately uncertain reality of our existence is the key to happiness. 

 

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Liquid Gardens
5 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

This clinging to 'free will' ... the battle cry of a trained radical-individualist, consumer / capitalist, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, compassionless, self-obsessed, militaristic, animalistic modern society that operates in the interests of the ruling class ... is a symptom of a culturally conditioned collectively-accepted form of schizophrenia. A primary symptom of schizophrenia is the inability to recognize and accept innate relationship (the reality of being 'bound by') ... a pathological alienation from everything that binds us (genetics, circumstances, society, body, the natural world, exoplanetary / biological interface).  

I'm with you on the idea that free will is likely an illusion, but I think it's more a symptom of our natural cognitive processes than anything culturally conditioned.  I don't know how to think of myself and the 'decisions' 'I' 'make' as ultimately being out of my control and no more 'free' than a bacteria's actions or even the flow of a river.  I suspect we don't have free will but I at least have got an awesome free will simulator running in my brain, and I had always thought that that wasn't purely constructed and instead came as part of the hardware.

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Stubbly_Dooright
5 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Ok, I'll play ...

Those who are attached to the concept of 'free will' usually do so in an attempt to deny interdependency, interrelationship, and cause / effect dynamics that inherently operate beyond their imagined control.

This clinging to 'free will' ... the battle cry of a trained radical-individualist, consumer / capitalist, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, compassionless, self-obsessed, militaristic, animalistic modern society that operates in the interests of the ruling class ... is a symptom of a culturally conditioned collectively-accepted form of schizophrenia. A primary symptom of schizophrenia is the inability to recognize and accept innate relationship (the reality of being 'bound by') ... a pathological alienation from everything that binds us (genetics, circumstances, society, body, the natural world, exoplanetary / biological interface).  

No 'man' is an island ... this will (hopefully) at least become clear to you when you lay dying, incapacitated and utterly dependent on others for all your needs (many of which will go unnoticed and unattended, to your detriment and suffering) ... you, like all humans, will become an aged helpless infant bound by and at the effect of circumstances and the attentiveness (or lack of) offered by strangers.  And as you enter the final moments of life, if you're paying attention ... if you're even able to ... you'll notice that your life is utterly bound by ... exists in undeniable relationship with ... both earth's atmosphere and your body's ability / inability to inhale it. 

There are undeniable boundaries ... or perhaps better termed 'innate relationships and unavoidable circumstances' that you are not exempt from and cannot transcend.  Humans are "bound by" innumerable processes and circumstances. For example, as I mentioned early, your cardiac rhythms ... fundamental to life ... are regulated and potentially disrupted (innately "bound") by both solar and lunar fluctuations. You don't exist separate from the patterns and processes of the sun and moon. Less abstractly, your patterns of thought and emotional reactivity are conditioned by heredity, social circumstances, class, race, gender, sexual orientation, and past / immediate experiences.  

I'm not suggesting that we are total slaves of birth, environment, and circumstances. The idea of 'free will' is best understood within a conceptual framework of 'conventional' and 'ultimate'. The idea of 'free will' understood conventionally means that with practiced and cultivated attention / awareness, we can observe many of the ways that we are bound by force of habit ... and we can free ourselves from habitual reactivity to these bound relationships. But ultimately, 'free will' is, at best, a useful fiction ... at worst, a hallucination rooted in denial. A denial of our embeddness in and effectedness by patterns and processes that are larger than us is insanity.  

Shake those 'self' protective patterns of thought loose ... cultivate a receptivity to uncertainty. Acceptance of the innately uncertain reality of our existence is the key to happiness. 

 

I'm reading your post, and I'm thinking, "What about introverts?" Wouldn't they wish it wasn't true, that no man is an island. But, your points are reality. That even in an introvert's line of thinking, they're just as needed as they need by others. It's all in the way they deal with it. (I feel this way, being an introvert myself. :D ) 

11 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm with you on the idea that free will is likely an illusion, but I think it's more a symptom of our natural cognitive processes than anything culturally conditioned.  I don't know how to think of myself and the 'decisions' 'I' 'make' as ultimately being out of my control and no more 'free' than a bacteria's actions or even the flow of a river.  I suspect we don't have free will but I at least have got an awesome free will simulator running in my brain, and I had always thought that that wasn't purely constructed and instead came as part of the hardware.

If anything, I think I have that too!! :D 

 

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Dhurfjooydig
5 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I had always thought that that wasn't purely constructed and instead came as part of the hardware.

Yes, not purely constructed. Part cultural conditioning, part biological, part genetic inheritance, part environmental.

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Hammerclaw

Some people think entirely too much--but of course they can't help it, having no free will.

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jmccr8
4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Some people think entirely too much--but of course they can't help it, having no free will.

Well if it wasn't all a focus on a fanatical or odder than generally accepted concepts. thinking all the time isn't so bad.:innocent::whistle:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Some people think entirely too much--but of course they can't help it, having no free will.

I'm not going to say free will but rather will. To me in a sense it's a tool that we use to interact with our environment. In part it is driven by goals/wants and ethics(how we want to achieve our goals) and at times there may seem like there is no choice, and to a point it is true and I constantly evaluate benefit/consequence in how I proceed to my given my end. There is always a choice.:)

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
On 2017-6-21 at 5:39 PM, No Solid Ground said:

Ok, I'll play ...

Those who are attached to the concept of 'free will' usually do so in an attempt to deny interdependency, interrelationship, and cause / effect dynamics that inherently operate beyond their imagined control.

This clinging to 'free will' ... the battle cry of a trained radical-individualist, consumer / capitalist, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, compassionless, self-obsessed, militaristic, animalistic modern society that operates in the interests of the ruling class ... is a symptom of a culturally conditioned collectively-accepted form of schizophrenia. A primary symptom of schizophrenia is the inability to recognize and accept innate relationship (the reality of being 'bound by') ... a pathological alienation from everything that binds us (genetics, circumstances, society, body, the natural world, exoplanetary / biological interface).  

No 'man' is an island ... this will (hopefully) at least become clear to you when you lay dying, incapacitated and utterly dependent on others for all your needs (many of which will go unnoticed and unattended, to your detriment and suffering) ... you, like all humans, will become an aged helpless infant bound by and at the effect of circumstances and the attentiveness (or lack of) offered by strangers.  And as you enter the final moments of life, if you're paying attention ... if you're even able to ... you'll notice that your life is utterly bound by ... exists in undeniable relationship with ... both earth's atmosphere and your body's ability / inability to inhale it. 

There are undeniable boundaries ... or perhaps better termed 'innate relationships and unavoidable circumstances' that you are not exempt from and cannot transcend.  Humans are "bound by" innumerable processes and circumstances. For example, as I mentioned early, your cardiac rhythms ... fundamental to life ... are regulated and potentially disrupted (innately "bound") by both solar and lunar fluctuations. You don't exist separate from the patterns and processes of the sun and moon. Less abstractly, your patterns of thought and emotional reactivity are conditioned by heredity, social circumstances, class, race, gender, sexual orientation, and past / immediate experiences.  

I'm not suggesting that we are total slaves of birth, environment, and circumstances. The idea of 'free will' is best understood within a conceptual framework of 'conventional' and 'ultimate'. The idea of 'free will' understood conventionally means that with practiced and cultivated attention / awareness, we can observe many of the ways that we are bound by force of habit ... and we can free ourselves from habitual reactivity to these bound relationships. But ultimately, 'free will' is, at best, a useful fiction ... at worst, a hallucination rooted in denial. A denial of our embeddness in and effectedness by patterns and processes that are larger than us is insanity.  

Shake those 'self' protective patterns of thought loose ... cultivate a receptivity to uncertainty. Acceptance of the innately uncertain reality of our existence is the key to happiness. 

 

lol which one of us has opinions tied to  their opinion based on philosophical imperatives ? NOT me. 

This clinging to 'free will' ... the battle cry of a trained radical-individualist, consumer / capitalist, dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, compassionless, self-obsessed, militaristic, animalistic modern society that operates in the interests of the ruling class ... is a symptom of a culturally conditioned collectively-accepted form of schizophrenia. A primary symptom of schizophrenia is the inability to recognize and accept innate relationship (the reality of being 'bound by') ... a pathological alienation from everything that binds us (genetics, circumstances, society, body, the natural world, exoplanetary / biological interface).   

Really?  are you serious? 

None of the above has anything to do with  free will The existence of free will is guaranteed by the nature of the human mind  but also by the standard of the definitions of ree and will Will is the ability to construct or create an intent.  Free means unimpeded Humans can construct any desire or will they want  There is no physical (biological or other)  force capable of preventing the formation of an intent. PLUS there i s NO physical barrier to any human attempting to act on ANY intent they may form.

So we have free or unimpeded will    Freedom is not impeded by either knowldge or ignorance it is about what is physically possible and with a human mind almost ANY choice is physically possible there being nothing in our brains to stop it  Even the fact that something  is physically impossible cannot prevent a human being dreaming of it  (forming an intent or will) and attempting it.

second paragraph is not just untrue for me but also irrelevant. Free will is only applicable where will is applicable Will cannot alter inevitable or natural things like death (this does not limit the effectiveness of will where it is applicable)  BUT it can alter how we approach them plan for them and feel as they occur  I KNOW how i will feel as i die because i have already chosen that feeling and applied it  and it is no where near the depressing scenario you describe  

  Will is a quality of mind and confined to mind BUT within those confines it is totally free. Not only that but when tie to human intelligence and technology it can work  "miracles',  like making water flow uphill, in opposition to the very basic forms of nature. .  

You are incorrect .While nature can physically affect us, that alone can't imprison or compel our minds.  We can chose how we will respond to those forces. We can surrender to them, fight them,ignore them,  or circumvent them  We control our minds our thoughts our feelings and so we can decide how to behave and act.  It doesn't matter how we are raised or conditioned to behave and it doesnt matter what environment we live within;  as long as our mind is functioning we can make decions of the mind and act upon those decisions    Awareness of and conscious manipulation of the natural forces around us isnt insanity, it is sanity epitomised

 

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jmccr8
On 6/22/2017 at 6:24 PM, Mr Walker said:

So we have free or unimpeded will    Freedom is not impeded by either knowldge or ignorance it is about what is physically possible and with a human mind almost ANY choice is physically possible there being nothing in our brains to stop it

Hmmm, well Okay sure maybe some people that jumped off a building or thought they could put that 69 roadrunner through a concrete wall expecting were different results and failed for obvious reasons, and it isn't because they are smart or sane.:lol:

On 6/22/2017 at 6:24 PM, Mr Walker said:

 Even the fact that something  is physically impossible cannot prevent a human being dreaming of it  (forming an intent or will) and attempting it.

And one should understand the difference, maybe spend a little less time in the dream world and look at the one around themselves and be a part of it. 

When I was busted up and not walking or working I built things in my mind, all the components,materials, manufacturing/fabrication. They were things that could be built with current and even older tech and most were based on existing tech and adapted or incorporated into a different application. In part it was a distraction so I could step away to regain focus and objectivity about how I was going to heal myself so that I could enjoy my work and fun. I did build my 1972 ranchero gt afterwards, it was a rust bucket and I chopped out the floorpan and firewall then installed and modified one from a 79 t-bird because I stripped a 76 lincoln mkIV  and I could swap it easier with that firewall.I dreamed if building that car by the time I started working on it I knew exactly what I was going to do because I had gone through it so many times in my mind. I could give many examples but won't, but in everything I build and see visually in my mind form the time I start til I'm finished, it's part of how I know how something will or won't work.

jmccr8

 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hmmm, well Okay sure maybe some people that jumped off a building or thought they could put that 69 roadrunner through a concrete wall expecting were different results and failed for obvious reasons, and it isn't because they are smart or sane.:lol:

And one should understand the difference, maybe spend a little less time in the dream world and look at the one around themselves and be a part of it. 

When I was busted up and not walking or working I built things in my mind, all the components,materials, manufacturing/fabrication. They were things that could be built with current and even older tech and most were based on existing tech and adapted or incorporated into a different application. In part it was a distraction so I could step away to regain focus and objectivity about how I was going to heal myself so that I could enjoy my work and fun. I did build my 1972 ranchero gt afterwards, it was a rust bucket and I chopped out the floorpan and firewall then installed and modified one from a 79 t-bird because I stripped a 76 lincoln mkIV  and I could swap it easier with that firewall.I dreamed if building that car by the time I started working on it I knew exactly what I was going to do because I had gone through it so many times in my mind. I could give many examples but won't, but in everything I build and see visually in my mind form the time I start til I'm finished, it's part of how I know how something will or won't work.

jmccr8

 

 

Did the same thing, when I was laid up with a herniated disc over a year and a half ago. :yes:  

 

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Will Due

If you're not aware of the Urantia Book, you might find it interesting. It gives very detailed information regarding the origins of religion and much much more.

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-86-early-evolution-religion

 

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Mr Walker
On 2017-6-24 at 3:14 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hmmm, well Okay sure maybe some people that jumped off a building or thought they could put that 69 roadrunner through a concrete wall expecting were different results and failed for obvious reasons, and it isn't because they are smart or sane.:lol:

And one should understand the difference, maybe spend a little less time in the dream world and look at the one around themselves and be a part of it. 

When I was busted up and not walking or working I built things in my mind, all the components,materials, manufacturing/fabrication. They were things that could be built with current and even older tech and most were based on existing tech and adapted or incorporated into a different application. In part it was a distraction so I could step away to regain focus and objectivity about how I was going to heal myself so that I could enjoy my work and fun. I did build my 1972 ranchero gt afterwards, it was a rust bucket and I chopped out the floorpan and firewall then installed and modified one from a 79 t-bird because I stripped a 76 lincoln mkIV  and I could swap it easier with that firewall.I dreamed if building that car by the time I started working on it I knew exactly what I was going to do because I had gone through it so many times in my mind. I could give many examples but won't, but in everything I build and see visually in my mind form the time I start til I'm finished, it's part of how I know how something will or won't work.

jmccr8

 

 

The first is a classic (possible) example of what i mean Even knowing you will die in the attempt cant stop a human being forming an intent to act and then to start  acting on that intent. THAT is pure and unfettered free will

 The difference is that, in the dream word, will is ALL.  You can build anything do anything be anything just through  a disciplined formation of will and intent. In the real world free will allows you to attempt anything but the laws of physics sometimes prevent you from being successful. However in the attempts many things re learned and new technologies are evolved i had to get my little brother to jump off our shed roof at least 4 times before i perfected my bicycle drag brake parachute.   i had to blow up a lot of things and burned a few holes in our verandah before i perfected my home made gunpowder and rocket fuels as a teenager.  My little brother burned a hole in the local cricket pitch just before the grand final, when he tried to launch a two metre rocket from the center of the oval. He had constructed the rocket and made the fuel for it  himself.   Instead of launching, it tipped over and burned a  wide circle in the pitch as it gyrated around on the ground.

BUT without the dreams and imagination humans would not attempt what first seems impossible and so would never progress.  Eventually we were successfully  blowing up all sorts of things, with all sorts of timers, and sending small home made rockets out across  the neighbourhood  Not bad for a couple of young teenagers in the mid 1960s All self taught and learned from books  

I never had your obvious love of cars although I could strip down a motor and rebuild it and did the same for a couple of tractors. I was more interested in   unusual things like building  powered model airplanes, land yachts, canoes   skateboards  (1962-3)  all sorts of weapons,  surfboards, (LATE 60S)   and so on.

 Like you, I get pleasure from the whole deal. from the imagining and designing through to the  building and testing Once i built and used something enough be proficient with it  and perfect it  I usually moved on to something else.

Its funny i cant see even the simplest part of an engine in my head but its all stored there and i could draw you an accurate schematic from somewhere in my mind  It is a bit like the WORDS link together in my mind rather than a picture   but more that the knowledge just IS  there not in pictures and not really in words but just there.  I once built a full scale working windmill with no plans and without being able to see it in my head, yet i knew from looking at plans and diagrams before and the physics behind each part  exactly how it all went together   I am never REALLY sure something will work in practice, no matter what the theory says, until i test it for the first time.

Often it needs refinement or improvement to work a bit better, but usually it at least works  (never had a boat sink, or a model plane crash though faulty design,  or a vehicle refuse to run at all. )  

It is interesting, but i found the same principles and practice used to construct something physical,  can be applied to writing a book or constructing a game module

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back to earth
On 6/24/2017 at 11:25 PM, Will Due said:

If you're not aware of the Urantia Book, you might find it interesting. It gives very detailed information regarding the origins of religion and much much more.

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-86-early-evolution-religion

 

You want to talk about that dont you :) 

 

Okay .  ( I was in one of the first Aussie Urantia readers group ... waaaay back ! ) 

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Will Due
6 hours ago, back to earth said:

You want to talk about that dont you :) 

 

Okay .  ( I was in one of the first Aussie Urantia readers group ... waaaay back ! ) 

Thanks for responding.

I've been studying the Urantia Book for several decades. It came to my attention when I was in my early 20's. I was very interested in all the many unexplained mysteries of life back then, as I suppose most if not all the members of this forum are. I feel compelled to share the existence of the Urantia Book with all of you who may not know of it, because it explains many of the mysteries of our world and a whole lot more.

Things like Atlantis (it never refers to it by name but it's clear what is being talked about), where and what it was, who populated it, why it disappeared and what happened to the race that was "advanced?"

Did the ancients navigate the atmosphere? Yes, by way of now extinct passenger birds (50 foot wing span) that could carry two full grown men 500 miles in a day.

How did man evolve? 

What is the missing history of the World?

Have "aliens" been involved with us (yes) and why don't they show themselves?

The Urantia Book provides answers to these and many more mysterious questions we all have, and many more, few have even thought to ask. 

The Urantia Book itself, in fact, might be the MOST mysterious thing in the world. No mere man wrote it, yet it authoritatively speaks for man and delivers a revelation that invigorates religion and our spiritual destiny in very plain language, outlined as if it were a newspaper article. 

I can't imagine if one is intrigued by the mysteries of the world that you wouldn't want to check the Urantia Book out. It doesn't address all mystery but it does provide more than enough information to allow one to understand it all by the realization of what the book reveals.

I hope you'll give it a peek.

Thanks "back to earth." Perhaps you might add some of your thoughts and experiences related to the book.

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back to earth

I could but does this have import in 'origins of religion ' ? 

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Will Due
7 hours ago, back to earth said:

I could but does this have import in 'origins of religion ' ? 

Yes, most definitely. The Urantia Book makes it very clear what the origin of religion is, why it happened and when. Then it goes on to describe how it evolved and incorporated the parts of contemporary religions that were revealed and finally it informs us about the highest and most important religion of all -- true religion, which is religious living and true spiritual experience, making contact with God within.

 

Here are a few links:

Paper 85 - The Origins of Worship 

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-85-origins-worship

 

Paper 86 - Early Evolution of Religion

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-86-early-evolution-religion

 

Paper 87 - The Ghost Cults

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-87-ghost-cults

 

Paper 88 - Fetishes, Charms, and Magic

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-88-fetishes-charms-and-magic

 

Paper 89 - Sin, Sacrifice and Atonement

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-89-sin-sacrifice-and-atonement

 

Paper 90 - Shamanism- Medicine Men and Priests

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-90-shamanism-medicine-men-and-priests

 

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