The Right of Return

[Black Red Devil]

I mean, others have been forced through sanctions (Iran), military (Iraq, Libya). Here we a have clear case of discimination which NGO's have pointed out to the Govt of Israel and which they're entitled to do and yet nothing has changed. So, please explain?

[Taun]

Thats a very helpful definition (and example) eight-bits.

Placing that in the context of Dr. Qafisheh's theory, we return to the question; "did the Palestinians ever constitute a State or a Nation" ?

Well, they definately didn't have a State. (still don't, by any international standard). But did they have a 'Nation' ?

Well, the criteria you suggested where;

Shared perception of a lengthy history of within-group cooperation.... No.

Ethnicity - not really. They are not ethnically distinct from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptian (?) etcetera.

Religion - no, they share the same religion as all the surrounding nations.

Linguistic - no, they all speak Arabic, in common with the surrounding nations,

Cultural considerations - I don't think so. There is no uniquely 'palestinian' architecture, literature, music, or any other art forms.

Unless anyone can contradict the above, I'd say that Qafisheh's theory fails. The palestinian arabs may have been fleeing from their homes in 1948, but they where fleeing as individuals, and not as part of an identifiable 'nation' ?

After reading this thread and some other sites... I am starting to think that the "Difference" between the Palestinians and other "Arabic" neighbors, may be more an issue of tribes and tribal culltures than any "national identity"...

Even in more established nations in that area of the world, tribes are very important, and to tell the truth very few "outsiders" can tell the difference between any two tribes... The distinction is even less (to an outsider) than the North American

Native sub-tribes that made up larger tribal groups (Algonquins, Souix, etc)...

During my time in Kuwait, Iraq and to a lesser degree in Jordan, I noticed that the local people still thought in terms of "Tribe first"...

Edited October 13, 2015 by Taun

[RoofGardener]

WOW - that is intriguing Taun.

Where you aware of any specific "tribes" within the Palestinian diaspora ? I know that there where a LOT of palestinaisn in Kuwait, as migrant labourers. Did you come across any particular "tribal identity" amongst them ?

[RoofGardener]

I mean, others have been forced through sanctions (Iran), military (Iraq, Libya). Here we a have clear case of discimination which NGO's have pointed out to the Govt of Israel and which they're entitled to do and yet nothing has changed. So, please explain?

Umm... so you accept there are identifiable "external pressures" on Israel in regard this issue ?

[Harte]

So how have they been forced? Military intervention, financial sanctions, how?

Why the past tense?

Has anyone in this thread claimed such an action has occurred?

You seem to not understand the purpose of the thread. I suggest you re-read the OP. It is a question about this assertion I mentioned, not about how Israel has been forced to do anything.

Harte

[Black Red Devil]

Why the past tense?

Has anyone in this thread claimed such an action has occurred?

You seem to not understand the purpose of the thread. I suggest you re-read the OP. It is a question about this assertion I mentioned, not about how Israel has been forced to do anything.

Harte

I suggest you reread your own comment before you "tell" me to do anything.

However this assertion relies on an outside agency forcing a nation to allow such a return.

Nothing in Resolution 194 suggests forcing or imposing but merely suggesting, as in "refugees wishing to return should be allowed" or "compensation should be paid" or "loss of damage to property should be made good". Since 1948 Israel has never been enforced to comply with this Resolution (hence my past tense). Furthermore, the OP purely asked a simple "baiting" question. It didn't refer to any possible consequences of such action. The way the question was expressed he could have asked the same question replacing Palestinians with Polish Jews and asked if they had a right to return to Poland after WWII. Thanks Professor, you're enlightening input was inspirational.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil]

Umm... so you accept there are identifiable "external pressures" on Israel in regard this issue ?

Is that an irrational expectation considering the amount of refugees that were and currently have been affected?

[Harte]

I suggest you reread your own comment before you "tell" me to do anything.

However this assertion relies on an outside agency forcing a nation to allow such a return.

Nothing in Resolution 194 suggests forcing or imposing but merely suggesting, as in "refugees wishing to return should be allowed" or "compensation should be paid" or "loss of damage to property should be made good". Since 1948 Israel has never been enforced to comply with this Resolution (hence my past tense). Furthermore, the OP purely asked a simple "baiting" question. It didn't refer to any possible consequences of such action. The way the question was expressed he could have asked the same question replacing Palestinians with Polish Jews and asked if they had a right to return to Poland after WWII. Thanks Professor, you're enlightening input was inspirational.

Perhaps English is not your native language. Nobody here has made the claim that194 suggests anything.

Pro-Palestinians assert the "right of return," alluding to U.N. Resolution 194.

I suggest you re-read the OP. It is a question about this assertion I mentioned, not about how Israel has been forced to do anything.

Also, I will tell you what to do whenever I deem it necessary. For example, now.

Wait until Israel is forced to agree to the right of return before you bash them for fighting it.

Harte

[Black Red Devil]

Perhaps English is not your native language. Nobody here has made the claim that194 suggests anything.

Also, I will tell you what to do whenever I deem it necessary. For example, now.

Wait until Israel is forced to agree to the right of return before you bash them for fighting it.

Harte

Tunkayu for ze tip master.

(Oh Gawd, I bet this is one of those guys that sees a baby's face in the picture in "The Latest News". )

Edited October 14, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[Harte]

Tunkayu for ze tip master.

(Oh Gawd, I bet this is one of those guys that sees a baby's face in the picture in "The Latest News". )

Actually, I'm a guy that is capable of discerning the meaning of written words.

Harte

[RoofGardener]

Is that an irrational expectation considering the amount of refugees that were and currently have been affected?

Well, I dunno RBD. After all, it was yourself that seemed to deny the existence of such pressures in your previous posts, such as here .

[Black Red Devil]

Well, I dunno RBD. After all, it was yourself that seemed to deny the existence of such pressures in your previous posts, such as here.

Roofy, forcing isn't the same as expecting. Ask the guy with the beating hard, he knows the difference.

[RoofGardener]

Yeeeess..... we seem to be circling around the definition of "forced" (or "forcing").

The point I was trying to get across is that - in my opinion - the government of Israel has been under considerable political pressure, from external sources to grant a 'right of return' to palestinian arabs who fled the newly formed state of Israel back in 1948.

I suppose if I was being pedantic, I could argue that in physics, pressure is force divided by area ... so the presence of pressure implies a force

Nah... I didn't think you go for THAT one

Semantics apart, you presumably agree that there IS pressure on Israel to grant this "right" of return ? If you don't accept this, I can provide you with some links ?

[Black Red Devil]

Yeeeess..... we seem to be circling around the definition of "forced" (or "forcing").

The point I was trying to get across is that - in my opinion - the government of Israel has been under considerable political pressure, from external sources to grant a 'right of return' to palestinian arabs who fled the newly formed state of Israel back in 1948.

I suppose if I was being pedantic, I could argue that in physics, pressure is force divided by area ... so the presence of pressure implies a force

Nah... I didn't think you go for THAT one

Semantics apart, you presumably agree that there IS pressure on Israel to grant this "right" of return ? If you don't accept this, I can provide you with some links ?

It's all about perspectives and angles. If you're looking at it from an Israeli viewpoint you see undeserved pressure because others in the world aren't confronted with the same attention. Israelis seem to forget that their situation is unlike no other and the way Israel was created was unlike no other. The problem will NEVER go away unless they deal with it. I don't believe you can call this forcing. Forcing would occur if the UN sanctioned or threatened military intervention which is what they did in other places in North Africa and the Middle East.

Both need to sit down at the peace table and compromise. Zionist such as those in the Likud Party will never accept a compromise and neither will groups such as Hamas. Both want everything and this is never going to happen. Things will only happen with the PA/PLO and the Israeli Labour Party. Why do you think Obama and many European leaders have dropped their support for Israel in recent years?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[SHaYap]

Everybody is fed up with Bibi ...

[+and-then]

It's all about perspectives and angles. If you're looking at it from an Israeli viewpoint you see undeserved pressure because others in the world aren't confronted with the same attention. Israelis seem to forget that their situation is unlike no other and the way Israel was created was unlike no other. The problem will NEVER go away unless they deal with it. I don't believe you can call this forcing. Forcing would occur if the UN sanctioned or threatened military intervention which is what they did in other places in North Africa and the Middle East.

Both need to sit down at the peace table and compromise. Zionist such as those in the Likud Party will never accept a compromise and neither will groups such as Hamas. Both want everything and this is never going to happen. Things will only happen with the PA/PLO and the Israeli Labour Party. Why do you think Obama and many European leaders have dropped their support for Israel in recent years?

BRD if you realize (rightly imo) that compromise between substantial portions of both sides of this conflict just isn't going to happen, then how do you then expect the other (slightly) more willing remainders of the power structures to cause a cessation of the violence long term? Hamas will do as Hamas wants to do and the right in Israel will then be justified to respond. No, this one will never end in a negotiated settlement. It just cannot happen. When one side continues to keep the hate alive in a systematic, institutionalized manner, how can it? You will point to an equal hatred by the Jews for their Arab brethren but I say show me the school books denigrating the very humanity of Arabs. Show me the training camps for primary school kids to learn combat skill while being taught the glory of death for the ground under their feet. Nah, this one ends with the ultimate bang. Edited October 15, 2015 by and then

[+and-then]

Everybody is fed up with Bibi ...

Good! When Herzog and Livni come to power then the world can be forced to admit they're wrong about the Palestinians or they at least will no longer be able to hide behind the veneer of being "peacemakers". When land is given and the Palestinians reciprocate with more attacks then the truth will be there for everyone to see. Sooner the better imo.

[SHaYap]

Good! When Herzog and Livni come to power then the world can be forced to admit they're wrong about the Palestinians or they at least will no longer be able to hide behind the veneer of being "peacemakers". When land is given and the Palestinians reciprocate with more attacks then the truth will be there for everyone to see. Sooner the better imo.

Why force ?

If it is true that which is wrong, do you need to force the issue with threats of death and destruction or total annihilation ?

~

[+and-then]

Why force ?

If it is true that which is wrong, do you need to force the issue with threats of death and destruction or total annihilation ?

~

As usual, third, I have trouble understanding your meaning. Sorry, I guess I'm dense but I really do struggle with it. My point is that the world does not now admit what the real situation is with the Palestinians even though they cannot fail to look at the whole picture and understand it. Once the Palestinians get what they ostensibly want, '67 (or '48) borders, they will still carry on the resistance either for a right of return that would demographically end Israel as a Jewish state or for reparations that would be catastrophic to even the US economy...something will be demanded because those in power will lose their reason for being and for making $ if this struggle ends. I said I wasn't going to post this but I will share it with you.

http://www.meforum.org/5564/palestinian-stabbings

[SHaYap]

As usual, third, I have trouble understanding your meaning. Sorry, I guess I'm dense but I really do struggle with it. My point is that the world does not now admit what the real situation is with the Palestinians even though they cannot fail to look at the whole picture and understand it. Once the Palestinians get what they ostensibly want, '67 (or '48) borders, they will still carry on the resistance either for a right of return that would demographically end Israel as a Jewish state or for reparations that would be catastrophic to even the US economy...something will be demanded because those in power will lose their reason for being and for making $ if this struggle ends. I said I wasn't going to post this but I will share it with you.

~link snip

From your Link :

'Alexander H. Joffe, a Shillman-Ginsburg fellow at the Middle East Forum, is a historian and archaeologist.'

More pseudo psychological confirmation bias ~ No thanks ...

Fanning the Flames

10.14.158:30 PM ET

The Intifada Will Be Instagrammed: How Social Media Has Already Enflamed the Latest Israel-Palestine Conflict

Thanks to mobile recording technology, Palestinian and Israeli leaders have lost control of the narrative—and of their own extremists.

The news from Israel and Palestine feels tragically familiar: horrifying Palestinian acts of terrorism, followed by horrifying Israeli acts of state violence and reprisal. But if the current violence indeed spirals into a Third Intifada, one thing will be different: this intifada will be Instagrammed.

Or, more precisely, mobile-recorded, Go-Pro’d, Periscoped, taped by surveillance cameras, livestreamed—and Instagrammed, too.

• dailybeast link
  

Can Anyone Prevent a Third Intifada?

A wave of violence is spreading across Israel — and a leadership vacuum on both sides is allowing it to spiral out of control.

• By Gregg Carlstrom
  
• October 14, 2015
  

...

Call it the Third Intifada, a “wave of terror,” or the “Jerusalem Awakening” — perhaps the best way to describe the violence is, simply, “the future.” Netanyahu has ruled the land for six years and seems to have no aspirations beyond indefinitely prolonging the status quo. Abbas is exhausted and isolated, and while he succeeded in raising the Palestinian flag outside the United Nations, that symbolic gesture brings Palestinians no closer to raising it over a capital in East Jerusalem.

The two men can seem like mirror images: unpopular, uninspired leaders who allowed the ailing two-state solution to die a slow death on their watch. A poll conducted last month found that 51 percent of Palestinians no longer believe in it, the highest number ever recorded. It also found, for the first time, that a majority want to dissolve the PA.

“The first intifada gave us the [Palestinian] Authority,” one young man in Jabal al-Mukaber said on Tuesday, dragging on a cigarette and glaring at the hastily erected Israeli checkpoint down the road. “The Third Intifada, maybe we’ll give it back.”

...

• FP link
  

Time to Go big or go home ...

`

[+and-then]

From your Link :

'Alexander H. Joffe, a Shillman-Ginsburg fellow at the Middle East Forum, is a historian and archaeologist.'

More pseudo psychological confirmation bias ~ No thanks ...

• dailybeast link
  

• FP link
  

Time to Go big or go home ...

`

Agreed... time to settle it. Hopefully the world will survive it.

[RoofGardener]

Soooo.... can we excercise our Right of Return to the original topic ? Has there been any precedent in history granting refugees a "right of return" against the wishes of the host nation ?

[Black Red Devil]

You can ignore all previous points made as much as you want BUT unfortunately sir, your attempts have been debunked. You make out as if Israel is being singled out and has been forced by the International Community and that's not true. You want to talk about discrimination, how about the Law of Return? Most discriminating thing I've ever heard of in a supposedly claimed civilised and democratic State, LOLOL.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Black Red Devil

[Harte]

You can ignore all previous points made as much as you want BUT unfortunately sir, your attempts have been debunked as well.

Here is the OP:

The issue of the "Right of Return" of palestinian arabs (and their offspring) to Israel often crops up in discussions about the Middle East.

The idea is that all palestinian arabs that fled the 1948 invasion of Israel should be allowed to return to Israel, allong with all their children. (but only from the male line).

My question is this: Has there been any precedent of such a "right" in all of history, either before - or after - 1948 ?

Please point out to me the portions about Israel being singled out and Israel being forced to do anything at all.

The thread is questioning the philosophy of, and possible precedent for, an element of negotiation proposed by a party to those negotiations.

Do you have anything of value or interest to add to that conversation?

Harte

[Gromdor]

Soooo.... can we excercise our Right of Return to the original topic ? Has there been any precedent in history granting refugees a "right of return" against the wishes of the host nation ?

Mexican illegal immigrants coming to live in Texas/California?