British man in Saudi Arabia faces 350 lashes

[Still Waters]

A British grandfather is facing a punishment of 350 lashes in Saudi Arabia for making home-made wine.

Karl Andree, a 74-year-old originally from south London, was arrested in August last year when police found bottles of wine in his car.

http://www.telegraph...aking-wine.html

[Space Commander Travis]

Now first of all, yes, as I'm sure people will say, you do something that's, illegal in a particular country, you should expect to have to face the penalty, yes, but suppose this was Iran, or China, or anywhere in fact other than a Valued Ally. I expect the media and the Government would be howling about barbarism. Just you watch, though, everyone be very careful to avoid offending the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Note how the Telegraph conservatively describes it as a "conservative kingdom".

[libstaK]

He is 74 years old, 350 lashes will kill him. Barbarians.

[Astra.]

The more I read about these Middle Eastern countries and their insane laws - the more sick and disgusted I feel.

[Duke Wellington]

A British grandfather is facing a punishment of 350 lashes in Saudi Arabia for making home-made wine.

Karl Andree, a 74-year-old originally from south London, was arrested in August last year when police found bottles of wine in his car.

http://www.telegraph...aking-wine.html

If someone knowingly commits a crime in another culture then they deserve punishment for the offence. Saudi Arabia never carries out a large number of lashings in one go because that's just a death penalty. The aim is not to be barbaric but to inflict a level of pain and public humiliation which stops them reoffending. You will find the Telegraph story is distorted and that the lashings will be carried out in sets over a few weeks. His life won't be put in danger. His pride will be though.

Edited October 13, 2015 by RabidMongoose

[Taun]

Now first of all, yes, as I'm sure people will say, you do something that's, illegal in a particular country, you should expect to have to face the penalty, yes, but suppose this was Iran, or China, or anywhere in fact other than a Valued Ally. I expect the media and the Government would be howling about barbarism. Just you watch, though, everyone be very careful to avoid offending the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Note how the Telegraph conservatively describes it as a "conservative kingdom".

While I can understand what you're saying, I have to disagree to an extent... When visiting a country, abide by their laws... If you have a problem with their laws - don't go... I would feel the same regardless of which country it was...

In the course of my military career I was stationed (for various amounts of time) in several "foreign" countries, Italy, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Korea, Guatemala, Kuwait, Jordan, Iraq, even really alien places like Texas and California ( )

and in several of those countries, some fellow soldiers managed to screw up and violate local national laws - many of which were not violations back "in the States"... They did the crime -and I had no problem with them doing the time...

They knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway...

[Leonardo]

As noted by others, he knew it was a crime. He so far has served a year in jail and it's not certain he will get the lashes the sentence was passed with, because those are often commuted in cases of old age or infirmity.

While I agree that Saudi Arabia has a rather barbaric notion of "crime and punishment" according to our standards I also wonder what would make a guy go and live there (and retire there) for 25+ years? You can get warm weather in other, less oppressive, countries so for all the family's complaints about how "barbaric" their father's/grandfather's treatment is, what right do they have to complain?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Leonardo

[Brooksey]

The Foreign Office says visitors should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times. When are they going to start respecting our own UK LAWS when they come over here. I'm sick to the back teeth of muslims. Each and evey single one of them should be rounded up, then kicked out of our country. Lets get our country back. Im afraid the Great in Britain is no longer, im disgusted what could happen to this poor man. Scumbags!!

[Space Commander Travis]

While I can understand what you're saying, I have to disagree to an extent... When visiting a country, abide by their laws... If you have a problem with their laws - don't go... I would feel the same regardless of which country it was...

In the course of my military career I was stationed (for various amounts of time) in several "foreign" countries, Italy, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Korea, Guatemala, Kuwait, Jordan, Iraq, even really alien places like Texas and California ( )

and in several of those countries, some fellow soldiers managed to screw up and violate local national laws - many of which were not violations back "in the States"... They did the crime -and I had no problem with them doing the time...

They knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway...

that's what I said, but you can imagine what the Media and Politicians would be saying if it was Iran, or even Russia, wouldn't you,

[Ashotep]

I think Saudi Arabia's punishments are barbaric and disgusting but why go there if you don't have to. What gets me is when they come here they think they still have the right to punish people in barbaric ways, like kicking the maid down a flight of stairs. So they don't obey our laws when here. They think Islamic laws supersede all others.

The people I feel sorry for are the ones that have to go there to work as servants because of poverty in their own country then get their hands chopped off when they are accused of or have stolen something from their employer.

[Ashotep]

While I can understand what you're saying, I have to disagree to an extent... When visiting a country, abide by their laws... If you have a problem with their laws - don't go... I would feel the same regardless of which country it was...

In the course of my military career I was stationed (for various amounts of time) in several "foreign" countries, Italy, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Korea, Guatemala, Kuwait, Jordan, Iraq, even really alien places like Texas and California ( )

and in several of those countries, some fellow soldiers managed to screw up and violate local national laws - many of which were not violations back "in the States"... They did the crime -and I had no problem with them doing the time...

They knew what they were doing was wrong but they did it anyway...

The problem is some of these law are so plentiful, ridiculous and out there it would be hard to keep up with them all. I'm not for them doing the time, at least not in their court of law, they didn't go there on vacation the military took them there. No one should punish our soldiers except us.

[Rlyeh]

If someone knowingly commits a crime in another culture then they deserve punishment for the offence.

Including the death sentence for apostasy?

[Astra.]

As noted by others, he knew it was a crime.

Yes he would - and it was foolish of him to take the risk that he did.

He so far has served a year in jail and it's not certain he will get the lashes the sentence was passed with, because those are often commuted in cases of old age or infirmity.

Yes he is an old man (or getting on) and he has served the time - he should not have to cop 350 lashes on top of it.

I hope you are right concerning his age - and they will release him - well intact - to his family.

While I agree that Saudi Arabia has a rather barbaric notion of "crime and punishment" according to our standards I also wonder what would make a guy go and live there (and retire there) for 25+ years?

The article said he worked there as an oil executive for 25 years. I'm not sure if he had retired there - unless I misread the article.

I imagine the pay was very good - and he may have flown home when he could (a fly in - fly out) job situation ?

You can get warm weather in other, less oppressive, countries so for all the family's complaints about how "barbaric" their father's/grandfather's treatment is, what right do they have to complain?

If it were your father or grandfather whom you loved or at least cared for - wouldn't you complain out of worry - and deep concern ?

[Duke Wellington]

Including the death sentence for apostasy?

We live on a planet with over 230 other nations each of which is entitled to their own set of laws. If we spend time travelling, working or living overseas then in order to avoid any problems we need to respect the local laws, customs and culture. If someone lacks the maturity to do that then its best they stay at home. And yes that applies to Apostasy and any other law they have which you might disagree with too.

[Rlyeh]

We live on a planet with over 230 other nations each of which is entitled to their own set of laws. If we spend time travelling, working or living overseas then in order to avoid any problems we need to respect the local laws, customs and culture. If someone lacks the maturity to do that then its best they stay at home. And yes that applies to Apostasy and any other law they have which you might disagree with too.

You've just defended the violation of human rights based on a culture's opinion. Honour rape and killings are A-ok by you provided the laws and customs allow them.

[Duke Wellington]

I think Saudi Arabia's punishments are barbaric and disgusting but why go there if you don't have to. What gets me is when they come here they think they still have the right to punish people in barbaric ways, like kicking the maid down a flight of stairs. So they don't obey our laws when here. They think Islamic laws supersede all others.

The people I feel sorry for are the ones that have to go there to work as servants because of poverty in their own country then get their hands chopped off when they are accused of or have stolen something from their employer.

Here in the UK the official statistics say that 95% of the prison population suffer from at least one personality disorder. The brains of these people aren't developed properly in the areas responsible for impulse control or regulation of their thoughts and actions. This is why taking away a persons freedom, or giving them therapy when they're inside, doesn't stop most of them reoffending.

Our ideology says torturing criminals is a violation of their human rights but what we find is that pain (without lasting damage) does stop reoffending. We know it does too as its only been a few decades since we last treated an offender on the Isle of Man to corporal punishment. No matter how messed up and deviant the mind is they all understand pain.

In Islamic countries the reason why they remove the offending body part or do to someone what they did to another is because its their religion that tells them to do that.

Edited October 13, 2015 by RabidMongoose

[Duke Wellington]

You've just defended the violation of human rights based on a culture's opinion. Honour rape and killings are A-ok by you provided the laws and customs allow them.

My advice to you is don't go on holiday to non-Western nations as I can see the mentality inside you that would get you into trouble.

[Hyades]

Saudi Arabia Leadership is Middle-Aged Culturally! So, Education is lacking, and they are surely not opened to foster changes in their Kingdom! they don't want to loose control over people! It will come though, in the meantime, this man will surely die from these lashs, inhuman to say the least!

[Leonardo]

The article said he worked there as an oil executive for 25 years. I'm not sure if he had retired there - unless I misread the article.

I imagine the pay was very good - and he may have flown home when he could (a fly in - fly out) job situation ?

No amount of money could persuade me to live in such an oppressive environment.

If it were your father or grandfather whom you loved or at least cared for - wouldn't you complain out of worry - and deep concern ?

Yes, I'd approach the authority in question and seek their clemency, and I'd approach the proper embassy to request any intervention they could provide - but why complain to the British press?

While such an action might build some pressure outside Saudi Arabia, it would also likely harden the attitudes of those inside that country and so prove counterproductive.

Plus, that they care to complain doesn't make their complaint "right", and that is what I meant by "not having the right to complain". That is different to having the ability to complain, and caring enough to lodge that complaint.

[Dark_Grey]

My advice to you is don't go on holiday to non-Western nations as I can see the mentality inside you that would get you into trouble.

Stop trying to be the the voice of subjective morality. There is a higher moral code than what some countries have written down on paper and rape/murder is not part of it. Advising people to go somewhere else and turn a blind eye is the same as advocating these barbaric rituals because "foreign".

[+OverSword]

Well this is torture and these days thanks to the so called war on terror and the traitors to our values in our own government American's don't have any room to criticize torture.

[Duke Wellington]

Stop trying to be the the voice of subjective morality. There is a higher moral code than what some countries have written down on paper and rape/murder is not part of it. Advising people to go somewhere else and turn a blind eye is the same as advocating these barbaric rituals because "foreign".

The irony with that reply is that there's no higher moral code unless you believe in God and then we find the punishments you're against actually come from religion.

The unique historical experiences, the philosophy, the reasoning, the religion of a state all give input into determining what it's moral code is. Hence morality is subjective. If you don't believe me then ask why you call a guy with a 14 year old girlfriend a sexual predator in one country and in another like Saudi Arabia you can marry her? Or ask yourself how a man can be a freedom fighter in one country but to another he is a murdering terrorist?

Edited October 13, 2015 by RabidMongoose

[Crabby Kitten]

This is so cruel. An old man who survived cancer facing this type of medieval punishment. How sick. What's also disgusting is the West being in that country's friendship circle.

[skookum]

Barbaric treatment when I compare it to the country I was born and raised in.

Standard treatment for a country I was not born and raised in.

I have been offered numerous jobs in the middle east boasting a tax free income. I have turned them down for both family commitments and lifestyle commitments.

This man made both and it is up to his legal defence to fight his corner.

[Ashotep]

Here in the UK the official statistics say that 95% of the prison population suffer from at least one personality disorder. The brains of these people aren't developed properly in the areas responsible for impulse control or regulation of their thoughts and actions. This is why taking away a persons freedom, or giving them therapy when they're inside, doesn't stop most of them reoffending.

Our ideology says torturing criminals is a violation of their human rights but what we find is that pain (without lasting damage) does stop reoffending. We know it does too as its only been a few decades since we last treated an offender on the Isle of Man to corporal punishment. No matter how messed up and deviant the mind is they all understand pain.

In Islamic countries the reason why they remove the offending body part or do to someone what they did to another is because its their religion that tells them to do that.

When it comes to someone that is mentally ill of course prison or treatment doesn't always help but still doesn't give someone the right to inflict pain on them unless they are attacking someone. There are meds to help control many of their impluses.

I don't care what their religion says they are barbaric for chopping off someones hand or handing out all these lashes to a old man. They use their religion as an excuse and to me its not a good one. Anyone that would follow a relgion that blindly probably has mental problems themselves.