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British man in Saudi Arabia faces 350 lashes


Still Waters

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When it comes to someone that is mentally ill of course prison or treatment doesn't always help but still doesn't give someone the right to inflict pain on them unless they are attacking someone. There are meds to help control many of their impluses.

I don't care what their religion says they are barbaric for chopping off someones hand or handing out all these lashes to a old man. They use their religion as an excuse and to me its not a good one. Anyone that would follow a relgion that blindly probably has mental problems themselves.

To us it is barbaric but it isn't an excuse its their way of life. It is normal to them.

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The irony with that reply is that there's no higher moral code unless you believe in God and then we find the punishments you're against actually come from religion.

The unique historical experiences, the philosophy, the reasoning, the religion of a state all give input into determining what it's moral code is. Hence morality is subjective. If you don't believe me then ask why you call a guy with a 14 year old girlfriend a sexual predator in one country and in another like Saudi Arabia you can marry her? Or ask yourself how a man can be a freedom fighter in one country but to another he is a murdering terrorist?

Why would you imply such a thing? Are people without God naturally immoral? This has been discussed to death on this forum and many others. You don't need God to be a moral person - there is a higher moral code that does not require God or religion to practice. For example, the Code of Human Rights. Your cultural morality only applies and takes precedence if you allow it to

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To us it is barbaric but it isn't an excuse its their way of life. It is normal to them.

I know what stance you're trying to force for arguments sake, but you know better. You know that grotesque human rights violations can't be ignored because "it's normal to them!"

If we all adopted that attitude, there would be no UN or any peacekeeping force.

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Hope for Briton facing 350 lashes in Saudi as David Cameron cancels prison contract

Family of the 74-year-old fear the punishment could kill him as it emerges David Cameron is cancelling a lucrative prisons contract with Saudi Arabia

By Christopher Hope, Barney Henderson, and Gregory Walton

4:21PM BST 13 Oct 2015

Senior Conservative MPs lined up to condemn the decision, which they said jeopardised Britain's relations with the Saudi Kingdom. Dan Kawczynski, chairman of the all-party Saudi group, said he was concerned.

A commercial arm of the justice ministry, Just Solutions international, bid for a £5.9million contract in Saudi Arabia earlier this year.

The Prime Minister’s official spokesman said: “This bid to provide additional training to Saudi Arabia has been reviewed, and the Government has decided it won't be proceeding with the bid."

She added that the decision was based on an examination of the "priorities" for the Ministry of Justice and a decision to "focus on some of the domestic priorities we want to do in terms of reforms here".

There will be no financial penalty. She added: "Having looked at it further again, we have established that we can withdraw at this stage, there will be no financial penalty and consequently that decision has been taken."

...

It earlier appeared that the Foreign Office had received assurances that the flogging will not be carried out, according to Sky News.

The BBC's security editor Frank Gardner also reportedly received briefings from Saudi officials assuring him "there was never any question" of Mr Andree being flogged. It was suggested to him that bureaucratic hold-ups were the reason for the delay to Mr Andree's release.

But David Cameron's robust diplomatic intervention threw those claims into doubt.

...

A surge in executions began towards the end of the reign of King Abdullah, who died in January. The numbers have accelerated this year under his successor, King Salman, in what Amnesty has called an unprecedented “macabre spike”.

...

Boardrooms strategies to save and scrooge ~ no god or gods here except for those Corporate Deities ~

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If someone knowingly commits a crime in another culture then they deserve punishment for the offence. Saudi Arabia never carries out a large number of lashings in one go because that's just a death penalty. The aim is not to be barbaric but to inflict a level of pain and public humiliation which stops them reoffending. You will find the Telegraph story is distorted and that the lashings will be carried out in sets over a few weeks. His life won't be put in danger. His pride will be though.

I don't like M.E. culture or laws at all, and so I'm never going to visit that area of the world. The fact is, if you visit a foreign country you better make sure you know the laws or face the consequences. If you find the laws to be unbearable, don't go there.

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I don't like M.E. culture or laws at all, and so I'm never going to visit that area of the world. The fact is, if you visit a foreign country you better make sure you know the laws or face the consequences. If you find the laws to be unbearable, don't go there.

If I move to the USA, start a food store and openly sell alcohol to 18, 19 and 20 year olds how long could I get in prison? If I have a couple of offences in the past, for fighting as an example, would I automatically be given a life sentence under three strikes and you're out? I think 350 lashes is mild compared to life sentences for three offences. Heck, you have people doing life sentences in the USA for doing nothing more than shoplifting. That's disgusting.

I just did to you what you're doing to Saudi Arabia!!!

Edited by RabidMongoose
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If I move to the USA, start a food store and openly sell alcohol to 18, 19 and 20 year olds how long could I get in prison? If I have a couple of offences in the past, for fighting as an example, would I automatically be given a life sentence under three strikes and you're out? I think 350 lashes is mild compared to life sentences for three offences. Heck, you have people doing life sentences in the USA for doing nothing more than shoplifting. That's disgusting.

I just did to you what you're doing to Saudi Arabia!!!

That is bullcrappy. I know of people who have mulitiple assault with a deadly weapon charges and are out of jail in less than two years. They say three stikes and your out, but it isn't enforced.

You would get a fine for selling alcohol to a minor and wouldn't be able to sell any at all for less than a week.

Edited by Michelle
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That is bullcrappy. I know of people who have mulitiple assault with a deadly weapon charges and are out of jail in less than two years. They say three stikes and your out, but it isn't enforced.

You would get a fine for selling alcohol to a minor and wouldn't be able to sell any at all for less than a week.

Over 3200 people in the USA serving life sentences for non-violent offences including shoplifting: https://www.rt.com/usa/life-prison-without-parole-694/

That's worse than lashing offenders.

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Over 3200 people in the USA serving life sentences for non-violent offences including shoplifting: https://www.rt.com/u...out-parole-694/

That's worse than lashing offenders.

Then those people need to find a new lawyer. There are plenty out there who would take their cases pro bono. That is not typical in any way, shape or form. Someone can kill a person and be out in five.

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If I move to the USA, start a food store and openly sell alcohol to 18, 19 and 20 year olds how long could I get in prison? If I have a couple of offences in the past, for fighting as an example, would I automatically be given a life sentence under three strikes and you're out? I think 350 lashes is mild compared to life sentences for three offences. Heck, you have people doing life sentences in the USA for doing nothing more than shoplifting. That's disgusting.

I just did to you what you're doing to Saudi Arabia!!!

Your comparison is pointless since they're two different countries with two vastly different cultures. If you don't want to get 350 lashes in that country, follow the laws. He obviously wasn't born there, so he chose to move to that location of his own free will. I'm not saying the punishment isn't horrible for the crime, but it's what the law is. Either deal with it or move back your home country.

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Then those people need to find a new lawyer. There are plenty out there who would take their cases pro bono. That is not typical in any way, shape or form. Someone can kill a person and be out in five.

The USA has the largest prison population of any country on earth due to its insistence on locking people up for long times over minor offences. Anyway there are things I don't like about many nations. Its not my place to dictate to them their rules, its up to them. And that is the point of my replies. Obey the rules in other countries, even if you don't like them, so you avoid any problems. If you willingly break the law its your own fault.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Then those people need to find a new lawyer. There are plenty out there who would take their cases pro bono. That is not typical in any way, shape or form. Someone can kill a person and be out in five.

I think both systems are disgusting :) also im quite sure if the old man had better connections he wouldnt be in this situation, the same goes for crimes in the US, it depends on who you know apperently.

You get arrested in the US for owning cannabis while in the netherlands you wouldnt be charged.

Still whipping and public humilation is disgusting and no noble and honest society would take such measures , above all if the only crime was the posession of drugs.

Edited by hellwyr
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No amount of money could persuade me to live in such an oppressive environment.

Agree - I have never had any desire to vacation in these countries - let alone work and live there.

From what I gather - the man had no prior convictions in breaking their laws whilst working and living there for 25 years.

Ok - so he screwed up by making some lousy home made wine - and was caught.

He has paid his penance in jail - but of course that isn't enough for these sadistic barbarians to make their point.

They feel the need also to whip and slice the skin off his back before sending him on his way.

Yes, I'd approach the authority in question and seek their clemency, and I'd approach the proper embassy to request any intervention they could provide - but why complain to the British press?

Deperate times - brings desperate measures I suppose.

While such an action might build some pressure outside Saudi Arabia, it would also likely harden the attitudes of those inside that country and so prove counterproductive.

Yes - you are probably right......especially since the man is a Westerner. There is nothing they like more - but to thumb their nose at the West.

Plus, that they care to complain doesn't make their complaint "right", and that is what I meant by "not having the right to complain". That is different to having the ability to complain, and caring enough to lodge that complaint.

I undersatnd what you are saying - but I guess - unless one is walking in the shoes of his family - sometimes calm logic and caution fly's out of the window under due stress.
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This is the country that was just recently appointed to the UN Human Rights Council Consultative Group. Basically this group (of 5 nations from different regions and SA is one of the 5) examines, appoints experts to investigate and makes non binding recommendations to the Human Rights Council after challengers are presented to them.

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Putting them in the spotlight will do the UNHRC no harm ... fact of the matter is this old fella is no stranger to the land and laws ~ he fancied his chances , he failed. Nows he's just a pawn of the big corporate contract board of directors backed by the UK Gov ~ sweeten the money pie and this fella will walk away smelling like a rose in the desert

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Putting them in the spotlight will do the UNHRC no harm ... fact of the matter is this old fella is no stranger to the land and laws ~ he fancied his chances , he failed. Nows he's just a pawn of the big corporate contract board of directors backed by the UK Gov ~ sweeten the money pie and this fella will walk away smelling like a rose in the desert

True, and in fact my point about SA's HR records and the ridiculous decision to allow them to have a say on HR challengers presented to the UN Consultative Forum is mainly aimed at their Laws and conduct towards local nationals who don't receive the same amount of international attention a Westerner would. For example there have been close to 150 beheading's already in 2015, many related to minor offenses such as theft and drugs. How many of these have we heard of?

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True, and in fact my point about SA's HR records and the ridiculous decision to allow them to have a say on HR challengers presented to the UN Consultative Forum is mainly aimed at their Laws and conduct towards local nationals who don't receive the same amount of international attention a Westerner would. For example there have been close to 150 beheading's already in 2015, many related to minor offenses such as theft and drugs. How many of these have we heard of?

What is wrong with having a death penalty? Many countries, including Western ones, execute their worst offenders and I hate to point it out to you when polls are conducted the majority of the public even in your country believe in it. It is not a violation of human rights to terminate scum bag murderers, rapists and the like. Its a good thing. What is wrong with executing drug dealers? And if you've locked someone up for theft once and they keep thieving then why shouldn't the state get rid of them?

I couldn't care less about the sense of entitlement that criminals have. They aren't human, they are trash.

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What is wrong with having a death penalty? Many countries, including Western ones, execute their worst offenders and I hate to point it out to you when polls are conducted the majority of the public even in your country believe in it. It is not a violation of human rights to terminate scum bag murderers, rapists and the like. Its a good thing. What is wrong with executing drug dealers? And if you've locked someone up for theft once and they keep thieving then why shouldn't the state get rid of them?

I couldn't care less about the sense of entitlement that criminals have. They aren't human, they are trash.

So you're OK if a woman get's beheaded and does so in public because she was accused of having an affair by some guy? Or public beheadings on someone that was accused of theft and drug related issues? You're OK with the death penalty in the US although it's been proven may times that people have been executed and were found to be innocent?

You say my country is in favour of the death penalty? Well I can guarantee you that when a couple of guys were recently executed in Indonesia for drug related issues the Australian public did not take it lightly and all Political leaders (starting from the Prime Minister, Foreign Minister et all) negotiated till the last minute to have them exonerated from the execution. Australia abolished the death penalty in 1973 and never have I heard anyone campaign to bring it back. We live in a civilised society and most civilised people believe the death penalty belongs to the dark ages. Also, what makes you believe that a life behind bars in a high security prison is a better option to death? In the US, where the death penalty exists in various States, numerous studies have shown that the costs of putting someone to death is higher than life imprisonment without parole.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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BRD has a point. How can SA sit on the Human Rights Council when it hasn't even ratified the Universal Declaration on Human Rights ? (indeed, it explicitly rejected it as being 'incompatible with Sharia').

It is this sort of thing that caused its predecessor to be abolished. The HRC seems to have a death-wish.

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AHA..... we have a forum member called "Mr United_Nations".

I vote that we blame it all on him ! :devil:

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AHA..... we have a forum member called "Mr United_Nations".

I vote that we blame it all on him ! :devil:

You have my vote too.

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True, and in fact my point about SA's HR records and the ridiculous decision to allow them to have a say on HR challengers presented to the UN Consultative Forum is mainly aimed at their Laws and conduct towards local nationals who don't receive the same amount of international attention a Westerner would. For example there have been close to 150 beheading's already in 2015, many related to minor offenses such as theft and drugs. How many of these have we heard of?

I don't see how SA could sit on any HR council.

"When I visited my son for the first time I didn't recognise him," Nusra al-Ahmed told the newspaper.

"I could clearly see a wound on his forehead. Another wound on his nose. They disfigured it. Even his body, he was too thin.

"For a month he was peeing blood," she added. "He said he felt like a mass of pain, his body was no more."

Mother of Saudi youth facing beheading urges Obama to intervene

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It's just amazing how a lot of people get het up about one old twerp who breaks the law of a country reknowned to be harsh. However it's perfectly OK for law enforcement officers in other countries to kill people on the street for doing very little at all.

In other countries people are stoned or burnt to death by biggots and mobs of people in the name of religion or some other out of date law. No trial no justice no hearing nothing just stomped into the dust.

Some on here need to get a better perspective of the world.IMO

Edited by Flashbangwallop
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