+OverSword Posted October 26, 2015 Author #51 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Will you kindly get your US oil out of the thread about European Union? As if US oil interests aren't a large part of the chaos causing the refugee crisis? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted October 27, 2015 #52 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Actually the US gets most of its oil from the US, what it imports in large part comes from Canada and Latin America very little from the Middle East, even then most of that is from Saudi Arabia so the whole notion the US is waging war for oil is a farce it does not need it. http://www.npr.org/2...ay-be-surprised The Fracking induced bubble is just that. Pentagon driven foreign policy is about securing long term cheap energy supplies from compliant neighbours/states for after the fracking bubble fizzles out in about a decade (look at the real production profiles of typical wells and you will understand what I am talking about). Not everyone is quite as short term in their outlook as yourself. And don't kid yourself, you still import a massive amount of oil from S.America and the Middle East - both areas you have intensively intervened in militarily over the last half century. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted October 27, 2015 #53 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) So all this oil America is getting from the middle east, I take it they are buying the oil. So the follow on question is what are those countries selling the oil doing with the money? Its not the fault of the USA if the middle eastern governments choose not to invest the profits on their society. So what's the point on oil people are trying to make. Edited October 27, 2015 by stevewinn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted October 27, 2015 #54 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Dangerous waters indeed. A little story broke, i made a fleeting reference to it at the time and stood back to watch if it would be seized upon. It seems the story of Portugal's election as passed us by, and with it Democracy. Its yet just another example of tripwires and Alarms going off and the people of europe sleepwalking into a catastrophe: Portugal has entered dangerous political waters. For the first time since the creation of Europe’s monetary union, a member state has taken the explicit step of forbidding eurosceptic parties from taking office on the grounds of national interest. Anibal Cavaco Silva, Portugal’s constitutional president, has refused to appoint a Left-wing coalition government even though it secured an absolute majority in the Portuguese parliament and won a mandate to smash the austerity regime bequeathed by the EU-IMF Troika. He deemed it too risky to let the Left Bloc come close to power, insisting that conservatives should soldier on as a minority in order to satisfy Brussels and appease foreign financial markets. Democracy must take second place to the higher imperative of euro rules and membership. Edited October 27, 2015 by stevewinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
141 Posted October 27, 2015 #55 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) So all this oil America is getting from the middle east, I take it they are buying the oil. So the follow on question is what are those countries selling the oil doing with the money? Its not the fault of the USA if the middle eastern governments choose not to invest the profits on their society. So what's the point on oil people are trying to make. yeah because they invest a whole lot into other Countries ...such as the UK its all about the Cash .... Business as usual http://www.telegraph...il-and-gas.html relationship between Royals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations Edited October 27, 2015 by YA AMAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted October 28, 2015 #56 Share Posted October 28, 2015 do you know human history (over 100000 years or do you mean western history, roman-christian history? I don`t believe you know every written history and I don`t think you know oral history or archaeological history. Also I don't think you can grasp the concept of free will and social science. ) It looks like you think human beings are machines which only react to experience and in your case you probably grew up in a competitive environment and with a lot of mean people so you think it is human nature, that`s not human nature it is psychology and social science, and people can chose as to how they want to live. Nope not natural instinct it is the lifestyle of the current "civilization" Apparently they have been incredibly consistent in choosing how they live. Or has there been an extended period of peace between peoples of different back ground, geography and customs that you can point to? Humanity - human nature - is violent, always has been - will be for as long as we rule ourselves. To think otherwise is to ignore history. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted October 28, 2015 #57 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) yeah because they invest a whole lot into other Countries ...such as the UK its all about the Cash .... Business as usual http://www.telegraph...il-and-gas.html relationship between Royals https://en.wikipedia...ngdom_relations So consumers in the West who are gouged by corporations are responsible for the failure of YOUR governments to treat their citizens fairly? What happy nonsense is this? Edited October 28, 2015 by and then 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEHC Posted October 28, 2015 #58 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) There won't be any flavor of any nation, eventually. All the same race, all the same language, with the eventual same homogenized culture. There will I'm sure, still be problems and power struggles and narcissists that want to wield power over others they deem "inferior", but a lot of that innate stuff will be gone. The future IS coming - that's one thing we can always count on. I welcome the species of Man moving forward, out of the Second Dark Ages of the early to mid 2000s. Nations and borders will still exist, but for reference, not for artificial or nonsense "patriotic" reasons. I don't really buy into the whole ''one-world governement'' thing. Diversity is good and should be embraced, not erased. I think we can preserve our sovereignties, cultures, languages, mythologies AND work together as Unions, or better yet, under the U.N. umbrella to achieve great things. Heck, if we could only make our world leaders abide by international law to begin with. The West and Russia for instance, are bypassing them when it suit their agendas. Edited October 28, 2015 by Sam. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
141 Posted October 28, 2015 #59 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) So consumers in the West who are gouged by corporations are responsible for the failure of YOUR governments to treat their citizens fairly? What happy nonsense is this? Ahhhh , now its gouged by corporations ? And the failure of OUR Government is not so much the issue for me right now . For me the issue is that People complain about the floods of migrants and the anger of the Taxpayers of the West ...at the same time people should realize that something about all our Governments stinks to high heaven . And while the citizens leave their anger out on the migrants all our governments are doing Business with each other and they depend on each other ( Kerching ) we are talking higher politics here . The ME , specially SA has the space and means to take those War Refugees and if need be ( which i doubt ) The west could have chipped in . That did not happen did it ? No , they pushed it to Europe and we can only wonder why . One can only speculate about the engagement with the Saudies but we here know better . Point is , that your Governments dont give a darn about you and your loss of Money as long as their pockets stay fat and Business is rolling along . We're talking about huge investments .... we are all just cattle some in better positions and some in the worst kind of conditions . What angers me is the constant mentioning of SA but as it shows all Your Governments are heavily involved with them . Be angry at your Leaders about this Crisis not the poor refugees that have nothing left but their clothes on their backs . it's not their fault ....it doesnt take a Rocket Scientist to know whats happening here ...if you are Angry demand your Governments to stop doing business with YOUR enemy demand them to push the Middle East to do its Duties ....hhhhh and see what will be ... it is just like one Journalist ones said '' the two faced dealings with Saudi '' ... in one instance you consider them enemy but business wise they become partners ( and good friends to '' some '' ) .... this is Governmental issues and should be addressed with them and not with the migrants who are fighting for their survival ... Edited October 28, 2015 by YA AMAR 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted October 28, 2015 #60 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Apparently they have been incredibly consistent in choosing how they live. Or has there been an extended period of peace between peoples of different back ground, geography and customs that you can point to? Humanity - human nature - is violent, always has been - will be for as long as we rule ourselves. To think otherwise is to ignore history. History is the record of wealthy people sending poor people to die for them to secure or increase the rich persons wealth. It tells you little about real human nature since the cooperation within communities has never made it into the history books. Human nature and mans reluctance to kill has taken us down a path of ever lowering violent crime rates and less and less wars. Your apocalyptic world view is leading you astray again. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finity Posted October 28, 2015 #61 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) They keep trying to force multi-culturalism and it's not working. You cant force people of different cultures to live together when they don't want to. The only possible end result can be conflict, which is already starting to happen. In the extreme we could eventually see countries split in to factions and boarders redrawn. Along with civil wars etc. Some people don't think it would happen, but it can. Europe spent the best part of 1500 years like it. Edited October 28, 2015 by Finity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranormal Panther Posted October 28, 2015 #62 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) I don't really buy into the whole ''one-world governement'' thing. Diversity is good and should be embraced, not erased. I think we can preserve our sovereignties, cultures, languages, mythologies AND work together as Unions, or better yet, under the U.N. umbrella to achieve great things. Heck, if we could only make our world leaders abide by international law to begin with. The West and Russia for instance, are bypassing them when it suit their agendas. I agree with much of this. I also want to see the preservation of *all* countries and cultures around the world. This is authentic, genuine multiculturalism, in my opinion. It's a natural, organic condition that is free of politics. Edited October 28, 2015 by Paranormal Panther 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted October 29, 2015 #63 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Ahhhh , now its gouged by corporations ? And the failure of OUR Government is not so much the issue for me right now . For me the issue is that People complain about the floods of migrants and the anger of the Taxpayers of the West ...at the same time people should realize that something about all our Governments stinks to high heaven . And while the citizens leave their anger out on the migrants all our governments are doing Business with each other and they depend on each other ( Kerching ) we are talking higher politics here . The ME , specially SA has the space and means to take those War Refugees and if need be ( which i doubt ) The west could have chipped in . That did not happen did it ? No , they pushed it to Europe and we can only wonder why . One can only speculate about the engagement with the Saudies but we here know better . Point is , that your Governments dont give a darn about you and your loss of Money as long as their pockets stay fat and Business is rolling along . We're talking about huge investments .... we are all just cattle some in better positions and some in the worst kind of conditions . What angers me is the constant mentioning of SA but as it shows all Your Governments are heavily involved with them . Be angry at your Leaders about this Crisis not the poor refugees that have nothing left but their clothes on their backs . it's not their fault ....it doesnt take a Rocket Scientist to know whats happening here ...if you are Angry demand your Governments to stop doing business with YOUR enemy demand them to push the Middle East to do its Duties ....hhhhh and see what will be ... it is just like one Journalist ones said '' the two faced dealings with Saudi '' ... in one instance you consider them enemy but business wise they become partners ( and good friends to '' some '' ) .... this is Governmental issues and should be addressed with them and not with the migrants who are fighting for their survival ... Okay, I see it better - and I agree. The problem is that you still seem to be saying that we in the West are somehow responsible for the wrongs that your government perpetrate on your people. Helping desperate people is the right thing to do, no question. But when did it become a responsibility rather than an inclination to do good? And, not to beat the old horse even more, but what about the day after? When many of those refugees - some of which are already complaining loudly about not being treated well enough - begin to protest and even become violent toward the host government, culture and citizenry? It's happening in Sweden, France and the UK and it's happening under much more controlled conditions regards immigration rates. Don't those desperate immigrants of today owe a duty to assimilate and learn to be a part of the host culture rather than demand that it change for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted October 29, 2015 #64 Share Posted October 29, 2015 History is the record of wealthy people sending poor people to die for them to secure or increase the rich persons wealth. It tells you little about real human nature since the cooperation within communities has never made it into the history books. Human nature and mans reluctance to kill has taken us down a path of ever lowering violent crime rates and less and less wars. Your apocalyptic world view is leading you astray again. Br Cornelius So, that extended period of peace I asked about? You can make excuses about why people fight as long as you like but it does not erase the fact that they have and will continue to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Necromancer Posted October 29, 2015 #65 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I can see the destabilisation of Europe coming very soon, but I don't think it will become part of Russia...it will just go back to how it was before the Eurozone was created... When Greece was in financial trouble and the only 'outs' to it were to either stay in 'the Zone' or go back to the Drachma, everybody wanted to stay in 'the Zone" and I was bashing my head against the wall. They would have been better off pulling out of the Eurozone and going back to the Drachma....getting in on the 'ground floor' before the crap hit the fan and everybody was forced to do likewise... Silly Greece... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted October 29, 2015 #66 Share Posted October 29, 2015 They keep trying to force multi-culturalism and it's not working. You cant force people of different cultures to live together when they don't want to. The only possible end result can be conflict, which is already starting to happen. In the extreme we could eventually see countries split in to factions and boarders redrawn. Along with civil wars etc. Some people don't think it would happen, but it can. Europe spent the best part of 1500 years like it. My experience of multi-culturalism is that a second and third generation immigrant will have moved into adopting almost all cultural affectations of their new country. Multiculturalism is misleading as it doesn't acknowledge that immigrants become European within a very short time frame. The fact is that most people who grown up in a multicultural environment are happy and have little problem with the diversity. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted October 29, 2015 #67 Share Posted October 29, 2015 So, that extended period of peace I asked about? You can make excuses about why people fight as long as you like but it does not erase the fact that they have and will continue to do. Just ignore the fact that it can be statistically demonstrated that your chance of been killed by violence or war is at an all time low in world history. Wars still happen - but less so and most people want the trend to continue. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted October 29, 2015 #68 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I can see the destabilisation of Europe coming very soon, but I don't think it will become part of Russia...it will just go back to how it was before the Eurozone was created... When Greece was in financial trouble and the only 'outs' to it were to either stay in 'the Zone' or go back to the Drachma, everybody wanted to stay in 'the Zone" and I was bashing my head against the wall. They would have been better off pulling out of the Eurozone and going back to the Drachma....getting in on the 'ground floor' before the crap hit the fan and everybody was forced to do likewise... Silly Greece... That is your belief, but lets be clear, the Greeks wanted to stay in the Eurozone because they didn't want to go back to their pre-Euro history of periodic currency collapses - massive economic crisis and decent into Junta style dictatorship. The Greeks had a very good idea of what they had gained from joining the Eurozone and were very unwilling to return to their oppressive and troubled past. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
141 Posted October 29, 2015 #69 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Okay, I see it better - and I agree. The problem is that you still seem to be saying that we in the West are somehow responsible for the wrongs that your government perpetrate on your people. Helping desperate people is the right thing to do, no question. But when did it become a responsibility rather than an inclination to do good? And, not to beat the old horse even more, but what about the day after? When many of those refugees - some of which are already complaining loudly about not being treated well enough - begin to protest and even become violent toward the host government, culture and citizenry? It's happening in Sweden, France and the UK and it's happening under much more controlled conditions regards immigration rates. Don't those desperate immigrants of today owe a duty to assimilate and learn to be a part of the host culture rather than demand that it change for them? AT , where did i say that it is the fault of the west that our Governments behave the way they do ? What i am saying though is that the US doesnt have such a good reputation around the world . The US gets involved almost everywhere often leaving a trail of not so good things . i lived there long enough and what the media doesnt show is the countless Americans that get on the streets and demonstrate against their Leaders involvement in other Countries . You want to bring Democracy to those countries yet we see nothing what has changed bedsides people have been wiped out ? innocent at that ... you say when did it become a responsibility ? well since they want to get themselves involved ... me and millions of other people see what has happened while you are across the lake and get your info via news media we get to see things first hand . i have said it before , you cant never make it right, never . Now its the Migrant crisis, best opportunity to teach them ur rules your country ... but yet i see something totally different maybe you aint so good at teaching after all ... when they come to your ground they should abide by that countries law, i fully and wholeheartedly agree 100% ..why isnt THiS HAPPENiNG ?????? that doesnt mean to take out those peoples identites or culture but they should abide . The Law is the Law point blank ...i only heard excuses why it didnt happen . i see very impatient Teachings here . things they dont even get to do in their own country they get to do in other countries ?????????????????????????????????? But i can say the same for my country too people come here dont care for our rules and laws either but we dont cry about it we are TOLERANT ... and we have to ... they come here to a muslim country and act as they would do in their Country .. so why is it okay for them but not okay for us ???? Because you feel that you are superior ??? ( not you generally speaking ) ... About the violence , i dont know ...i can only assume that people are dead tired and hungry and cold ..it is human to complain about such issues . Who wouldnt be in uproar when they are hungry and exhausted , have you ever been ? i know what it means to be hungry really really hungry and i was a child and you dont understand things well as a child ... if you cant walk a mile in their shoes then pls dont make them down for wanting simple necessities ... when i lived in America i had one incident with a homeless man i never forget him ... it was in San Fran and he scared the hell out of me jumping from behind a Bush and i almost hit him . Come to find out he did that as a joke because he hid himself under some leaves of palm trees . Later i laughed at it so much he really did a good job and he earned his few dollars like that . i was so amazed that i sat down with him and asked him how he became homeless . i get emotional as i write because he had family that dont talk with him anymore since he lost his job and his wife and kids he was a ex - Military as that . How could this be ?? i asked people and they said yes in America you are always one paycheck away from being on the street . This Man had family i mean Brothers and Uncles but they let him on the street ? this would never happen in my country in my country no one would have to eat out of trash cans this is a shame and that is America that wants to bring Democracy to other Countries ? i got into a really bad fight with my ex - Husband then because i gave him all the money i had . My x- Husband could not even understand why i sat with a dirty filthy man like that ...i saw so so many homeless people i have seen poverty there ..people who sleep on the streets covered with newspaper and cardboard sleeping behind trash dumpsters like rats ... we have very very poor people here in my country you cant compare it even but we would never let anything like that happen, never . My point in all this is , the west always worries about what other countries are doing and pointing out the wrongs ... check your country first !!!!!!!!! All this screaming about sharia law this and that and how bad the Saudies are ... well , i dont need to post any links or pictures of many western countries to go and bow and kiss the hands of those who impose those laws . Be angry at your leaders be angry that they stab you all in the back ... but dont be angry at those people that had to live this lifestyle under their rulers ... they are like children that never saw anything different in all their lives how you expect them to behave ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted October 29, 2015 #70 Share Posted October 29, 2015 So dont be angry at Saudi Arabia? At the governments yes but people here angry that middle eastern countries dont help thier people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
141 Posted October 29, 2015 #71 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) So dont be angry at Saudi Arabia? At the governments yes but people here angry that middle eastern countries dont help thier people well maybe you need to think a step further then ...yes exactly why they are not helping , when in actuality they can and could have taken all of them ? why is that ? Go to your Leader and ask them that question since they are always welcome guests within the Saudi Families ... Royals , that is ... are people afraid to ask their Government Questions ? Edited October 29, 2015 by YA AMAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted October 29, 2015 #72 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Okay, I see it better - and I agree. The problem is that you still seem to be saying that we in the West are somehow responsible for the wrongs that your government perpetrate on your people. Helping desperate people is the right thing to do, no question. But when did it become a responsibility rather than an inclination to do good? And, not to beat the old horse even more, but what about the day after? When many of those refugees - some of which are already complaining loudly about not being treated well enough - begin to protest and even become violent toward the host government, culture and citizenry? It's happening in Sweden, France and the UK and it's happening under much more controlled conditions regards immigration rates. Don't those desperate immigrants of today owe a duty to assimilate and learn to be a part of the host culture rather than demand that it change for them? How dare they protest it is a blessing to sleep outside in the freezing cold without food. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
141 Posted October 29, 2015 #73 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Maybe one day soon some of you will wake up and notice that it was your own leaders who wanted to end Europe ... what once were will be no more and you will soon realize you never had any say so in any of the decisions your leaders and Governments made. You cant see it now ? happening in front of your very own eyes ? They will achieve their Goals without its people you are just left to deal with the mess they have caused ... welcome to the real world ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted November 1, 2015 #74 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Looks like Morocco isn't doing any better for the Syrian refugees then Europe is. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/why-syrian-refugees-are-left-begging-on-the-other-side-of-the-arab-world/article17446532/ Maybe one day soon some of you will wake up and notice that it was your own leaders who wanted to end Europe ... what once were will be no more and you will soon realize you never had any say so in any of the decisions your leaders and Governments made. You cant see it now ? happening in front of your very own eyes ? They will achieve their Goals without its people you are just left to deal with the mess they have caused ... welcome to the real world ! I think you are right that too many idiots have been put in charge and are ruining Europe with their stupid fantasies of peaceful refugees. These people don't want to assimilate, they just want to take Europe's money. And the "look how progressive I am" leaders have been doing just that. It will be the backlash on these stupid leaders which will break the EU, and separate Europe's nations into separate states once again. Or, at least, will drive a Conservative resurgence which will possibly lead to isolationism and increasing of border controls. Overdoing anything will always lead to negative consequences. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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