Russian passenger plane crash

[Merc14]

I posted the picture of the luggage because, as per the Reuters article, some are speculating that a bomb was placed in the luggage hold.

The heat signature could indicate a bomb, malfunctioning engine exploding, fuel tank explosion, or a structural problem causing a fire on the plane; all could lead to the its disintegration. By itself it does not confirm a bomb explosion. Wherever a bomb was placed, according to an Alford Technologies expert, "Surfaces in the vicinity of any explosion would be expected to be bent, perforated, petaled, spalled, sheared, frayed, charred (especially fibers), melded by impact, and otherwise characteristically damaged." These parts have not been found yet. Concrete tangible evidence of a bomb is still missing.

That the plane lurched before disintegrating, and the rudder broke off the tail, indicate for some a structural failure. In an interview with Russian NTV with Natalya Trukhacheva, widow of the co-pilot, said that her husband complained to her on the phone that the 'state of the aircraft left much to be desired'.

The point of my argument is that as long as there are no proofs, one way or the other, of any of the possible causes of the crash, people should not jump into conclusions. There is an international team of investigators working, including an American team of experts representing the manufacturers of the engines. Conclusions ought to be withheld until their report is out, and so should be the accusations, the blame and the 'whetted knives'. In the meanwhile, the human tragedy of loss of life of all these people and the children is becoming a game field for geopolitics and proxy wars angling to score points , which is contemptible.

PS. The DNR rebels robbing the dead and posing with the loot is worse than contemptible...small, mean people

The state of the aircraft the pilot complained about was an engine that had been replaced.

You are free to choose whatever words you prefer, but this is not a word I use.

I said before that I am not an aviation expert.

I assume that CNN quoted Mary Schiavo as an expert because of the position she held. Her competence, or that she is lawyer, concerns both those who appointed her, and CNN which cited her. Your comments about name dropping and which department handles which investigation should be directed to whoever wrote the article, and CNN which published it, I only quoted it. If you had a look at the link I posted you would have noticed that before going on the 'war path'.

Edited, I saw on your profile that you worked in the field of aviation, yet you chose not to offer any information; counter-argument or discussion other than short tempered accusations and name calling. Bon, add to my failures a failure to carry on a discussion on these terms.

yep, used to fly in the Navy and even attended teh Naval Aviation Safety Officer Course in Monterey CA where we studied Aviation Mishap Investigations which is the reason I haven't offered any opinions of the cause. I don't have access to the crash site, the black boxes, the aircraft parts etc. etc. which means no matter what I think I don't have a clue what happened. Looking at one low res photo and declaring you know what happened, as the ass author did, is the exact wrong thing to do.

[docyabut2]

Investigators analyzing the deadly crash of a Russian jet in Egypt uncovered intelligence about a two-hour timer

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/12/bomb-may-have-been-planted-near-russian-jet-fuel-line-counterterror-source-says/

A separate source, also not authorized to speak on the record, said that based on the facts so far, one of the working theories is that a bomb was planted at or near the fuel line or where it attaches to the engine, with the fuel burning off the explosive. This theory would explain the apparent lack of residue immediately found, the source says.

This is what I was trying to suggest, that the bomb residue blew out of the plane and then there are the missing pieces.

Edited November 12, 2015 by docyabut2

[Border Collie]

I prefer not to call the writer of the article an 'ass', other than not liking the term, frankly I am not an aviation expert and therefore cannot evaluate his competence. However, a point in his favor and that of the possibility of structural damage of the plan, is the statement made by the former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation, Mary Schiavo who, commenting on finding the tail section miles away from the other parts said:" "To me, it says (the tail) exited the plane before the explosive event and before the fire engulfed the plane. ... A bad repair is like a ticking time bomb, because once it's on the plane, it stays with the plane forever,"

Also, investigators have found no signs of explosive impact or blast-related trauma on the bodies of the victims.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/03/africa/russian-plane-crash-egypt-sinai/index.html?eref=edition

Passengers' luggage seems to be intact, does not bear signs of charring or singeing.

I reiterate that a bomb 'possibility' has yet to be proven, and appears to be just as valid as that of structural damage to the plane. The bomb hypothesis mainly rests so far on 'chatter' followed by U.K. and U.S. intelligence services, NOT physical evidence. I tend to suspect the motive behind the drastic reaction of both countries when US intelligence officials view such a tragedy as an opportunity to clip the wings of Putin; "fun to watch" as one official characterized it!

"Some in the U.S. government are also wondering, in undeniably hopeful tones, if a terrorist attack will compel Putin to commit more military forces to Syria and thus draw him deeper into what the Obama administration calls a “quagmire.” Indeed, some privately delighted in the news that Russia was made to pay for its intervention in Syria. (ISIS had vowed to attack Russia after it began its airstrike campaign on behalf of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/09/u-s-spies-root-for-an-isis-russia-war.html

In this case, it would seem to be that it is more about the 'Big Guys' playing geopolitics than genuine concern about safety, making the people who died, and the economic loss of Egypt, collateral damage.

That does not look to me anywhere near the full hold baggage for an A321 with over 200 pax. Anyway only bags in the ULDs immediately surrounding the device are likely to show any sign of it.

[Border Collie]

Investigators analyzing the deadly crash of a Russian jet in Egypt uncovered intelligence about a two-hour timer

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/12/bomb-may-have-been-planted-near-russian-jet-fuel-line-counterterror-source-says/

A separate source, also not authorized to speak on the record, said that based on the facts so far, one of the working theories is that a bomb was planted at or near the fuel line or where it attaches to the engine, with the fuel burning off the explosive. This theory would explain the apparent lack of residue immediately found, the source says.

This is what I was trying to suggest, that the bomb residue blew out of the plane and then there are the missing pieces.

I have serious doubts about this fox news article. It is one thing to speculate about a device concealed in the hold of an aircraft. To speculate, as the anonymous source apparently does, about a device planted next to a fuel line or where it attaches to the engine is rather different.

[docyabut2]

I have serious doubts about this fox news article. It is one thing to speculate about a device concealed in the hold of an aircraft. To speculate, as the anonymous source apparently does, about a device planted next to a fuel line or where it attaches to the engine is rather different.

It does make sense a small bomb could be attached to a fuel line of a air craft.

[Merc14]

snip

Edited November 12, 2015 by Merc14

[Astra.]

I have serious doubts about this fox news article. It is one thing to speculate about a device concealed in the hold of an aircraft. To speculate, as the anonymous source apparently does, about a device planted next to a fuel line or where it attaches to the engine is rather different.

It's anybody's guess so far - as to the cause of what brought this plane down. There are of course a few different theories floating about - but nobody is stating anything as being concrete fact - as there has been no official confirmation at this time.

Until the real truth emerges - I can't see any harm in discussing / or speculating of what 'possibly' may have been the cause.

[Border Collie]

It's anybody's guess so far - as to the cause of what brought this plane down. There are of course a few different theories floating about - but nobody is stating anything as being concrete fact - as there has been no official confirmation at this time.

Until the real truth emerges - I can't see any harm in discussing / or speculating of what 'possibly' may have been the cause.

I wasn't disputing the right of anonymous people to speculate. I was doubting the practicality of the operation. Likewise, my answer to the guy a couple of posts ago who said it could be done, is to say that doing it this way would be difficult and require quite a sophisticated operation. For no benefit, as it would be so much easier to just stick a standard IED in the hold. And when you then phone the press to own up to doing it, the need to conceal the method is surely redundant.

[Astra.]

I wasn't disputing the right of anonymous people to speculate. I was doubting the practicality of the operation. Likewise, my answer to the guy a couple of posts ago who said it could be done, is to say that doing it this way would be difficult and require quite a sophisticated operation. For no benefit, as it would be so much easier to just stick a standard IED in the hold. And when you then phone the press to own up to doing it, the need to conceal the method is surely redundant.

All good...

If an explosive device was responsible - would it have to be a sophisticated one - or could a more simple 'roughly constructed' device be used ?

From what I have read - they seem to think that it may have been an 'in' job - that's if a bomb of some sort were to be the case in this terrible tragedy.

[docyabut2]

The Egyptians are now allowing the US to get involved, I`m confidant they`ll find the solution .

[bmk1245]

Russia confirms bomb downed its plane over Egypt, vows retribution:

The Kremlin said for the first time on Tuesday that a bomb had ripped apart a Russian passenger jet over Egypt last month and promised to hunt down those responsible and intensify its air strikes on Islamist militants in Syria in response.

Until Tuesday, Russia had played down assertions from Western countries that the crash, in which 224 people were killed on Oct. 31, was a terrorist incident, saying it was important to let the official investigation run its course.

But in a late night Kremlin meeting on Monday three days after Islamist gunmen and bombers killed 129 people in Paris, Alexander Bortnikov, the head of Russia's FSB security service, told a meeting chaired by President Vladimir Putin that traces of foreign-made explosive had been found on fragments of the downed plane and on passengers' personal belongings.

[Astra.]

Gosh - so it was a bomb afterall - thanks for the update bmk.

So far there has been nothing on the news about it here (as far as I know)

I think the recent tragedy in Paris has taken up most of the worlds attention.

Such dark days.....

Edited November 17, 2015 by Astra-

[Merc14]

A medieval culture at war with modern society and willing to commit the most horrible crimes to punish the world for some perceived wrong. We have to dig these creatures out by the roots and eradicate them because you can't negotiate with a person whose starting pioint is "i want you, your children and anyone related to you dead."

Edited November 17, 2015 by Merc14

[SHaYap]

THere has been arrests made in Egypt ... airport staff I believe ... the worst thing possible if you ask me ... sorry ~ too sleepy to post links

[toast]

Russia says plane downed by bomb, offering $50 million reward.

A homemade explosive device brought down a Russian passenger plane over Egypt last month, the head of Russia's

FSB security service said Tuesday, telling President Vladimir Putin it's now clear the crash that killed 224 people was a

"terrorist" act and offering a $50 million reward for information leading to the arrest of those responsible.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-russia-plane-crash-20151117-story.html

Thats a brilliant idea!

[Astra.]

Thing is - these slime balls are going in with non sophisticated weapons (bombs) such as homemade jobs - in which of course can get the desired affect they want.

Hell - your usually lucky to get your bathroom personals on board these days - by carrying possibly expolosive aerosol deodorant spray cans.

Also the communiction with these creeps - seem to be using different terminology (cryptic messages) in Apps - such as play station games etc.....which makes it harder to track by FBI etc....because of a third key ? (please explain) - as in privacy etc.....

So basically these creeps are going down the path of using less technology - and staying with the more 'old fashioned way' of communicating with each other.

@ Edit to add - it may have been someone (staff) who worked for the airline - maybe an ISIS sleeper (possibly there for a few years) - or even an ISIS passenger who slipped through undetected ?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Astra-

[Frank Merton]

The more primitive the weapons they are forced to use and the more primitive their communications are, the less effective they can be.

I have to think the Egyptians were seriously compromised if they let a simple bomb on board. Remind me to not fly there.

[Astra.]

The more primitive the weapons they are forced to use and the more primitive their communications are, the less effective they can be.

With all due respect Frank - these guys are cunning and smart - the world is about high tech now - they know full well that they would be traced.

They are going with the days before high tech computer - more cryptic - and easier to destroy as far as their communication is concerned.

I have to think the Egyptians were seriously compromised if they let a simple bomb on board. Remind me to not fly there.

We have no intentions of flying there soon as well - I think this is a wake up call for all airports world wide..(no time for apathy anywhere while these creeps exist on the planet).... Edited November 18, 2015 by Astra-

[aztek]

- I think this is a wake up call for all airports world wide..(no time for apathy anywhere while these creeps exist on the planet)....

no, that call was first made 1988 pan am 103, than we had another call, 9\11, and now we have 95% failure rate for tsa. that makes you feel safe, doesn't it?

[Shadowpup]

The photo of the bomb they claim they used.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/18/us-egypt-crash-islamicstate-photo-idUSKCN0T725Q20151118