Pope heals brain tumor with a kiss?

[+DieChecker]

The full article points out that the effect is on subjective issues, not objective outcomes. It also doesn't had adurable, lasting outcome.

The person is still ill when examined through objective means.

Mental well being plays a role, but at the same time you can't think positively your way out of a tumor.

Skeptic Raptor has a good break down of two articles by Crislip and Gorski. http://www.skeptical...yth-vs-science/

I thought I've read of tumors going into remission due to people having positive attitudes which improves their brain chemistry, which improves their immune system?

Isn't the opposite also true? Those who have negative attitudes often get worse faster and the tumor kills them quicker?

Unless you want to argue that the immune system has nothing to do with healing from a physical wound, or a disease?

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0049477

http://wagerlab.colo...NRN_Placebo.pdf

The non-active stimulus (including praying for someone) directly stimulates the brain (if the expectation of helping is there) and the immune system functions at a higher level. This directly leads to fighting off disease quicker and more effectively. And also leads to wounds healing faster, as white blood cells and other immune system agents go to work on the wound.

Edited January 23, 2016 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

From the time of the great plague we know from the writings of the priests the illness struck equally on the impious and the devout.

Actually it hit harder on the devout, as congegrating in churches helped spread the disease.

Can you link me to that info?

How did they determine who were the impious and the devout?

[promKing]

Plus there is plenty of evidence- based research which proves that both belief/faith, and living a religious based life, add years to longevity, prevent many diseases, reduce depression and keep old people happier and can even reduce rates of cancer and increase remissions and healing from cancer. (all compared to/with, non spiritual /religious people in the same cohorts)

Yeah research by Peter Popoff, Oral Roberts and Sai Baba.

So my advice is; take the best from both elements of life; the material and the spiritual.

Why don't you say that to Steve Jobs and Jim Henson? Oh wait you can't because they died thinking that praying and meditation will heal them along with countless others that got duped by faith healers. Jim Henson needed only one injection of penicillin to heal and would be today with us if he weren't member of Christian Science who only believes in healing with prayer.

Really, people stay away from faith healers. They are the worst kind of people prying on sick people, usually those that medicine can't help giving them fake promises just to take money from them.

I mean let's go back to Catholic Church, since this is about Pope. Church and it' backward views are responsible for millions of deaths every year all over the globe. Pope & Catholics, along with other Christian denominations, lie that condoms spread AIDS and in Sub-Saharan Africa where people are poorly secularly educated it really takes a horrible toll.

Or take human papillomavirus (HPV), the major cause of cervical cancer in women, but also a cause of cancers of the anus, vulva, vagina, and pharynx, as well as genital warts. Spread through sexual contact, the infection can be almost completely prevented with a series of three safe injections, and is recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for boys and girls eleven or twelve years old. Cervical cancer is deadly: it causes about four thousand deaths per year in the United States and almost two hundred thousand worldwide, most of which could be prevented by vaccination of preteens.

In the United States, both religious and right-wing political organizations (their membership shows considerable overlap) often favor the availability of anti-HPV vaccines, but strongly oppose attempts to make immunization mandatory. Because Catholic Church sees HPV as God's blockade against people having too much sex. In Canada the Catholic bishop of Calgary, Fred Henry, publicly opposed endorsement of the vaccine by Catholic school boards in Canada—schools funded by the government—because it would “undermine the schools’ effort to teach children about abstinence and chastity in accord with the teachings of the Catholic Church.” Pressure from the Catholic Church has also halted the administration of anti-HPV vaccines in Trinidad and Tobago, with the church going so far as to question, in the face of all scientific fact, the safety of the vaccine.

Similar case was back when vaccine for Syphilis was discovered. Again Clergy saw Syphilis as god's punishment for women that cheat on their husbands. Syphilis was so stigmatized that doctors had to put out false information that you can get Syphilis by touching stuff that other infected people touched, or by drinking from the same cup or sitting on the same toilet - which is impossible because virus dies when it's in contact with air.

Which ones could go on living in a hope or belief of eventual reunion? Which ones had a counsellor they could turn to for comfort and advice, and to listen to their grief as they internalised it , and offer words of wisdom and comfort?

Lie is a lie there is no reason to believe something false just because "you feel better". That's irresponsible and stupid. That's like me saying "Hey I'm going to make my self believe I'm Clive Oven because he has much more exciting life then me and my life compared to his is just too depressing to live."

It appears based on the numbers reported in US cases, that between 15% and 25% died from the disease. Thus 75%, to 85% lived. If we consider prayer as one of the treatments used on probably almost all of them. That is a pretty good success rate. Or, is it just a correlation? If only a correlation, then perhaps the ones that died are just correlation also?

Yeah really "great" and it proves American God is the right one. Today still every year 9 million children under the age of 5 dies in horrible pain by parents that are mostly religious. So the God that lets so many innocent children die is either incompetent, cruel or just doesn't care.

Edited January 23, 2016 by promKing

[+DieChecker]

Yeah really "great" and it proves American God is the right one. Today still every year 9 million children under the age of 5 dies in horrible pain by parents that are mostly religious. So the God that lets so many innocent children die is either incompetent, cruel or just doesn't care.

Can you show me where 9 million religious children died?

I'd vote for "Doesn't Care", because we have Free Will and live in a fallen world. It is up to us to live up to His standards, not for Him to come down to ours.

[Mr Walker]

Yeah research by Peter Popoff, Oral Roberts and Sai Baba.

Why don't you say that to Steve Jobs and Jim Henson? Oh wait you can't because they died thinking that praying and meditation will heal them along with countless others that got duped by faith healers. Jim Henson needed only one injection of penicillin to heal and would be today with us if he weren't member of Christian Science who only believes in healing with prayer.

Really, people stay away from faith healers. They are the worst kind of people prying on sick people, usually those that medicine can't help giving them fake promises just to take money from them.

I mean let's go back to Catholic Church, since this is about Pope. Church and it' backward views are responsible for millions of deaths every year all over the globe. Pope & Catholics, along with other Christian denominations, lie that condoms spread AIDS and in Sub-Saharan Africa where people are poorly secularly educated it really takes a horrible toll.

Or take human papillomavirus (HPV), the major cause of cervical cancer in women, but also a cause of cancers of the anus, vulva, vagina, and pharynx, as well as genital warts. Spread through sexual contact, the infection can be almost completely prevented with a series of three safe injections, and is recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for boys and girls eleven or twelve years old. Cervical cancer is deadly: it causes about four thousand deaths per year in the United States and almost two hundred thousand worldwide, most of which could be prevented by vaccination of preteens.

In the United States, both religious and right-wing political organizations (their membership shows considerable overlap) often favor the availability of anti-HPV vaccines, but strongly oppose attempts to make immunization mandatory. Because Catholic Church sees HPV as God's blockade against people having too much sex. In Canada the Catholic bishop of Calgary, Fred Henry, publicly opposed endorsement of the vaccine by Catholic school boards in Canada—schools funded by the government—because it would “undermine the schools’ effort to teach children about abstinence and chastity in accord with the teachings of the Catholic Church.” Pressure from the Catholic Church has also halted the administration of anti-HPV vaccines in Trinidad and Tobago, with the church going so far as to question, in the face of all scientific fact, the safety of the vaccine.

Similar case was back when vaccine for Syphilis was discovered. Again Clergy saw Syphilis as god's punishment for women that cheat on their husbands. Syphilis was so stigmatized that doctors had to put out false information that you can get Syphilis by touching stuff that other infected people touched, or by drinking from the same cup or sitting on the same toilet - which is impossible because virus dies when it's in contact with air.

Lie is a lie there is no reason to believe something false just because "you feel better". That's irresponsible and stupid. That's like me saying "Hey I'm going to make my self believe I'm Clive Oven because he has much more exciting life then me and my life compared to his is just too depressing to live."

Yeah really "great" and it proves American God is the right one. Today still every year 9 million children under the age of 5 dies in horrible pain by parents that are mostly religious. So the God that lets so many innocent children die is either incompetent, cruel or just doesn't care.

The problem with a closed mind is that it only sees what it wants to see

First there have been thousands of studies this century into the links between faith/belief religiosity and well being, 86% show a positive correlation with the strongest connections in the most peer reviewed and academic studies.

Second you aent reading what I said but rather imposing your own strong views over it without listening.

Medical science and technology are essential and no one should reject them but THEN add on the power of faith and belief and these can improve chances of survival and also how well a person copes with illness and even death. If you have to die it is better to die in hope and happy than afraid and without hope. Lots of people die even WITH the best medical attention in the world.

If your child has cancer get the best care you can. And THEN pray and seek god's help, courage, guidance and support. Doing so WILL make a positive difference to both you and the child, whether the child recovers, or whether it does not. .

There are idiots everywhere. For example most anti vaxers aren't religious people, just a bit stupid.

Don't waste your time going back in history to create arguments for today.

But your most basic error is this one.

Lie is a lie there is no reason to believe something false just because "you feel better". That's irresponsible and stupid. That's like me saying "Hey I'm going to make my self believe I'm Clive Oven because he has much more exciting life then me and my life compared to his is just too depressing to live."

First you do not know any better than anyone what beliefs are true and which are false when it comes to healing. How can you possibly KNOW that gods do not exist? That is a belief position and cant be anything else, although one could KNOW that a god did exist.

Where the evidences clearly show that belief/ faith and religiosity help in curing healing and relieving pain (and they do) then only a fool would deny themselves those advantages because they didn't want to be seen believing in an old fashioned and unfashionable "god" . So you cannot know that a belief in god is a false belief, but i can KNOW, from the medical science, that belief helps physiologically and psychologically in both well being /health, and in overcoming illness.

Only a fool would fail to take advantage of any help they could get, or allow a constructed disbelief to kill them, when faith might have helped them survive .

Try constructing a different type of god in your mind One who CANNOT stop all the death pain or suffering n the world but who does what it can to help all those suffering. One who does cure people and improve their physical and psychological well being and health. Try constructing the type of god, belief in whom, brings statistically measurable better outcomes

But if you cant bring yourself to construct such a god, you are STILL better off choosing to believe in a loving benevolent and caring god than not believing at all The evidences from all over the world prove this. God doesn't even have to exist. But if you simply believe in such a god you will live longer and be healthier and happier than those who do not and who are otherwise identical to you (statistically speaking)

Tell me. If you were omnipotent and omniscient how would YOU end all pain suffering death created by humans in this world? The answer is you couldn't, not without taking away from humans all that which makes us human.

UNTIL we, individually and collectively, CHOOSE to act in ways which will end those things Until we stop being selfish and putting self before others Until we refuse to use conflict to resolve issues. Until we realise that ever one of us is equal and deserves no more or less than anyone else. Until we overcome our evolved emotional responses like anger hate fear lust etc., and start to use smarter more logical and useful ways of thinking and thus of acting. .

Smoking causes the death of one in 3 of all humans who smoke As god, what would you do? Remove nicotine from the environment ? Put a block on peoples minds to stop them smoking ? Redesign human so no matter what we did we never suffered any consequences? and no matter how hard we tried we could not improve ourselves., or no matter how little we did we would still be perfect. If we can eat what we like and never get fat, or never exercise and still stay perfectly fit, then where is the natural justice/ law of consequence, or indeed the incentive for anyone to make the right choices and to learn from living?

Humans now have the abilty to create a paradise, or heaven, on earth just using our own skills and knowledge. Why aren't we choosing to do so?

Edited January 23, 2016 by Mr Walker

[+DieChecker]

Really, people stay away from faith healers. They are the worst kind of people prying on sick people, usually those that medicine can't help giving them fake promises just to take money from them.

And atheists are all murdering power hungry communists. Way to stereotype people there PromKing.

[ShadowSot]

I thought I've read of tumors going into remission due to people having positive attitudes which improves their brain chemistry, which improves their immune system?

Isn't the opposite also true? Those who have negative attitudes often get worse faster and the tumor kills them quicker?

Unless you want to argue that the immune system has nothing to do with healing from a physical wound, or a disease?

http://journals.plos...al.pone.0049477

http://wagerlab.colo...NRN_Placebo.pdf

The non-active stimulus (including praying for someone) directly stimulates the brain (if the expectation of helping is there) and the immune system functions at a higher level. This directly leads to fighting off disease quicker and more effectively. And also leads to wounds healing faster, as white blood cells and other immune system agents go to work on the wound.

Well first, mental health is tied to physical health. I already said so.

This does not equal to placebo healing tumors.

And due to the large alternative medication following in the US we have many examples of people forgoing standard treatment for mystical therapies that rely only in positive thinking and placebo.

It seems like about once a month or so we have reports of faith healing resulting in the death of the ill person- most often children.

The disease or illness simply runs its course unimpeded.

Now, these are fortunately fairly rare. Most people supplement their medical care instead of replacing it.

And there are some benefits. Gives the patient a sense of control, alt med doctors usually have more time to spend with patients, so on.

On the other hand there can be problems, starting at extra costs and including complications between their medicines and whatever concoction they are being given.

Praying for other people may help if they know they have your support(though as some studies have pointed out this can backfire), praying for yourself can give you a nice feeling as well.

On the otherhand as a patient's condition deteriorates this can warp into feeling abandoned.

This is all fairly well understood through natural processes, and it doesn't matter how religious or not you are.

[ShadowSot]

Can you link me to that info?

How did they determine who were the impious and the devout?

Just look up the writings of the priests, bishops, and so on at the time of the plague. Don't know how much is online.

Of course it is a self defeating scenario you have set up.

If they were faithful enough, they'd have been healed. They weren't faithful enough, so they weren't healed. Unless they were faithful enough, but god just said no.

Nicely circular.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Isn't assuming that the tumour's shrinkage resulted due to the kiss a post hoc fallacy?

[Mr Walker]

Isn't assuming that the tumour's shrinkage resulted due to the kiss a post hoc fallacy?

That would be a matter of belief . No one actually knows for sure.

A devout catholic kissed by the pope could scientifically alter their body chemistry through the release of positive chemicals or other wise alter their body metabolism without anyone measuring that alteration. This might shrink a cancer. Studies in Israel have recently proven that faith and belief not only reduce the risk of getting cancers in an otherwise equal cohort of a population, but will increase remissions and survival rates among cancer sufferers. As yet the biological reason is not understood. It might be similar, but different, to the alteration in biochemistry which reduces strokes and cardio vascular diseases in believers. thus reducing heart attacks and extending life.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Mr Walker

[+DieChecker]

Isn't assuming that the tumour's shrinkage resulted due to the kiss a post hoc fallacy?

IMHO, yes it is, unless someone can prove God scientifically. Otherwise it is based on belief, not evidence.

[jps]

I once slapped a terminally ill guy for hitting on my wife, and he miraculously recovered from the disease!

Am I a divine messenger? Should I slap more people?

Seriously, I always find these cases confusing. How many terminally ill people does the pope kiss that do not recover? 98%? I have trouble not to dismiss this as confirmation bias.

[Mr Walker]

I once slapped a terminally ill guy for hitting on my wife, and he miraculously recovered from the disease!

Am I a divine messenger? Should I slap more people?

Seriously, I always find these cases confusing. How many terminally ill people does the pope kiss that do not recover? 98%? I have trouble not to dismiss this as confirmation bias.

Only ongoing testing, measurement and observation, followed by rigorous statistical analysis, can answer these question so, in the interest of science, yes you probably should..

[+DieChecker]

I once slapped a terminally ill guy for hitting on my wife, and he miraculously recovered from the disease!

Am I a divine messenger? Should I slap more people?

To the religious, that is a real possibility. And I've heard about things similar.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

That would be a matter of belief . No one actually knows for sure.

A devout catholic kissed by the pope could scientifically alter their body chemistry through the release of positive chemicals or other wise alter their body metabolism without anyone measuring that alteration. This might shrink a cancer. Studies in Israel have recently proven that faith and belief not only reduce the risk of getting cancers in an otherwise equal cohort of a population, but will increase remissions and survival rates among cancer sufferers. As yet the biological reason is not understood. It might be similar, but different, to the alteration in biochemistry which reduces strokes and cardio vascular diseases in believers. thus reducing heart attacks and extending life.

Citations needed.

[a vampire wears my boxers]

Who needs doctors and physicians when popes and priests can cure diseases with so little effort- just singing songs and praying all day long.

aaaah so thats what all those priests were doing with children. preventative healing

[Mr Walker]

Citations needed.

No they aren't. I have provided them so many times that they are now a matter of record. I am not going to cite that which should be common knowledge, or has been established as a matter of scientific fact, every time i mention it.

The sea is wet? citation please.

First I' d be silly to say something which could easily be disproved, and second, if you really want to challenge it,you can easily try to do so by checking for yourself. But, because i am a nice guy here are some related facts

Prayer may be supported by varying degrees of faith and may therefore be associated with all the benefits that have been associated with the placebo response

Clinically significant treatment gains have been observed with placebo in numerous disorders, including anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, tardive dyskinesia, ischemic heart disease, cardiac failure, Parkinson's disease and even cancer, among a host of other conditions.[14–20] Relevant to the context of prayer and healing, the placebo response is influenced by personality traits and behaviors such as optimism,[21,22] response expectancy,[23] motivational concordance (i.e., the degree to which the behavioral rituals of the therapy are congruent with the motivational system of the subject)[24] and degree of engagement with a ritual.[25] \

Spontaneous remission and regression to the mean may occur coincidental to prayer. Nonspecific psychosocial support related to prayer may arise in group prayer settings. Improvements in all these contexts are true improvements. In contrast, in randomized controlled studies on the efficacy of prayer as a treatment, rated improvements that are not true improvements may also occur; explanations for such improvement include the Hawthorne effect and the Rosenthal effect. The Hawthorne effect refers to change that occurs as a result of the act of observation or measurement,[27,28] whereas the Rosenthal effect refers to change resulting from observer or rater expectancy.[29] With regard to the former, the comforting environment of the study setting or the conscious or unconscious wish of the patient to please may result in the report of less symptoms than actually exist. With regard to the latter, the tendency of the rater to expect symptom attenuation across time may result in the attachment of lower significance to reported symptoms.

DIVINE INTERVENTION AS A MECHANISM OF HEALING THROUGH PRAYER

Meditation, the placebo response, regression to the mean, the natural course of various illnesses, nonspecific emotional support, the Hawthorne effect and the Rosenthal effect have all been studied. What about divine intervention as a mechanism of recovery of health through prayer? This has also been seriously investigated.

Astin et al.[30] conducted a systematic review of the literature on the efficacy of any form of distant healing as a treatment for any medical condition. A total of 23 trials involving 2,774 patients met the inclusion criteria and were subjected to analysis. Of these studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment effects favoring distant healing, nine showed no superiority of distant healing over control interventions and one showed a negative effect for distant healing. The methodological limitations of many of the studies, however, made it difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the efficacy of distant healing. Of note, Astin et al.[30] defined distant healing to include spiritual healing, prayer, and any form of healing from a distance, effected as a conscious act that seeks to benefit another person. Therapeutic touch and Reiki were both included in the definition; as both of these may elicit an expectancy response,[31] it becomes even harder to draw definitive conclusions about the literature that Astin et al.[30] examined.

In another systematic review, Crawford et al.[31] examined the quality of studies of hands-on healing and distance healing that were published between 1955 and 2001. There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. Crawford et al.[31] reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. Major methodological problems of the identified studies were an inadequacy of blinding, dropped data in laboratory studies, unreliability of outcome measures, infrequent use of power estimations and confidence intervals, and lack of independent replication.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2802370/

Note that his relates to prayer, something i don't even consider. For me it is clearly the effect of belief and faith on the human mind and body which induces healing.

The whole article is well worth a read. It is only one of dozens if not hundreds of similar studies from around the world. of which 85 % show a positive correlation between belief .spirituality and

greater well being. including better outcomes form diseases and illnesses.

As you can see, I am not necessarily arguing that improvements in cancer or other illnesses are attributable to divine intervention, but they are demonstrably associated with belief and prayer,. In some there are difficulties with methodologies controls etc but these are scientific, academic studies and the results are quite conclusive. Interestingly, the greater the academic rigour of such studies, the greater the correlation between faith and improved health outcomes, becomes. (shown in a meta study of several thousand such studies from this century. )

Edited February 6, 2016 by Mr Walker

[+DieChecker]

aaaah so thats what all those priests were doing with children. preventative healing

It is one of the things that happens when a religion bans its priests from marriage.... :td: :td:

[Mr Walker]

It is one of the things that happens when a religion bans its priests from marriage.... :td: :td:

I am not sure that has any effect. Some of the worst paedophiles are social workers, teachers scout leaders, entertainers etc., all of whom can, and often do, marry.

Like priests they do have a lot of easy access to children and historically have been trusted with children, and i think THAT is why they cluster in those groups of people.

[+DieChecker]

I am not sure that has any effect. Some of the worst paedophiles are social workers, teachers scout leaders, entertainers etc., all of whom can, and often do, marry.

Like priests they do have a lot of easy access to children and historically have been trusted with children, and i think THAT is why they cluster in those groups of people.

True enough. I had not thought of it in those exact terms.

That leads me to wonder if a priest would have just as easy access and authority (to shut up the victim) with young woman parishioners, and not just alter boys.

[Mr Walker]

True enough. I had not thought of it in those exact terms.

That leads me to wonder if a priest would have just as easy access and authority (to shut up the victim) with young woman parishioners, and not just alter boys.

They would, but there has been an historical truth that some homosexual men have been encouraged by different factors including family, the church and self doubt about their sexual expression, to become priests, in the hope of avoiding the issue of having sex at all. Now while only a tiny majority of them become paedophiles, it is a factor. There are some cases of abuse of girls by priests ( I heard about one girls home in Australia where this was a real issue), but it seems much rarer and more opportunistic, rather than systematic..

[+DieChecker]

They would, but there has been an historical truth that some homosexual men have been encouraged by different factors including family, the church and self doubt about their sexual expression, to become priests, in the hope of avoiding the issue of having sex at all. Now while only a tiny majority of them become paedophiles, it is a factor. There are some cases of abuse of girls by priests ( I heard about one girls home in Australia where this was a real issue), but it seems much rarer and more opportunistic, rather than systematic..

I could see that happening. The "effeminate" son is sent off to serve the church, rather then be raised in the family business, or apprenticed out. (Historically)

[back to earth]

I am not sure that has any effect. Some of the worst paedophiles are social workers, teachers scout leaders, entertainers etc., all of whom can, and often do, marry.

Like priests they do have a lot of easy access to children and historically have been trusted with children, and i think THAT is why they cluster in those groups of people.

That is a pretty sick thing to say !

I think it is the issue that these people are sick and have an internal cross wiring problem . If they have it they then are attracted to any children they can have access to .

It isnt the fact that people do it because they have access ..... I hesitate to ponder what that idea implies

Edited February 6, 2016 by back to earth

[ShadowSot]

There isn't an appreciative difference in the number of pedophiles in the priesthood and in the average public. The issue for me has been the hypocrisy of the Church in handling them.

[+DieChecker]

There isn't an appreciative difference in the number of pedophiles in the priesthood and in the average public. The issue for me has been the hypocrisy of the Church in handling them.