Grandpa Greenman Posted December 11, 2004 #1 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Friday December 10, 05:31 PM Ice-age ivory flute found in German cave BERLIN (Reuters) - A 35,000-year-old flute made from a woolly mammoth's ivory tusk has been unearthed in a German cave by archaeologists, says the University of Tuebingen. The flute, one of the oldest musical instruments discovered, was pieced together from 31 fragments found in a cave in the Swabian mountains in southwestern Germany, the university said on Friday. The mountains have yielded rich pickings in recent years, including ivory figurines, ornaments and other musical instruments. Archaeologists believe humans camped in the area in winter and spring. Mammoths, now extinct, were large elephant-like creatures with hairy coats and long, upcurved tusks. They lived during the Pleistocene period from 2 million to 11,000 years ago. The university said it planned to put the instrument on display in a museum in Stuttgart. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041210/325/f8bso.html I wish I could have found some pictures of this. I thought it was pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted December 11, 2004 #2 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Very interesting story. If 35.000 years ago humans had already "discovered" music and had invented musical instruments, then the intelligent humans have appeared on this earth long before we believe. On the latter, there is the discovery of a human skeleton at Halkidiki's Petralona cave, in Greece, which dates back to 700,000 B.C. Several bone tools were also found within the cave as well as traces of the most ancient fire ever lit by human hands in the entire planet (1,000,000 B.C.). Scull of the 700.000 yr old human skeleton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Manfred Posted December 11, 2004 #3 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Very cool discovery. I had no idea humanity, at such an early stage, had developed musical instruments. 35,000 makes it even more interesting as humans as we know them have been around for only 37,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 11, 2004 #4 Share Posted December 11, 2004 if humans can make an instrument like the flute after only being around for 2000 years, i wonder how old humans were when the first tools were made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witch~hunter Posted December 12, 2004 #5 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Geez, it took humans 2000 years to figure out something as simple as a flute? It's no wonder humans are so far behind the rest of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Johnson Posted December 12, 2004 #6 Share Posted December 12, 2004 hmm... looks like the ancient/advanced civilization theory just got proven! atlantis here we come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_Again Posted December 12, 2004 #7 Share Posted December 12, 2004 *wonders if this effects the theory of evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted December 12, 2004 #8 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Geez, it took humans 2000 years to figure out something as simple as a flute? It's no wonder humans are so far behind the rest of the universe. 399087[/snapback] And may I ask with what do you make the comparison when you say "rest of the universe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 12, 2004 #9 Share Posted December 12, 2004 its still amazing to think that something that was invented by man 35 000 years ago, is still around today and will probably be around for alot longer. but i suppose knives have been around for ages even if they were just sharpened bones or flakes of flint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Manfred Posted December 12, 2004 #10 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Knives and weapons are one thing...this is a flute. Music. Which means advanced civilization for a time when most where still roaming tribes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted December 12, 2004 #11 Share Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) Indeed, music indicates a very advanced form of thinking. It's not the same thing as making 'sharp objects' to skin an animal, that is merely survival. Music is completely different....... Edited December 12, 2004 by Art Vandelay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 12, 2004 #12 Share Posted December 12, 2004 agreed...but i wonder when the first drum was invented...that seems to be the obvious choice for 1st ever musical instrument. i take it this means that humans have been intelligently creative far longer than we had previously thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asterix Posted December 12, 2004 #13 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Perhaps even more impressive than the discovery of a flute in 35.000 BC is to discover that people had developed the ability to write as early as in 15.000 BC. Recent story on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 12, 2004 #14 Share Posted December 12, 2004 that is quite interesting aswel nbut the thought that early humans 35 000 years ago playing music is abig difference to the image of living only in caves and painting on walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witch~hunter Posted December 12, 2004 #15 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Okay, let's say the mammoth tusk is 35,000 years old. My question is, when did it become a flute? If I tear down a 200 year old barn and use the wood to make furniture, can I call it antique furniture? Mammoth tusk are still found to this day. Regardless, I doubt it had anything to do with the advent of music, it was more than likely a toy, something to keep Jr. from wandering off and being eaten by wolves. On the point of music, let's try a little exercise. Listen to your favorite song, think about how it makes you feel, what is the song about? Tell me and I'll say you're wrong. That song was written, produced, and recorded to make money! That is all it's really about. The only thing the song was meant to convey, is your money into some CEO's pocket. Funny that humans get so passionate over sound waves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 12, 2004 #16 Share Posted December 12, 2004 On the point of music, let's try a little exercise. Listen to your favorite song, think about how it makes you feel, what is the song about? Tell me and I'll say you're wrong. That song was written, produced, and recorded to make money! That is all it's really about. The only thing the song was meant to convey, is your money into some CEO's pocket. Funny that humans get so passionate over sound waves. 400431[/snapback] if you think music was only ever to make money....you are sadly mistaken and should go back to school. if you had been to school you would have known that even the compossers we class as "great" made much money. lots of people also encorperate music into religion ( such as hymns). people listen to music for all different reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witch~hunter Posted December 12, 2004 #17 Share Posted December 12, 2004 It wasn't a comment on the orgins of music Frey Kade, or on the reasons people bother with it. Only a statement on the state of modern music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Johnson Posted December 12, 2004 #18 Share Posted December 12, 2004 mozart died a poor man. (as in, he had next to no money) so music is merely to make money? join a band. like me. you'll see, it's not just for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted December 12, 2004 Author #19 Share Posted December 12, 2004 (edited) Okay, let's say the mammoth tusk is 35,000 years old. My question is, when did it become a flute? If I tear down a 200 year old barn and use the wood to make furniture, can I call it antique furniture? Mammoth tusk are still found to this day. Regardless, I doubt it had anything to do with the advent of music, it was more than likely a toy, something to keep Jr. from wandering off and being eaten by wolves. If you made furniture out of a 200 year old barn you would be able to tell by the fresh cuts in the wood and how it was made to know it wasn't an antique. On the point of music, let's try a little exercise. Listen to your favorite song, think about how it makes you feel, what is the song about? Tell me and I'll say you're wrong. That song was written, produced, and recorded to make money! That is all it's really about. The only thing the song was meant to convey, is your money into some CEO's pocket. Funny that humans get so passionate over sound waves. 400431[/snapback] I take it you have never known a musican. They play for the joy of the music if they make any money off it and most don't it is a plus. You must live a joyless life to think way about music. I go to drumming circles and we all make music even those lacking in talent.(me) You should go to one and discover the passion of sound waves. Edited December 12, 2004 by Darkwind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyKade Posted December 12, 2004 #20 Share Posted December 12, 2004 and if you had read the first post properly, you would have seen that it said "A 35,000-year-old flute made from a woolly mammoth's ivory tusk" which implies the flute itself was 35 000 years old. NOT the ivory was 35 000 years old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witch~hunter Posted December 12, 2004 #21 Share Posted December 12, 2004 So what are we comparing with the flute, to be sure it is of the style and type used 35,000 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted December 13, 2004 Author #22 Share Posted December 13, 2004 So what are we comparing with the flute, to be sure it is of the style and type used 35,000 years ago? 400682[/snapback] It could be compared to a tool made as the same time. They would use the same type of tool to make a tool as they did the flute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Manfred Posted December 13, 2004 #23 Share Posted December 13, 2004 witch~hunter, these guys are experts in this field...if they say it's 32,000 years old then it's 32,000 years old...give or take a few centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexel Posted December 13, 2004 #24 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Thats a very good point though, is the material used to make the flute that old is is the flute it's self that old ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koenig212003 Posted December 13, 2004 #25 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Its actually quite easy for a faunal analyst to tell if the worked bone/ivory/etc. was green(fresh) at the time it was worked or if it was done much later. So more than likely if its reported as being 35,000 years old then that means the artifact was worked ~35,000 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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