The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

[back to earth]

Are you ridiculing what you don't understand or simply being obtuse.?

Have you done ANY research on this yourself, yet?

In a sense your description above is correct but you need to understand how and why this process occurs in a young infant's mind, rather than dismiss and ridicule it.

So, now you are questioning whether I understand it or am being obtuse and then you admit it is correct .

[Mr Walker]

Every single poster except for you understands the distinction and you not only are not grasping it, but now saying that my post and now Sharon's is what you meant.

Hog wash her and I and every one else understand the studies, it is you who doesn't.

There are no studies or theories that support that an in utero pre- language fetus or embryo thinks about and constructs God, Santa etc. internally by themselves.

This is nonsense.

Every poster has tried to help you understand and you only get deeper invested in your interpretation.

You are not understanding the material and since you do this all the time (no matter what the topic) from experience all this will bring is a derailed thread and become your podium to now start posting essays on how great you are.

I am done. In truth, we all need to be done with this.

You are wrong, and i don't know why you are insistent on this this It would be almost impossible for a child NOT to construct "magical agents of change" to explain changes in their environment, and a god construct is only such a construct. multiple studies have proven this is an apparently uniform process in all human children.

In considering the opening question one CANNOT be done with it as it explains why humans believe. It has nothing to do with being taught to believe by others, and all to do with internal construction of belief in our minds. Your argument is that of those who desperately need to believe that religion is a construct of indoctrination of children. It is not. It evolves from individual inner constructions of belief which are then shaped by culture This form of thinking remains in an a adults cognitive process and comes out under stress.

If you dont accept this then you need to do more reading.

[back to earth]

No you wally I am NOT. I do NOT believe in gods I was educated out of such beliefs into atheism. I am pointing out how the human mind works and why humans have a natrla propensity to believe

You still cant distinguish between belief and knowledge . I know you think you can ... but you have this problem you cant see ... but a lot of others can see it.

Because of your mind set, you can't accept i can KNOW a god, and so you are compelled to infer i must believe in them, and thus go on to infer i must justify and rationalise this belief by misinterpreting scholarly articles .

Thats pretty close ! You just got a few words wrong though : Because of my mind set, I cant accept I can believe in a god, and so I am compelled to infer i must know them, and thus go on to justify and rationalise this belief as knowledge by misinterpreting scholarly articles

I have NO NEED to do any of this because my relationship with god is NOT belief based. I HAVE no belief in gods existence, just as i have no belief in my parents existence.

Thats it ... you keep assuring yourself ... it will keep you safe .

I kinda figured this reasoning was behind your mindset. Forget about me and go do your own research on infant cognitive development and the construction of god concepts

Whatever i might or might not believe, you will find i have accurately explained it . .

Nope ... yuo are riddled with self biased ... multiple observers see it, not just me , so your points have been made invalid.

[XenoFish]

Read this it might enlighten you a little.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

https://www.psycholo...-over-the-years

The only thing that would influence a child to develop a god construct is an external influence. Much like leaving cookies out for Santa. A tooth for the tooth fairy in which a quarter magically appears. If a child is taught to pray and something happens (a coincidence) that makes the prayer "real" that child (or an adult) will associate that action and reinforce the belief in god. This does not make god real, Santa real, or the tooth fairy. It is only a belief.

Edited January 6, 2016 by XenoFish

[Mr Walker]

There are both willing and unwilling belief. To indoctrinate a child into a belief system is to forge a set perspective of reality. They will see the world as the other sheep do. It also depends on the belief system itself. If the child is raised with strong morals and real confidence (one that built upon results rather than ego stroking). Then this person will grow up better than one has be in a religious setting. Do I have proof of this. Nope. Just making a claim based on observation. I've seen many of my daughters friends do whatever they desire because "Jesus has their back." and my favorite "I'm saved." which for some reason kicks out all sense of self responsibility.

So now walker you don't believe in god? What the heck is up with you? I've been trying to figure you out since I first started posting here and it's like everything about you is a farce. I can not take anything you say as factual or even realistic for that matter.

Belief is a position we construct when we lack knowledge or evidences.

Purely personally, i know god as well (and as physically) as i know my parents and based on exactly the same physical evidences of reality. if god isn't "real" then my parents were not either, by the same evidential criteria. . i have lived with it for 40 years. it is real, physical, powerful, wise protective and interactive with my life. So i CANNOT believe or disbelieve in god, any more than i could believe or disbelieve in my parent's existence. Thus i have no need to justify, or legitimise, or validate, a belief position

Naturally, one ot two skeptics with no similar evidences completely refuse to accept this. That is reasonable and logical except that it forces them to totally misinterpret and misunderstand almost everything about me. For example they think i need to believe belief is natural, to justify my own belief.

[back to earth]

There are both willing and unwilling belief. To indoctrinate a child into a belief system is to forge a set perspective of reality. They will see the world as the other sheep do. It also depends on the belief system itself. If the child is raised with strong morals and real confidence (one that built upon results rather than ego stroking). Then this person will grow up better than one has be in a religious setting. Do I have proof of this. Nope. Just making a claim based on observation. I've seen many of my daughters friends do whatever they desire because "Jesus has their back." and my favorite "I'm saved." which for some reason kicks out all sense of self responsibility.

So now walker you don't believe in god? What the heck is up with you? I've been trying to figure you out since I first started posting here and it's like everything about you is a farce. I can not take anything you say as factual or even realistic for that matter.

Unlike all other people Walker does not believe

because he knows - God dammit !

he knows God exists ... without a doubt ! (well, he did yesterday )

[Mr Walker]

You still cant distinguish between belief and knowledge . I know you think you can ... but you have this problem you cant see ... but a lot of others can see it.

Thats pretty close ! You just got a few words wrong though : Because of my mind set, I cant accept I can believe in a god, and so I am compelled to infer i must know them, and thus go on to justify and rationalise this belief as knowledge by misinterpreting scholarly articles

Thats it ... you keep assuring yourself ... it will keep you safe .

Nope ... yuo are riddled with self biased ... multiple observers see it, not just me , so your points have been made invalid.

This judgement is based on factual error and personal lack of knowledge i cant refute it until t you have your own experience but you are simply wrong

ALL the evidences in my life support me in this including professional assessments of my abilty to recognise reality and to have a high degree of functionality in the real world

It is very simple. You have a compelling disbelief in the existence of god which means you CANNOT accept that i might know such an entity, All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

The existence of any entity, living or inanimate, is easily verifiable e using a few simple tests. if you consistently apply those tests over time with the same positive results then you KNOW something is real (has independent physical existence) It is how we come to distinguish ALL external reality. It is how i know my parents were real physical beings, and how i came to know that the entity humans refer to as god, also is.

It is physically and statistically impossible tha t i could be able to perfeclty recognise and interact with ALL other components of my physical environment and yet not (applying the same evidences and logic_ NOT be able to recognise that "god" was not physically independent of my mind. In other words if i misinterpreted/perceived god, this would show up in other misinterpretations or perceptions of reality, and it does not.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Mr Walker

[back to earth]

You are wrong, and i don't know why you are insistent on this this It would be almost impossible for a child NOT to construct "magical agents of change" to explain changes in their environment, and a god construct is only such a construct. multiple studies have proven this is an apparently uniform process in all human children.

here is a good example of the utter transparent bull**** you try to pull off !

You ignore all the relevant exposing of what you clearly said ... and try to back peddle into a different position . You dont answer what was said or asked but go on to rave about something else.

We will never forget this Walker ... that children, with no conditioning make up santa in their own heads

its going on the list with your other stupid and embarrassing classics - like your triple titty space girl fantasy

In considering the opening question one CANNOT be done with it as it explains why humans believe. It has nothing to do with being taught to believe by others, and all to do with internal construction of belief in our minds. Your argument is that of those who desperately need to believe that religion is a construct of indoctrination of children. It is not. It evolves from individual inner constructions of belief which are then shaped by culture This form of thinking remains in an a adults cognitive process and comes out under stress.

If you dont accept this then you need to do more reading.

So, more undefined references ? I still want to know what belief is formed in an infant that is yet to be defined by later programming ... that is already defined as God or Santa . .

[back to earth]

Read this it might enlighten you a little.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

https://www.psycholo...-over-the-years

The only thing that would influence a child to develop a god construct is an external influence. Much like leaving cookies out for Santa. A tooth for the tooth fairy in which a quarter magically appears. If a child is taught to pray and something happens (a coincidence) that makes the prayer "real" that child (or an adult) will associate that action and reinforce the belief in god. This does not make god real, Santa real, or the tooth fairy. It is only a belief.

Oh no ... research shows that children bought up in the remote jungles of Borneo create their own tooth fairies and spontaneously came up with the idea to leave it out at night to get money .

You go and find that research and read it ... before you deem to argue with me about it

:su

[XenoFish]

[XenoFish]

Oh no ... research shows that children bought up in the remote jungles of Borneo create their own tooth fairies and spontaneously came up with the idea to leave it out at night to get money .

You go and find that research and read it ... before you deem to argue with me about it

:su

[back to earth]

This judgement is based on factual error and personal lack of knowledge i cant refute it until t you have your own experience but you are simply wrong

No, you are simply wrong .

ALL the evidences in my life support me in this including professional assessments of my abilty to recognise reality and to have a high degree of functionality in the real world

Except for here , which 'strangely enough' is the only place we can observe your behavior, psychology and personality.

Its wonderful how you have accrued so much self-supporting evidence for your own self

It is very simple. You have a compelling disbelief in the existence of god which means you CANNOT accept that i might know such an entity,

yet another classic example of your blindness .

How many times have you stated the 'fact' that I dont believe in God .... how many times have I challenged you to show me where I said that ... and how many times have you ignored that segwayed around it and then used it again to make some type of wrongly invalid point . to lift yourself up in your own opinion of yourself.

You wont answer that of course, so I will .... a lot !

All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

Well, aren't you the clever superior arrogant Walker then !

" He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him."

The existence of any entity, living or inanimate, is easily verifiable e using a few simple tests. if you consistently apply those tests over time with the same positive results then you KNOW something is real (has independent physical existence) It is how we come to distinguish ALL external reality. It is how i know my parents were real physical beings, and how i came to know that the entity humans refer to as god, also is.

you really are going around in circles over old ground that already has been dealt with ... havent you got any more than this ! ?

Edited January 6, 2016 by back to earth

[Mr Walker]

here is a good example of the utter transparent bull**** you try to pull off !

You ignore all the relevant exposing of what you clearly said ... and try to back peddle into a different position . You dont answer what was said or asked but go on to rave about something else.

We will never forget this Walker ... that children, with no conditioning make up santa in their own heads

its going on the list with your other stupid and embarrassing classics - like your triple titty space girl fantasy

So, more undefined references ? I still want to know what belief is formed in an infant that is yet to be defined by later programming ... that is already defined as God or Santa . .

Don't forget it, because it is true Children DO construct their own "santa constructs" They won't call it santa, but it will have the same attributes. Some of the articles already posted here SHOW children doing this. Really, what is so hard to understand? Where do you think imaginary friends come from in a child's mind?

Please don't forget my triple tittied space alien DREAM, either. You too, can construct controlled lucid dreams to act out any fantasy you desire. OR to play through real life dilemmas and problem solve in your dreams. .

I am not the one who should be embarrassed by their lack of knowledge.

[Mr Walker]

No, you are simply wrong .

Except for here , which 'strangely enough' is the only place we can observe your behavior, psychology and personality.

Its wonderful how yuo have accrued so much self-supporting evidence for your own self

yet another classic example of you blindness .

How many times have you stated the 'fact' that dont believe in God .... how many times have I challenged you to show me where I said that ... and how many times have you ignored that segwayed around it and then used it again to make some type of wrongly invalid point . to lift yourself up in your own opinion of yourself.

You wont answer that of course, so I will .... a lot !

Well, aren't you the clever superior arrogant Walker then !

" He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him."

you really are going around in circles over old ground that already has been dealt with ... havent you got any more than this ! ?

the argument is circular because you pursue it in a circle.

Ok so you believe in god but you don't believe god is of the sort to be able to physically manifest? Or you don't believe it would do so for me, but not for you? Is THAT your problem?

All i can go by on this forum are your words and they express and they express a TOTAL disbelief that god might manifest in my life That means either you don't believe a god exists which CAN manifest OR you don't believe it would do so in my life . Which is it?.

[back to earth]

* All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

* My travels in space have been confirmed by scientific discoveries ... I ****ed a triple breasted space whore once.

* Children, all by themselves , with no outside input at all, come up with the concept of Santa Claus.

(and again, as it soooo good after those two classics ; )

* All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

I think that says it all for he present .

[XenoFish]

For I have called unto god, crying through the spectral realms. When the phone was answered all I got was "This number is no longer in service." though frustrated I was again I call. Nothing but a dial tone.

Oh ye elder god, I beseech thee. Answer my prayers. I ask of you to enlighten me to the madness that is Mr.Walker. Grant your servant this wisdom. So that I may share with the world which god he is communing with.

It is through faith that I ask.

(That little spark of chaos felt good, like old times. When even the most absurd belief could make the day more laughable.)

[Mr Walker]

* All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

* My travels in space have been confirmed by scientific discoveries ... I ****ed a triple breasted space whore once.

* Children, all by themselves , with no outside input at all, come up with the concept of Santa Claus.

(and again, as it soooo good after those two classics ; )

* All you have is belief. I have knowledge and evidences.

I think that says it all for he present .

I have knowledge and evidences Eg i knew about things in the solar system before the y were discovered via projection of my consciousness At the time this was NOT knowledge . The discoveries PROVIDED the evidential confirmation of the accuracy of my observations and made my experiences with those places knowledge not an internal construction. .

You do not have similar experiential and verified knowledge, to me, and so naturally you are skeptical. All you have, if you have no knowledge, is belief. Without knowledge it is ALL anyone can have.

The woman was a deliberate construct of controlled lucid dreaming whe i was a bout 14 i dont find it embarasing os why do youthnk it is?

[XenoFish]

Show me the evidence. Do you have a life crystal from god's royal treasury? Perhaps you've read ahead in the book of life and know all the good endings? Spend time golfing with the archangel Gabriel?

The woman was a deliberate construct of controlled lucid dreaming whe i was a bout 14 i dont find it embarasing os why do youthnk it is?

So you gave esoteric meaning to a wet dream? I did that too when I was 14. She was asian, had cat eyes and raven wings. I had my learners permit into the occult. It was a weird time, plus anime didn't help. Weird, weird dreams. Ahh to be young, dumb, and........

Edited January 7, 2016 by XenoFish

[+Sherapy]

No you wally I am NOT. I do NOT believe in gods I was educated out of such beliefs into atheism. I am pointing out how the human mind works and why humans have a natrla propensity to believe

Because of your mind set, you can't accept i can KNOW a god, and so you are compelled to infer i must believe in them, and thus go on to infer i must justify and rationalise this belief by misinterpreting scholarly articles .

I have NO NEED to do any of this because my relationship with god is NOT belief based. I HAVE no belief in gods existence, just as i have no belief in my parents existence.

I kinda figured this reasoning was behind your mindset. Forget about me and go do your own research on infant cognitive development and the construction of god concepts

Whatever i might or might not believe, you will find i have accurately explained it . .

And, here we go...

This is an ad hominem argument designed to attack BTE, instead of counter with a better argument.

Your right, no one accepts your argument because it is a poor argument, therefore it does not persuade anyone of your conclusion.

So, go back to the drawing board and redraft your argument by taking the feedback and applying it.

But just a heads up know unless you are willing to hinge your claim on faith it isn't going to get far.

Nota bene you will never see PA or Robin making God claims other then on faith.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

No you wally I am NOT. I do NOT believe in gods I was educated out of such beliefs into atheism. I am pointing out how the human mind works and why humans have a natrla propensity to believe

Because of your mind set, you can't accept i can KNOW a god, and so you are compelled to infer i must believe in them, and thus go on to infer i must justify and rationalise this belief by misinterpreting scholarly articles .

I have NO NEED to do any of this because my relationship with god is NOT belief based. I HAVE no belief in gods existence, just as i have no belief in my parents existence.

I kinda figured this reasoning was behind your mindset. Forget about me and go do your own research on infant cognitive development and the construction of god concepts

Whatever i might or might not believe, you will find i have accurately explained it . .

Yes, BTE has you pegged!

[XenoFish]

Any spiritual belief that is taken seriously by idiots is a dangerous weapon. It's the serious ones that cause trouble. I find that those with casual faith who hold their belief with just enough security are more lax in their lives. They don't pass judgment, nothing shakes their faith except themselves. Why so serious? That's the question. If all it takes is faith then that's all you truly need. To believe. It doesn't matter how you pray or how much you pray. What matters is how you present your faith. Good or Evil?

[+Sherapy]

Unlike all other people Walker does not believe

because he knows - God dammit !

he knows God exists ... without a doubt ! (well, he did yesterday )

Okay, I think he is saying he doesn't operate on belief like the lowly atheist or theist, he also is saying that Philosophy is founded on beliefs, but and this is the clincher he on the other hand 'knows' God, and uses his reality checkers ( that are made up probably when he was an embryo, they just came to him), not on faith like his poor misguided wife, but on knowledge.

Basically, he is out to be right( as his mom taught him it is better to stand for what is right then to tell a lie) and he would be lieing if he didn't tell us about this great guy God who is as real as his dog and gives all kinds of superhuman powers, walking through walls, being able to predict the lottery, time travel, eternal happiness, no sadness, a money tree in the yard, sex with any cartoon character, all the coke zero he can drink. etc etc

Edited January 7, 2016 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

@Sherapy

"Shh, it's okay. No one can comprehend the unexplained mystery that is Mr.Walkers mind."

[Mr Walker]

Read this it might enlighten you a little.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

https://www.psycholo...-over-the-years

The only thing that would influence a child to develop a god construct is an external influence. Much like leaving cookies out for Santa. A tooth for the tooth fairy in which a quarter magically appears. If a child is taught to pray and something happens (a coincidence) that makes the prayer "real" that child (or an adult) will associate that action and reinforce the belief in god. This does not make god real, Santa real, or the tooth fairy. It is only a belief.

Yes an external influence Ie somethng a child sees or experiences in its environment which causes a chain of thought ini ts mind NOT necessarily a verbal cue or other exposure to the concept. And OF COURSE belief has no connection to reality Who would think it did? Thus is an EVOLVED human characteristic which evolved for survival purposes.

So when a child finds food has appeared on its high chair it will work out eventually from observed experience that a human puts it there, but suppose a sock suddenly appears., what will it think then? how does it explain using the information and experience it has something which occurs but it did not witness occurring.

A thriving 2-year-old is a busy scientist actively exploring and creating his own theories about how things work. Julian loves to turn lights on and off. Does he think it is his fingertip that magically creates light and dark? Or, is it the blinking of his eyes that he does each time he flicks the switch? Two-year-olds do not have enough information about the world yet to draw reasonable conclusions.

Remember that magical thinking is the very young child's way of trying to figure out how things work.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

Children between ages 2 to 7 would be classified under his Preoperational Stage of development. During this stage children are perceived to not be able to use logical thinking. A child's thinking is dominated by perceptions of physical features, meaning that if they are told that a family pet has gone away, then the child will have difficulty comprehending the transformation of the dog not being around anymore. Magical thinking would be evident here, since the child may believe that the family pet being gone is just temporary. Their young minds in this stage do not understand the finality of death and magical thinking bridges the gap.

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

Modern research has pushed this age back even before two years, The following is a very long read but fascinating.

http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1060&context=theses

Edited January 7, 2016 by Mr Walker

[XenoFish]

belief has no connection to reality Who would think it did?

Depends on the belief. If you believe you can do 100 consecutive push-ups. That's a belief that can be proven or disproven. If you believe a magic man in the sky grants your prayer request, then that has no connection with reality outside of your own perception of it.

I'm going to assume by your edit that you're finding a way to prove that you are right? Let's just say that some people never outgrow magical thinking. It's the reason people pray, cast spells, and do funny rituals. Sure those actions have a influential effect on the psyche. Especially if it's based on symbolism. The stronger the emotional value you put into such action the greater the growth potential such thoughts have in the deep mind.

Like a mustard seed, a small amount of belief/faith can grown with every ounce of confirmation bias. Each success fueling the dopamine god. People still go with the sympathetic magick, thinking that if they have their lucky shirt all will be well. Simple associations. Magick taught me a lot about the mind.

Beliefs are a double edged sword that's razor sharp. One side can produce brilliant people, the other side can produce dangerous individuals. Some of them are fueled by the dopamine god. Doesn't matter the name or the belief system, it's the same god. (holy hell that's a revelation)

Edited January 7, 2016 by XenoFish