The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

[psyche101]

your world view is too alien for me to have a reasonable discussion with you That is not meant to be a criticism of you. My own world view is also unusual and contributes to the difficulty.

That sounds fair and mutual.

But for examole I have been given a clean bill of health and i KNOW my relationship with god is a physical one, where god exists as part of the external landscape, not within my mind.

Because this is unbelievable to you, we cannot have any form of understanding. You are forced to assume and attribute motivations etc to me which simply do not exist.

It is not only unbelievable to me, it is unbelievable to any rational mind, the only people who can discuss a physical God that they meet in their backyard tend to be "getting help" or need it. It is more than unbelievable, it is irrational, it defies all we know, even the Bible, where God was constructed. See Exodus 33:20.

I do not know how to respond to such a pessimistic, and in my view false, way of seeing the world There are actually very few Muslims who are zealots and haters and far fewer who want to kill all non Muslims It is not even an anti Christian thing. Sunnis and shias kil far more of each other than they do of non believers.

Do you know what Wahhabism is? Fundamental Islam. Ever seen the ABC documentary "Jihad Sheilas"? I have posted it a few times - that is Wahhabism. Those twisted sick women are Wahhabi. And in your country. You may not have met them, but I assure you, they exist. Go have a look for yourself.

A population of Fundamentalists that comprise of around 4.5 million people according to estimates, then we have about 48,000 Muslims in general society that support terrorist ideals. Ands out of that, overall 1.6 billion claim to represent the faith.

That is not all by a long shot, it is a significant count and one to be concerned about, and that which you seem to be blissfully unaware of.

My way of life only turns away a few people on UM. In real life my wife and i are loved, respected, and cared for/about, by many many people, because of who and what we are and how we live.

This includes non Christians and atheists who see our role in the community and with our family. Our honesty, integrity, and care for others, our ability to fit in, be positive, and put others first, brings a good relationship with our communities.

Do you tell them you have chats with God in your backyard?

Or wander the Solar System with Aliens at night?

Or sleep with triple breasted women?

You cant understand people who 'need" religion or belief.

I cant understand people who feel a need to smoke or drink or take drugs. To me they are "wacky "

i don't understand people who think they can be happy through materialism, greed, lust and pleasure. iI just doesn't work, as the rates of suicide and depression as well as the general malaise of a lack of joy and pleasure in rich materialist societies demonstrates.

i cant comprehend people who need friends so badly they do hurtful, harmful, or silly things, to win and keep friends, or to whom being popular is more important than doing right.

I cant understand people who waste their lives and their human potentials and are never challenged to be all they can be.

I cant understand people who feel lonely or cut off from others.

i cant understand people who feel unworthy, ashamed, or less than other people.

I cant understand those who then feel the need to put down others, or try to drag them down into their own slough of misery and despondency/despair.

These are the incomprehensible things to me. Not people's need for faith, belief, and ritual

WOW - Religion is supposed to teach you how to both avoid this way of life, and assist those drowning in it!!

What do you do at your Church? Play Scrabble? The Church has DEEPLY let you down here, as compassion is supposed to be a main tenet of the Christian relgion!!! You should be up to speed on all of the above, and understand how people fall into these traps so you can help them out of it, and show them a better way.

The one thing relgion is supposed to teach you is to Understand. Yet here you admit that is simply not the case. What's the point of it then? So you can present yourself to the God you want to exist?

Thank Goodness that your church does not run Rosies!!!

My not understanding people needing relgion and faith is really quite simple, Science well outdoes it, and answers the questions relgion cannot, and proves that relgion pretty much got HIstory 100% entirely wrong. It is flawed, and proven so. Despite zealots with a superior attitude I understand relgion quite well thanks to my Mother and Father. And spent years immersed in it. Thing is I read too. That upsets the balance relgion prefers.

But you "just do not get it" with those aspects you say.

Of course some smart people like top neuro surgeon, and Presidential candidate, Ben Carson, also happen to have an unshakeable faith in god. .

What bearing do you feel this has? Many in Academia follow the same ideology, in fact about 700 people hold a postgraduate degree in a recognized area of science yet conform to creationism, if they wish to live a contradiction, that is their choice, that is what God is, not a real thing, a choice.

Intelligence is no barrier to faith Australia is a bit different to america.

Why are facts different in different countries again?

LINK

In Australia the better educated you are the more religious you tend to be, according to statistics. and most of the top level of society went to school through private often religious based schools, rather than government ones.

I put my kids through religious school without indoctrination so they could make their own choice, so far, my son has chosen wisely. Simply put, Religious schools get more money than public schools and have more resources. So the level of education should be higher, even though I am unsure either way, unless you have something to back your statement?

And that shows us to me more like America than our founders - Britain, whom I loudly applaud!!! Yet Bush the Bigot said that Atheists are not regarded as citizens!!!!!!!!

I do not suppose you have ever noticed this?

IN GOD WE TRUST

Britain on the other hand has Darwin on the currency.

GO BRITAIN!!!

[psyche101]

First, that developing cognitive mechanisms cause children to construct their own god constructs well before they can learn them from others, and second, that as they learn language and exchange ideas, they THEN develop specific cultural learning, and so their individual belief in gods becomes their parent' s belief or another strong cultural belief.

That happens to be the story of mankind as well and why relgion is now redundant - so you see as as children that will never grow up? Maybe you should change you nick from Mr Walker to Peter Pan?

[psyche101]

east coast UM 'conference' !

Done deal, but I might have to visit in the meantime with those pics, is that Lennox?

Edited January 7, 2016 by psyche101

[psyche101]

I have knowledge and evidences Eg i knew about things in the solar system before the y were discovered via projection of my consciousness

This I GOTTA see.

Proof?

[+Sherapy]

Yes an external influence Ie somethng a child sees or experiences in its environment which causes a chain of thought ini ts mind NOT necessarily a verbal cue or other exposure to the concept. And OF COURSE belief has no connection to reality Who would think it did? Thus is an EVOLVED human characteristic which evolved for survival purposes.

So when a child finds food has appeared on its high chair it will work out eventually from observed experience that a human puts it there, but suppose a sock suddenly appears., what will it think then? how does it explain using the information and experience it has something which occurs but it did not witness occurring.

A thriving 2-year-old is a busy scientist actively exploring and creating his own theories about how things work. Julian loves to turn lights on and off. Does he think it is his fingertip that magically creates light and dark? Or, is it the blinking of his eyes that he does each time he flicks the switch? Two-year-olds do not have enough information about the world yet to draw reasonable conclusions.

Remember that magical thinking is the very young child's way of trying to figure out how things work.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

Children between ages 2 to 7 would be classified under his Preoperational Stage of development. During this stage children are perceived to not be able to use logical thinking. A child's thinking is dominated by perceptions of physical features, meaning that if they are told that a family pet has gone away, then the child will have difficulty comprehending the transformation of the dog not being around anymore. Magical thinking would be evident here, since the child may believe that the family pet being gone is just temporary. Their young minds in this stage do not understand the finality of death and magical thinking bridges the gap.

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

Modern research has pushed this age back even before two years, The following is a very long read but fascinating.

http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1060&context=theses

Ah, now I see where you are getting all your odd ideas.

I don't find them fascinating, I find them disturbing. It seems like you are looking to find ways to indoctrinate by preying on kids. That they are so young it so unethical to me to look for ways to capitalize on God and call it education. I'd feel the same way if it was atheists doing this.

Two of my sons on their own have chosen to walk paths that include a belief in God at this point, this was their decision as adults not mine, and it should not be mine, I made a point not unlike Psyche to avoid imposing my ideas about God or politics onto my kids. I think it is amoral behavior.

I can't think of a good reason to strip my child of their right to critically think; I will not advocate any dogma that seeks to do this either.

It sounds to me the equivalence of creationism, evolution is not liked by the religious so they make up their own ideas. This sounds the same they don't like Piaget's theories on how kids think so they make up new ones.

I am thinking you live in a very religious area like our Bible Belt here, You even posted that the majority of people in your area are fundies.

From my perspective, I live in a diverse metropolis ( millions of people) from all walks of life and what is happening is not a spiritual crisis, but people coming together regardless of the path they walk. We are working on tolerance and unity and celebrating difference not trying to force God on each other. I am staying on that path. We teach about the various religions in public school, and are one of the few if not only states doing this we do not teach that there is a god or there is not a god we teach what different faiths believe and how to respect each other.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

Depends on the belief. If you believe you can do 100 consecutive push-ups. That's a belief that can be proven or disproven. If you believe a magic man in the sky grants your prayer request, then that has no connection with reality outside of your own perception of it.

I'm going to assume by your edit that you're finding a way to prove that you are right? Let's just say that some people never outgrow magical thinking. It's the reason people pray, cast spells, and do funny rituals. Sure those actions have a influential effect on the psyche. Especially if it's based on symbolism. The stronger the emotional value you put into such action the greater the growth potential such thoughts have in the deep mind.

Like a mustard seed, a small amount of belief/faith can grown with every ounce of confirmation bias. Each success fueling the dopamine god. People still go with the sympathetic magick, thinking that if they have their lucky shirt all will be well. Simple associations. Magick taught me a lot about the mind.

Beliefs are a double edged sword that's razor sharp. One side can produce brilliant people, the other side can produce dangerous individuals. Some of them are fueled by the dopamine god. Doesn't matter the name or the belief system, it's the same god. (holy hell that's a revelation)

No until you do the push ups it is ONLY belief. Once done it is knowledge and can not be belief.

No human being completely outgrows magical thinking because it is our earliest and default cognitive position. We merely learn other forms of thinking and also, perhaps more significantly , gain more data and knowledge upon which to make informed decisions; but, faced with the unknowable, all we have is some form of belief/disbelief position, or a refusal to chose ethe,. and admit to not knowing.

Not knowing in an external environment is dangerous to humans and in crisis situations leads us to freeze, so we generally adopt a prior position of belief/disbelief which enables us to act. eg we build a position of belief that that rustling in the bushes signals danger, whether it actually does or not.

i edit all my posts

God is not only dopamine because humans are not only chemically reactive animals. A god is an intellectual and rational construct of belief for many. it can also, as evidenced by other studies, come from the experiences of the very young. (or indeed from the individial experiences of a human at any age.) Belief faith and spirituality have been shown to be INDIVIDUAL constructs often growing from a child's individual experiences and perception of the people and things around it. Faith belief and god are basically originally different in every human being. Religions tend to codify and make more uniform those individual beliefs, allowing more cooperative and social endeavours by groups of humans.

So in a sense god is the same for all, as love is the same for all, and yet, in that god is an intellectually aware construct, every human's god is different, and tailored to their own sense of identity.

[+Link of Hyrule]

The only thing that would influence a child to develop a god construct is an external influence.

Doesn't EVERYTHING that influences the development of a child occur through external influences?

[back to earth]

For I have called unto god, crying through the spectral realms. When the phone was answered all I got was "This number is no longer in service." though frustrated I was again I call. Nothing but a dial tone.

Lucky ! I got placed in a queue and had to listen to this on the way up

For I have called unto god, crying through the spectral realms. When the phone was answered all I got was "This number is no longer in service." though frustrated I was again I call. Nothing but a dial tone.

Lucky ! I got placed in a queue and had to listen to this on the way up

[psyche101]

Doesn't EVERYTHING that influences the development of a child occur through external influences?

External influences can still offer a choice though, relgion does not.

[back to earth]

[now this site is going in circles .... thats 3 posts the same ]

Edited January 7, 2016 by back to earth

[back to earth]

Yes an external influence Ie somethng a child sees or experiences in its environment which causes a chain of thought ini ts mind NOT necessarily a verbal cue or other exposure to the concept. And OF COURSE belief has no connection to reality Who would think it did? Thus is an EVOLVED human characteristic which evolved for survival purposes.

So when a child finds food has appeared on its high chair it will work out eventually from observed experience that a human puts it there, but suppose a sock suddenly appears., what will it think then? how does it explain using the information and experience it has something which occurs but it did not witness occurring.

A thriving 2-year-old is a busy scientist actively exploring and creating his own theories about how things work. Julian loves to turn lights on and off. Does he think it is his fingertip that magically creates light and dark? Or, is it the blinking of his eyes that he does each time he flicks the switch? Two-year-olds do not have enough information about the world yet to draw reasonable conclusions.

Remember that magical thinking is the very young child's way of trying to figure out how things work.

http://www.scholasti...agical-thinking

Children between ages 2 to 7 would be classified under his Preoperational Stage of development. During this stage children are perceived to not be able to use logical thinking. A child's thinking is dominated by perceptions of physical features, meaning that if they are told that a family pet has gone away, then the child will have difficulty comprehending the transformation of the dog not being around anymore. Magical thinking would be evident here, since the child may believe that the family pet being gone is just temporary. Their young minds in this stage do not understand the finality of death and magical thinking bridges the gap.

https://en.wikipedia...agical_thinking

Modern research has pushed this age back even before two years,

then why have you quoted faulty research above to make your point " Two-year-olds do not have enough information about the world yet to draw reasonable conclusions. " ?

[back to earth]

Do you tell them you have chats with God in your backyard?

Or wander the Solar System with Aliens at night?

Or sleep with triple breasted women?

of course he doesnt ! and I know that as he told us so , he said he doesnt tell people that stuff as they will judge him adversely and that he only tells us as here his real identity is masked ... then tries to convince us that everyone else in his life, but not on here thinks he is okay ... and it is just that we , for some reason, think he is fruitcake ... when no one else does

eye yi yi yiyi !

[psyche101]

of course he doesnt ! and I know that as he told us so , he said he doesnt tell people that stuff as they will judge him adversely and that he only tells us as here his real identity is masked ... then tries to convince us that everyone else in his life, but not on here thinks he is okay ... and it is just that we , for some reason, think he is fruitcake ... when no one else does

eye yi yi yiyi !

Good thing only my world view is too alien for him then I suppose ................. otherwise.........

Ohh wait

[psyche101]

[now this site is going in circles .... thats 3 posts the same ]

[Mr Walker]

name='psyche101' timestamp='1452134754' post='5736090'

That sounds fair and mutual.

it is the nature of humanity

It is not only unbelievable to me, it is unbelievable to any rational mind, the only people who can discuss a physical God that they meet in their backyard tend to be "getting help" or need it. It is more than unbelievable, it is irrational, it defies all we know, even the Bible, where God was constructed. See Exodus 33:20.

But this is really just prejudice.

For example it is NOT unbelievable to an intelligent, rational man, who has met god. It only seems unbelievable if you disbelieve in the existence of a physical god.

Do you find it irrational when a person claims to have met an alien being?

The bible is not definitive on the nature of god Not suprising given the variety of writers who composed it. I can assure you god CAN manifest in any form it choses to and have the sort of conversations described by people in the bible . it takes a bit of getting used to .

Do you know what Wahhabism is? Fundamental Islam. Ever seen the ABC documentary "Jihad Sheilas"? I have posted it a few times - that is Wahhabism. Those twisted sick women are Wahhabi. And in your country. You may not have met them, but I assure you, they exist. Go have a look for yourself.

A population of Fundamentalists that comprise of around 4.5 million people according to estimates, then we have about 48,000 Muslims in general society that support terrorist ideals. Ands out of that, overall 1.6 billion claim to represent the faith.

That is not all by a long shot, it is a significant count and one to be concerned about, and that which you seem to be blissfully unaware of.

No one could be unaware of the dangers of radical islam But this is the religion of a few. They pose no real danger either to nations or the world which is why they have to resort to individual and senseless acts of terrorism which kill and maim individuals but achieve nothing practical. Most Muslims, like most Christians, just want to get on with life, raise their kids live in a safe world have enough money to get by, and be happy. Only if /when religion defines your life, CAN you become a danger to others.

Do you tell them you have chats with God in your backyard?

Or wander the Solar System with Aliens at night?

Or sleep with triple breasted women?

I was just discussing these things the other night Most people see it a s a joke but not as a threat . They can see i am totally sane and normal.

i dont discuss religion, politics, my favourite sexual positions etc with general members of the community except where appropriate and consensual.

There are a surprising number of people with very similar experiences to my own and even the professionals (psychologists psychiatrists and neuro surgeons) i have spoken with dont discount or ridicule those experiences. They hear them from many people.

WOW - Religion is supposed to teach you how to both avoid this way of life, and assist those drowning in it!!

What do you do at your Church? Play Scrabble? The Church has DEEPLY let you down here, as compassion is supposed to be a main tenet of the Christian relgion!!! You should be up to speed on all of the above, and understand how people fall into these traps so you can help them out of it, and show them a better way.

The one thing relgion is supposed to teach you is to Understand. Yet here you admit that is simply not the case. What's the point of it then? So you can present yourself to the God you want to exist?

Thank Goodness that your church does not run Rosies!!!

i dont understand this response. I don't go to any church or follow any religion .

My not understanding people needing relgion and faith is really quite simple, Science well outdoes it, and answers the questions relgion cannot, and proves that relgion pretty much got HIstory 100% entirely wrong. It is flawed, and proven so. Despite zealots with a superior attitude I understand relgion quite well thanks to my Mother and Father. And spent years immersed in it. Thing is I read too. That upsets the balance relgion prefers.

But you "just do not get it" with those aspects you say.

i get it. i was raised an athiest, and remained one until god physically forced his presence on me. You are in some form of rebellion perhaps When i had a triple by pass i relied on the competence of my surgeons and medical technology BUT, as well, god gave me things they could not he gave me comfort kept He me from being lonely. I was 400 miles from the nearest friend, colleague or family member but god was literally right alongside me the whole time. ) he kept me form being afraid or worried, took away much of the pain of the operation and he sent an angel to speak with me and reassure me. You see i have the best of BOTH worlds, not just half.

What bearing do you feel this has? Many in Academia follow the same ideology, in fact about 700 people hold a postgraduate degree in a recognized area of science yet conform to creationism, if they wish to live a contradiction, that is their choice, that is what God is, not a real thing, a choice.

My point was simple, that intelligence and eduction do not affect belief because belief is not dependent on either

Ive managed to lose the last bit of your post But basically Australia is different because of different socio economic realities Here people send kids to private schools to get an advantage in life Most of the the schools teach a religious message, hence many but not all, of the most privileged wealthy and powerful /successful people e in Australia are believers. There is no division of state from religion, and religion, while not championed, is not put down by intellectuals as it is in america. Religion here is a part of a social doctrine and obligation and there is almost nO creationist element to it. most religious people are evolutionists. and reconcile science and religious responsibilities

religious schools give excellent educations and produce the top graduates in science maths and languages almost every year MAny ordinary working class families sacrifice a lot to get their kids such an eduction. iironically many are atheists but the kids come out with a greater attachment to religious based ethics and moralities and social doctrines of community compassion and responsibility to others. .

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Ok, first off, I tried keeping up in the reading of this thread while on break at work. But other than liking some posts, there is so much I can do. So, I waited to come home to post, and boy this thread went far ahead.

Well, here's so far I wanted to reply.

I will read more soon.

But here's what I have so far.

No it doesnt ... so start backpeddling

That in no way supports what you are saying .... that a child, with no other influences on them will create a 'mysterious agent ' .

Anyone that has anything to do with a baby knows it is cognizant before it has learned language , and it has been long theorised that pre-birth children are reactive to the world outside the womb ..... even if both of these are accepted , it no way proves your 'inbuilt mysterious agent' .

I thought pretty much the link to the site I referenced just explains infants having the ability to learn outside of birth. Nothing says anything about coming up with it, within the womb. I even tried to find any sites about that, and couldn't come up with any.

The results of belief is the actions we take. Out of faith and dedication we act. For myself and perhaps only myself. I know that I will succeed because I have the belief that I can, and the will to carry it out. I don't put stock into empty faith (god/s/ess's). I would rather say that I can than pray that I could. Even when life is at it's harshest to me, I know that there is always a tomorrow. That I can make each day greater than the last. I need no faith nor belief in a supernatural being to do this. Do I hate god? No. Do I hate religion? No. What I detest is what people do in the name of their religion and do because they think they know god's will.

When it comes to natural belief, it does not exist. It has to be influenced. A child might form a belief based upon their own experiences. Yet other people influence those children. I've spent years teaching my children to believe in themselves. I tell them "If you believe you can do it (achieve it), make the honest effort to do so. Only then will you know.". I've seen them achieve a great many things.

If having faith in a god and prayer works for you so be it. Just don't be a prick about it. Your faith is one of many and it would be intelligent of you to acknowledge it. So people have the strength to stand without having a god.

I think that is how I always have been.

If a good example or examples we can use to prove the rest of our points, is probably me and my children. I was born into a family, by that time, there was no references to religion. So, I pretty much didn't think God or what ever. I would gradually become known to religion from venturing outside, and getting to know other people. Of course, by that time, I already have had it my mind what makes sense to me.

Then my kids were born to parents who pretty much were secular. Well acted secular, ( my faith was within me, if that makes sense. ) And so they ended up becoming Atheists, because it made sense to them.

[back to earth]

Done deal, but I might have to visit in the meantime with those pics, is that Lennox?

Certainly ! (PM me for details )

Its Bellinger Valley and Dorrigo world heritage park

http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/dorrigo-national-park

come on a sunday come to my church ;

have to baptise you first though ;

[Mr Walker]

That happens to be the story of mankind as well and why relgion is now redundant - so you see as as children that will never grow up? Maybe you should change you nick from Mr Walker to Peter Pan?

there is an evolved purpose to this. Used properly and with intelligence it will enable humans to grow in wisdom as well as knowledge MAny religions are really the ONLY widespread source of positive human moralities and ethics, and belief remains the oNLy effective driver of behaviour The best response is to direct and channel these beliefs more positively and constructively Humans cannot live without beliefs and faith, and will never do so, or they would not be human.

[back to earth]

This I GOTTA see.

Proof?

he can proove it to himself ... and that should be good enough for you

The last time he tried to prove his powers here ... do you know what happened ?

he couldnt do it .... but then I proved his own 'power' by me doing what he couldnt do himself . It was all rather entertaining

I dont think he ever posted in that forum again (science and technology ) now he sticks to religion .... for some reason .

{ The thing is , I too am a God like, near super human ... its just that I dont boast or have arrogance about it ... well, not usually

[+Link of Hyrule]

Certainly ! (PM me for details )

Its Bellinger Valley and Dorrigo world heritage park

http://www.nationalp...o-national-park

come on a sunday come to my church ;

have to baptise you first though ;

Maybe I'll join you one day. The Nambucca Valley is just a short skip and a jump from Dorrigo (the earlier picture you linked to the waterfall down the walk at the National Park, breathtaking when I walked it a few months ago).

[Mr Walker]

This I GOTTA see.

Proof?

Na i just have knowledge and evidences There is some contextual proof in that iI talked to peole about wha ti saw and described it, BEFORE thety were discovered by space craft. For example i flew through the planetary rings of saturn at a time when science thought they were kilometres thick and found they wer only a few metres thick. i rested on an asteriod s whose surface looked JUST like that photographed in the recent landing. i overflew active geysers on a number of planetary moons in the late 50s/early 60s These weren't discovered by science until decades later but i was describing them as what i had see in my "dreams" when i was a pre teenager . I noticed what are now known as the oort clouds, including one right outside the solar system . I talked to other people about these "dreams" describing wha ti had seen. but no one realised they were accurate.

When carl sagans cosmos first aired on TV i did a running commentary to my wife explaining what would be shown, before it appeared, because i had been there, seen that "in person"

Of course until the discoveries were confirmed i could not claim knowledge, only that i had seen these things in my travels. In a sense i came to KNOW my projection of consciousness was real and not a dream, ONLY when these confirmations occurred, piece by piece. The last piece was the giant ice block mountains around an old impact crater on Pluto, where ice is pushed up in pressure ridges. In my "dreams they looked just like the photos emerging now, and much like superman's fortress of solitude in the arctic. as constructed for some of those films.

Now all science has to find is the 'stargate" or wormhole which exists outside the last oort cloud, somewhere on the planetary axis of the solar system. Visually it looks just like a shimmering distortion in space, like ripples on still water and will be quite hard to find, unless it is emitting some form of radiation, which i did not sense at all. .

[Mr Walker]

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then why have you quoted faulty research above to make your point " Two-year-olds do not have enough information about the world yet to draw reasonable conclusions. " ?

why do you believe this is faulty?

it is self evident that we can only make logical factual conclusions if we have both sufficient data AND sufficient experience of alternatives in order to make those decisions. Two year olds lack both information and comparative experiences. There is quite a bit of evidence that even much older children struggle to do so.

[back to earth]

Doesn't EVERYTHING that influences the development of a child occur through external influences?

Thank you !

influence (n.) late 14c., an astrological term, "streaming ethereal power from the stars when in certain positions, acting upon character or destiny of men," from Old French influence "emanation from the stars that acts upon one's character and destiny" (13c.), also "a flow of water, a flowing in," from Medieval Latininfluentia "a flowing in" (also used in the astrological sense), from Latin influentem (nominative influens), present participle of influere "to flow into, stream in, pour in," from in- "into, in, on, upon" (see in- (2)) + fluere "to flow" (see fluent). Walker postulates that a child seeing something suddenly appear, with no obvious cause , will postulate an 'unseen (or mysterious ) agent ) responsible ... (brilliant that ... but lets move on ) . It wont have the form of a Christian or Hindu God or Santa ... but it will be somehow God like ... or Santa like . ... without the influence of another . Then as the child receives influence from anothe it will form that belief more according to the influence ... like God or Santa ... even though they had that in the fist place . So what we have basically, a self generated influence .

or should I say ;

[Mr Walker]

he can proove it to himself ... and that should be good enough for you

The last time he tried to prove his powers here ... do you know what happened ?

he couldnt do it .... but then I proved his own 'power' by me doing what he couldnt do himself . It was all rather entertaining

I dont think he ever posted in that forum again (science and technology ) now he sticks to religion .... for some reason .

{ The thing is , I too am a God like, near super human ... its just that I dont boast or have arrogance about it ... well, not usually

As usual you have it wrong I got HALF the question right. And i had already explained i didn't do that sort of challenge but would do so for you to humour you. We agreed that your question ( about a jet fighter) was based on a mutual advertisement appearing on our computer screens not on any psychic ability, and i have never posted much outside the these two sections Some in the psychology ad supernatural sections I think that post was shifted from, or into, this section.

if you are a god or superhuman then telling us would not be boasting, but simply telling a truth. NOT telling us would be lying by omission. .

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Any spiritual belief that is taken seriously by idiots is a dangerous weapon. It's the serious ones that cause trouble. I find that those with casual faith who hold their belief with just enough security are more lax in their lives. They don't pass judgment, nothing shakes their faith except themselves. Why so serious? That's the question. If all it takes is faith then that's all you truly need. To believe. It doesn't matter how you pray or how much you pray. What matters is how you present your faith. Good or Evil?

Nicely said, Xeno!

Depends on the belief. If you believe you can do 100 consecutive push-ups. That's a belief that can be proven or disproven. If you believe a magic man in the sky grants your prayer request, then that has no connection with reality outside of your own perception of it.

I'm going to assume by your edit that you're finding a way to prove that you are right? Let's just say that some people never outgrow magical thinking. It's the reason people pray, cast spells, and do funny rituals. Sure those actions have a influential effect on the psyche. Especially if it's based on symbolism. The stronger the emotional value you put into such action the greater the growth potential such thoughts have in the deep mind.

Like a mustard seed, a small amount of belief/faith can grown with every ounce of confirmation bias. Each success fueling the dopamine god. People still go with the sympathetic magick, thinking that if they have their lucky shirt all will be well. Simple associations. Magick taught me a lot about the mind.

Beliefs are a double edged sword that's razor sharp. One side can produce brilliant people, the other side can produce dangerous individuals. Some of them are fueled by the dopamine god. Doesn't matter the name or the belief system, it's the same god. (holy hell that's a revelation)

Again, nicely said.

I like to think, I have had that type of thinking through out my life. I'm just wondering, if it, partnering with logic and what one sees in reality, and thus have an adventurous life.

Just idly thinking, that's all.

And that shows us to me more like America than our founders - Britain, whom I loudly applaud!!! Yet Bush the Bigot said that Atheists are not regarded as citizens!!!!!!!!

Not that I don't agree with you, I do. But I believe that was Bush senior who said that. The one term Bush, not his two term son, Bush.

Then again, two termer did get sayings and books named after him.

"Bushism".

Yeah, I do think you have a point.

Ah, now I see where you are getting all your odd ideas.

I don't find them fascinating, I find them disturbing. It seems like you are looking to find ways to indoctrinate by preying on kids. That they are so young it so unethical to me to look for ways to capitalize on God and call it education. I'd feel the same way if it was atheists doing this.

Two of my sons on their own have chosen to walk paths that include a belief in God at this point, this was their decision as adults not mine, and it should not be mine, I made a point not unlike Psyche to avoid imposing my ideas about God or politics onto my kids. I think it is amoral behavior.

I can't think of a good reason to strip my child of their right to critically think; I will not advocate any dogma that seeks to do this either.

It sounds to me the equivalence of creationism, evolution is not liked by the religious so they make up their own ideas. This sounds the same they don't like Piaget's theories on how kids think so they make up new ones.

I am thinking you live in a very religious area like our Bible Belt here, You even posted that the majority of people in your area are fundies.

From my perspective, I live in a diverse metropolis ( millions of people) from all walks of life and what is happening is not a spiritual crisis, but people coming together regardless of the path they walk. We are working on tolerance and unity and celebrating difference not trying to force God on each other. I am staying on that path. We teach about the various religions in public school, and are one of the few if not only states doing this we do not teach that there is a god or there is not a god we teach what different faiths believe and how to respect each other.

What I have always been thankful for with my family, is that they allowed us to be us to do the things, feel the things, and express the things we are.

And myself, and my husband practiced that on our kids. They became who they are all by themselves. And if I don't see them doing incredible things.

The greatest love a parent gives a child, is letting them be themselves and thinking for themselves. That's my feeling on that, and I stand by that by my own experiences as a parent.

Now, if cloistering to close to a little one to shape them the way someone else wants them to be is making them a living ticking time bomb. I feel.

Doesn't EVERYTHING that influences the development of a child occur through external influences?

One would think so. *shrugs*