The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

[back to earth 23,454]

Speaking with my psychologists hat on, perhaps that is part of the problem.

certainly .... thinking that you can put on a psychologist's hat is indeed a big part of your problem !

Edited January 6, 2016 by back to earth

[back to earth 23,454]

No. I am sure sherapy meant her sister is incredibly attractive and intelligent.

Well, its hard to see how you really look ... with all that stalkers gear on ... so how would she know ?

[psyche101 44,336]

If your beliefs make you comfortable who am i to deny them

That would be difficult since they are based on observations of your behaviour.

Belief is redundant for me. I know a powerful god so I don't need belief But as a student of childhood cognitive development, the nature of human belief has always fascinated me Showing the evolved propensity for humans to believe in magical agents doesn't further an argument for the existence of god, rather the opposite, so I cant understand why people would think i can use it like that as a argument for gods.

Explain then why my son, given the choice of a religious environment chose a secular one for high school.

I sent both my children to a eccumenical school without indoctrination, and gave them the benefit of a full understanding of evolution and life processes. My son concluded God was about as real as the Easter Bunny.

That is one child who overcame the ideals of belief all by himself, and I could not be prouder. How does that reinforce a notion that belief is a natural aspect of development, and how does that pertain to the existence of any perceived God?

You really do yourself no favours when you make these claims about knowing God, and having backyard chats with him, nobody believes you, nobody thinks for one second that is happening, what you are doing is turning others away from relgion like that, as nobody wants to end up in that fantasy world. All it indicates is that after a lifetime of sacrificing yourself to indoctrination that one eventually loses touch with reality.

. BUT the medical and sceintific evdence for the benefits of belief to human beings is overwhelming and indisputable. it appears it is an evolutionary benefit connected into our bio chemical systems due to our self aware nature which affects our body and mind eg we feel guilt we certe feed back iia our consciences, we get lonely, we get depressed by other than chemical causes. We have greater fear and the medical consequences of fear because we r are cognitively awre of so many dangers. For example just believing in a god can reduce your blood pressure, stress etc and reduce depression. In turn this reduces strokes and cardio vascular disease etc. So for me, as a logical thinker, if we did not already construct beliefs in gods we should learn to do so, for the benefit of our health.

It is very disputable amongst neurosciences. From the cradle to the grave.

LINK - Relationships of Physical Activity to Brain Health and the Academic Performance of Schoolchildren

LINK - A Review of the Effects of Physical Activity and Exercise on Cognitive and Brain Functions in Older Adults

Doing things that you enjoy, things that make you feel good (like pretending an all powerful being is watching over you personally, which must mean one is uber important!) the false promises relgion offers can make people feel at ease and reduce stress, until the problem arises yet again.

Put simply:

Learning in this way to believe, we could cut out al the associated crap and destructive elements which have evolved within established religions. Faith is evolved to be an Individual connection between the conscious self awareness of one human being and their perception of god(s) it requires no religious trappings. Those come from other human needs like the desire to belong to a group and the attraction of routines, ceremonies and fancy dresses.

And if we skip belief and go straight to following the evidence we go that step further and actually better the worlds, instead of convincing ourselves that we do. The people of ISIS believe they are following God's will and are cleansing the earth of all that offends God. What is destructive is relgion, young girls being made many promises in good faith, only to find themselves ISIS sex gifts for the last few weeks of their short lives. Faith in some BS afterlife, it's all false promises which may comfort some for a short time, but so do drugs. Religion impoverishes society, and that is anything but giving.

Hell, community was the biggest gift relgion ever gave mankind, then it splintered it. Nothing wrong with groups., with groups come combined knowledge and strength.

[Sherapy 31,567]

Speaking with my psychologists hat on, perhaps that is part of the problem.

your sister is like this ?

Sad to say yes.

The difference is she is in therapy. Thank goodness.

[back to earth 23,454]

Go argue with a cultural anthropologist or psychologist They are the experts i got this from.

No, you got it from misinterpreting the evidence . Clan extensions are a valid cultural anthropological subject .... I learnt about them studying anthropology , I dont need to argue with your source ... for about the 8th time, from at least half a dozen people .... you are interpreting the evidence wrong to try and get it suit your own prejudices.

Even PA told you that ... and he certainly aint in cahoots with me !

[back to earth 23,454]

Sad to say yes.

The difference is she is in therapy. Thank goodness.

Is she allowed to use the internet in there ?

[Sherapy 31,567]

Is she allowed to use the internet in there ?

No, ha ha ha ha ha

[Sherapy 31,567]

No, you got it from misinterpreting the evidence . Clan extensions are a valid cultural anthropological subject .... I learnt about them studying anthropology , I dont need to argue with your source ... for about the 8th time, from at least half a dozen people .... you are interpreting the evidence wrong to try and get it suit your own prejudices.

Even PA told you that ... and he certainly aint in cahoots with me !

Exactly! It's MW's views.

Nothing else.

Last night he was a philosophical expert who suddenly went quiet, he was also the anthropologist till Imaginary number **** that down. Tonight he is the psychologist, tommorow he will be the historian and on it goes.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Sherapy

[back to earth 23,454]

This evidence shows green is not a colour

http://www.huevaluechroma.com/062.php

Dont argue with me ... take it up with the experts in the link I posted to prove my ideas are facts !

[Sherapy 31,567]

This evidence shows green is not a colour

http://www.huevaluechroma.com/062.php

Dont argue with me ... take it up with the experts in the link I posted to prove my ideas are facts !

Ha ha ha ha ha good one!

[Mr Walker 6,726]

Not at all, you just overthink things all the time, that is how the flaws in your arguments become blatant to be frank.

Of they are individual, why are they all quoting the same violent verses? There are quite a few, one would think if individuality had say here that certain verses would appeal to certain understandings, and we would get an array of violent verses when Islamic Terrorists slaughter innocents randomly, but we do not, we hear the same crap over and again.

And if that is one book full of violence, that is how you will be influenced. Many Middle Eastern are illiterate and have the Koran read to them. They do not have a choice at all, they are simply indoctrinated as violent people from the moment they can understand that book being read to them. Processing is done for them, relgion turning men into mindless killing machines.

He is a most excellent person with a sound understanding of his faith. He can also talk about life in general without debate, and is a very pleasant fellow, we had coffee just before Christmas.

Only fundamentalists insist on taking the Bible's literally, that is why Westboro stand out amongst Christians. Christianity matured, so we see very little moronic acts of faith like the AOG or Westboro. Islam did not, so we see radicals slaughtering people for 11th century ideals every other week. That alone shows the faiths and indoctrination heavily influence the person.

That is not going to happen when it is forced upon one from birth. That indoctrination steals that process of thought from us and replaces it with what certain authorities want you to think. That is how God remains in these times, when rationally, he should not.

Look, with all due respect, I just cannot discuss God or your understanding of that ideal at all. As you feel God visits you and speaks to you, I almost feel I have an unfair advantage here. What you need is a shrink, with all due respect, anyone who says God appears in their backyard for chats, before taking off through the solar system for a jaunt with Aliens does.

You try to push God, that is damaging although you just refuse to believe it.

You mean some people are honest, and some do not play by a book of rules. There is no moral code, we are what we are and have to abide by each other in society, we do not get a choice there.

All I can say of the evidence of my life says God is just imagination, which explains what the smart guys like Darwin have been trying to point out for some time now. Your backyard chats with God enforce my Atheism as it shows just how far belief can remove one from reality. You living your life as you do, turn people away from relgion. You might have noticed by now that most posters seem to see you are pretty darn whacky, if that is what relgion does to a person I doubt many want a part of it.

And yet they still not only convince millions of people, but also incite thousands to fight some religious war for an imaginary being.

Remember Anthony Mundine's stupid remarks about 911? And he was raised by indigenous parents and played footy. Look at the clown now.

your world view is too alien for me to have a reasonable discussion with you That is not meant to be a criticism of you. My own world view is also unusual and contributes to the difficulty.

But for examole I have been given a clean bill of health and i KNOW my relationship with god is a physical one, where god exists as part of the external landscape, not within my mind.

Because this is unbelievable to you, we cannot have any form of understanding. You are forced to assume and attribute motivations etc to me which simply do not exist.

I do not know how to respond to such a pessimistic, and in my view false, way of seeing the world There are actually very few Muslims who are zealots and haters and far fewer who want to kill all non Muslims It is not even an anti Christian thing. Sunnis and shias kil far more of each other than they do of non believers.

My way of life only turns away a few people on UM. In real life my wife and i are loved, respected, and cared for/about, by many many people, because of who and what we are and how we live.

This includes non Christians and atheists who see our role in the community and with our family. Our honesty, integrity, and care for others, our ability to fit in, be positive, and put others first, brings a good relationship with our communities.

You cant understand people who 'need" religion or belief.

I cant understand people who feel a need to smoke or drink or take drugs. To me they are "wacky "

i don't understand people who think they can be happy through materialism, greed, lust and pleasure. iI just doesn't work, as the rates of suicide and depression as well as the general malaise of a lack of joy and pleasure in rich materialist societies demonstrates.

i cant comprehend people who need friends so badly they do hurtful, harmful, or silly things, to win and keep friends, or to whom being popular is more important than doing right.

I cant understand people who waste their lives and their human potentials and are never challenged to be all they can be.

I cant understand people who feel lonely or cut off from others.

i cant understand people who feel unworthy, ashamed, or less than other people.

I cant understand those who then feel the need to put down others, or try to drag them down into their own slough of misery and despondency/despair.

These are the incomprehensible things to me. Not people's need for faith, belief, and ritual

Of course some smart people like top neuro surgeon, and Presidential candidate, Ben Carson, also happen to have an unshakeable faith in god. .

Intelligence is no barrier to faith Australia is a bit different to america.

In Australia the better educated you are the more religious you tend to be, according to statistics. and most of the top level of society went to school through private often religious based schools, rather than government ones.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Mr Walker

[Sherapy 31,567]

What ????

I already wrote that above. How many people does it need to tell you you need help ... all in a row ... one after the other ?

http://ora.ox.ac.uk/search/detailed?q=fullname:%22Emily%20Rachel%20Reed%20%20Burdett%22

And here we have it children get their concepts of God and other supernatural things via a predisposition to teleological type thinking and specific cultural learning ( parents, traditions, teachings ).

The big aha moment is some kids anthropomorphize a god while some may can grasp God as a concept. It seems there was a difference between British and Israelian kids.

"...children acquire cultural concepts through early developing cognitive mechanisms combined with specific cultural learning. An understudied area of cultural acquisition is children’s understanding of non-human minds, such as God. This thesis gives evidence that young children need not anthropomorphize non-human minds in order to understand them. Instead, children have a general “theory of mind” that is tailo ..."

Edited January 6, 2016 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker 6,726]

http://ora.ox.ac.uk/... Reed Burdett"

And here we have it children get their concepts of God via a predisposition to teleological type thinking and specific cultural learning.

The big aha moment is some kids anthropomorphize a god and some can grasp God as a conception. That is the thesis being argued. But there is it enough done in this this area to establish it as a theory.

"...children acquire cultural concepts through early developing cognitive mechanisms combined with specific cultural learning. An understudied area of cultural acquisition is children’s understanding of non-human minds, such as God. This thesis gives evidence that young children need not anthropomorphize non-human minds in order to understand them. Instead, children have a general “theory of mind” that is tailo ..."

Ummm! That is precisely what i have been arguing.

First, that developing cognitive mechanisms cause children to construct their own god constructs well before they can learn them from others, and second, that as they learn language and exchange ideas, they THEN develop specific cultural learning, and so their individual belief in gods becomes their parent' s belief or another strong cultural belief.

What do you THINK i have been arguing, Sherapy.?

The rest is a discussion of two theories about whether children always create anthropomorphic gods Ie attribute their own qualities of mind to gods or create individual qualities of minds specific to gods and attach those to their god constructs.

[Sherapy 31,567]

Not at all, you just overthink things all the time, that is how the flaws in your arguments become blatant to be frank.

Of they are individual, why are they all quoting the same violent verses? There are quite a few, one would think if individuality had say here that certain verses would appeal to certain understandings, and we would get an array of violent verses when Islamic Terrorists slaughter innocents randomly, but we do not, we hear the same crap over and again.

And if that is one book full of violence, that is how you will be influenced. Many Middle Eastern are illiterate and have the Koran read to them. They do not have a choice at all, they are simply indoctrinated as violent people from the moment they can understand that book being read to them. Processing is done for them, relgion turning men into mindless killing machines.

He is a most excellent person with a sound understanding of his faith. He can also talk about life in general without debate, and is a very pleasant fellow, we had coffee just before Christmas.

Only fundamentalists insist on taking the Bible's literally, that is why Westboro stand out amongst Christians. Christianity matured, so we see very little moronic acts of faith like the AOG or Westboro. Islam did not, so we see radicals slaughtering people for 11th century ideals every other week. That alone shows the faiths and indoctrination heavily influence the person.

That is not going to happen when it is forced upon one from birth. That indoctrination steals that process of thought from us and replaces it with what certain authorities want you to think. That is how God remains in these times, when rationally, he should not.

Look, with all due respect, I just cannot discuss God or your understanding of that ideal at all. As you feel God visits you and speaks to you, I almost feel I have an unfair advantage here. What you need is a shrink, with all due respect, anyone who says God appears in their backyard for chats, before taking off through the solar system for a jaunt with Aliens does.

You try to push God, that is damaging although you just refuse to believe it.

You mean some people are honest, and some do not play by a book of rules. There is no moral code, we are what we are and have to abide by each other in society, we do not get a choice there.

All I can say of the evidence of my life says God is just imagination, which explains what the smart guys like Darwin have been trying to point out for some time now. Your backyard chats with God enforce my Atheism as it shows just how far belief can remove one from reality. You living your life as you do, turn people away from relgion. You might have noticed by now that most posters seem to see you are pretty darn whacky, if that is what relgion does to a person I doubt many want a part of it.

And yet they still not only convince millions of people, but also incite thousands to fight some religious war for an imaginary being.

Remember Anthony Mundine's stupid remarks about 911? And he was raised by indigenous parents and played footy. Look at the clown now.

You met Robbie!!!!

He is a great person, while I have not met him. He has graciously opened his home to my hubby and I in the event hubby and I come to Australia and we are considering it. And if I do I would love to meet you and BTE!!!!

Edited January 6, 2016 by Sherapy

[Sherapy 31,567]

Ummm! That is precisely what i have been arguing.

First, that developing cognitive mechanisms cause children to construct their own god constructs well before they can learn them from others, and second, that as they learn language and exchange ideas, they THEN develop specific cultural learning, and so their individual belief in gods becomes their parent' s belief or another strong cultural belief.

What do you THINK i have been arguing, Sherapy.?

The rest is a discussion of two theories about whether children always create anthropomorphic gods Ie attribute their own qualities of mind to gods or create individual qualities of minds specific to gods and attach those to their god constructs.

No, you are not you have been arguing and are still arguing that kids come up with their own constructs of God, regardless independent of their enviornment, traditions, and cultural teachings.

This is your error.

Kids can anthropomorphize God ( and all kinds of things ) and maybe conceptualize God ( yet the studies at this time are not that conclusive) nevertheless the god they anthromorphize or conceptualize will still be in line with the teachings of their parents and environment.

It helps to think of nature and nurture how both work in tandem to develop the human being. This study is saying the same thing.

For example: your example was that a kid will magically come up with Santa all on their own just by seeing presents under the tree, you are trying to claim that this is inherent and happens without teaching them.

For example: My oldest son was not exposed to Santa and the presents under the tree were from his parents (he was taught this) and when asked who brought the presents he said mommy and daddy as this was within our traditions and teachings.

Another example: My good friend is Jewish his kids never heard of Santa and didn't come up with him either, nor did they know there is a Christian God, they only knew of God as they had been taught that is until they started spending time with their friends of other faiths, traditions, and families.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Sherapy

[psyche101 44,336]

Did you see the news last night ? The new Walker (segway) 'hoverboards' burst into flames ... sometimes just sitting there ... sometimes when being used and sometimes when recharging ... one burnt a house down last night .

The Walker one has been 'recalled' ... we can live in hope I suppose ?

[Sherapy 31,567]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....

[psyche101 44,336]

You met Robbie!!!!

He is a great person, while I have not met him. He has graciously opened his home to my hubby and I in the event hubby and I come to Australia and we are considering it. And if I do I would love to meet you and BTE!!!!

Just about to head out, would be my honor to meet you lovely lady ands the great man who was smart enough to land you!! I am on the East Coast.

Yeah, PA is great, and so is Annie is dog, so very much like my Betty Had a very pleasant chat, look forward to another. Bit rushed, I scooted out from work for a bit for a coffee, but it was a good afternoon. I rather enjoyed slowing down for a bit.

One thing I will let out is PA has the most striking blue eyes I have seen iong a long time. Steel blue, I hope he works things out with the missus and the church, it is a duty to pass those genes on!!

[Stubbly_Dooright 14,536]

Trying to doge a bullet by typical obfuscation ... the pictures are related to your statement

Mr Walker, on 05 January 2016 - 09:28 PM, said:

. No other animals share this understanding of a common internal belief, and thus remain separated by evolved biological drivers into small groups.

or is it your 'correct' sentence structure again ..... and you are saying people remain separated into small groups ?

Well, that depends. There were in the school grew up in. Man, it was so clique related. In fact, my friends and I had our own clique. The anti-clique clique.

I guess, you can say, we evolved............... from evolving!

MW there is no way to tell if a child under three constructs their own god, they can't take multiple choice tests or understand the material enough to address the questions, not to mention they typically don't remember what they thought at 1 or 2 years old.

This is absurd, at best one can say that kids do believe anything they are told and it is reinforced by their parents and their culture and their traditions. How can you come up with a study that will get inside the kids head at 2? How can you possibly separate culture and parents from their kids to determine this. Come on you need to think a bit more.

And, Nonsense you are not a specialist in children's cognitive development, who do you think you are fooling?

Excellent questions that makes good points right there.

No, you are not you have been arguing and are still arguing that kids come up with their own constructs of God, regardless independent of their enviornment, traditions, and cultural teachings.

This is your error.

Kids can anthropomorphize God ( and all kinds of things ) and maybe conceptualize God ( yet the studies at this time are not that conclusive) nevertheless the god they anthromorphize or conceptualize will still be in line with the teachings of their parents and environment.

It helps to think of nature and nurture how both work in tandem to develop the human being. This study is saying the same thing.

For example: your example was that a kid will magically come up with Santa all on their own just by seeing presents under the tree, you are trying to claim that this is inherent and happens without teaching them.

For example: My oldest son was not exposed to Santa and the presents under the tree were from his parents (he was taught this) and when asked who brought the presents he said mommy and daddy as this was within our traditions and teachings.

Another example: My good friend is Jewish his kids never heard of Santa and didn't come up with him either, nor did they know there is a Christian God, they only knew of God as they had been taught that is until they started spending time with their friends of other faiths, traditions, and families.

I wonder if this link to this site and it's information might help back you up.

It was once believed that infants lacked the ability to think or form complex ideas and remained without cognition until they learned language. It is now known that babies are aware of their surroundings and interested in exploration from the time they are born. From birth, babies begin to actively learn. They gather, sort, and process information from around them, using the data to develop perception and thinking skills.

Cognitive development refers to how a person perceives, thinks, and gains understanding of his or her world through the interaction of genetic and learned factors. Among the areas of cognitive development are information processing, intelligence , reasoning, language development , and memory.

Nothing here about having it before birth, or having it to make up something that wasn't there to begin with.

http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Cognitive-Development.html

[Sherapy 31,567]

Well, that depends. There were in the school grew up in. Man, it was so clique related. In fact, my friends and I had our own clique. The anti-clique clique.

I guess, you can say, we evolved............... from evolving!

Excellent questions that makes good points right there.

I wonder if this link to this site and it's information might help back you up.

Nothing here about having it before birth, or having it to make up something that wasn't there to begin with.

http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Cognitive-Development.html

Indeed, that is where his bias shows.

[back to earth 23,454]

Exactly! It's MW's views.

Nothing else.

Last night he was a philosophical expert who suddenly went quiet, he was also the anthropologist till Imaginary number **** that down. Tonight he is the psychologist, tommorow he will be the historian and on it goes.

That's the thing about being a 'know-all' ... its a wide field one has to claim expertises in .... but the Emperor's new clothes are pretty obvious ... to all but the Emperor

[back to earth 23,454]

your world view is too alien for me to have a reasonable discussion with you

It never stopped you before .... so I suspect something else is causing you to back out .... hmmmmmm ?

That is not meant to be a criticism of you. My own world view is also unusual and contributes to the difficulty.

But for examole I have been given a clean bill of health and i KNOW my relationship with god is a physical one, where god exists as part of the external landscape, not within my mind.

A clean bill of health has nothing to do with trying to objectify your own subjective beliefs ... that is an essential part of religion and many people with a clean bill of health ascribe to religious beliefs which they claim are objective.

besides , you being the philosopher and logical you claim you are must realise that all supposed observed objective phenomena are observed via your subjective apparatus of sensory awareness ......

bomb philosophy Walker .... remember that ?

Because this is unbelievable to you, we cannot have any form of understanding. You are forced to assume and attribute motivations etc to me which simply do not exist.

I do not know how to respond to such a pessimistic, and in my view false, way of seeing the world There are actually very few Muslims who are zealots and haters and far fewer who want to kill all non Muslims It is not even an anti Christian thing. Sunnis and shias kil far more of each other than they do of non believers.

My way of life only turns away a few people on UM. In real life my wife and i are loved, respected, and cared for/about, by many many people, because of who and what we are and how we live.

Unlike you, we do not assume beyond our experience , and to affirm yet again .... this is an internet forum ... written insistence of ones own stories has no value whatsoever . I can insist every person I know and meet declares I never make a mistake .... words are cheap. All we can judge on here is a person's record, history and any internal consistencies within what they write . That's why you have such a bad track record here with so many people .

This includes non Christians and atheists who see our role in the community and with our family. Our honesty, integrity, and care for others, our ability to fit in, be positive, and put others first, brings a good relationship with our communities.

You cant understand people who 'need" religion or belief.

I cant understand people who feel a need to smoke or drink or take drugs. To me they are "wacky "

Here we go ..... another list of , not accusations, as Walker would never do that

but he will mention all this stuff as response to psyche 101 .... but , of course, he is not referring to him .....

i don't understand people who think they can be happy through materialism, greed, lust and pleasure. iI just doesn't work, as the rates of suicide and depression as well as the general malaise of a lack of joy and pleasure in rich materialist societies demonstrates.

i cant comprehend people who need friends so badly they do hurtful, harmful, or silly things, to win and keep friends, or to whom being popular is more important than doing right.

I cant understand people who waste their lives and their human potentials and are never challenged to be all they can be.

I cant understand people who feel lonely or cut off from others.

i cant understand people who feel unworthy, ashamed, or less than other people.

I cant understand those who then feel the need to put down others, or try to drag them down into their own slough of misery and despondency/despair.

These are the incomprehensible things to me. Not people's need for faith, belief, and ritual

Of course some smart people like top neuro surgeon, and Presidential candidate, Ben Carson, also happen to have an unshakeable faith in god. .

and many people who dont are very intelligent too ... so your point is ( aside from presenting bias ) ????

It seems clear to me that 'unshakeable belief ' ( which must include unshakeable in the face of reason and facts ... otherwise it would not be unshakeable) is not a symptom of intelligence at all ... but more of an emotive response and perhaps a measure of 'emotional intelligence ' .

Intelligence is no barrier to faith Australia is a bit different to america.

In Australia the better educated you are the more religious you tend to be, according to statistics. and most of the top level of society went to school through private often religious based schools, rather than government ones.

Rubbish !

Unless you are claiming the reverse , that some private religious schools that cost more money and have better resources can create students with better job outcomes. (Just getting in first for your twist of the data )

( Its really the Masons which have the higher intelligence ... as they have the 'top level of society covered' ...... one has to wonder what Walker's 'top level of society' means .....

'religious people' that are 'the top level of society' and highly intelligent .... r i i i g h t !

(site hid photo, click quote to reveal)

Edited January 6, 2016 by back to earth

[back to earth 23,454]

Ummm! That is precisely what i have been arguing.

No it was not ! and it especially was not precisely what you have been arguing !

You tried to remove the " combined with specific cultural learning. " part to claim kids came up with ideas about God and Santa all by themselves !

Now you are trying to say the quote above affirms what you are saying, another example of you not being able to see a statement without converting it to your own ends.

First, that developing cognitive mechanisms cause children to construct their own god constructs well before they can learn them from others, and second, that as they learn language and exchange ideas, they THEN develop specific cultural learning, and so their individual belief in gods becomes their parent' s belief or another strong cultural belief.

Lets find a horse and decide it is made that way to pull a cart in the first place !

[Xeno-Fish 109,485]

The funny thing about these types of threads is that they never have a resolution.

[back to earth 23,454]

You met Robbie!!!!

He is a great person, while I have not met him. He has graciously opened his home to my hubby and I in the event hubby and I come to Australia and we are considering it. And if I do I would love to meet you and BTE!!!!

If you do , I live in the same area as PA ..... , we got beach (sometimes without a single footprint on it, river, mountains, rainforest , world heritage park .....

zooom in to background

looking in;

looking out ;