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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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back to earth

Now THAT would convert me. :D

Not sure into what though.............

The BTE religion of nature ( not worship but ) appreciation .

[ aside from what religion certain other person ascribes to me here , I feel an affinity with the sated aims of life from Zoroastrianism ; the aim of life is to have a good life and enjoy it ( not for fear, guilt, supplication, etc ) ]

Alright to bring tin lids?

If you mean kids ...... certainly ! Its a great place for kids ! Unfortunately we a bit short on them at the moment .

a diversion ...... some years back ; I am driving along an internal road on the property and I see two of the boys , a bout 7 years old, running along the road 'up to something' (I can tell by the look and body language) so I stop and

"Wasup?"

" A snake is chasing us ! "

"What ?"

" A giant black snake, we saw it down the river and we ran away and it chased us all the way up to community house ! "

"What ? All the way from the river, across the bottom flat, over the road , across the front lawn and up to the house ?"

"yeah ... and when I rang my dad ... "

"You stopped at the verandah and used the phone while being chased ?"

"Yeah ! I wanted to ring Dad and tell him ."

"That you being chased by a snake ."

"yeah."

< I look up the road >

" Look out ! Here it comes, Quick, jump in the car ! " (they do and we take off with them kneeling on the back seat looking out the rear window ) " I think he is gaining on us ! "

So now we are zooming across the property at high speed, bouncing all over the place ..... drive up the back hill to their house. They get out and run inside and go to the windows and peer out nervously .

Father ; " Whats going on ?"

Me : We got chased by a black snake ... in the car ... alll the way from the river ! :w00t: "

" Hmmmm .... actually, I wanted to talk to you about some of those stories you have been telling the kids ."

"O - oh "

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back to earth

So no proof at all then, just 20/20 hindsight? Your wife must be an exceptionally wonderful woman to stand by you whilst all this is going on. I hope you appreciate her.

Wormholes now!!

You do realise that according to the calculations by Einstein and Rosen, furthered by Kip Thorne, that a wormhole - if it was found to exist - would be miniscule and last for fractions of a second?

yes, well , he only needs his brain to fit through, remember .

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Davros of Skaro

No, becoming a believer isn't about Biblical evidence first making me believe then having Faith. The opposite is true. Faith caused belief in the Bible.

For me, I have no idea where my Faith came from, it seems to have come pre-installed.

It's been awhile since I posted this so why not? It's a perfect fit.

Dopamine Jackpot! Science of pleasure:

Robert Sapolsky, professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University, compares dopamine levels in monkeys and humans. Sapolsky argues that in both, "Dopamine is not about pleasure, it's about the anticipation of pleasure. It's about the pursuit of happiness." Unlike monkeys however, humans "keep those dopamine levels up for decades and decades waiting for the reward."

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back to earth

x

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Dang you have MW pegged to a t...

And don't forget his wife tells him in a gentle way that his problem is "he doesn't think like anyone else."

Which in wife speak ( the nicer ones, smarter ones ) means shut the frick up, stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself, you need to think more before you talk etc, etc.

And, I am sure Mrs. Walker is careful not to get him to riled up on one of his rants like we deal with here, that is why she has him garden and read books all day, or use his "imagination" to explore it gets him out of her hair and gives him constructive ways to deal with his frustrations, the ones he claims he doesn't have. What he has is a saint of a wife who knows how to re-route him. To bad she is not on here. I think he should be thanking his lucky stars for her.

Yes, I have had similar thoughts .

I hope he doesnt annoy her with all the carrying on here and repeat it all to her ( poor woman ! ) .... I assume he gets told a lot to , get of the computer and go outside and get some fresh air ;)

... actually < looks around > that may well have happened today . (Good day for it, the sun is out, the kookaburras laughing and I am about to drive up the mountain past the waterfalls .... might even drop in for a quick visit to 'church'.

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back to earth

Even though I don't know of this challenge with MW, and I don't need to, I will say this I believe you implicitly not knowing a thing.

I cracked up on your don't try and talk your way out of trouble MW.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the Trailer Park Boys it's a comedy series out of Canada anyways you will appreciate this clip of Ricky (the dumb guy )trying to talk his way out of getting arrested. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Disclaimer:

It has grown up language so be warned if anyone is offended by the F word do not watch this.

:( blocked in my country

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back to earth

It's been awhile since I posted this so why not? It's a perfect fit.

Dopamine Jackpot! Science of pleasure:

Robert Sapolsky, professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University, compares dopamine levels in monkeys and humans. Sapolsky argues that in both, "Dopamine is not about pleasure, it's about the anticipation of pleasure. It's about the pursuit of happiness." Unlike monkeys however, humans "keep those dopamine levels up for decades and decades waiting for the reward."

'Delaying gratification' is a main key principle for healthy psychology :tu:

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Mr Walker

You liar!

The response was "no, nothing like that, I dont know what you are talking about " Shall I go into my PM file and resurrect the conversation with said witness and ask them to post here and affirm that .... that in no way did you even get close !

And now you are claiming to be half right !

You are a joke !

But you did ... and you failed ... not half failed Walker ... you failed !

bull**** It was the other poster saying your alleged powers of being able to psychically see things from a distance and be accurate about it were a croc of **** ... and you volunteered to have a go at it.

We did no such thing and I certainly said no such thing . you are very confused ... or are hoping I am . I never said I could see images you were looking at because I saw them on my screen too .

Oh yeah ... get all logical on me and my God like powers then .

Would you like to see another demo Walker ? One you wont be able to lie about ?

NOT going to continue this with a person I reluctantly now consider a hater, liar and a troll From now on the only time i reply to you is to correct lies you promote. I have had you on ignore for some time but am forced to respond to the personal and vindictive comments you make every day

Could well be confusing you with another conversation, I have had a couple of similar and related ones and if you jumped into such a conversation then quite probably this is correct. but the same deal/ response is applicable. You got from your experiment what you expected and so did i. I continue to help people where i can with a very real and proven abilty to find things. You just radiate negativity, ridicule, and indeed a real personal animosity which i cant understand. Does it come from fear , envy, inner doubt ? Who knows,and I no longer care

Look into your self to find why you are as you are.

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Mr Walker

Growing is wisdom and knowledge makes relgion and belief redundant. That is indeed what has happened already.

It is total nonsense that Humans cannot have morality and ethics without relgion. total nonsense.

No it isnt because morality and ethics, when codified BECOME religion in practice and belief That is how books like the bible evolved When you do something because of an inner value morality or belief you are creating a religious form.

Too many people see all religion as like the christian form but it can be ANY expression of inner belief from gaean to pagan/ druidic.

Even environmentalism is a form of religion if it comes from belief of inner values and not from proven facts and logic. People DO NOT respond best to logic and knowledge. They respond more strongly to belief and emotion because these are INNER drivers . And given we cant eliminate this without changing the nature of cognition the best we can do is shape and form our beliefs into the most constructive ones possible

A good person who ids good because the y believ in goodness is a religous person. it comes as part of th enature of human slef areness in tha t we know good form evil and we now consequence over time Unless we are a socioath we CANNOT act without an inner mental feedback loop sometimes known as a conscience.

Ask your self why murder is wrong. if you eventually come back to a belief driven reason, then you have a form of religious driver. If you come back to a response like its against the law or i might get punished if caught, then you do not have a religious or spiritual based thinking. If your answer is that it is wrong to harm another human being ,take that back further. just WHY do you believe this to be the case.

It i s not so much that only religious people are moral That s not true but morality ethics etc in humans are constructs of self ware belief So is religion, and thus the two are inextricably linked.

A truly religious person (not one who just professes belief) is ALWAYS driven by inner moral and ethical beliefs. A non religious person, or one who only professes belief, MAY have inner belief driven moralities and ethics, but also might not.

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Mr Walker

So no proof at all then, just 20/20 hindsight? Your wife must be an exceptionally wonderful woman to stand by you whilst all this is going on. I hope you appreciate her.

Wormholes now!!

You do realise that according to the calculations by Einstein and Rosen, furthered by Kip Thorne, that a wormhole - if it was found to exist - would be miniscule and last for fractions of a second?

Naturally occurring certainly that is current understanding. Artificially constructed? not so certainly

Again i don't expect belief. i am just responding truthfully to questions. Time will prove me right or wrong i have only used this to project my consciousness through so it might well be very small (there are few reference points in space) I just saw a rippling of the starry back ground entered through it nd came out in another part of the galaxy.

my wife is the most wonderful and beautiful woman in the world She, unlike me is a total believer and has been a fundamentalist creationist christian since she was about 10 years old with a total, absolute, unshakeable belief driven conviction. I disagree with her on this, being an evolutionist, but we rub along.

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Mr Walker

LOL, I picked up on that and was wondering too......

Not responding to bTE so not sure what he is referring to But yes i know you are Australian I just write as i write. There are many readers of any post. There are may different 'Australias " I give my perception understanding and statistically based opinions on it, as on everything.

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Xeno-Fish

13404358_130515143000.jpg

I think someone needs a band-aid for their ego.

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Mr Walker

x

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Dang you have MW pegged to a t...

And don't forget his wife tells him in a gentle way that his problem is "he doesn't think like anyone else."

Which in wife speak ( the nicer ones, smarter ones ) means shut the frick up, stop talking, you are embarrassing yourself, you need to think more before you talk etc, etc.

And, I am sure Mrs. Walker is careful not to get him to riled up on one of his rants like we deal with here, that is why she has him garden and read books all day, or use his "imagination" to explore it gets him out of her hair and gives him constructive ways to deal with his frustrations, the ones he claims he doesn't have. What he has is a saint of a wife who knows how to re-route him. To bad she is not on here. I think he should be thanking his lucky stars for her.

I guess you are just not able to stop yourself making personal judgements based on a total lack of knowledge and understanding. Imagine me posting on PM the problems your husband must have with you, given your perosnality traits and think how you would respond. . It wouldn't occur to me to do that whatever my personal opinion. And if it did i wouldnt do it because it would be rude hurtful and personal You present a nice face sherapy but it is two faced.

Are you seeking approval and validation from others? Why do you need it?. MAybe its a consequence of not being caned enough as a kid and growing up with a lack of respect for others :devil: . yeah that is a deliberate pay back for your comments about my childhood. i might be nice/kind hearted and well mannered, but i wont be bullied or misrepresented.

How about i start posting about how I think your real relationship with your kids and hubbie must be based on your persona on UM. I'd probably be utterly wrong and it would probably hurt you , but heck why should that stop me for a second?

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Xeno-Fish

I don't think you've got enough mind bullets to hurt anyone's self esteem Jonnie Walker. I'd grab a shovel, you've to quite the whole to dig yourself out of. It's okay though, I'll give you a freebie to back track if you'd like.

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Sherapy

I guess you are just not able to stop yourself making personal judgements based on a total lack of knowledge and understanding. Imagine me posting on PM the problems your husband must have with you, given your perosnality traits and think how you would respond. . It wouldn't occur to me to do that whatever my personal opinion. And if it did i wouldnt do it because it would be rude hurtful and personal You present a nice face sherapy but it is two faced.

Are you seeking approval and validation from others? Why do you need it?. MAybe its a consequence of not being caned enough as a kid and growing up with a lack of respect for others :devil: . yeah that is a deliberate pay back for your comments about my childhood. i might be nice/kind hearted and well mannered, but i wont be bullied or misrepresented.

How about i start posting about how I think your real relationship with your kids and hubbie must be based on your persona on UM. I'd probably be utterly wrong and it would probably hurt you , but heck why should that stop me for a second?

Actually, I have drawn off your own testimony, your own posts, I have inferred a picture of you from your posts you remind me of a few characters, Johnny Bravo and Pa Kettle and Rip Van Winkle. This is meant to be light hearted poke fun at you. After all you see yourself as Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes. See your bio!

You also spend many posts bragging about how resilient you are emotionally, in fact you have insisted you have transcended any need to be bothered about anything as you only live in happiness and peace.

A great writer couldn't make you up if they tried, there is no one like you. You need to laugh more and not take yourself so seriously, we all except you are the cat lady down the street, but you are an integral part of our group.

My intent was to have fun not hurt your feelings.

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Stubbly_Dooright

I am sure you will enjoy it, watch the movies too along with the comedy series.

I'd say closer to Reno 911 but not as documentary like.

The characters are so well developed, better then most comedy series, we are huge fans! Make sure to watch Swear net the movie! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

There isn't a better drunk portrayed than Mr. Lahey, or a better dumb person then Ricky, or Bubbles ( the coke bottle glasses) who you expect to be the resident retard is really the voice of reason with a twist. Randy Bo bandy or randers as he is called is my favorite. Triny and Lucy, Barb, and Sam, ( looks smells and acts like Bigfoot) and J- rock portrays the best wanna be white rapper ever. This is on netflixs if you have it.

I have been finding ways, but I will try. And yes, I noticed the subtle notes of the series. Thanks for cluing me in to this. :tu:

It's been awhile since I posted this so why not? It's a perfect fit.

Dopamine Jackpot! Science of pleasure:

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=axrywDP9Ii0

Robert Sapolsky, professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University, compares dopamine levels in monkeys and humans. Sapolsky argues that in both, "Dopamine is not about pleasure, it's about the anticipation of pleasure. It's about the pursuit of happiness." Unlike monkeys however, humans "keep those dopamine levels up for decades and decades waiting for the reward."

You know, I always felt that was part of the fun when something is coming up. Like Christmas day, or a show or concert I'll be attending. That kind of thing.

The thing is, when it's over, it's a huge let down.

So, in a sense, I can see a point I might see you may have here.

But we all can have our own ways of looking at life fully. ;):D

:( blocked in my country

I see that a lot, when there are things that are on another country's server. That's a shame. I do find it hilarious.

13404358_130515143000.jpg

I think someone needs a band-aid for their ego.

I almost picked those up the other day. To just because....................... ;):devil:

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Davros of Skaro

You know, I always felt that was part of the fun when something is coming up. Like Christmas day, or a show or concert I'll be attending. That kind of thing.

The thing is, when it's over, it's a huge let down.

So, in a sense, I can see a point I might see you may have here.

But we all can have our own ways of looking at life fully. ;):D

Do you see your blackened words?

Religion is not Christmas day, or a concert that's over, and on to the next event.

Religion has the reward you cannot prove that you get. The maybe makes you believe through the Holy Dopamine Spirit which makes nonsense make sense by default.

What was meant for learning is made into a trap which is the same for any addiction.

Do you get it?

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Stubbly_Dooright

Do you see your blackened words?

Religion is not Christmas day, or a concert that's over, and on to the next event.

Religion has the reward you cannot prove that you get. The maybe makes you believe through the Holy Dopamine Spirit which makes nonsense make sense by default.

What was meant for learning is made into a trap which is the same for any addiction.

Do you get it?

Actually, and a :tu: for doing that, yes, I see them. I kind of made a point, but I failed to speak more. Maybe not at other religions or beliefs not my own, but there are times my belief does do that. And it's weird, ( in such a good way. :D ) it's last longer. Sometimes I wonder, if it opens my eyes more than in the past in that ................... looking forward feeling.

So, yeah, good point. :yes:

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back to earth

NOT going to continue this with a person I reluctantly now consider a hater, liar and a troll From now on the only time i reply to you is to correct lies you promote. I have had you on ignore for some time

More fibs ? If you had me on ignore , whats with the pages of responses to me . Really, if you are going to tell lies here, at least tell ones that cant be easily busted .

And now that you are busted .... you have 'finished with me' - how handy for you ( except to respond to what I write ... how is this any different from last time you promised to ignore me ) .

but am forced to respond to the personal and vindictive comments you make every day

No one is forcing you to do anything ..... you are just p***ed as I got on your tail and stuck to it and you couldnt shake me off with all the tricks you tried on everyone else.

Could well be confusing you with another conversation, I have had a couple of similar and related ones and if you jumped into such a conversation then quite probably this is correct. but the same deal/ response is applicable. You got from your experiment what you expected and so did i.

I did ! ... but you expected to fail ? ? ?

I continue to help people where i can with a very real and proven abilty to find things.

Like that woman's car keys ? That got exposed here too, and not by me, by a few people actually.

You just radiate negativity, ridicule, and indeed a real personal animosity which i cant understand. Does it come from fear , envy, inner doubt ? Who knows,and I no longer care

Look into your self to find why you are as you are.

I do ... but to balance my subjective view, I take on what reasonable people observe about me as well .

I suggest you look at your all of a sudden , vehement (well, for you ) catharsis here , and what brought it on , perhaps showing that the King's new clothes , are not clothes at all ?

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back to earth

13404358_130515143000.jpg

I think someone needs a band-aid for their ego.

Great product choice

scarlett-flounces-out-o.gif

tumblr_lsbb0f0zMt1qd6j15.jpg

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back to earth

I guess you are just not able to stop yourself making personal judgements based on a total lack of knowledge and understanding. Imagine me posting on PM the problems your husband must have with you, given your perosnality traits and think how you would respond. . It wouldn't occur to me to do that whatever my personal opinion. And if it did i wouldnt do it because it would be rude hurtful and personal You present a nice face sherapy but it is two faced.

Are you seeking approval and validation from others? Why do you need it?. MAybe its a consequence of not being caned enough as a kid and growing up with a lack of respect for others :devil: . yeah that is a deliberate pay back for your comments about my childhood. i might be nice/kind hearted and well mannered, but i wont be bullied or misrepresented.

How about i start posting about how I think your real relationship with your kids and hubbie must be based on your persona on UM. I'd probably be utterly wrong and it would probably hurt you , but heck why should that stop me for a second?

Except you were the one that started saying personal stuff about your own family, you were the one that said how patient your wife was with you, how she said you think different and a whole range of other stuff, you even gave intimate details about your own mothers funeral, you are the one that virtually called her a hermit (crab) you are the one that said she likes doing the laundry , you you you ! .... and if someone else refers to that you get all indignant and threatened to post your own uninformed judgements on another's private life .....

You are a strange fellow Walker ( but you steam a good ham )

tumblr_mo26ygvVvP1r669guo1_500.jpg

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Sherapy

:( blocked in my country

Oh no, you missed a funny skit!!!!

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Davros of Skaro

Actually, and a :tu: for doing that, yes, I see them. I kind of made a point, but I failed to speak more. Maybe not at other religions or beliefs not my own, but there are times my belief does do that. And it's weird, ( in such a good way. :D ) it's last longer. Sometimes I wonder, if it opens my eyes more than in the past in that ................... looking forward feeling.

So, yeah, good point. :yes:

Good! I had to make sure you understand. Your immortal soul depends on it.

That feeling is a paranormal event which is proof that it's true. Just tuck it in the recess of your Brain so the powers of evil disguised as reason cannot take it away from you.

The love of the Holy Dopamine Spirit is just the tip of the Holy Iceberg. Just wait till the wonders you will experience when reborn in a new body.

Meanwhile surround yourself with others that believe the same thing.

200_s.gif

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Mr Walker

More fibs ? If you had me on ignore , whats with the pages of responses to me . Really, if you are going to tell lies here, at least tell ones that cant be easily busted .

And now that you are busted .... you have 'finished with me' - how handy for you ( except to respond to what I write ... how is this any different from last time you promised to ignore me ) .

No one is forcing you to do anything ..... you are just p***ed as I got on your tail and stuck to it and you couldnt shake me off with all the tricks you tried on everyone else.

I did ! ... but you expected to fail ? ? ?

Like that woman's car keys ? That got exposed here too, and not by me, by a few people actually.

I do ... but to balance my subjective view, I take on what reasonable people observe about me as well .

I suggest you look at your all of a sudden , vehement (well, for you ) catharsis here , and what brought it on , perhaps showing that the King's new clothes , are not clothes at all ?

Exposed? (do you mean her wallet) or another instance with keys? No people can believe as they like. Her daughter since asked me to find a lost gold medallion after hearing how i found the wallet but i was only able to give a picture of its location not precisely where it was. I told her It was in a big bag at the bottom of a wardrobe.That seemed to ring a bell as she later told me she had put in in an old army duffel bag before moving house. But the house is in Darwin and she is on the other side of the continent so she has to check it out. i also told her i thought the other people in the hoise might have taken it and she said that would not surprise her. i don't hold out much hope she will get it back but its a nugget her grandfather found prospecting in WA so it would be nice.

I am slow to get annoyed but your comments are constantly, personal, vindictive, and nasty. It is logical that they would annoy me, especially when they are totally untrue and thus damage my reputation . It makes me ask what it is about some people which creates this psychological need to put down and attack others.

Ps yes i expected to fail I explained that in my responses if not to you then to the original poster That sort of test doesn't work I need to be close to the person involved and there needs to be a genuine strong feeling for the lost object. ( explained all tha t) But i said i would give it a go, without much expectation. And from my memory i got half of it right but i might be confusing you with another. There have been a few. Was yours asking me about some sort of toy? or the can of drink? I got the toy half right and got nothing much at all on the can of drink.

And i was able to second guess your own little fake test of the fighter aircraft. (or wasn't that you either? )

Edited by Mr Walker

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psyche101

I think freedom of religion is a cornerstone of any civilized society, it is when those religious beliefs impact on others in a negative or violent way that their belief in their chosen deity becomes a problem. No this isn't a lambasting aimed towards the muslim religion, violence in the name of a religion is not isolated to that secular group. I have nothing but respect for those who chose to dedicate their lives to a religion, in a peaceful manner, yes including muslims, I know many who are wonderful, kind and caring people, totally removed from the extremist ideology.

I personally do not subscribe to any religion, and I am a proponent of science, I do not believe that 'he who increases knowledge increases sorrow', I believe it equips us to make our own decision, and mine is rather agnostic in it's make-up I suppose. But that is my decision and I would expect the same equality and respect as I give to those who are religious.

After all it is down to the individual, and as I said, as long as it does not affect the lives of those around them negatively, then long may they continue! Of course I spend time on these forums, and get involved sometimes with religious discussions where of course my opinion is voiced, it isn't about hypocrisy with what I wrote above, it is about debate from a certain point of view, where we often see many of the secular members engage in debate equally from their point of view too.

While some find purpose to their lives through relgion, as a whole, it impoverishes society, so I feel it is damaging to maintain ancient dogma in modern times. It is after all a different world today. Religion is redundant, is should reside in historical record, not everyday life.

When you consider the flaws we have noted from the Bible, one must realise that no other publication in history gets so many second chances. I feel that indicates an agenda, and not a beneficial one to society.

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psyche101

What I consider as an unfortunate state of things, is that you're right. The one nation under God thing, and sayings on our money, not just the paper money, but on the coins too, and this is something that maybe actually a recent thing. If I remember correctly, it's something that occurred during the fifties in the height of the cold war to disassociate ourselves from a threatening regimes like the U.S.S.R. and it's Atheist aura. It didn't found this country like some like to believe.

And because of this, there is a constant crossing of the lines from the extreme religious and the line that I do believe that separates church and state.

But, I have to remember, because of certain freedoms of my country, that even though ever so often we come across the billboards of some religious saying, or the wondering prosetylizer, you can ignore the billboard or come across an anti-religious one rebutting the first billboard, or tell the prosetylizer you are not interested and get them arrested if they persist to the point of in threatening your life.

But it's still rampant, and yes, it's the ones in office and in laws, that are crossing the lines that might hurt. I think that Bush junior has cause certain law changes and such, that has hurt those freedoms, ( I'm thinking of the jump back on women's rights ) that is the big danger, I feel.

But fortunately, there are those who then make changes that atleast is giving women the jump forward to, I feel. ( or reversing the damage done before ) If I remember correctly. :yes:

Going back to where I remember Bush Sr. saying that, I think it was during his run for a second term. ( Of course, that didn't work out for him, did it? :devil: ) I also remember him before a group of people ( at an airport, if I remember that correctly ) and I remember one individual in the group asking him to explain of all of the things he promised the first round of his term of office, and all he answered back, was that he and his people had plans of what they want to do if he gets re-elected.

Thankfully, this is still a country that still can get together and make those decisions that show how we feel about that! ;)

Anyhow, and I'm considering the group think of this country ( teamwork, and I see this in every free country, (( and possibly non-free ones too )) and it's positive results ) and we still have ways to counter attack certain negative harmful laws, some bring up to enforce.

Unfortunately, it might take a while. :(

But again, ................................. I feel you're still right, Psyche. *shrugs*

I was just pointing out to DieChecker in another thread that many states do not even allow one to take a seat in congress unless they are religious and recognise God. That seems to be very much limiting the decisions people are allowed to make, and brainwashing them into Religion.

With relgion permeating every aspect of life, and constantly insinuating that those who are not religious are bad people, society has little chance to stride forward.

I wonder, if man was to have risen on evidence as opposed to simple observation, would we have relgion at all?

As Dawkins says, religious people are Atheists too, they do not believe in the Hindu Gods, or the Roman Gods, or any other versions of relgion. Atheism just goes one step further.

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