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Emmisal

The God Debate - Is it really about evidence?

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psyche101

The BTE religion of nature ( not worship but ) appreciation .

[ aside from what religion certain other person ascribes to me here , I feel an affinity with the sated aims of life from Zoroastrianism ; the aim of life is to have a good life and enjoy it ( not for fear, guilt, supplication, etc ) ]

I think I have heard of the BTE Religion.

You replace the wine and wafers with beer and jerky don't you? And mass with BBQ?

If you mean kids ...... certainly ! Its a great place for kids ! Unfortunately we a bit short on them at the moment .

a diversion ...... some years back ; I am driving along an internal road on the property and I see two of the boys , a bout 7 years old, running along the road 'up to something' (I can tell by the look and body language) so I stop and

"Wasup?"

" A snake is chasing us ! "

"What ?"

" A giant black snake, we saw it down the river and we ran away and it chased us all the way up to community house ! "

"What ? All the way from the river, across the bottom flat, over the road , across the front lawn and up to the house ?"

"yeah ... and when I rang my dad ... "

"You stopped at the verandah and used the phone while being chased ?"

"Yeah ! I wanted to ring Dad and tell him ."

"That you being chased by a snake ."

"yeah."

< I look up the road >

" Look out ! Here it comes, Quick, jump in the car ! " (they do and we take off with them kneeling on the back seat looking out the rear window ) " I think he is gaining on us ! "

So now we are zooming across the property at high speed, bouncing all over the place ..... drive up the back hill to their house. They get out and run inside and go to the windows and peer out nervously .

Father ; " Whats going on ?"

Me : We got chased by a black snake ... in the car ... alll the way from the river ! :w00t: "

" Hmmmm .... actually, I wanted to talk to you about some of those stories you have been telling the kids ."

"O - oh "

:w00t: Awesome story mate!! Thanks for sharing :D

Yeah, I have two rugrats, 11 and 13. That looks just like what they need, open space and no Wi Fi ;) I usually pack them up with the tent and sleeping bags if we go anywhere :D

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psyche101

yes, well , he only needs his brain to fit through, remember .

Yeah but I hear.....

15-big-head-photo-manipulation-by-arjan.jpg

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psyche101

:( blocked in my country

Funny that - ME TOO!!!

:lol:

I reckon we make a vid when I get down south, and we block it from the rest of the world MUahahahaha :devil:

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Mr Walker

Except you were the one that started saying personal stuff about your own family, you were the one that said how patient your wife was with you, how she said you think different and a whole range of other stuff, you even gave intimate details about your own mothers funeral, you are the one that virtually called her a hermit (crab) you are the one that said she likes doing the laundry , you you you ! .... and if someone else refers to that you get all indignant and threatened to post your own uninformed judgements on another's private life .....

You are a strange fellow Walker ( but you steam a good ham )

tumblr_mo26ygvVvP1r669guo1_500.jpg

if you cant tell the difference between positive supportive comments, and ridicule and put down,then there is a problem. And it is not a one off, but a pattern of posting behaviour with many personal comments about me, my teaching, my parents and now my wife. . I have no objection to personal comments where they are reasonable neutral or non abusive, although my personal preference is to address opinions and arguments rather than peoples characters. I don't know anyone on UM other than via their posts and it would be wrong to make attacks on the their character or their relationships just from what i get from their posts That goes both ways. Sherapy talks a lot about her relationships, good and bad between her self and her family members i have no problem with that, and her honesty ( And i am assuming it is honest ) is commendable Does that make them a legitimate target for my personal commentary and observations? Not in my opinion, which is what i was saying about NOT commenting on them. It would be a very easy and tempting way to respond, but wrong and self defeating. .

I don't understand the motivation or nature of such people. Sometimes i suspect it is almost a desire to shut up people with differing views because those views threaten them. We have seen this done to a number of posters on this forum over the last decade. . When they lose an argument on logic, evidence or reason, they try to win the debate by destroying the credibility of the poster . Sometimes i think is just a streak of nastiness and sometimes i think it is to bolster a low self esteem.

.

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psyche101

No it isnt because morality and ethics, when codified BECOME religion in practice and belief That is how books like the bible evolved When you do something because of an inner value morality or belief you are creating a religious form.

So how do you explain pedo priests in every denomination? The Quran with the Hadith? throughout history? From it's inceptions to today, religious hurts people, 2,000 years is more than sufficient to codify laws of God which abhor these actions, yet here we are in modern times.

Too many people see all religion as like the christian form but it can be ANY expression of inner belief from gaean to pagan/ druidic.

I agree totally, all relgion is well redundant, some more so than others.

Even environmentalism is a form of religion if it comes from belief of inner values and not from proven facts and logic. People DO NOT respond best to logic and knowledge. They respond more strongly to belief and emotion because these are INNER drivers . And given we cant eliminate this without changing the nature of cognition the best we can do is shape and form our beliefs into the most constructive ones possible

No, it is self preservation. And that is how the American Indians got relgion too from what the fossil record tells me.

A good person who ids good because the y believ in goodness is a religous person. it comes as part of th enature of human slef areness in tha t we know good form evil and we now consequence over time Unless we are a socioath we CANNOT act without an inner mental feedback loop sometimes known as a conscience.

Goodness comes from responsibility and awareness, there are certain benefits form benevolence too.

Nothing to do with anhy imagined divine being or which God one subscribes to. It is part of our evolution. With goodness comes cooperation, with co operation comes surplus, with surplus comes down time, with down time, we seek out enjoyable pursuits.

Ask your self why murder is wrong. if you eventually come back to a belief driven reason, then you have a form of religious driver. If you come back to a response like its against the law or i might get punished if caught, then you do not have a religious or spiritual based thinking. If your answer is that it is wrong to harm another human being ,take that back further. just WHY do you believe this to be the case.

It i s not so much that only religious people are moral That s not true but morality ethics etc in humans are constructs of self ware belief So is religion, and thus the two are inextricably linked.

I believe murder is wrong because it is murder, not a community decision. If we had to bring back the gallows to shock people into behaving, I would be OK with that. Pedos and killers deserve no less. They have forfeited their right to belong to society. A murder might kill me, leaving my children with nobody to look after them or a murderer might attack one of my children, and even if I kill that murderer in return, it will not bring back my children. I am aware, and can understand this much, that makes not wanting murder to be akin to self preservation again. I do not want murder around because it can affect me greatly and adversely. It has nothing to do with some namby pamby belief system, it is wrong, and people get hurt, and you cannot fix that. Prevention is better than cure in that case.

A truly religious person (not one who just professes belief) is ALWAYS driven by inner moral and ethical beliefs. A non religious person, or one who only professes belief, MAY have inner belief driven moralities and ethics, but also might not.

I am sure they convince themselves of such, that is how faith tends to work, but no, I do not believe that morality has anything to do with relgion, and such cannot be outright demonstrated. A religious person that murders and abortion clinic doctor for God has his moral and ethics twisted and distorted by relgion. It influences people to kill so it does not have a default morality setting.

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psyche101

Naturally occurring certainly that is current understanding. Artificially constructed? not so certainly

Would you like to explain the difference between a naturally generated wormhole with one from an artificial source and how that would differ greatly from a naturally occurring one.

Be careful here, I actually understand this subject reasonably well.

Again i don't expect belief. i am just responding truthfully to questions. Time will prove me right or wrong i have only used this to project my consciousness through so it might well be very small (there are few reference points in space) I just saw a rippling of the starry back ground entered through it nd came out in another part of the galaxy.

Time ;) That's cute. I doubt we will be announcing wormholes in this century.

my wife is the most wonderful and beautiful woman in the world She, unlike me is a total believer and has been a fundamentalist creationist christian since she was about 10 years old with a total, absolute, unshakeable belief driven conviction. I disagree with her on this, being an evolutionist, but we rub along.

She dead set sounds like a gem and you should be proud of her.

Also might well explain your "divine" discussions methinks.............

When God shows up in your backyard for those afternoon chats, I hope you tell him what a bang up top notch job he did there.

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psyche101

Not responding to bTE so not sure what he is referring to But yes i know you are Australian I just write as i write. There are many readers of any post. There are may different 'Australias " I give my perception understanding and statistically based opinions on it, as on everything.

Cannot be bothered to go back and look for it, but in one particular post it did sound very much like you thought I was from another country. I honestly got the very same impression. All cleared up now I guess.

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psyche101

I guess you are just not able to stop yourself making personal judgements based on a total lack of knowledge and understanding.

If you judge your friends for passing judgment on you, you're not only judging yourself you're judging your friends for judging you. And that would be using bad judgment.

Mike Brady :rofl:

I heard that Johnny Bravo reference Sheri :D

Imagine me posting on PM the problems your husband must have with you, given your perosnality traits and think how you would respond. . It wouldn't occur to me to do that whatever my personal opinion. And if it did i wouldnt do it because it would be rude hurtful and personal You present a nice face sherapy but it is two faced.

I reckon most of us would love to have to suffer the problems Sheri might create!! Two Faced? I wouldn't be upset about a train wreck like that in my life!!! :w00t:

Behind that pretty face is a wise lady who makes some very informed decisions and participates in her community. You read about he affecting home parenting issues and getting involved, a go getter, smart, and looks!! A total Happy Meal!

Edited by psyche101
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psyche101

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Mr Walker

So how do you explain pedo priests in every denomination? The Quran with the Hadith? throughout history? From it's inceptions to today, religious hurts people, 2,000 years is more than sufficient to codify laws of God which abhor these actions, yet here we are in modern times.

I agree totally, all relgion is well redundant, some more so than others.

No, it is self preservation. And that is how the American Indians got relgion too from what the fossil record tells me.

Goodness comes from responsibility and awareness, there are certain benefits form benevolence too.

Nothing to do with anhy imagined divine being or which God one subscribes to. It is part of our evolution. With goodness comes cooperation, with co operation comes surplus, with surplus comes down time, with down time, we seek out enjoyable pursuits.

I believe murder is wrong because it is murder, not a community decision. If we had to bring back the gallows to shock people into behaving, I would be OK with that. Pedos and killers deserve no less. They have forfeited their right to belong to society. A murder might kill me, leaving my children with nobody to look after them or a murderer might attack one of my children, and even if I kill that murderer in return, it will not bring back my children. I am aware, and can understand this much, that makes not wanting murder to be akin to self preservation again. I do not want murder around because it can affect me greatly and adversely. It has nothing to do with some namby pamby belief system, it is wrong, and people get hurt, and you cannot fix that. Prevention is better than cure in that case.

I am sure they convince themselves of such, that is how faith tends to work, but no, I do not believe that morality has anything to do with relgion, and such cannot be outright demonstrated. A religious person that murders and abortion clinic doctor for God has his moral and ethics twisted and distorted by relgion. It influences people to kill so it does not have a default morality setting.

You avoided the one critical question. WHY is the unlawful killing of another human being wrong? Why is it wrong for one person to kill another WITHOUT community assent? Why does community assent make it ethical? What basic beliefs are driving you and your opinions Why is it sometimes right and moral/ethical for one person to kill another or for a community to kill those it chooses to. If a community agrees to kill the unborn the young or the very elderly to improve the community, is that right or wrong according to your beliefs (it doesn't matter what answers you give as there are no right and wrong answers when it comes to beliefs , but all human actions at heart are driven by what we believe in, from what we chose to eat, to whether we would die (or kill) for our country.

I am much tougher than you. In an ideal world would execute or lock away for life EVERY person who was unable to control their behaviours and showed them selves to be a danger to others. They might be offered other alternatives like chemical controls in some cases. I don't understand why any society allows those who abuse and harm the weak and defenceless to walk free among us. But that is just me and i am also a realist. In reality we need much tougher sanctions and penalties,. even if short of death, because guilt might not be proven. beyond all doubt.

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Mr Walker

If you judge your friends for passing judgment on you, you're not only judging yourself you're judging your friends for judging you. And that would be using bad judgment.

Mike Brady :rofl:

I heard that Johnny Bravo reference Sheri :D

I reckon most of us would love to have to suffer the problems Sheri might create!! Two Faced? I wouldn't be upset about a train wreck like that in my life!!! :w00t:

Behind that pretty face is a wise lady who makes some very informed decisions and participates in her community. You read about he affecting home parenting issues and getting involved, a go getter, smart, and looks!! A total Happy Meal!

People on um don't know me well enough to pass any judgements just as i don't know them It is Ok to judge opinions beliefs views etc but NOT OK to judge people.

I have made a judgement on sherapy based on her posts, but i have also acknowledged that is unreasonable and unfair, because i don't know her as a person. I have asked her and others many times to explain why they use personal commentary, and attacks like ridicule, sarcasm, and belittlement, as public pressure , but have never received a reply.

OK " I don't believe you can know god, and i am sure you are mistaken in thinking that you do."

Not ok. " Because you claim to know god and persist in this, despite me showing you that gods cannot exist, you are clearly a deluded/ crazy/ unintelligent /and uneducated fool.

Ok " I disagree strongly with your opinion that corporal punishment in a loving environment is good for children. I have never found this to be so."

NOT OK 'The beatings you received from your parents, who were obviously violent and angry people, have left you unable to think rationally, and have warped your own attitude to children. You should never be allowed to parent or teach children with ideas like that. YOU must be a violent angry person, and because your parents treated you very badly, you must have issues with them (or hate them) ." etc

Such opinions are garbage, because they are misinformed and based on the individual perception, beliefs and values, of the person making the judgement.. ANd usually they totally disregard my factual corrections of their errors in assessment. For example i will explain that my parents loved me enough to die for me, and indeed sacrificed a lot for all of us. They NEVER lost their temper and they disciplined the behaviour, not the child, explaining this clearly to us. we were punished for breaking well established and understood rules, and only after explanation and reflection . Their children and grandchildren all grew up well adjusted, law abiding, respected and successful members of society None has ever divorced or had an affair. None has ever committed a criminal offence None take drugs other than alcohol and none smoke . More significantly, none has ever struck another person in anger. And every one of them, from me aged 64 to the youngest great grand child, loved and respected my parents until the day each one died.

And still, despite such explanations, irrational prejudice prevails. and my parents and i are subject to abuse and vilification. because we DARE to believe that parents who fail to effectively discipline children (however this is done out of love) and teach them self discipline, are both abusing their child, but also creating real problems for that child and society. It is a form of child abuse not to give a child the discipline and skills to behave and control their behaviour in public and private, because, in the end that will result in great harm to the person and those around them. They will hit someone in anger, cheat on a loved one, or just drive unsafely when angry or frustrated .

Instead of stopping at debating the issue, it too often becomes a personal attack on the holder of the opinion.

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

So I am not on ignore now ?

I got that from you ended sentences below with question marks and assume you now want me to respond ?

OK.

Exposed? (do you mean her wallet) or another instance with keys? No people can believe as they like. Her daughter since asked me to find a lost gold medallion after hearing how i found the wallet but i was only able to give a picture of its location not precisely where it was. I told her It was in a big bag at the bottom of a wardrobe.That seemed to ring a bell as she later told me she had put in in an old army duffel bag before moving house. But the house is in Darwin and she is on the other side of the continent so she has to check it out. i also told her i thought the other people in the hoise might have taken it and she said that would not surprise her. i don't hold out much hope she will get it back but its a nugget her grandfather found prospecting in WA so it would be nice.

Well, that was nice of you. A gold nugget eh ?

That reminds me of a story of my own ... < ahem >

Once a friend lost a medallion / necklace, they had returned from a camping trip recently and had to leave early because of flash flooding, a couple of weeks later they realised they couldnt find the necklace. I offered to psychic view it. I saw it in a remote location caught in a tree with flood flotsam. I asked her if she actually bought it back from camping and she was not sure. Unfortunate;y the camp site was 700 km away, and who knows how far downstream it ended up .

Pity, as if she had lost it locally and I had seen it somewhere nearby and she retrieved it, my powers would have been verified.

I am slow to get annoyed but your comments are constantly, personal, vindictive, and nasty. It is logical that they would annoy me, especially when they are totally untrue and thus damage my reputation . It makes me ask what it is about some people which creates this psychological need to put down and attack others.

I am sorry .....

guilty-smiley-face.gif

..... I had no idea you had a reputation here .to uphold

Ps yes i expected to fail I explained that in my responses if not to you then to the original poster That sort of test doesn't work I need to be close to the person involved and there needs to be a genuine strong feeling for the lost object. ( explained all tha t) But i said i would give it a go, without much expectation. And from my memory i got half of it right but i might be confusing you with another. There have been a few. Was yours asking me about some sort of toy? or the can of drink? I got the toy half right and got nothing much at all on the can of drink.

Hmmm .... now let's see ..... was it the jet, the car keys, the purse, a toy, WWII planes, a can of drink , ..... Coke Zero ! ... ... a bread box ..... ?

I am sure you will work it out, as you assured me you have a good memory and have learnt to distinguish real occurances from drams, astral travel, distant viewing ..... reading old science fiction stories ... episodes of Star Trek, etc .

And i was able to second guess your own little fake test of the fighter aircraft. (or wasn't that you either? )

'Fighter aircraft' .... who, me ???

No .... ' I said I had a 'previous life' dream about being a fighter pilot , if that's what you mean ?

:innocent:

Edited by back to earth

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back to earth

I think I have heard of the BTE Religion.

You replace the wine and wafers with beer and jerky don't you? And mass with BBQ?

:w00t: Awesome story mate!! Thanks for sharing :D

Yeah, I have two rugrats, 11 and 13. That looks just like what they need, open space and no Wi Fi ;) I usually pack them up with the tent and sleeping bags if we go anywhere :D

Great ! ... and a nice campfire :) .... " Say , you boys know what a wild Vixerine is ? "

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Sherapy

If you judge your friends for passing judgment on you, you're not only judging yourself you're judging your friends for judging you. And that would be using bad judgment.

Mike Brady :rofl:

I heard that Johnny Bravo reference Sheri :D

I reckon most of us would love to have to suffer the problems Sheri might create!! Two Faced? I wouldn't be upset about a train wreck like that in my life!!! :w00t:

Behind that pretty face is a wise lady who makes some very informed decisions and participates in her community. You read about he affecting home parenting issues and getting involved, a go getter, smart, and looks!! A total Happy Meal!

Ah shucks thanks Psyche. :)

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back to earth

I think I have heard of the BTE Religion.

You replace the wine and wafers with beer and jerky don't you? And mass with BBQ?

:w00t: Awesome story mate!! Thanks for sharing :D

Yeah, I have two rugrats, 11 and 13. That looks just like what they need, open space and no Wi Fi ;) I usually pack them up with the tent and sleeping bags if we go anywhere :D

I think I have heard of the BTE Religion.

You replace the wine and wafers with beer and jerky don't you? And mass with BBQ?

Oh, I missed this bit :

BTE has studied many religions , practised some as well , and worked with them , usually the less mainstream ones . I was even in 'The Religion of the Month Club' , back in the 70s . In the more recent distant past , I had been ordained as a Priest ( ' less mainstream' again ) . But that was in a type of Gnostic church - meaning people had direct , whatever ... with whatever, and didnt need a priest to do it , it was more like a chaplin's role I suppose. I was the chairperson of a Baha'i Spiritual Assembly in the past too , sort of like clergy, but instead they have an elected body of 9 that runs on a business model , again here, any God / whatever / person connection was direct.

I retired from all that some time back, now I am a hermit, and loving it ! ... a lot of the Pagan stuff was great ! Outside celebrations, seasonal activities, maypoles are fun, a whole range of stuff actually . Probably a lot of what many would consider the best aspects 'religion' or at least spirituality can offer.

No wine, only wafers are around the rather good ice cream from the gelati shop in town . No beer either , I could BBQ some marinated Greek lamb softened in yoghurt so it makes a crust around the outside ( I used to be a chef / ' snack tempter' )

and no jerky

but I have a resident turkey ( he has a mangled leg, so I let him hang out and feed him )

201211021646_4408_Australian_Brush-turkey_-_Kim_Wormald.jpg

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back to earth

if you cant tell the difference between positive supportive comments, and ridicule and put down,then there is a problem. And it is not a one off, but a pattern of posting behaviour with many personal comments about me, my teaching, my parents and now my wife. . I have no objection to personal comments where they are reasonable neutral or non abusive, although my personal preference is to address opinions and arguments rather than peoples characters. I don't know anyone on UM other than via their posts and it would be wrong to make attacks on the their character or their relationships just from what i get from their posts That goes both ways. Sherapy talks a lot about her relationships, good and bad between her self and her family members i have no problem with that, and her honesty ( And i am assuming it is honest ) is commendable Does that make them a legitimate target for my personal commentary and observations? Not in my opinion, which is what i was saying about NOT commenting on them. It would be a very easy and tempting way to respond, but wrong and self defeating. .

I don't understand the motivation or nature of such people. Sometimes i suspect it is almost a desire to shut up people with differing views because those views threaten them. We have seen this done to a number of posters on this forum over the last decade. . When they lose an argument on logic, evidence or reason, they try to win the debate by destroying the credibility of the poster . Sometimes i think is just a streak of nastiness and sometimes i think it is to bolster a low self esteem.

.

Are you complaining to me about Sherapy now ? Or what ? :unsure2:

:no:

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Sherapy

People on um don't know me well enough to pass any judgements just as i don't know them It is Ok to judge opinions beliefs views etc but NOT OK to judge people.

I have made a judgement on sherapy based on her posts, but i have also acknowledged that is unreasonable and unfair, because i don't know her as a person. I have asked her and others many times to explain why they use personal commentary, and attacks like ridicule, sarcasm, and belittlement, as public pressure , but have never received a reply.

OK " I don't believe you can know god, and i am sure you are mistaken in thinking that you do."

Not ok. " Because you claim to know god and persist in this, despite me showing you that gods cannot exist, you are clearly a deluded/ crazy/ unintelligent /and uneducated fool.

Ok " I disagree strongly with your opinion that corporal punishment in a loving environment is good for children. I have never found this to be so."

NOT OK 'The beatings you received from your parents, who were obviously violent and angry people, have left you unable to think rationally, and have warped your own attitude to children. You should never be allowed to parent or teach children with ideas like that. YOU must be a violent angry person, and because your parents treated you very badly, you must have issues with them (or hate them) ." etc

Such opinions are garbage, because they are misinformed and based on the individual perception, beliefs and values, of the person making the judgement.. ANd usually they totally disregard my factual corrections of their errors in assessment. For example i will explain that my parents loved me enough to die for me, and indeed sacrificed a lot for all of us. They NEVER lost their temper and they disciplined the behaviour, not the child, explaining this clearly to us. we were punished for breaking well established and understood rules, and only after explanation and reflection . Their children and grandchildren all grew up well adjusted, law abiding, respected and successful members of society None has ever divorced or had an affair. None has ever committed a criminal offence None take drugs other than alcohol and none smoke . More significantly, none has ever struck another person in anger. And every one of them, from me aged 64 to the youngest great grand child, loved and respected my parents until the day each one died.

And still, despite such explanations, irrational prejudice prevails. and my parents and i are subject to abuse and vilification. because we DARE to believe that parents who fail to effectively discipline children (however this is done out of love) and teach them self discipline, are both abusing their child, but also creating real problems for that child and society. It is a form of child abuse not to give a child the discipline and skills to behave and control their behaviour in public and private, because, in the end that will result in great harm to the person and those around them. They will hit someone in anger, cheat on a loved one, or just drive unsafely when angry or frustrated .

Instead of stopping at debating the issue, it too often becomes a personal attack on the holder of the opinion.

MW, you are accusing people of things that have not been said to you.

And no one is attacking your wife, I personally think she is a saint for putting up with you, you are a handful and then some on UM.

Edited by Sherapy

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back to earth

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back to earth

.

I am much tougher than you. In an ideal world would execute or lock away for life EVERY person who was unable to control their behaviours and showed them selves to be a danger to others.

You would ? Thats a very generalised and harsh judgement ! :td:

Without any qualifying the level of punishment with the level of crime .... you would execute someone clumsy that bumped people over ?

What is your prefered method of execution ?

They might be offered other alternatives like chemical controls

I'll take that then instead ! I would really chill out on the right 'chemical controls' ;) - whatchya got ?

in some cases. I don't understand why any society allows those who abuse and harm the weak and defenceless to walk free among us.

Usual two answers that are basically the same ; money and / or power . ... wait ? I thought you supported your government ?

But that is just me and i am also a realist. In reality we need much tougher sanctions and penalties,. even if short of death, because guilt might not be proven. beyond all doubt.

Beyond reasonable doubt ... not all doubt , you have to try to retain reason Walker .

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back to earth

People on um don't know me well enough to pass any judgements just as i don't know them It is Ok to judge opinions beliefs views etc but NOT OK to judge people.

I have made a judgement on sherapy based on her posts, but i have also acknowledged that is unreasonable and unfair, because i don't know her as a person. I have asked her and others many times to explain why they use personal commentary, and attacks like ridicule, sarcasm, and belittlement, as public pressure , but have never received a reply.

But, you say you are well educated , and use logic and are familiar with philosophy ? I already tried to broach this subject with you but you ignored it.

Anyway, here ya go , this explains it all quiet well .... see which character you are most like in it ;)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1672/1672-h/1672-h.htm

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psyche101

You avoided the one critical question.

I really do not think I did at all. You want more detail is all. All you need do is ask.

WHY is the unlawful killing of another human being wrong?

Because a community relies on every member to pull their weight, nobody has the right to put a hole in a family or system for their own selfish desires. The word "community" sort of spells that out reall.

Why is it wrong for one person to kill another WITHOUT community assent?

For the same reasons listed above, some hold very important positions in the community, and just like an ecosystem, if part of that is removed, the entire structure can fail and rapidly.

Why does community assent make it ethical?

Because we have to decide together if an individual is valuable, if the killing was accidently, making them clumsy not evil, and because if a murderous person is within the community, odds are there will not be a community after a while, there will be a harem and slave labour.

What basic beliefs are driving you and your opinions

A sense of community and fair rights for the community as a whole.

Why is it sometimes right and moral/ethical for one person to kill another or for a community to kill those it chooses to.

It is only moral when the community will be bettered by the permanent removal of an individual that undermines said community.

If a community agrees to kill the unborn the young or the very elderly to improve the community, is that right or wrong according to your beliefs (it doesn't matter what answers you give as there are no right and wrong answers when it comes to beliefs , but all human actions at heart are driven by what we believe in, from what we chose to eat, to whether we would die (or kill) for our country.

Wrong, it does not improve the community., Wisdom and knowledge leads to better and faster practices. It also allows for those who are incapable of more difficult tasks to help out with more menial tasks allowing for specific tasks with greater yield to produce more for the community. There is no reason to kill an innocent person.

I am much tougher than you.

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In an ideal world would execute or lock away for life EVERY person who was unable to control their behaviours and showed them selves to be a danger to others.

No it would not, it would deploy learning practises and attribute certain skills to certain tasks. UNskilled people in the wrong position are the fault of the community leader. Therefore the leader should be replaced so the wisdoms from his failures can serve as a lesson.

They might be offered other alternatives like chemical controls in some cases.

For who - Pedos? I have a more permanent solution. Small lead ball placed in the left ear.

I don't understand why any society allows those who abuse and harm the weak and defenceless to walk free among us. But that is just me and i am also a realist. In reality we need much tougher sanctions and penalties,. even if short of death, because guilt might not be proven. beyond all doubt.

I would not vote against a death penalty to be reintroduced. Those who take advantage of the sick elderly and young have no place in society, and show they are not going to contribute, but cheat there way through life, nobody wants to be cheated, henceforth they lose their right to be part of a community, exile is not really an option, and we should not have to keep them alive indefinitely.

Those who harm us are not walking the street, last I heard Martin Bryant was rotting away in a jail Cell. Look what happened to Dennis Ferguson when he was released to the community. And not a tear shed for either of them.

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Silent Trinity

While some find purpose to their lives through relgion, as a whole, it impoverishes society, so I feel it is damaging to maintain ancient dogma in modern times. It is after all a different world today. Religion is redundant, is should reside in historical record, not everyday life.

When you consider the flaws we have noted from the Bible, one must realise that no other publication in history gets so many second chances. I feel that indicates an agenda, and not a beneficial one to society.

No arguments here, I feel that is is an antiquated tradition, on that does indeed have diminishing relevance in today's world, but I was mainly posting from the point of view of the personal choice of the individual, rather than the merits of religion itself, but as I said on that subject, and from my personal stand point, I agree with you whole heartedly!

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Stubbly_Dooright

Good! I had to make sure you understand. Your immortal soul depends on it.

That feeling is a paranormal event which is proof that it's true. Just tuck it in the recess of your Brain so the powers of evil disguised as reason cannot take it away from you.

The love of the Holy Dopamine Spirit is just the tip of the Holy Iceberg. Just wait till the wonders you will experience when reborn in a new body.

Meanwhile surround yourself with others that believe the same thing.

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I'm liking this, but give me time to explore it too. I have a bit of a :hmm: to it.

Then again, that's me a lot. :o ................... :w00t:

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Stubbly_Dooright

I was just pointing out to DieChecker in another thread that many states do not even allow one to take a seat in congress unless they are religious and recognise God. That seems to be very much limiting the decisions people are allowed to make, and brainwashing them into Religion.

With relgion permeating every aspect of life, and constantly insinuating that those who are not religious are bad people, society has little chance to stride forward.

I wonder, if man was to have risen on evidence as opposed to simple observation, would we have relgion at all?

As Dawkins says, religious people are Atheists too, they do not believe in the Hindu Gods, or the Roman Gods, or any other versions of relgion. Atheism just goes one step further.

Yeah, I see that and I am very <_< with it. I even said as much in GreenmansGod's new thread.

In which, it has to stop, in my feeling. How can we say we are a free country and we are open arms to everyone, when we end up ridiculing some of them, because of how we believe and how they believe? It's so hipocritical! :rolleyes: I kind of get numb, when watching what is going on with our politics.

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Liquid Gardens

I am much tougher than you. In an ideal world would execute or lock away for life EVERY person who was unable to control their behaviours and showed them selves to be a danger to others. They might be offered other alternatives like chemical controls in some cases.

I don't consider that 'tougher', I consider it weaker actually, like most mindless attempts to treat complex problems with simplistic solutions like this. The special powers you've claimed to have could be considered a danger to society, let's hope you are not on the receiving end of this simple solution you think is representative of an 'ideal world'.

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